Author Topic: Interesting Jump snatch variation.  (Read 12375 times)

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$ick3nin.v3nd3tta

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Re: Interesting Jump snatch variation.
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2011, 11:28:56 am »
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it sort of looks like what you would do when you want to do a jump on a bike. Maybe he's trying to simulate that with weights so he can do higher jumps, just a guess.

+1.

I think that's his exact reasoning for doing this exercise, being able to bunny hop & overcome obstacles/terrain much more efficiently.

Genius really.


LBSS

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Re: Interesting Jump snatch variation.
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2011, 11:46:54 am »
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^^^ not sure if serious.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

adarqui

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Re: Interesting Jump snatch variation.
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2011, 03:26:41 pm »
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it sort of looks like what you would do when you want to do a jump on a bike. Maybe he's trying to simulate that with weights so he can do higher jumps, just a guess.

lmfao :F








it sort of looks like what you would do when you want to do a jump on a bike. Maybe he's trying to simulate that with weights so he can do higher jumps, just a guess.

+1.

I think that's his exact reasoning for doing this exercise, being able to bunny hop & overcome obstacles/terrain much more efficiently.

Genius really.



lmfao x2







train with a heavier bike + get stronger throughout..... progressive overload... at some point 'specificity' can become a problem, especially in this case imo, because i still don't see how it is specific at all to mountain biking.

steven-miller

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Re: Interesting Jump snatch variation.
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2011, 03:50:53 pm »
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I agree with adarq, this is a misconception of what specificity means. The goal is not to try to train as specific as possible (if that was the case, you would just do your sport and keep away from the weight room), you still need get stronger in what you do. If your training movement does not allow this to happen in an objectively measurable way, specificity becomes a useless concept. Aspects like time for force production, muscle groups involved in a movement, length of the kinetic chain etc. are more useful in determining specificity in my opinion. Would the guy do powersnatches and bent over rows he would probably get much faster progress for a much longer period of time than with this "exercise".

adarqui

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Re: Interesting Jump snatch variation.
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2011, 04:15:56 pm »
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I agree with adarq, this is a misconception of what specificity means. The goal is not to try to train as specific as possible (if that was the case, you would just do your sport and keep away from the weight room), you still need get stronger in what you do. If your training movement does not allow this to happen in an objectively measurable way, specificity becomes a useless concept. Aspects like time for force production, muscle groups involved in a movement, length of the kinetic chain etc. are more useful in determining specificity in my opinion. Would the guy do powersnatches and bent over rows he would probably get much faster progress for a much longer period of time than with this "exercise".

^^

$ick3nin.v3nd3tta

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Re: Interesting Jump snatch variation.
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2011, 03:00:44 am »
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The goal is not to try to train as specific as possible (if that was the case, you would just do your sport and keep away from the weight room), you still need get stronger in what you do. If your training movement does not allow this to happen in an objectively measurable way, specificity becomes a useless concept. Aspects like time for force production, muscle groups involved in a movement, length of the kinetic chain etc. are more useful in determining specificity in my opinion. Would the guy do powersnatches and bent over rows he would probably get much faster progress for a much longer period of time than with this "exercise".

I disagree.

Remember, strength endurance (Mountain biking/road cycling) is characterized by a combination of great strength and significant endurance. - V. M. Zatsiorsky -

The goal off the bike would be to train as specific as possible in the weight room with exercises which employ that whole triple extension (hip/knee/ankle) as witnessed on the bike, which the OP's exercise has. Specificity can only take you so far (riding the bike), then it would be time for greater strength stimulation (weight room), although specificity (riding) will always remain king. Case in point, my power output on my road bike kept increasing the stronger I got with the deadlift & hip thrust. This is seen with track cyclists, very strong guys that can put out huge levels of power. The OP would benefit more from his exercise than doing tricep extensions etc.

The only point I agree on is there are probably more optimal exercises. Maybe he just doesn't want to do powersnatches and bent over rows.

I can certainly see how this exercise would help a rider out, trust me. I ride bikes all the time, more road than mountain biking, mainly to get my hip flexors super explosive for sprinting. The big difference I find is upper body soreness after mountain biking.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 03:08:58 am by $ick3nin.v3nd3tta »

$ick3nin.v3nd3tta

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Re: Interesting Jump snatch variation.
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2011, 03:06:50 am »
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train with a heavier bike + get stronger throughout.....

How would you load the bike? (make it heavier).


hennas87

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Re: Interesting Jump snatch variation.
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2011, 06:47:09 am »
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you would have to either buy yourself a new heavier bike or use someone elses, hardly convenient.

