Author Topic: Hang Snatch Alternative  (Read 25705 times)

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steven-miller

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Re: Hang Snatch Alternative
« Reply #75 on: January 27, 2012, 05:53:54 pm »
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WTF?

So you guys were actually talking about doing jump squats with 80% of your 1RM?

I think this emoticon " :ninja: " is not enough to express my feelings.

I did not bring this up. The "research" did.

steven-miller

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Re: Hang Snatch Alternative
« Reply #76 on: January 27, 2012, 05:56:33 pm »
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WTF?

So you guys were actually talking about doing jump squats with 80% of your 1RM?

I think this emoticon " :ninja: " is not enough to express my feelings.

But actually, this brings up an interesting question. I would highly doubt that this kind of loading would actually produce the highest peak power, regardless if for body, bar or system. Now I would actually want to have a look at that paper myself.

Avishek, can you post full text of the first paper for people here to see?

Raptor

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Re: Hang Snatch Alternative
« Reply #77 on: January 27, 2012, 08:23:36 pm »
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Yeah it doesn't make too much sense... maybe that % allows you to be explosive enough and at the same time it's still very heavy so the power output is the highest? I don't know.

TKXII

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Re: Hang Snatch Alternative
« Reply #78 on: January 27, 2012, 09:30:46 pm »
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Not sure if I should keep arguing point unrelated to this discussion anymore. Arguing about crayons would be irrelevant. But delving into some research, or discussing the benefit to training with hang snatch alternatives is not irrelevant. I don't understand your logic. Maybe you should read the full paper it may make more sense. The question is: how "powerful" is a jump squat, versus a power clean or ahang snatch. ANd that's what the studies try to answer.

I don't really care about looking at that paper again it doesn't matter. All I know is this, power cleans develop power, hang snatches develop power. SO do jump squats, kettlebell swings, kettlebell jumps... etc. They all work so it really doesn't matter. I choos ejump squats over power cleans anyday cuz they feel better.
"Performance during stretch-shortening cycle exercise is influenced by the visco-elastic properties of the muscle-tendon units. During stretching of an activated muscle, mechanical energy is absorbed in the tendon structures (tendon and aponeurosis) and this energy can subsequently be re-utilized if shortening of the muscle immediately follows the stretching. According to Biscotti (2000), 72% of the elastic energy restitution action comes from tendons, 28% - from contractile elements of muscles.

http://www.verkhoshansky.com/Portals/0/Presentations/Shock%20Method%20Plyometrics.pdf

TKXII

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Re: Hang Snatch Alternative
« Reply #79 on: January 27, 2012, 09:32:25 pm »
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80%1RM squat for a jump squat is a lot. I don't understand why in the 100% jump squat group, poer development was higher than the squat group with 100%. The values should be less disparate at those values. So don't know if they defined jump squat RM differently, don't care nymore.

Power as measured from a force plate was also much higher in the jump squat so remember that.
"Performance during stretch-shortening cycle exercise is influenced by the visco-elastic properties of the muscle-tendon units. During stretching of an activated muscle, mechanical energy is absorbed in the tendon structures (tendon and aponeurosis) and this energy can subsequently be re-utilized if shortening of the muscle immediately follows the stretching. According to Biscotti (2000), 72% of the elastic energy restitution action comes from tendons, 28% - from contractile elements of muscles.

http://www.verkhoshansky.com/Portals/0/Presentations/Shock%20Method%20Plyometrics.pdf

T0ddday

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Re: Hang Snatch Alternative
« Reply #80 on: February 01, 2012, 02:25:09 pm »
+1
Thank you for the definition, it is sufficient for now. Your operationalization is lacking though, since going by feel might not be a valid measure of force production since you might feel muscle A fire more compared to muscle B, but that might be because B is way stronger than A and still produces more force - just less force compared to it's potential. You might want to think about that again.

About the studies you cited: They do not show anything of relevance to this discussion. The results showed that an unloaded jump-squat is highest in body power production. What shall we conclude from that? Jumping is the best training for jumping?

Btw., I feel my glutes quite well during front-squats compared to quads. By your definition it must be a glute-dominant exercise then.

And you PR'd your back-squat after front-squats not because they are so different, but because you are so weak.

I've been out of the country for a week so this discussion might be completely dead... but I just wanted to make a few salient points.   

1) First of all, your example of feeling front squats in your glutes is precisely why I think classifying exercises as quad or glute dominant doesn't make sense.  Not that a definition of "where you FEEL it" makes much sense either...  But I once had a coach who made the point that a weak front squat/high bar back squat ratio was usually caused by weak hamstrings/glutes.  His point was that while the front squat activates the quadriceps to a greater extent than the back squat, it also also almost completely takes the lower back out of the movement but still requires a high degree of hip flexion.  Therefore, to stand up a front squat the load for the hip extension is transferred primarily to the hamstrings.  So, the majority of athletes (save for those with really well developed hamstrings) will fail on an exercise which is deemed quad dominant because of weak hamstrings, which really shows the futility of labeling exercises quad/hamstring dominant. 

