Author Topic: Gerald Green head over rim analysis  (Read 8741 times)

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Joel Smith

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Gerald Green head over rim analysis
« on: December 04, 2012, 11:44:54 am »
+1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaI8DsdGcgA


I was bored a couple of days ago and posted this.  It is really interesting... I think, how quickly he gets to his forefoot in the concentric phase of the takeoff.  I feel it has to do with his body setting an optimal firing length for the gastroc/achilles complex in regards to the total jump.  Stay flat footed and you loose the final punch of the calves at the end of takeoff.  I would imagine an athlete with a VERY good nervous system such as Green does this naturally... but maybe the rest of us mere mortals just don't pick up on it?  Seems like some other really good dunkers like T-Dub jump like this as well. 

What do you guys think?  Should we all start doing "burnouts" from Air Alert again?  Am I just crazy? ;)


Raptor

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Re: Gerald Green head over rim analysis
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2012, 12:34:11 pm »
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Why do you think doing very high volume burnouts would help? You'd be better served doing 400m sprints.

LBSS

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Re: Gerald Green head over rim analysis
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2012, 12:38:06 pm »
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hm, interesting look at his foot as he plants. never noticed the heel coming up off the floor immediately like that, as he's planting the forward foot. not sure what burnouts are but going back and look at some of my better jumps -- still vastly shittier than greene's, obviously -- my plant is too much of a jump stop for something like that to make a difference. flat footedness prevails.

to wit:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fS9bSrCGhg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fS9bSrCGhg</a>

what are burnouts? i never got air alert.
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Raptor

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Re: Gerald Green head over rim analysis
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2012, 03:41:34 pm »
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It looks like a strictly quad&glute plant... the calves aren't really loaded and the hamstrings aren't either (the tibia is forwards => no calf load; the knee is bent => no hamstring load).

You also seem to have a pretty high center of mass in the run-up.

MattA

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Re: Gerald Green head over rim analysis
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2012, 04:47:46 pm »
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yeah, your run-up is waaayy too slow, stiff, and upright. If you're jumping 34 with that technique, you could definitely be at 40+ with a proper run-up. Watch porter mayberry and zack jones

LBSS

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Re: Gerald Green head over rim analysis
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2012, 05:22:37 pm »
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yeah, your run-up is waaayy too slow, stiff, and upright. If you're jumping 34 with that technique, you could definitely be at 40+ with a proper run-up. Watch porter mayberry and zack jones

first sentence is true. second sentence might be true but is fucking useless to me because i can't do a proper run up. simply have not figured out how to do one. if you've got any advice other than "watch these supremely talented people" i'm all ears.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

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https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

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undoubtable

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Re: Gerald Green head over rim analysis
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2012, 06:00:18 pm »
+1
yeah, your run-up is waaayy too slow, stiff, and upright. If you're jumping 34 with that technique, you could definitely be at 40+ with a proper run-up. Watch porter mayberry and zack jones

first sentence is true. second sentence might be true but is fucking useless to me because i can't do a proper run up. simply have not figured out how to do one. if you've got any advice other than "watch these supremely talented people" i'm all ears.

I think playing competitive pick up games could really help you. When I was jumping my highest I would play bball 2-3 times a week. Nearly every play I was involved, whether going up for a rebound, block, layup, etc I would try to jump my highest. It got to the point where my friends/ teamates would get pissed bc I would do stupid shit sometimes but I didn't care. It definitely worked and I would consistently jump higher and jump high often. It become really effortless for me to do so. You can also jump high at the rim in between games or during a break. With adrenaline going those would usually be my highest jumps.

When I look at a rim just coming in to the gym, it looks super high and the last thing on my mind is jumping for it. But when you start playing ang get your adrenaline flowing and blood rushing it'll come naturally. You don't have to think about your plant or think at all and the good jumps start coming naturally and good technique will become second nature.

If there's no way for you to get involved in pick up games I would maybe think of other ways of potentiating your nervous system. Maybe with you, the squat would be most appropriate. Try squatting heavy but not tiring yourself out and after 15-20 minutes of rest go for the big jumps. I've had this work with sprinting where I felt my acceleration was a lot better.
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LBSS

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Re: Gerald Green head over rim analysis
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2012, 06:09:19 pm »
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^^^ not bad advice but i don't really play basketball and i no longer even have regular access to a court. i've noticed that i jump higher when the rim looks lower, so the psychological/CNS factor is definitely there. and then there's the inhibiting factor of beating myself up for not jumping better when i'm jumping poorly.

i might sign signed up to play indoor ultimate this winter and will get my jumping and sprinting in that way. plus would help with GPP; i'm a bit out of shape. more relaxed jumping in the flow of the game = good practice. okay.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 06:23:50 pm by LBSS »
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

MattA

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Re: Gerald Green head over rim analysis
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2012, 08:38:08 pm »
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well, you gotta try to copy their technique as best as possible. first thing i would suggest is not do such a straight line approach to the rim, use a more curved path, kinda like high jumpers use in track. All the best two foot jumpers use this arc approach. As far as the actual runup, you've got to start out with a short step, then take longer and longer steps until you plant. with your current technique your feet are nearly underneath you on each step, they need to be in front of you some and force you to lean forward with your torso more, putting your glutes and hams in a more advantageous stretched position. To begin, start by practicing the approach beginning a step or two inside the 3-point line and as you get used to it you can increase the distance, allowing you to use more speed and power in your approach.


