Author Topic: Eccentric Strength Training on Increasing Strength, RFD, and Power  (Read 6781 times)

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TKXII

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Re: Eccentric Strength Training on Increasing Strength, RFD, and Power
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2013, 09:02:54 pm »
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Ok they weren't always dead but of I did sets of more than three reps too tired. But even in general I felt that the squats I did reduced my desire to jump.

As soon as I start adding airborne exercises, anything with jumping, the neural desire to jump came back. That's what I've struggled with.
"Performance during stretch-shortening cycle exercise is influenced by the visco-elastic properties of the muscle-tendon units. During stretching of an activated muscle, mechanical energy is absorbed in the tendon structures (tendon and aponeurosis) and this energy can subsequently be re-utilized if shortening of the muscle immediately follows the stretching. According to Biscotti (2000), 72% of the elastic energy restitution action comes from tendons, 28% - from contractile elements of muscles.

http://www.verkhoshansky.com/Portals/0/Presentations/Shock%20Method%20Plyometrics.pdf

T0ddday

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Re: Eccentric Strength Training on Increasing Strength, RFD, and Power
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2013, 09:24:53 am »
+1
Ok they weren't always dead but of I did sets of more than three reps too tired. But even in general I felt that the squats I did reduced my desire to jump.

As soon as I start adding airborne exercises, anything with jumping, the neural desire to jump came back. That's what I've struggled with.

Agree totally that squatting might kill your neural desire to jump....  But that doesn't matter you still have to jump.   There is a "dark-times" adaption that you have to go through.  It's the same thing you experience when you do two-a-days or get forced to strength train after killer track workouts (most track athletes have to get in the gym AFTER running when there is nothing you want to do less).   At first you suck.  In your case you will probably squat and then go jump and vertical jump like 15 inches because your legs feel heavy and slow.  But you will adapt.  You will eventually feel equal or almost better at jumping post-squatting.  That's when squatting will help your jumping.

Raptor

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Re: Eccentric Strength Training on Increasing Strength, RFD, and Power
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2013, 09:52:00 am »
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I agree with this, but obviously it depends on the amount of volume we're talking about.

I've had some very high jumps after going to the gym or doing track work... it's weird because you feel so tired yet you still jump high.

pelham32

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Re: Eccentric Strength Training on Increasing Strength, RFD, and Power
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2013, 12:29:50 pm »
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I agree with this, but obviously it depends on the amount of volume we're talking about.

I've had some very high jumps after going to the gym or doing track work... it's weird because you feel so tired yet you still jump high.

Ive also noticed this phenomenon...
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TKXII

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Re: Eccentric Strength Training on Increasing Strength, RFD, and Power
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2013, 01:37:23 pm »
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Yea I similarly gained 3'' in one night. I was doing mostly plyos and little lifting, vert maybe 32-33 running. I did squats jumps with 175lbs below parallel.
My quads were very sore the next day but I jumped literally 3'' higher than the day before when I tested on the same rim.


@t0dday - you're the first person who i've heard say that practicing jumping after lifting even if you're tired is beneficial. interesting . . . i dno
"Performance during stretch-shortening cycle exercise is influenced by the visco-elastic properties of the muscle-tendon units. During stretching of an activated muscle, mechanical energy is absorbed in the tendon structures (tendon and aponeurosis) and this energy can subsequently be re-utilized if shortening of the muscle immediately follows the stretching. According to Biscotti (2000), 72% of the elastic energy restitution action comes from tendons, 28% - from contractile elements of muscles.

http://www.verkhoshansky.com/Portals/0/Presentations/Shock%20Method%20Plyometrics.pdf

ian459

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Re: Eccentric Strength Training on Increasing Strength, RFD, and Power
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2013, 02:55:05 pm »
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I sometimes practice jumping after. But why don't you do some max effort jumps prior to strength workouts? That way, you'll be fired up when you start lifting.

Raptor

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Re: Eccentric Strength Training on Increasing Strength, RFD, and Power
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2013, 02:58:09 pm »
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That sounds good in theory, but in my particular case, whenever I did plyo work before squatting my squats have sucked big time.

The moment I stopped doing plyos, even in very low volumes (low box depth jumps 3x3, jump squats 3x3) before squatting I tied my PR in the squat with 352 lbs, a year after I set that.

AlexV

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Re: Eccentric Strength Training on Increasing Strength, RFD, and Power
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2013, 03:50:29 pm »
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squat with less intensity. leave yourself enough gas for the jumping drills.

most vert trainees really screw things up by wanting so much so soon.

Ahh Correct!

Similar to what I posted int the reverse transfer thread.  Follow a simple, long term approach to strength training.  Be patient with it.  And of course if dunking is your goal you must jump.  Jumping is SPP or practice for someone interested in dunking.

