Adarq.org
Performance Area => Article & Video Discussion => Topic started by: JackW on May 17, 2011, 08:49:44 pm
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Hi Guys
here is a video of a mountain bike rider I coach doing a very interesting version of a jump snatch. I didn't prescribe this exercise for him but he tells me he likes it and watching the video it actually seems pretty cool. Anyway, it was pretty interesting and I thought you guys might like it
http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=692pur&s=7
I would love to hear your feedback and thoughts on it.
Jack
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What is this supposed to do and why is a normal snatch, or normal jump snatch even, not sufficient in doing it?
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kinda looks like a broad jump snatch. But second the above... what's the dude's rationale for the movement???
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He told me it was for upper body (shoulders mostly). I suspect he likes the dynamic nature of it and also the fact that it is pretty full body. As to why he doesn't just do regular snatches? I have no idea. He only showed me this video today. I saw it and was like WTF? I have asked him a few questions about it myself and am interested to hear his thoughts.
JW
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Well you just summed up my 2 thoughts already...
I saw it and was like WTF?
and
As to why he doesn't just do regular snatches? I have no idea.
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This is a stupid exercise.
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This is a stupid exercise.
It is only a stupid exercise if he is going to get hurt, or it isn't going to meet his training goals. He likes to do it, he feels it is very safe, and from my discussions with him and the nature of his sport, it would appear that, while unconventional, it is helping him develop his full body power.
Maybe he could do a regular snatch but then that does require a bit more balance and ROM, and in fairness, he has no need what so ever to hold a weight overhead.
Stupid? No. Unconventional? Yes.
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This is a stupid exercise.
It is only a stupid exercise if he is going to get hurt, or it isn't going to meet his training goals. He likes to do it, he feels it is very safe, and from my discussions with him and the nature of his sport, it would appear that, while unconventional, it is helping him develop his full body power.
Maybe he could do a regular snatch but then that does require a bit more balance and ROM, and in fairness, he has no need what so ever to hold a weight overhead.
Stupid? No. Unconventional? Yes.
I have to respectfully disagree with that. Not getting hurt by some training method does not necessarily make it unstupid. Your athlete found something that he thought might going to help him and which he thinks is safe (he probably just thinks it's cool because it's different).
However, is he really in a position to come to an educated conclusion about that? Isn't this why he has you as his coach to tell him whether something is uneffective (compared to other training methods) or unsafe? Do you really think this is a better exercise than a powersnatch or a barbell row? Would you actually make all of your mountain bike riders do this exercise because it is that good?
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What if you have weak shoulders (for the weight your legs are capable of propelling) and still want to snatch, but don't want to take years of training your shoulders to reach that level?
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It does not take years for christs sake. You would obviously do overhead presses and snatch what you can and increase both regularly. It is rather unlikely that someone is able to snatch 120 kg and not have the upperbody strength to hold it overhead or develope it in a rather short time. I am a pretty good example of rather poor upperbody strength but not so bad lowerbody strength and for me lowerbody power still sets the limit for my powersnatch by far.
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i'd have to agree with most everyone else in here, i don't like it.. imo, just keep the loading vertical (traditional oly's & their variations), then just tie in "horizontal movements" using med ball/weight throws+tosses/double and/or single leg bounds for distance, sled work etc.
what i don't get is how that has anything to do with mountain biking?
Maybe he could do a regular snatch but then that does require a bit more balance and ROM, and in fairness, he has no need what so ever to hold a weight overhead.
Stupid? No. Unconventional? Yes.
in that same respect though, he has no need whatsoever to throw a weight forward such as he's doing.. The only thing he should worry about is improving hip extension/knee extension/knee flexion strength/power, general upper body/core strength, and training specific via mountain biking + mountain doing bike exercises in very difficult gears etc, imo.. Is he going to improve hip/knee extension/knee flexion more using that variation, or traditional variations such as snatch, clean/snatch PULLS, high pulls, squat etc? One major problem with that exercise would be how long it takes him to "reload", with traditional oly's and their variations, you can keep the intensity low/moderate & then target the energy systems more specifically towards mountain biking.. ie cluster sets of 10 reps on snatch high pull, etc..
so ya im confused at how that at all ties itself in with mountain biking.
peace jack
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What if you have weak shoulders (for the weight your legs are capable of propelling) and still want to snatch, but don't want to take years of training your shoulders to reach that level?
So you snatch with your shoulders? lol!
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it sort of looks like what you would do when you want to do a jump on a bike. Maybe he's trying to simulate that with weights so he can do higher jumps, just a guess.
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it sort of looks like what you would do when you want to do a jump on a bike. Maybe he's trying to simulate that with weights so he can do higher jumps, just a guess.
if true, that's some deeply flawed reasoning right there.
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What if you have weak shoulders (for the weight your legs are capable of propelling) and still want to snatch, but don't want to take years of training your shoulders to reach that level?
So you snatch with your shoulders? lol!
Well no but you do need some good isometric strength to keep a heavier bar over head.
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it sort of looks like what you would do when you want to do a jump on a bike. Maybe he's trying to simulate that with weights so he can do higher jumps, just a guess.
+1.
I think that's his exact reasoning for doing this exercise, being able to bunny hop & overcome obstacles/terrain much more efficiently.
Genius really.
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^^^ not sure if serious.
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it sort of looks like what you would do when you want to do a jump on a bike. Maybe he's trying to simulate that with weights so he can do higher jumps, just a guess.
lmfao :F
it sort of looks like what you would do when you want to do a jump on a bike. Maybe he's trying to simulate that with weights so he can do higher jumps, just a guess.
+1.
I think that's his exact reasoning for doing this exercise, being able to bunny hop & overcome obstacles/terrain much more efficiently.
Genius really.
lmfao x2
train with a heavier bike + get stronger throughout..... progressive overload... at some point 'specificity' can become a problem, especially in this case imo, because i still don't see how it is specific at all to mountain biking.
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I agree with adarq, this is a misconception of what specificity means. The goal is not to try to train as specific as possible (if that was the case, you would just do your sport and keep away from the weight room), you still need get stronger in what you do. If your training movement does not allow this to happen in an objectively measurable way, specificity becomes a useless concept. Aspects like time for force production, muscle groups involved in a movement, length of the kinetic chain etc. are more useful in determining specificity in my opinion. Would the guy do powersnatches and bent over rows he would probably get much faster progress for a much longer period of time than with this "exercise".
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I agree with adarq, this is a misconception of what specificity means. The goal is not to try to train as specific as possible (if that was the case, you would just do your sport and keep away from the weight room), you still need get stronger in what you do. If your training movement does not allow this to happen in an objectively measurable way, specificity becomes a useless concept. Aspects like time for force production, muscle groups involved in a movement, length of the kinetic chain etc. are more useful in determining specificity in my opinion. Would the guy do powersnatches and bent over rows he would probably get much faster progress for a much longer period of time than with this "exercise".
^^
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The goal is not to try to train as specific as possible (if that was the case, you would just do your sport and keep away from the weight room), you still need get stronger in what you do. If your training movement does not allow this to happen in an objectively measurable way, specificity becomes a useless concept. Aspects like time for force production, muscle groups involved in a movement, length of the kinetic chain etc. are more useful in determining specificity in my opinion. Would the guy do powersnatches and bent over rows he would probably get much faster progress for a much longer period of time than with this "exercise".
I disagree.
Remember, strength endurance (Mountain biking/road cycling) is characterized by a combination of great strength and significant endurance. - V. M. Zatsiorsky -
The goal off the bike would be to train as specific as possible in the weight room with exercises which employ that whole triple extension (hip/knee/ankle) as witnessed on the bike, which the OP's exercise has. Specificity can only take you so far (riding the bike), then it would be time for greater strength stimulation (weight room), although specificity (riding) will always remain king. Case in point, my power output on my road bike kept increasing the stronger I got with the deadlift & hip thrust. This is seen with track cyclists, very strong guys that can put out huge levels of power. The OP would benefit more from his exercise than doing tricep extensions etc.
The only point I agree on is there are probably more optimal exercises. Maybe he just doesn't want to do powersnatches and bent over rows.
I can certainly see how this exercise would help a rider out, trust me. I ride bikes all the time, more road than mountain biking, mainly to get my hip flexors super explosive for sprinting. The big difference I find is upper body soreness after mountain biking.
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train with a heavier bike + get stronger throughout.....
How would you load the bike? (make it heavier).
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you would have to either buy yourself a new heavier bike or use someone elses, hardly convenient.
For those laughing and being rude about what I said: "it sort of looks like what you would do when you want to do a jump on a bike. Maybe he's trying to simulate that with weights so he can do higher jumps, just a guess"
I never said it was the right thing to do, I was merely suggesting what the guy in the video might be trying to use it for. If you can think of any better reasons he might be doing it then let us know. Who knows, it might be working wonders for him... ? But then again it might not.
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This is a stupid exercise.
It is only a stupid exercise if he is going to get hurt, or it isn't going to meet his training goals. He likes to do it, he feels it is very safe, and from my discussions with him and the nature of his sport, it would appear that, while unconventional, it is helping him develop his full body power.
Maybe he could do a regular snatch but then that does require a bit more balance and ROM, and in fairness, he has no need what so ever to hold a weight overhead.
Stupid? No. Unconventional? Yes.
That exercise sucks, and has no purpose. This is even more pathetic considering that you call yourself a 'coach'.
You should go check out the 'level 7' exercises if you're into doing stupid shit.
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The goal off the bike would be to train as specific as possible in the weight room with exercises which employ that whole triple extension (hip/knee/ankle) as witnessed on the bike, which the OP's exercise has. Specificity can only take you so far (riding the bike), then it would be time for greater strength stimulation (weight room), although specificity (riding) will always remain king. Case in point, my power output on my road bike kept increasing the stronger I got with the deadlift & hip thrust. This is seen with track cyclists, very strong guys that can put out huge levels of power. The OP would benefit more from his exercise than doing tricep extensions etc.
Which exercise(s) would allow you to use more weight:
a) The OPs exercise
b) The powersnatch and bent over row
If you come to the same conclusion as me, namely that b) allows more weight, which exercises do you think will benefit the development of muscular strength and power more? The answer is b) as well, because exercises that allow more weight, will also allow more progress over a longer period of time. Making the transfer of that strength to the bike is going to be accomplished with doing stuff on the bike (specificity), but the physical prerequisites in terms of muscle strength are best developed in the weight room with solid exercises that allow a lot of weight to be moved over a great range of motion and with the use of the most muscle mass possible.
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The goal off the bike would be to train as specific as possible in the weight room with exercises which employ that whole triple extension (hip/knee/ankle) as witnessed on the bike, which the OP's exercise has. Specificity can only take you so far (riding the bike), then it would be time for greater strength stimulation (weight room), although specificity (riding) will always remain king. Case in point, my power output on my road bike kept increasing the stronger I got with the deadlift & hip thrust. This is seen with track cyclists, very strong guys that can put out huge levels of power. The OP would benefit more from his exercise than doing tricep extensions etc.
Which exercise(s) would allow you to use more weight:
a) The OPs exercise
b) The powersnatch and bent over row
If you come to the same conclusion as me, namely that b) allows more weight, which exercises do you think will benefit the development of muscular strength and power more? The answer is b) as well, because exercises that allow more weight, will also allow more progress over a longer period of time. Making the transfer of that strength to the bike is going to be accomplished with doing stuff on the bike (specificity), but the physical prerequisites in terms of muscle strength are best developed in the weight room with solid exercises that allow a lot of weight to be moved over a great range of motion and with the use of the most muscle mass possible.
x2
"The goal off the bike would be to train as specific as possible in the weight room with exercises which employ that whole triple extension (hip/knee/ankle) as witnessed on the bike, which the OP's exercise has." -- sickenin vendetta
It's never about training as specific as possible in the weight room. There's a degree of specificity that needs to occur, but, as you increase the level of specificity, you decrease the ability to cause gains in maximal strength. Maximal strength is the umbrella which makes all things possible. That exercise can only get you so far. Let's just imagine that it was effective & specific, thus allowing for significant transfer to mountain biking (which I doubt). That exercise would only be good to improve explosive strength SLIGHTLY, specific to mountain biking. There's just not enough room for progressive overload, time under tension, or appropriate loading of the actual muscle groups/movements of the human body. Heavy squatting alone would raise someone's ability to generate more force in a variety of movements specific to mountain biking. Power snatch is a much more sane version of loading the muscle groups & movements specific to mountain biking, it allows for more progress via addition of load than the OP's exercise. The problem with power snatch alone is that it would fail for the same reasons that the OP's exercise would fail, time under tension & the ability to increase load without progressing max strength will result in far less ability to make long term gains, but this is far more of a problem in the OP's exercise than with power snatching/power cleaning/oly power variants.
Take for example people who train using loaded jumps & completely neglect max strength training. They might achieve a few inches of gains, but long term, they will hardly achieve anything significant. They will stagnate forever unless proper max strength training is incorporated.
If you want to improve triple extension, you have to improve max strength in the various movements that make up the triple extension: knee extension, hip extension, and plantar flexion. That can be done via:
- isolation (calve raises, glute bridges/hypers, knee extensions)
- multi joint (squat, oly variants)
- special exercises (bounds/depth jumps, oly variants + other power variants)
- specificity (doing movements specific to your sport/event, ie mountain biking, jumping, sprinting etc)
etc
Specificity is a topic that is completely understood for the most part imo.. For example, the specificity between a half squat & deep squat is significant, one allows you to overload the most important prime movers for jumping significantly whilst the other does not. However, the difference between IMPROVEMENTS in max/explosive strength potential between half squatting and loaded jumps, is HUGE. Half squatting improvement causes considerable adaptations to the human organism, while loaded jumps does not. Stress is very important. The more specific you get, generally, the amount stress decreases. For example,
- loaded jumps (very specific) vs half squat (less specific)
- riding a bike in an easy gear @ max effort vs riding a bike in a very hard gear @ max effort
The only caveat to all of that, is shocklike exercises, such as depth jumps and downhill sprinting. Those are extremely specific yet extremely intensive, but that's a whole different monster because you're using "shock" to target protective mechanisms of the CNS, you can't do that with snatches, OP's exercise, loaded jumps, etc.
peace
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I agree with the past 2 posts.
Like I stated, there are probably more optimal exercises. Maybe he just doesn't want to do powersnatches and bent over rows?.
I think one advantage would be that the OP's exercise creates less CNS fatigue which could be best spent on actual mountain biking.
Original Link: http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2006/10/what-muscles-are-you-using-to-pedal.html
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Some good discussion here and to those who would prescribe different exercises for triple extension, upper body power - well so would I. However, it is an exercise he clearly likes doing, and so instead of flat out saying no, I actually did something that I am sure most of the critics in this thread would never do and that is I went out and tried it this weekend. Here is what I found
1) It is infinitely easier on the shoulder joints than regular snatches which given he doesn't need to go overhead is a useful thing to have.
2) It does provide good simultaneous stimulus for the triple extension and the upper back/deltoid area, which in his sport is something he uses (which isn't downhill mountain biking, it is bike technic, which involves a lot of jumping from rocks to logs and other random objects on your bike in an obstacle course type situation against the clock. I should clear that up. The bikes are actually more like a BMX bike).
3) It is a safe movement (aside from the jumping right in front of the step business which I have recommended he not do going forward as it does strike me as trip hazard).
I am truly surprised that some of you do not seem to understand that in training enjoying the exercises is a very good, motivational thing, especially given that it suits his goals, and is safe to perform. Part of being a good coach is working WITH the athlete, not just telling them what to do all the time regardless of their input. If it is a little unconventional, well, frankly, I don't care. I will keep on having an open mind to new things and leave the rigid thinkers to themselves.
Anyway here is a video of him and another guy in action.
http://vimeo.com/23908281
They are pretty impressive at what they do (although there is a few crashes in this one. Interestingly if you watch at the 0.35 mark and again at the 1.30 mark there are a couple of good examples of them using a similar motion on their bikes
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Also just re-reading some of the posts and I see some of you mentioned heavier bikes etc. Certainly that is a possibility but also not always achievable given the $ required for two bikes, and also the high skill component to this sport I would prefer him to use more convenient means to do this type of work (such as in a weight room) and just focus on his skill work when out riding.
Another consideration I didn't mention previously because I thought it was pretty obvious (but apparently not) is that this is one exercise in his program. I have him do regular strength work as well as a variety of other triple extension exercises of the unweighted and weighted kind.
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Slightly off topic, I must have watch Karol's videos 100's of times and I only just realized their bikes have no seats. :ninja:
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Some good discussion here and to those who would prescribe different exercises for triple extension, upper body power - well so would I. However, it is an exercise he clearly likes doing, and so instead of flat out saying no, I actually did something that I am sure most of the critics in this thread would never do and that is I went out and tried it this weekend. Here is what I found
1) It is infinitely easier on the shoulder joints than regular snatches which given he doesn't need to go overhead is a useful thing to have.
2) It does provide good simultaneous stimulus for the triple extension and the upper back/deltoid area, which in his sport is something he uses (which isn't downhill mountain biking, it is bike technic, which involves a lot of jumping from rocks to logs and other random objects on your bike in an obstacle course type situation against the clock. I should clear that up. The bikes are actually more like a BMX bike).
3) It is a safe movement (aside from the jumping right in front of the step business which I have recommended he not do going forward as it does strike me as trip hazard).
Some questions / comments to you, Jack.
1) In how far are snatches "hard on the shoulder joints"? I don't find that to be the case at all, unless you have shoulder condition / flexibility issues, or you are lifting some pretty impressive poundages.
Also, isn't having stronger and more stable shoulders due to pressing, snatching and chin-upping something good for everyone and especially for an athlete regardless of sport?
2) Do you agree that it provides inferior stimulus to more conventional exercises, as has been brought forward in this thread several times now?
3) Maybe its safe, maybe not. How did you determine that?
I am truly surprised that some of you do not seem to understand that in training enjoying the exercises is a very good, motivational thing, especially given that it suits his goals, and is safe to perform. Part of being a good coach is working WITH the athlete, not just telling them what to do all the time regardless of their input. If it is a little unconventional, well, frankly, I don't care. I will keep on having an open mind to new things and leave the rigid thinkers to themselves.
I can see the connection between training motivation and training success very well. But I also see a clear connection between a good training program utilizing the best suited exercises and training success.
Did you actually teach him the powersnatch, the row and the overhead press? If so, did he dislike the exercises that much that he came up with this movement? Or did he even give them a try to see what they do to his performance? You know, other then fun in training, getting serious results can be a pretty strong motivator for many people as well...
I hope you don't disregard my points as "rigid thinking". I am a pretty open minded person, but I still see a difference between a good new idea and a bad new idea.
Regards,
s-m
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Hi Steven
I definitely wasn't referring to you as a rigid thinker. You definitely strike me as open minded.
So to your questions
1) I was talking in terms of shoulder flexibility/mobility. I have seen a lot of athletes over the years that don't have the necessary ROM to correctly perform overhead lifts with a bar.
Generally speaking I do not believe stronger and more stable shoulders are necessary regardless of sport. You definitely have to take the sport into consideration. In this sport though, stronger shoulders are clearly going to be advantageous.
2) After playing around with the exercise myself,talking to him, and watching the videos I am now of the very clear in my belief that in the context of his entire program that this exercise will provide as good a stimulus as some of the alternative exercises mentioned. If I didn't think it would then I would obviously not be doing my job as a coach because I would be advocating inferior methods.
I would like to add here that when i saw the video, my first impression was similar to yours, that there were better, more effective and safer alternatives. After discussing it with him and also doing it myself (and also looking at his total program again yesterday, which already includes rows) I have no issue with this exercise.
3) How do I know it is safe. 20 years of training, 15 years of coaching, experience mostly. I have tried enough different exercises over the years to get a good feel pretty quickly about the value and safety of an exercise, I know that might seem like a cop out but I am sure anybody here who has trained for an extended period and tried many different things will have enough body awareness to know if something feels ok or feels wrong. This took no time to learn and actually feels quite good to do.
"You know, other then fun in training, getting serious results can be a pretty strong motivator for many people as well..." Steve Miller
Steve, I agree 100% with what your quote. If I thought in anyway it was going to be detrimental to his performance on the bike then I would have had no hesitation to have him stop doing it.
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1) I was talking in terms of shoulder flexibility/mobility. I have seen a lot of athletes over the years that don't have the necessary ROM to correctly perform overhead lifts with a bar.
Generally speaking I do not believe stronger and more stable shoulders are necessary regardless of sport. You definitely have to take the sport into consideration. In this sport though, stronger shoulders are clearly going to be advantageous.
Which kind of athlete, other than an injured one, is not able to press or hold stuff overhead? And even if those exist, this does not mean that doing presses or snatches are "hard on their shoulders". To the contrary, doing those exercises will train and strengthen this ROM, which is useful to every human being, not just sports people. Your argumentation seems to be that since some athletes do not use this ROM in their sport, they should not train it. I disagree quite strongly about that. In fact I believe that everyone who is capable of doing so would do himself/herself a gigantic favor in training his/her whole body to a certain degree at least.
2) After playing around with the exercise myself,talking to him, and watching the videos I am now of the very clear in my belief that in the context of his entire program that this exercise will provide as good a stimulus as some of the alternative exercises mentioned. If I didn't think it would then I would obviously not be doing my job as a coach because I would be advocating inferior methods.
I would like to add here that when i saw the video, my first impression was similar to yours, that there were better, more effective and safer alternatives. After discussing it with him and also doing it myself (and also looking at his total program again yesterday, which already includes rows) I have no issue with this exercise.
I think in this case you have provided us with insufficient information because you are arguing that the exercise has to be evaluated in the context of the rest of his program - which I agree with. But then you should at least roughly present the programming you use for this athlete when you ask about opinions on this exercise. Because I still cannot think of a way in which this exercise will work as well as powersnatches and rows for example.
3) How do I know it is safe. 20 years of training, 15 years of coaching, experience mostly. I have tried enough different exercises over the years to get a good feel pretty quickly about the value and safety of an exercise, I know that might seem like a cop out but I am sure anybody here who has trained for an extended period and tried many different things will have enough body awareness to know if something feels ok or feels wrong. This took no time to learn and actually feels quite good to do.
I am fine enough with that. Hope your intuition is correct.