All of this is applied to a 1-2 take-off, not a jump stop like justin darlington. I know that's how you currently jump but I really don't think it's optimal for most people, it works for him bc he's 6'4 160 with bungee cords for calves/achilles
« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 08:40:58 pm by MattA »

AGC

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Re: Gerald Green head over rim analysis
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2012, 10:05:05 pm »
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Yeah I agree with MattA below. Just because you can't do a ridiculously good plant now, doesn't mean you can't with a few months of practising a couple of times a week with an idea of what a 'good' plant should look/feel like. Given you're not in the best position to do that now, playing sport where jumping is required would help you I think, Ultimate sounds good. So long as you are aware of the shortcomings in your approach, it should slowly become more optimal with practice.

LBSS

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Re: Gerald Green head over rim analysis
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2012, 10:52:02 pm »
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you mean...i should consciously practice...good form?



in all seriousness, that is good advice and i'll take it when i get the chance. thanks to both.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

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AGC

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Re: Gerald Green head over rim analysis
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2012, 12:10:57 am »
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you mean...i should consciously practice...good form?



in all seriousness, that is good advice and i'll take it when i get the chance. thanks to both.

Lol, I guess I was asking for that. I know it's easier said than done of course.

On-topic: Awesome video, never really thought about the forefoot thing before.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 12:12:28 am by acole14 »

TKXII

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Re: Gerald Green head over rim analysis
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2012, 12:42:32 am »
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I don't know who exactly I am responding to but I object to the idea that one should try to replicate the form. One should perform exercises that improve force absorption instead.

When I first started training 2 footed vertical about 4 years ago at least, I had NO IDEA how to plant off of ONE step, let alone, a full runup with 3-5 steps. It was IMPOSSIBLE to do a running vertical. It was the ugliest fuck ever. Practicing the form helped very little, watching dunk videos also did not help. It took years to understand. Still taking 3 huge steps is something I can barely do. But I can easily do a powerful 1-2 step vert, and the reason why I can plant so much faster, more powerfully, and with a longer penultimate now than 2 years ago, is due to greater eccentric strength, and force absorption, not just because I have thought about the spatial relationships of my joints during the jump mentally for several dozens of hours over the past few years. Squats have helped me, sprinting, and I suppose yes watching videos again and again and again has helped. But 4 years ago, when it was impossible, there was no reactive strength anywhere. Just 3 years ago, freshman year, I also could not physically do it without losing like 3 inches on my vert each time compared to taking a mini step. Only within the past year have I been able to look normal while practicing RVJ. By normal I mean, staying low, planting sideways, and having a noticeable plant foot which hits the ground before the other foot.

Similarly, in sprinting, practicing maximum velocity mechanics gets you almost nowhere without the force producing capabilities typical of an elite sprinter that is developed through strength training and lots of sprinting at near maximal intensities. Practicing the form won't even make SENSE without those force producing capabilities you just will not be able to do it. If you have weak hamstrings, tight adductors and hip flexors it will be impossible to practice max velocity mechanics. Same with acceleration. It's very difficult to practice a low heel recovery if you don't have much quad strength. Build them up and it makes more sense.

Conclusion: Do whatever you want, but you will not improve much by practicing Gerald Greene's form, because you cannot produce force like him, and you will not produce force like him, until you can delineate exactly how he produces force and how much is coming from each joint (ankle, knee, hip), then try to understand how your limb structure and biomechanics can try to replicate that form and then work towards improving the force production or absorption in those areas. (actually you don't need to do all of that, since most elite jumpers jump like Greene). For LBSS force absorption in the hips could help him stay low. Depth jumps jupming backwards and bounding will help. But forcing yourself to plant sideways a little more may help load the hips. You may not jump as high but that doesn't matter it's about training the hips at that magical 90 degree angle elite jumpers maintain during the amortization. (edit: btw when I say you it is meant generally and not to any one individual).

Regardless, Greene doesn't seem to jump THAT differently or differently at all from other elite jumpers. It does seem like his plant foot is less flat footed but he transitions from flat foot to forefoot by the time the other non-plant foot makes contact with the floor, allowing for both feet to take off simultaneously. Doesn't sound too crazy if I got that right. He also plants sideways a little bit which is very natural. He also does the twisting supercoil technique that sickenvendetta talked about. jk about the last one.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 01:30:48 am by Avishek »
"Performance during stretch-shortening cycle exercise is influenced by the visco-elastic properties of the muscle-tendon units. During stretching of an activated muscle, mechanical energy is absorbed in the tendon structures (tendon and aponeurosis) and this energy can subsequently be re-utilized if shortening of the muscle immediately follows the stretching. According to Biscotti (2000), 72% of the elastic energy restitution action comes from tendons, 28% - from contractile elements of muscles.

http://www.verkhoshansky.com/Portals/0/Presentations/Shock%20Method%20Plyometrics.pdf

Raptor

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Re: Gerald Green head over rim analysis
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2012, 05:04:55 am »
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I don't get the forefoot thing. I've been forefoot dominant my whole life and it seems to be a terrible idea for two foot jumping - I always end up overloading the quad to the point of complete failure or I end up going forward.

I've found out that if I try to stay more on the heels when I plant I can maintain a more vertical torso and go up instead of forward so... it's pretty much the reverse true for me.

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Re: Gerald Green head over rim analysis
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2012, 07:42:31 am »
+1
improvements in the SVJ carries over to the RVJ

keep it simple. get massive SVJ with the heavy compounds / SVJ drills.. play the sport and the RVJ will eventually take care of itself. manufacturing the SVJ takes time but its a sure thing.

you are not going to think about the mechanics of the approach jump or plants (which you will probably screw yourself up anyway), if you are going for a layup or running after / defending somebody preparing for a block.. those are the best drills.. the live in-game, chasing something.. natural adrenalin fueled drills.







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