Lifting wihtout jumping to improve your dunks is like squatting without practicing football and expecting to be a better football player.  The key is the strength/general work should not be so intense that it interferes with the practice of your chosen sport (SPP)

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T0ddday

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Re: Eccentric Strength Training on Increasing Strength, RFD, and Power
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2013, 04:57:55 pm »
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@t0dday - you're the first person who i've heard say that practicing jumping after lifting even if you're tired is beneficial. interesting . . . i dno

I sometimes practice jumping after. But why don't you do some max effort jumps prior to strength workouts? That way, you'll be fired up when you start lifting.

Are you trying to get better at lifting or better at jumping?  You can't truly do max effort jumps AND max effort squats. 

When the squat potentiates your vertical is when you will see carryover between squatting and jumping.  Would you do tire yourself out doing all out sprints and then do weighted sled drags?  Would you tire yourself out doing a jump session and THEN put the weight belt on and doing resisted jumps.  Same for squats.  Move the big weight as fast as you can can in the squat rack.  Then go jump without the weight and jump faster/higher.  If you do a few max effort jumps you will have a better squat session but you won't get enough jumps in.  If you do enough max effort jumps then you will be fatigued and can't squat.... SO do a few max effort squats and get fired up to start jumping.   Or jump first and treat squats as an assistance exercise.

ian459

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Re: Eccentric Strength Training on Increasing Strength, RFD, and Power
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2013, 06:10:54 pm »
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What about practicing max effort jumping like how sprinters practice their sprints. If you can do two sessions a day, wouldn't max effort jumping in morning and weightlifting at night be better than combining them into one workout?

T0ddday

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Re: Eccentric Strength Training on Increasing Strength, RFD, and Power
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2013, 07:04:46 pm »
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What about practicing max effort jumping like how sprinters practice their sprints. If you can do two sessions a day, wouldn't max effort jumping in morning and weightlifting at night be better than combining them into one workout?

There is no universal rule as to how sprinters practice their sprints.  Some sprinters have even squatted before sprinting.  But that's neither here no there.   You are either squatting for potentiation/specific resistance or you are lifting as an accessory.

1)  If you are lifting as an accessory to your event (jumping or sprinting) then it should be done after jumping/sprinting so it doesn't interfere with the workout.   As to whether it's best to do it in the evening or not depends on the individual.   Weightlifting at night will allow for some recovery before lifting which may be desired.... but if you lift at say 8pm then it means that when the athlete gets to the track again at 6am he has had only 10 hours to recovery from lifting AND it might compromise sleep.   IMO the ideal schedule would be 6am track, 8am - small protein meal and 30 min rest, 9am weightlifting, 5pm easy tempo/mobility/massage/ice, 10pm sleep.    But certainly the most important thing is that you keep the accessory work after track/bounding.    Weightlifting as accessory work could involve deadlifts, GHRS, back extensions, volume squatting, etc. 

2) If you are lifting for potentiation then lifting can and should be done before the activity.  Squatting is not a great potention exercise for sprinters but it can be used for standing vertical jumps.   A single heavy deadlift can be used as potention for olympic lifters.   Sprinters use resisted running for potenetation/specific resistance.   Sprinters don 't perform heavy sled drags after they have done a hard track session, they perform them before because they make the sprinter adapt to a load and actually help mechanics.   Same truth for squatting and jumping.   I suppose if jumping were a sport training could consist of max singles up to 95%, then vertical jump training, then accessory work.   

Raptor

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Re: Eccentric Strength Training on Increasing Strength, RFD, and Power
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2013, 08:20:51 am »
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Wow, what crazy times... 6AM for sprints? That's insane for my lifestyle.

I do strength training at 22 o'clock, up to 23:30 or so, because at that time the gym is emptier and I don't have to split my time with 30 people in a small gym.

T0ddday

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Re: Eccentric Strength Training on Increasing Strength, RFD, and Power
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2013, 01:19:13 pm »
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Wow, what crazy times... 6AM for sprints? That's insane for my lifestyle.

I do strength training at 22 o'clock, up to 23:30 or so, because at that time the gym is emptier and I don't have to split my time with 30 people in a small gym.

Aren't you the one who said adapting to jet lag is as simple as going to sleep a few hours earlier?   I imagine the gym is pretty empty early too...

You have to remember that sprinters in the US are mostly in Florida and California, so 6am is not freezing cold or super dark most of the year.   

As far as when you choose to train there isn't much convincing research that it matters THAT much... but the research that does exist suggests your sleep is likely more efficient spending less time sleeping when it's light out.  Anecdotally this is something a lot of people have noticed.  Going to bed at 3am and getting to bed up at 9am seems to be a lot more difficult than going to bed at 12am and getting up at 6am despite the fact that both give you six hours.   

Raptor

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Re: Eccentric Strength Training on Increasing Strength, RFD, and Power
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2013, 03:04:52 pm »
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That's probably because of melatonin.