2) This sorta leads to the point I am trying to make about high-bar olympic squat VS low-bar squat.  You make a good point about the benefits of the greater load one can handle in low bar squat.  My main issue with the low bar squat is the point I was trying to make with the powerlifting video.  Well you happen to be able to perform full range low-bar squats to consistent depth with excellent form in the video posted of you.... I find athletes who perform the low-bar squat are more likely to increase the load while sacrificing their form/depth.  Obviously, athletes can cheat with the high bar squat too.  For this reason when If I start training an athlete who has spent time in the gym but doesn't really know what the are doing I ask how much they can deadlift.  While I think the deadlift is far inferior to the squat for most athletic transfer.... without outright lying it's really hard to cheat.  Straps or no straps if one athlete can deadlift 200 lbs and the other 400 lbs, the second has a stronger lower body.   As far as the hi-bar and low-bar squat.  If two untrained athletes spend six months and athlete A gets significantly stronger in hi-bar squat and athlete B gets significantly stronger in low bar squat (by some factor greater than 1 as you stated).... I think the difference in the aid to their athleticism would be somewhat negligible.   

However, in my experience if an athlete lifts alone the squat depth will get more sacrificed as the weight goes up for the low bar squat.  That's why I actually try to get athletes doing a full ATG olympic pause squat.  The advice is just so simple: Go down until you can't go lower.... Wait... Stand up.   Getting stronger at this lift is always a function of stronger legs while non-paused max squat and low bar attempts often suffer from less desirable form.  This is sorta what killed powerlifting in my mind: the goal to squat as much as possible resulted in high squats, a nebulous definition of parallel, strange squat equipment, the mono-lift, etc.  Now, of course you are an example of an athlete who is capable of low-bar squatting with impressive form, so this is not an argument against the lift but rather against what a lot of people turn the lift into.....

3) About your statement about whether oly lifters struggle standing up after you the catch in the clean/snatch.  I'm not much of an oly lifter but I think this is dependent on the weight class.  Watching the 2011 world championships at the lower weight classes the lifters either couldn't front squat the weight or wasted so much energy grinding out the front squat that they were dead for the jerk.... However, by the time the super heavyweights were up most lifters bounced right up with the weight and all the suspense was dependent on whether they would get the jerk.  It seems for heavier lifters it's easy to build up surplus front squat strength for weight's that are really difficult to jerk.    Finally, you should check out the jerk of pyrros dimas... It's an overhead squat jerk... and he catches it in a parallel vertical shins squat.... Sorta like your low bar squat, which might be another reason why it's a good idea to be able to handle a bunch of weight in the low bar squat. 

4)  Finally, the main point here is that weights (for athletes, not power/oly lifters) are about getting stronger.  As long as you choose a decent selection of lifts and you attempt to execute them with good bar speed, the goal in one year from today should be to be able to move a greater load in a somewhat equal time in:  The hi-bar squat, the low bar squat, parallel hi-bar squats, quarter squats, front squats, deadlifts, push-press, hang-cleans, power-snatch, hang snatch... etc, etc.  Some of these exercises activate different muscles to a different extent, but you won't be able to do get overall stronger in lower-body compound lifts unless your quads, hamstrings, glutes, ALL get stronger.   Weight training just isn't that specific.  Whether or not you feel squats in your back, quads, hamstrings, or in your brain (Dizziness might be where I FEEL it most), adding significant weight to compound-lower body movements makes your lower body stronger, period.  Your specificity will come in to play during your sport training and your sport season, ie 200m sprinters will have larger left the right hamstrings (running the turn), jumpers must spend A LOT of time jumping, bounding, etc, etc.  Lifting for athleticism is about executing compound movements that cannot be executed if any of the links are weak.  Save the quad-dominance and single muscle focus for the bodybuilders! 

Just my two cents.   A good discussion nonetheless.   








steven-miller

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Re: Hang Snatch Alternative
« Reply #81 on: February 02, 2012, 06:08:33 pm »
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A good post and I agree with a lot of it. The front-squat analysis I find a bit troublesome though. IMO there won't be as much hamstring contribution because the very acute knee angle will cause the hamstrings to shorten from the distal end which means that there won't be as much force production from this muscle group. I think the hip extension in the front-squat is primarily glutes.
That is one of the reasons as well why I prefer low-bar squats and also why I think my squat is just a tiny bit too deep. I think for a top set at 200 kg x 5 it was not terrible, but there are still many form errors in there (primarily neck position and tightness at the bottom). A squat should be full, without a doubt, but you don't want to let the knees come forward at the bottom (hamstring relaxation), which happened in my squat for a little bit at least.
Interesting observation regarding the lighter oly-lifters though. Quite possible that getting stronger becomes is more difficult for the lower weight-classes. Good argument in 4) as well, albeit one must understand that small differences in exercise execution will still be likely to make a difference in training success. The reason is not because movements like low- and high-bar-squats are drastically different, but they are different enough that they will effect things long-term because small effects have the chance to accumulate. I am pretty sure that differences will exist for a guy squatting 2-3 times a week with one style or the other. If those differences will be in jump performance? I do not know.