Author Topic: Interesting Jump snatch variation.  (Read 12339 times)

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steven-miller

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Re: Interesting Jump snatch variation.
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2011, 09:43:24 am »
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Some good discussion here and to those who would prescribe different exercises for triple extension, upper body power - well so would I. However, it is an exercise he clearly likes doing,  and so instead of flat out saying no, I actually did something that I am sure most of the critics in this thread would never do and that is I went out and tried it this weekend. Here is what I found

1) It is infinitely easier on the shoulder joints than regular snatches which given he doesn't need to go overhead is a useful thing to have.
2) It does provide good simultaneous stimulus for the triple extension and the upper back/deltoid area, which in his sport is something he uses (which isn't downhill mountain biking, it is bike technic, which involves a lot of jumping from rocks to logs and other random objects on your bike in an obstacle course type situation against the clock. I should clear that up. The bikes are actually more like a BMX bike).
3) It is a safe movement (aside from the jumping right in front of the step business which I have recommended he not do going forward as it does strike me as trip hazard).

Some questions / comments to you, Jack.

1) In how far are snatches "hard on the shoulder joints"? I don't find that to be the case at all, unless you have shoulder condition / flexibility issues, or you are lifting some pretty impressive poundages.
Also, isn't having stronger and more stable shoulders due to pressing, snatching and chin-upping something good for everyone and especially for an athlete regardless of sport?
2) Do you agree that it provides inferior stimulus to more conventional exercises, as has been brought forward in this thread several times now?
3) Maybe its safe, maybe not. How did you determine that?



I am truly surprised that some of you do not seem to understand that in training enjoying the exercises is a very good, motivational thing, especially given that it suits his goals, and is safe to perform. Part of being a good coach is working WITH the athlete, not just telling them what to do all the time regardless of their input. If it is a little unconventional, well, frankly, I don't care. I will keep on having an open mind to new things and leave the rigid thinkers to themselves.


I can see the connection between training motivation and training success very well. But I also see a clear connection between a good training program utilizing the best suited exercises and training success.

Did you actually teach him the powersnatch, the row and the overhead press? If so, did he dislike the exercises that much that he came up with this movement? Or did he even give them a try to see what they do to his performance? You know, other then fun in training, getting serious results can be a pretty strong motivator for many people as well...

I hope you don't disregard my points as "rigid thinking". I am a pretty open minded person, but I still see a difference between a good new idea and a bad new idea.

Regards,
s-m

JackW

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Re: Interesting Jump snatch variation.
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2011, 10:12:55 am »
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Hi Steven

I definitely wasn't referring to you as a rigid thinker. You definitely strike me as open minded.

So to your questions

1) I was talking in terms of shoulder flexibility/mobility. I have seen a lot of athletes over the years that don't have the necessary ROM to correctly perform overhead lifts with a bar.

Generally speaking I do not believe stronger and more stable shoulders are necessary regardless of sport. You definitely have to take the sport into consideration. In this sport though, stronger shoulders are clearly going to be advantageous.

2) After playing around with the exercise myself,talking to him, and watching the videos I am now of the very clear in my belief that in the context of his entire program that this exercise will provide as good a stimulus as some of the alternative exercises mentioned. If I didn't think it would then I would obviously not be doing my job as a coach because I would be advocating inferior methods.

I would like to add here that when i saw the video, my first impression was similar to yours, that there were better, more effective and safer alternatives. After discussing it with him and also doing it myself (and also looking at his total program again yesterday, which already includes rows) I have no issue with this exercise.

3) How do I know it is safe. 20 years of training, 15 years of coaching, experience mostly. I have tried enough different exercises over the years to get a good feel pretty quickly about the value and safety of an exercise, I know that might seem like a cop out but I am sure anybody here who has trained for an extended period and tried many different things will have enough body awareness to know if something feels ok or feels wrong. This took no time to learn and actually feels quite good to do.

"You know, other then fun in training, getting serious results can be a pretty strong motivator for many people as well..." Steve Miller

Steve, I agree 100% with what your quote. If I thought in anyway it was going to be detrimental to his performance on the bike then I would have had no hesitation to have him stop doing it.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2011, 10:20:20 am by JackW »

steven-miller

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Re: Interesting Jump snatch variation.
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2011, 12:27:45 pm »
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1) I was talking in terms of shoulder flexibility/mobility. I have seen a lot of athletes over the years that don't have the necessary ROM to correctly perform overhead lifts with a bar.

Generally speaking I do not believe stronger and more stable shoulders are necessary regardless of sport. You definitely have to take the sport into consideration. In this sport though, stronger shoulders are clearly going to be advantageous.

Which kind of athlete, other than an injured one, is not able to press or hold stuff overhead? And even if those exist, this does not mean that doing presses or snatches are "hard on their shoulders". To the contrary, doing those exercises will train and strengthen this ROM, which is useful to every human being, not just sports people. Your argumentation seems to be that since some athletes do not use this ROM in their sport, they should not train it. I disagree quite strongly about that. In fact I believe that everyone who is capable of doing so would do himself/herself a gigantic favor in training his/her whole body to a certain degree at least.

2) After playing around with the exercise myself,talking to him, and watching the videos I am now of the very clear in my belief that in the context of his entire program that this exercise will provide as good a stimulus as some of the alternative exercises mentioned. If I didn't think it would then I would obviously not be doing my job as a coach because I would be advocating inferior methods.

I would like to add here that when i saw the video, my first impression was similar to yours, that there were better, more effective and safer alternatives. After discussing it with him and also doing it myself (and also looking at his total program again yesterday, which already includes rows) I have no issue with this exercise.

I think in this case you have provided us with insufficient information because you are arguing that the exercise has to be evaluated in the context of the rest of his program - which I agree with. But then you should at least roughly present the programming you use for this athlete when you ask about opinions on this exercise. Because I still cannot think of a way in which this exercise will work as well as powersnatches and rows for example.

3) How do I know it is safe. 20 years of training, 15 years of coaching, experience mostly. I have tried enough different exercises over the years to get a good feel pretty quickly about the value and safety of an exercise, I know that might seem like a cop out but I am sure anybody here who has trained for an extended period and tried many different things will have enough body awareness to know if something feels ok or feels wrong. This took no time to learn and actually feels quite good to do.

I am fine enough with that. Hope your intuition is correct.