Author Topic: Joint by joint vert (Read 21320 times)

Raptor · « **on:** August 10, 2012, 12:06:58 pm »

http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/jointbyjointvert.html

Excellent article^^^

pelham32 · « **Reply #1 on:** August 10, 2012, 12:30:47 pm »

Yes, Kelly has a similar section in his VJB 2.0, I like his explanations in finding an athletes weakness or dominance by each joint. But I think doing one knee extension compound movement like the squat, then a hip extension dominant movement , and an ankle extension dominant movement every session would be the bang for the buck as it hits the hips twice with two exercises and the knee extensors and calves once with just with one exercise. This should prevent quad over dominance but still gets trained while training both the hip extension and ankle extension. So all joints get worked. Kelly did provide good tests for assessment none the less

steven-miller · « **Reply #2 on:** August 10, 2012, 06:43:45 pm »

When your squat gets stronger, so do the muscles around hips and knees. Therefore you have the potential to jump higher.
If one muscle group, that is needed in a compound exercise, happens to be underdeveloped, then it will develop faster than other muscle groups if you do that compound exercise correctly. So if you are "quad dominant" this will take care of itself if you increase your squat utilizing correct mechanics. That is because a given weight on the bar during squats will be a more severe stress for the weak hips compared to the quads IF you happen to squat correctly and not compensate for your muscular irregularity.

Therefore one can forget about the diagnostics and focus instead on learning and executing exercises properly, in a way that increases hip and quad strength rather evenly for most individuals, and make the weight on the bar go up. The rest will take care of itself.

Kellyb · « **Reply #3 on:** August 11, 2012, 10:32:11 am »

Quote from: pelham32 on August 10, 2012, 12:30:47 pm

I think doing one knee extension compound movement like the squat, then a hip extension dominant movement , and an ankle extension dominant movement every session would be the bang for the buck as it hits the hips twice with two exercises and the knee extensors and calves once with just with one exercise. This should prevent quad over dominance but still gets trained while training both the hip extension and ankle extension. So all joints get worked. Kelly did provide good tests for assessment none the less

Your thinking is on the right track. That's pretty much identical to my beginner template which is discussed in that section in the book. Squat, hip dominant movement, ankle dominant movement. Or a full routine: plyo movement, RFD movement (jump squat, clean, snatch) squat, hip extension movement, calf raise variation

For the last few years I've been using that template for beginners and it works absolutely wonderful.

Kellyb · « **Reply #4 on:** August 11, 2012, 10:36:55 am »

Quote from: steven-miller on August 10, 2012, 06:43:45 pm

When your squat gets stronger, so do the muscles around hips and knees. Therefore you have the potential to jump higher.
If one muscle group, that is needed in a compound exercise, happens to be underdeveloped, then it will develop faster than other muscle groups if you do that compound exercise correctly. So if you are "quad dominant" this will take care of itself if you increase your squat utilizing correct mechanics. That is because a given weight on the bar during squats will be a more severe stress for the weak hips compared to the quads IF you happen to squat correctly and not compensate for your muscular irregularity.

Therefore one can forget about the diagnostics and focus instead on learning and executing exercises properly, in a way that increases hip and quad strength rather evenly for most individuals, and make the weight on the bar go up. The rest will take care of itself.

That's pretty much true, one can get by with nothing but squats and zero ankle extensor or hip dominant work, but I think a 3 exercise regimen is more optimal. In my experience if people just do squats without supplemental hip extensor work they often become overly quad dominant over time. That might not happen if they focused on low bar squats though.

If we take the notion we're trying to strengthen the 3 power producing muscle groups cotributing to the vert as quickly as possible, I prefer a high bar squat and hip extension movement vs a low bar squat. A high bar squat is going to inherently have more quad activation and will built quad strength quicker. A front squat is even better, but it's kinda a pain in the ass.

I see what you're saying though and you make a valid point.

steven-miller · « **Reply #5 on:** August 11, 2012, 11:59:30 am »

Quote from: Kellyb on August 11, 2012, 10:36:55 am

That's pretty much true, one can get by with nothing but squats and zero ankle extensor or hip dominant work, but I think a 3 exercise regimen is more optimal. In my experience if people just do squats without supplemental hip extensor work they often become overly quad dominant over time. That might not happen if they focused on low bar squats though.

If we take the notion we're trying to strengthen the 3 power producing muscle groups cotributing to the vert as quickly as possible, I prefer a high bar squat and hip extension movement vs a low bar squat. A high bar squat is going to inherently have more quad activation and will built quad strength quicker. A front squat is even better, but it's kinda a pain in the ass.

I see what you're saying though and you make a valid point.

My squat example was really just to provide an illustration of why I believe that imbalances go away over time if you progressively overload an exercise utilizing mechanics that stress the over- and underdeveloped muscle groups to a similar degree. I share your opinion that ankle work and other exercises should be incorporated as well.

What I do not understand is your philosophy regarding the high-bar squat. You say that training it increases quad strength faster compared to low-bar *. This inevitably leads to comparatively weaker hips, which has to be compensated for via another exercise, that is primarily a hip extension movement. So you end up with two movements that favor either knee or hip extensors. In a low-bar squat you would instead use both muscle groups to a similar degree and get them stronger simultaneously and prevent imbalances from the start.

* I do not think this to be true. I find it more likely that HB squats just leave the hip extensors weaker. While I agree that the quads have to do a larger percentage of the work in the HB squat, the load that can be managed in this style is inferior to the LB variant. And since the knee joints can be worked over a similar ROM in both squat styles, it seems to me that the LB squat is better for VJ training as well. That is unless reality shows us that properly coached trainees' progress is faster for the HB vs. the LB squat over a meaningful time interval such as 4 months. I do not know whether this is the case, but it would be very, very surprising considering the universally observable phenomenon that exercises that allow for more weight to be used have a higher growth potential and are less prone to external and internal disturbances.

Raptor · « **Reply #6 on:** August 11, 2012, 12:35:26 pm »

Yeah and also I would add that doing two exercises, say a front squat and a RDL for quad and glute/ham development is hard to correlate.

Can you safely say a 100 kg front squat has the same effect on the quads as a 100 kg RDL does for the glutes and hams or not? Can you say, if you have a front squat/high bar squat of 100 kg and a RDL/hip thrust of 100 kg that you're completely balanced? How do you balance these two things when there are different levers, ROMs, supporting muscles etc at work?

LanceSTS · « **Reply #7 on:** August 11, 2012, 01:06:24 pm »

Quote from: steven-miller on August 11, 2012, 11:59:30 am

Quote from: Kellyb on August 11, 2012, 10:36:55 am
That's pretty much true, one can get by with nothing but squats and zero ankle extensor or hip dominant work, but I think a 3 exercise regimen is more optimal. In my experience if people just do squats without supplemental hip extensor work they often become overly quad dominant over time. That might not happen if they focused on low bar squats though.

If we take the notion we're trying to strengthen the 3 power producing muscle groups cotributing to the vert as quickly as possible, I prefer a high bar squat and hip extension movement vs a low bar squat. A high bar squat is going to inherently have more quad activation and will built quad strength quicker. A front squat is even better, but it's kinda a pain in the ass.

I see what you're saying though and you make a valid point.

My squat example was really just to provide an illustration of why I believe that imbalances go away over time if you progressively overload an exercise utilizing mechanics that stress the over- and underdeveloped muscle groups to a similar degree. I share your opinion that ankle work and other exercises should be incorporated as well.

What I do not understand is your philosophy regarding the high-bar squat. You say that training it increases quad strength faster compared to low-bar *. This inevitably leads to comparatively weaker hips, which has to be compensated for via another exercise, that is primarily a hip extension movement. So you end up with two movements that favor either knee or hip extensors. In a low-bar squat you would instead use both muscle groups to a similar degree and get them stronger simultaneously and prevent imbalances from the start.

* I do not think this to be true. I find it more likely that HB squats just leave the hip extensors weaker. While I agree that the quads have to do a larger percentage of the work in the HB squat, the load that can be managed in this style is inferior to the LB variant. And since the knee joints can be worked over a similar ROM in both squat styles, it seems to me that the LB squat is better for VJ training as well. That is unless reality shows us that properly coached trainees' progress is faster for the HB vs. the LB squat over a meaningful time interval such as 4 months. I do not know whether this is the case, but it would be very, very surprising considering the universally observable phenomenon that exercises that allow for more weight to be used have a higher growth potential and are less prone to external and internal disturbances.

Steven, it depends on how the low bar squat is done. You do it pretty damn upright, and done that way you will lose very little rom at the knee. This is not the way a lot of people low bar squat, and they end up sitting way back, not allowing much knee travel, driving their ass up and goodmorning the weight, doing much less work in a vertical force vector and from the quads.

Kellyb · « **Reply #8 on:** August 11, 2012, 02:00:20 pm »

What he said. The more upright the torso the more inherent quad activation you're going to get. In a low bar squat you have to start out with a certain degree of forward lean otherwise the bar will fall off your back. Do a low bar squat, then a high bar squat, then a front squat and note the differences. One fairly recent study compared half back squats, full high bar back squats, and full front squats and assessed how the gains translated into VJ gains - the front squats actually came out slightly ahead. IIRC the same sizes were fairly small, so more research needs to be done. That doesn't surprise me though considering those mirrored my own experiences. BUT, I still don't typically recommend the front squat unless someone just prefers doing it..it's too hard to load, too much technique, hurts too much - just not much of a fun movement IMO. And if someone prefers a low bar back squat over a high bar back squat I really have no problems with it in the grand scheme of things.

LanceSTS · « **Reply #9 on:** August 11, 2012, 05:55:07 pm »

Finally got a chance to read the article, I like it as usual. That test mentioned is one we use prior to guys getting tested in the vert,

I find it not only helps dominance assessment but also helps the actual vert in creating a straight line with no wasted movement.

Ive seen some nice increases almost instantly once the less efficient movement was corrected. In fact I had posted that for fun in my blog a while back.

http://www.adarq.org/forum/lancests-performance-blog/force-vector-test-svj/

Nice article. Come talk with us more often man!

steven-miller · « **Reply #10 on:** August 11, 2012, 06:21:42 pm »

Quote from: LanceSTS on August 11, 2012, 01:06:24 pm

Steven, it depends on how the low bar squat is done. You do it pretty damn upright, and done that way you will lose very little rom at the knee. This is not the way a lot of people low bar squat, and they end up sitting way back, not allowing much knee travel, driving their ass up and goodmorning the weight, doing much less work in a vertical force vector and from the quads.

I have to stay very upright because of my long torso. If I lean over more, the bar gets forward of the mid-foot. So correct LBBS technique will produce varying torso angles. This applies to high-bar as well if some basic assumptions about "good technique" are accepted (e.g. weight in balance over the whole foot).
Regarding how many people do the LBBS, here is what I wrote before:

Quote

Therefore one can forget about the diagnostics and focus instead on learning and executing exercises properly, in a way that increases hip and quad strength rather evenly for most individuals, and make the weight on the bar go up.

People not letting the knees travel forward much at all, that shift the weight towards the heel or who are GMing a weight are not doing what I said there.

Quote from: Kellyb on August 11, 2012, 02:00:20 pm

What he said. The more upright the torso the more inherent quad activation you're going to get. In a low bar squat you have to start out with a certain degree of forward lean otherwise the bar will fall off your back. Do a low bar squat, then a high bar squat, then a front squat and note the differences. One fairly recent study compared half back squats, full high bar back squats, and full front squats and assessed how the gains translated into VJ gains - the front squats actually came out slightly ahead. IIRC the same sizes were fairly small, so more research needs to be done. That doesn't surprise me though considering those mirrored my own experiences. BUT, I still don't typically recommend the front squat unless someone just prefers doing it..it's too hard to load, too much technique, hurts too much - just not much of a fun movement IMO. And if someone prefers a low bar back squat over a high bar back squat I really have no problems with it in the grand scheme of things.

I think that you would get similar quad activation values in a one-repetition-maximum attempt on LBBS and HBBS and a lower value in front squats. The deciding factor would be which element in the kinetic chain would fail if 1 kg more was on the bar. It is often the quads that fail in the LBBS and HBBS (a miss in the front-squat is usually caused by a failure to keep the torso upright, which is not a function of the quads). The fact that the quads are the limiting factor even in the LBBS is demonstrated by the common observation that inexperienced athletes good-morning the weight when it gets very heavy. This takes stress off the quads and lets the hips do the rest of the work.

Regarding the study you spoke about, I would be interested to see the exact method used to come to this results. There are a number of ways one could investigate such a topic and I would expect vastly different outcomes depending on study design and statistical analyses used.

Quote from: LanceSTS on August 11, 2012, 05:55:07 pm

Nice article. Come talk with us more often man!

I second that.

Raptor · « **Reply #11 on:** August 11, 2012, 06:34:21 pm »

Maybe you look too simplistic on things Steven. You can say stuff like "the quads can't do this or can't do that" but the question is - are they supposed to do the majority of work?

What I mean is that if you can't "reach" your glutes and make them work in the squat the quads will overload a ton and try to compensate the lack of glute drive by working more, and they will fail and you might end up thinking "oh, I have weak quads, look at them fail", when in reality they weren't supposed to get overloaded like that in the first place if the glutes were to actually do their job.

So you gotta take that into account as well - sometimes the failure of a group of muscles is a direct effect of the weakness of another group of muscles.

steven-miller · « **Reply #12 on:** August 11, 2012, 06:58:43 pm »

Quote from: Raptor on August 11, 2012, 06:34:21 pm

Maybe you look too simplistic on things Steven. You can say stuff like "the quads can't do this or can't do that" but the question is - are they supposed to do the majority of work?

What I mean is that if you can't "reach" your glutes and make them work in the squat the quads will overload a ton and try to compensate the lack of glute drive by working more, and they will fail and you might end up thinking "oh, I have weak quads, look at them fail", when in reality they weren't supposed to get overloaded like that in the first place if the glutes were to actually do their job.

So you gotta take that into account as well - sometimes the failure of a group of muscles is a direct effect of the weakness of another group of muscles.

So which muscle group do YOU think is most likely to fail in a LBBS vs. HBBS?

LanceSTS · « **Reply #13 on:** August 11, 2012, 07:03:47 pm »

This is the same kid. Former Rip trainee so I would assume his form is accepted as "good" on the low bar squat.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuA_49PtFJA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuA_49PtFJA</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYeDpZfzEUY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYeDpZfzEUY</a>

Do you see the quads going through the same range of motion in both videos? Do you not think the second video shows a different force vector line, more similar to a deadlift, while the first shows a more similar movement pattern to a front squat?

steven-miller · « **Reply #14 on:** August 11, 2012, 07:51:42 pm »

Quote from: LanceSTS on August 11, 2012, 07:03:47 pm

Do you see the quads going through the same range of motion in both videos? Do you not think the second video shows a different force vector line, more similar to a deadlift, while the first shows a more similar movement pattern to a front squat?

It is not exactly the same ROM but I'd lie if I said the degree of flexion of the knee joint at the deepest position looked substantially different. But certainly, the knee joint will be a bit more closed in the HBBS compared to the LBBS, so I guess I can see your point.

Which force vector line are you talking about?

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Author Topic: Joint by joint vert (Read 21320 times)

Raptor

Joint by joint vert

pelham32

Re: Joint by joint vert

steven-miller

Re: Joint by joint vert

Kellyb

Re: Joint by joint vert

Kellyb

Re: Joint by joint vert

steven-miller

Re: Joint by joint vert

Raptor

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LanceSTS

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Kellyb

Re: Joint by joint vert

LanceSTS

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steven-miller

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Raptor

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steven-miller

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LanceSTS

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steven-miller

Re: Joint by joint vert