For those laughing and being rude about what I said: "it sort of looks like what you would do when you want to do a jump on a bike. Maybe he's trying to simulate that with weights so he can do higher jumps, just a guess"

I never said it was the right thing to do, I was merely suggesting what the guy in the video might be trying to use it for. If you can think of any better reasons he might be doing it then let us know. Who knows, it might be working wonders for him... ? But then again it might not.
boomshakala

mattyg35

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Re: Interesting Jump snatch variation.
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2011, 08:02:07 am »
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This is a stupid exercise.

It is only a stupid exercise if he is going to get hurt, or it isn't going to meet his training goals. He likes to do it, he feels it is very safe, and from my discussions with him and the nature of his sport, it would appear that, while unconventional, it is helping him develop his full body power.

Maybe he could do a regular snatch but then that does require a bit more balance and ROM, and in fairness, he has no need what so ever to hold a weight overhead.

Stupid? No. Unconventional? Yes.

That exercise sucks, and has no purpose. This is even more pathetic considering that you call yourself a 'coach'.
You should go check out the 'level 7' exercises if you're into doing stupid shit.


steven-miller

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Re: Interesting Jump snatch variation.
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2011, 08:20:32 am »
+3
The goal off the bike would be to train as specific as possible in the weight room with exercises which employ that whole triple extension (hip/knee/ankle) as witnessed on the bike, which the OP's exercise has. Specificity can only take you so far (riding the bike), then it would be time for greater strength stimulation (weight room), although specificity (riding) will always remain king. Case in point, my power output on my road bike kept increasing the stronger I got with the deadlift & hip thrust. This is seen with track cyclists, very strong guys that can put out huge levels of power. The OP would benefit more from his exercise than doing tricep extensions etc.

Which exercise(s) would allow you to use more weight:

a) The OPs exercise
b) The powersnatch and bent over row

If you come to the same conclusion as me, namely that b) allows more weight, which exercises do you think will benefit the development of muscular strength and power more? The answer is b) as well, because exercises that allow more weight, will also allow more progress over a longer period of time. Making the transfer of that strength to the bike is going to be accomplished with doing stuff on the bike (specificity), but the physical prerequisites in terms of muscle strength are best developed in the weight room with solid exercises that allow a lot of weight to be moved over a great range of motion and with the use of the most muscle mass possible.

adarqui

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Re: Interesting Jump snatch variation.
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2011, 07:14:43 pm »
+1
The goal off the bike would be to train as specific as possible in the weight room with exercises which employ that whole triple extension (hip/knee/ankle) as witnessed on the bike, which the OP's exercise has. Specificity can only take you so far (riding the bike), then it would be time for greater strength stimulation (weight room), although specificity (riding) will always remain king. Case in point, my power output on my road bike kept increasing the stronger I got with the deadlift & hip thrust. This is seen with track cyclists, very strong guys that can put out huge levels of power. The OP would benefit more from his exercise than doing tricep extensions etc.

Which exercise(s) would allow you to use more weight:

a) The OPs exercise
b) The powersnatch and bent over row

If you come to the same conclusion as me, namely that b) allows more weight, which exercises do you think will benefit the development of muscular strength and power more? The answer is b) as well, because exercises that allow more weight, will also allow more progress over a longer period of time. Making the transfer of that strength to the bike is going to be accomplished with doing stuff on the bike (specificity), but the physical prerequisites in terms of muscle strength are best developed in the weight room with solid exercises that allow a lot of weight to be moved over a great range of motion and with the use of the most muscle mass possible.


x2





"The goal off the bike would be to train as specific as possible in the weight room with exercises which employ that whole triple extension (hip/knee/ankle) as witnessed on the bike, which the OP's exercise has." -- sickenin vendetta

It's never about training as specific as possible in the weight room. There's a degree of specificity that needs to occur, but, as you increase the level of specificity, you decrease the ability to cause gains in maximal strength. Maximal strength is the umbrella which makes all things possible. That exercise can only get you so far. Let's just imagine that it was effective & specific, thus allowing for significant transfer to mountain biking (which I doubt). That exercise would only be good to improve explosive strength SLIGHTLY, specific to mountain biking. There's just not enough room for progressive overload, time under tension, or appropriate loading of the actual muscle groups/movements of the human body. Heavy squatting alone would raise someone's ability to generate more force in a variety of movements specific to mountain biking. Power snatch is a much more sane version of loading the muscle groups & movements specific to mountain biking, it allows for more progress via addition of load than the OP's exercise. The problem with power snatch alone is that it would fail for the same reasons that the OP's exercise would fail, time under tension & the ability to increase load without progressing max strength will result in far less ability to make long term gains, but this is far more of a problem in the OP's exercise than with power snatching/power cleaning/oly power variants.

Take for example people who train using loaded jumps & completely neglect max strength training. They might achieve a few inches of gains, but long term, they will hardly achieve anything significant. They will stagnate forever unless proper max strength training is incorporated.

If you want to improve triple extension, you have to improve max strength in the various movements that make up the triple extension: knee extension, hip extension, and plantar flexion. That can be done via:
- isolation (calve raises, glute bridges/hypers, knee extensions)
- multi joint (squat, oly variants)
- special exercises (bounds/depth jumps, oly variants + other power variants)
- specificity (doing movements specific to your sport/event, ie mountain biking, jumping, sprinting etc)


etc

Specificity is a topic that is completely understood for the most part imo.. For example, the specificity between a half squat & deep squat is significant, one allows you to overload the most important prime movers for jumping significantly whilst the other does not. However, the difference between IMPROVEMENTS in max/explosive strength potential between half squatting and loaded jumps, is HUGE. Half squatting improvement causes considerable adaptations to the human organism, while loaded jumps does not. Stress is very important. The more specific you get, generally, the amount stress decreases. For example,

- loaded jumps (very specific) vs half squat (less specific)
- riding a bike in an easy gear @ max effort vs riding a bike in a very hard gear @ max effort

The only caveat to all of that, is shocklike exercises, such as depth jumps and downhill sprinting. Those are extremely specific yet extremely intensive, but that's a whole different monster because you're using "shock" to target protective mechanisms of the CNS, you can't do that with snatches, OP's exercise, loaded jumps, etc.

peace

$ick3nin.v3nd3tta

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Re: Interesting Jump snatch variation.
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2011, 03:16:10 am »
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I agree with the past 2 posts.

Like I stated, there are probably more optimal exercises. Maybe he just doesn't want to do powersnatches and bent over rows?.

I think one advantage would be that the OP's exercise creates less CNS fatigue which could be best spent on actual mountain biking.



Original Link: http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2006/10/what-muscles-are-you-using-to-pedal.html



JackW

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Re: Interesting Jump snatch variation.
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2011, 07:46:51 am »
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Some good discussion here and to those who would prescribe different exercises for triple extension, upper body power - well so would I. However, it is an exercise he clearly likes doing,  and so instead of flat out saying no, I actually did something that I am sure most of the critics in this thread would never do and that is I went out and tried it this weekend. Here is what I found

1) It is infinitely easier on the shoulder joints than regular snatches which given he doesn't need to go overhead is a useful thing to have.
2) It does provide good simultaneous stimulus for the triple extension and the upper back/deltoid area, which in his sport is something he uses (which isn't downhill mountain biking, it is bike technic, which involves a lot of jumping from rocks to logs and other random objects on your bike in an obstacle course type situation against the clock. I should clear that up. The bikes are actually more like a BMX bike).
3) It is a safe movement (aside from the jumping right in front of the step business which I have recommended he not do going forward as it does strike me as trip hazard).

I am truly surprised that some of you do not seem to understand that in training enjoying the exercises is a very good, motivational thing, especially given that it suits his goals, and is safe to perform. Part of being a good coach is working WITH the athlete, not just telling them what to do all the time regardless of their input. If it is a little unconventional, well, frankly, I don't care. I will keep on having an open mind to new things and leave the rigid thinkers to themselves.

Anyway here is a video of him and another guy in action.

http://vimeo.com/23908281

They are pretty impressive at what they do (although there is a few crashes in this one. Interestingly if you watch at the 0.35 mark and again at the 1.30 mark there are a couple of good examples of them using a similar motion on their bikes

« Last Edit: May 22, 2011, 07:51:26 am by JackW »

JackW

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Re: Interesting Jump snatch variation.
« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2011, 08:00:56 am »
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Also just re-reading some of the posts and I see some of you mentioned heavier bikes etc. Certainly that is a possibility but also not always achievable given the $ required for two bikes, and also the high skill component to this sport I would prefer him to use more convenient means to do this type of work (such as in a weight room) and just focus on his skill work when out riding.

Another consideration I didn't mention previously because I thought it was pretty obvious (but apparently not) is that this is one exercise in his program. I have him do regular strength work as well as a variety of other triple extension exercises of the unweighted and weighted kind.

JackW

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Re: Interesting Jump snatch variation.
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2011, 08:09:24 am »
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Slightly off topic, I must have watch Karol's videos 100's of times and I only just realized their bikes have no seats.  :ninja: