Adarq.org
Performance Area => Article & Video Discussion => Topic started by: TKXII on April 17, 2010, 05:50:42 pm
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Posted this here because I think this is worthy of discussion. I thought of this exercise only a few months ago. And it mimics the RVJ more than any other exercise I've seen anyone do. Check it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4vg1VnFaHI
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my jaw dropped at like 1:15 when you just come flying out of nowhere, doing a run up into a deadlift.. that was WTF.
pretty creative man, i'm not one who follows that kind of ideology, but i am interested to see what kind of results you get. Are you feeling any of these lifts in your lower back ? Make sure you're not putting all of that stress on LB, especially when transitioning right from a run up.. I mean, if you start getting too heavy and you can't avoid LB, you might want to do this lift off blocks/pins so you can keep spine neutral.
Called, the RVJ lift. I train quite eccentrically; I have decided to aboandon exercises which do not mimic the following: A block start, full speed sprinting, a running vertical jump off two feet, a running vertical jump off of one foot, and a few other motions for the triple jump
In the running vertical jump (RVJ), the legs are usually used differently; one leg uses more of the posterior chain, and the other lifts uses more quads and achilles. In a regular back squat, both legs are doing the same thing. When I thought of this exercise I was ecstatic, because it mimics the RVJ ALMOST COMPLETELY; only the arm swing is not involved, and the back may be used a little more depending on your form. In my last attempt, I used my back way too much.
Lastly, notice my grip. If the left leg is behind the bar, the palm of the left hand points forward. In this case, the right leg is in front of the bar, and the palm of the right hand points behind you.
I'll write more about this on my blog, therawhigh.blogspot.com, when I find some time. TRY THIS LIFT! This was a max attempt, at 275 lbs, and a personal record for me. My goal is to get this to 400 by September 1st.
ya man i would caution against "using back too much" in that fashion, i mean, if you are using LB too much, that takes away alot of the specificity to RVJ too.
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how does the lower back contribute to the vertical jump exactly, either one or two feet, standing/running
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how does the lower back contribute to the vertical jump exactly, either one or two feet, standing/running
it shouldn't really contribute much at all, in terms of hyperextension impacting vert.
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yeah adarq I agree that you shoudn't use LB too much. But w/this exercise Iit is possible to get into a deep squat postion and use mostly the glutes and quads as in normal squat.
MUCH less LB used than deadlift and backsquat, think about it a little bit; the bar is in b/w the legs, directly below the hips (in front of the hips in the running version), which allows me to activate the glutes more than the lower back than in a regular deadlift.
Yeah so in the vid there are 2 versions, a 1 step, and standing. In the 1 step it is easier to not use lower back with proper form. In the standing version it just takes some effort to not get lazy and use the lower back.
I just took a vid of my max attempt at 275, then for the rest of the workout I did 225.
Oh and what freaks me out is, the day after, well for two days after I do this exercise, my glute-activation increases; when I walk up the stairs i feel the burn in my glutes, but usually i tend to walk up with quads more . . . very interesting
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how does the lower back contribute to the vertical jump exactly, either one or two feet, standing/running
it shouldn't really contribute much at all, in terms of hyperextension impacting vert.
I think it definitely contributes something minor, a very fast contraction, . . I've felt tweaks there from doing full speed RVJs, just like in a long jump attempt sometimes my abdominals forcefully contract sometime after the jump, and the back as well
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Bulgarian split squats are a good exercise that takes alot of the LB out of it
looks like a cool exercise though, good job
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That is horrible for your back the way you are performing them.
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:D ??? :D ??? :D ??? :D ???
Hahahaha what the hell?
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I thought it was a joke before all the normal sounding posts after it.
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Ok adam, before you think you know what this is before trying it, try it. Yes this was a max lift, so only when my left leg is the plant leg, is my form minimally involving the back, you can see this in the deep squat like position. COming in with the right leg as the plant leg I did use back more. DIdn't I write that in the desscription?
And the bad for your back/knees/joints/whatver usually is the result of terrible diet that promotes inflammation and never properly heals. I can do the worst shit for my joints, incredibly high depth drops, high velocity exercises with dumbells, and I don't ever seem to suffer.
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Yet... :D
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Ok adam, before you think you know what this is before trying it, try it. Yes this was a max lift, so only when my left leg is the plant leg, is my form minimally involving the back, you can see this in the deep squat like position. COming in with the right leg as the plant leg I did use back more. DIdn't I write that in the desscription?
And the bad for your back/knees/joints/whatver usually is the result of terrible diet that promotes inflammation and never properly heals. I can do the worst shit for my joints, incredibly high depth drops, high velocity exercises with dumbells, and I don't ever seem to suffer.
Are you like 15? I could have done repeated drops off a high rise without joint pain at your age. It will catch up. This exercise is retardedly bad for you.
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Ok adam, before you think you know what this is before trying it, try it. Yes this was a max lift, so only when my left leg is the plant leg, is my form minimally involving the back, you can see this in the deep squat like position. COming in with the right leg as the plant leg I did use back more. DIdn't I write that in the desscription?
And the bad for your back/knees/joints/whatver usually is the result of terrible diet that promotes inflammation and never properly heals. I can do the worst shit for my joints, incredibly high depth drops, high velocity exercises with dumbells, and I don't ever seem to suffer.
Are you like 15? I could have done repeated drops off a high rise without joint pain at your age. It will catch up. This exercise is retardedly bad for you.
+1. This is the single most retarded exercise I have ever seen on the internet, and I have seen some bad ones. And trust me, we're being nice. The only reason I haven't linked to the vid on some less forgiving forums --and I know some people who would get a lot of enjoyment out of it-- is because you do look about 15. Too young to really deserve hardcore hate. But seriously, dude. Just stop. Stick to the basics.
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And the bad for your back/knees/joints/whatver usually is the result of terrible diet that promotes inflammation and never properly heals.
Also, this part is fucking hilarious and makes absolutely no sense.
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And the bad for your back/knees/joints/whatver usually is the result of terrible diet that promotes inflammation and never properly heals.
Also, this part is fucking hilarious and makes absolutely no sense.
ya, well diet definitely has it's impact on inflammation BUT, drops of all sorts put insane stress on the articular surface of the joints, such as knee etc.. drops from 30+" boxes into a stiff impact, really stresses the surface.
I remember seeing interesting studies on spinal shrinkage/articular surface fissures from 18" depth drops, albeit athletes can handle alot, but drops near max capacity are really going to stress the joints, regardless of diet IMO.
pc
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I'm 19, and I don't care how unforgiving anyone is about this. That would make me a bigger pussy than yourself LBSS, and the other kid who has the confidence to debase people behind a computer. I would argue with you, but it would cause my brain to atrophy.
I doubt you will overcome your ego to try this exercise, but if you did, you would realize there is less pressure on your back than in a squat/deadlift. One of the reasons I came up with this is so I wouldn't have to put so much load on my lower back from those exercises...
And adarq the body has a tremendous capacity to recover. A broken back is a lot worse than a few 100 inch depth jumps, but I can provide a couple examples of people who have the knowledge of incredible healing, through diet: Dr. Robert Cassar, David Wolfe. Both broke their backs somehow and are just thriving now on foods that promote healing; unprocessed, nutrient rich food. Joint problems are almost always diet related, provide me an example to refute what I'm saying...
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We don't have to prove the norm, you need to disprove the norm and prove your ridiculous claim.
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And adarq the body has a tremendous capacity to recover. A broken back is a lot worse than a few 100 inch depth jumps, but I can provide a couple examples of people who have the knowledge of incredible healing, through diet: Dr. Robert Cassar, David Wolfe. Both broke their backs somehow and are just thriving now on foods that promote healing; unprocessed, nutrient rich food. Joint problems are almost always diet related, provide me an example to refute what I'm saying...
Well, I'd have to look into those names you listed to comment about their recovery, don't know much about them. I am wary of people though, who promote pretty miraculous accomplishments through changes in diet etc.
Here's one of the studies I was talking about:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WB5-45NHYVG-HT&_user=10&_coverDate=09%2F10%2F1995&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1304848429&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=149fa6807bbf7c6e38243927155d3076
Matrix Damage and Chondrocyte Viability Following a Single Impact Load on Articular-Cartilage
Purchase the full-text article
References and further reading may be available for this article. To view references and further reading you must purchase this article.
Jeffrey J. E., Gregory D. W. and Aspden R. M.
Univ Aberdeen, Dept Orthopaed, Aberdeen AB9 2ZD, Scotland and Univ Aberdeen, Foresterhill Electron Microscopy Unit, Aberdeen AB9 2ZD, Scotland
Available online 24 April 2002.
Abstract
An impact load was applied to full-depth circular samples of articular cartilage in vitro and the effects of impact energy and velocity on matrix integrity and chondrocyte viability were studied. Following a severe impact, calculated to correspond to the energy density over the cartilage surface that might be expected in a manjumping off a 1-m-high wall, the tissue was grossly disrupted. It became elliptical, fissured, and flattened. Cartilage samples remaining attached to the underlying bone showed less damage at similar drop masses and heights. Chondrocyte viability was found to decrease linearly with increasing impact energy. Cartilage biopsies maintained in culture for up to 15 days following impact gained mass over the first 3 days which they did not subsequently lose. The gain in mass increased with the severity of impact and was due to an increased hydration of the tissue. Scanning electron microscopy and light microscopy showed fissures penetrating the tissue but which were never found to pass through the full depth. They were commonly oriented at about 45° to the plane of the surface and gave the appearance of being deflected parallel to the surface on reaching the transition zone. This produced a "delaminating" effect where the surface zone was separating from the deep zone.
http://ajsm.highwire.org/content/25/6/873.short
Athletics and Osteoarthritis
1. Joseph A. Buckwalter, MD
1.
Department of Orthopaedic Surgery, University of Iowa Hospitals and Clinics, Iowa City, Iowa
1. Nancy E. Lane, MD
1.
Division of Rheumatology, University of California at San Francisco, San Francisco, California
Abstract
Athletes, and an increasing number of middle aged and older people who want to participate in athletics, may question whether regular vigorous physical activ ity increases their risk of developing osteoarthritis. To answer this, the clinical syndrome of osteoarthritis must be distinguished from periarticular soft tissue pain associated with activity and from the development of osteophytes. Sports that subject joints to repetitive high levels of impact and torsional loading increase the risk of articular cartilage degeneration and the resulting clinical syndrome of osteoarthritis. However, moderate habitual exercise does not increase the risk of osteo arthritis ; selected sports improve strength and mobility in older people and people with mild and moderate osteoarthritis. People with abnormal joint anatomy or alignment, previous significant joint injury or surgery, joint instability, above-average body weight, distur bances of joint or muscle innervation or inadequate muscle strength probably have increased risk of osteo arthritis. These people and those with early osteoar thritis can benefit from regular physical activity, but they should have a careful evaluation of their joint structure and function before participation. They should consider measures that decrease the intensity and frequency of impact and torsional loading of joints, including use of sports equipment that decreases joint impact loading, maintaining or improving muscle strength, tone, and general conditioning so that muscle contractions help protect joints from injury and high impact, and decreasing body weight.
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a779153117&db=all
Spinal shrinkage in unloaded and loaded drop-jumping
Authors: N. E. Fowler a; A. Lees a;T. Reilly a
Abstract
Plyometric activities, engaging the muscle in a stretch-shortening cycle, arc widely used in athletic training. One such plyometric exercise is drop-jumping, where the athlete drops from a raised platform and immediately on landing performs a maximal vertical jump. These actions are also performed with the athlete externally loaded by the addition of weights to provide greater resistance. Exercises which involve repeated impacts have been shown to give rise to a loss of stature (shrinkage) which can be measured by means of a sensitive sladiometer. This study examined (he shrinkage induced by unloaded and loaded drop-jumping from a height of 26 cm. Eight male subjects, aged 20-24 years, performed the test protocol three times, at the same time of day on each occasion. Fifty drop-jumps from a height of 26 cm were performed with no additional load and with a load of 8-5 kg carried in a weighted vest. The third condition was a standing trial where the subject stood for lOmin (the time taken to perform the jumps) wearing the weighted vest. Stature was measured before exercise, immediately after exercise and after a 20 min standing recovery. On a separate occasion the regimen was performed and the vertical reaction force was measured using a Kistler force platform. The mean change in stature for the two jump conditions showed shrinkages of 0 62 (±0-43) mm for unloaded and 2-14 (± 1-56) mm for the loaded (p < 0-05). The variance in shrinkage was greater in the loaded case compared to the unloaded condition (p < 0.05) indicating a wider range of jumping strategies. Force platform data showed average peak vertical reaction forces of 3-90 (± 0.66) x body weight and 4 11 ( ± 0>54) x body weight for the unloaded and loaded conditions, respectively (p<005), The rate of force loading rose from 20742 ( ±4336)Ns-1 to 28089 ( ± 5116)Ns-1 (p < 005) when the weighted vest was added. There was no correlation between force data and the degree of shrinkage. Results reflect the greater physical stress of loaded drop-jumping compared to unloaded.
http://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/Abstract/1990/12000/Running_speed_and_spinal_shrinkage_in_runners_with.6.aspx
Running speed and spinal shrinkage in runners with and without low back pain
GARBUTT, G.; BOOCOCK, M. G.; REILLY, T.; TROUP, J. D. G.
Collapse Box
Abstract
Decreases in stature (shrinkage) are used to indicate exercise induced spinal loading. This study examined the effect of three running speeds on two groups of runners, one with chronic low back pain. The two groups of seven male marathon runners ran at 70%, 85%, and 100% of their marathon race pace for 30 min on separate occasions. Before and after exercise the subjects were seated for 20 min with the lumbar spine supported. Stature was measured before pre-exercise sitting, before running, after 15 min of running, after 30 min of running, and after post-exercise sitting. A stadiometer accurate to within 0.5 mm was used to record changes in stature. Results showed no differences in response to the three running regimens between the groups (P > 0.05). Shrinkage was greater during the first 15 min, being 3.26 (+/- 2.78) mm compared with 2.12 (+/- 1.61) mm for the second 15 min of the run (P < 0.05). The faster the running speed the greater the resultant shrinkage. The 70%, 85%, and 100% conditions caused 3.37 (+/- 2.38), 5.10 (+/- 1.90), and 7.69 (+/- 3.69) mm of shrinkage, respectively (P < 0.005). These results suggest that low back pain is independent of the shrinkage induced by running. Further research is required to determine the effect of longer duration runs on spinal shrinkage.
there's probably a bunch more but i have to go, who knows what their diets were like, but the first study is pretty telling.
pc man
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Another good way to look at this stuff is to look at say, injuries/osteoarthritis in high jumpers/long jumpers etc..
here's just one because i got to go, but i've seen plenty:
http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00016470410001708060
High prevalence of hip arthrosis in former elite javelin throwers and high jumpers
41 athletes examined more than 10 years after retirement from competitive sports
Holger Schmitt, Dario Brocaiand Martin Lukoschek?
1Stiftung Orthopädische Universitätsklinik Heidelberg, Schlierbacher Landstr. 200a, 69118 Heidelberg, Germany
We studied the occurrence of hip arthrosis in 19 former elite javelin throwers and 22 former elite high jumpers 10 years or more after their retirement from competitive sports. Any restriction in the activities of daily living was assessed with an ADL-questionnaire. We compared the radiographic findings with male, ageand body mass index-matched controls (non-athletes). 22 of 38 hips in the javelin throwers (7 of 38 hips in the controls) and 15 of 44 hips in the high jumpers (6 of 44 hips in the controls) were classified as stage II or worse (Kellgren); hip arthrosis was commoner in both groups than in the controls. Despite considerable radiographic degenerative changes, the reduction of function in activities of daily living (FFbH score 96% in javelin throwers and 99% in high jumpers) was slight, as compared to a corresponding normal population.Javelin throwing and high jumping as competitive sports entail a high risk of subsequent hip arthrosis.
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Whoa, whoa, settle down there tiger. Let's not take this down to ad hominems. This is the internet, there are rules. First, no one was debasing YOU, we were just calling out the ridiculous EXERCISE that you posted a video of yourself doing. Second, it's probably bad for you even with perfect form and it's definitely bad for you with the herky-jerky motion you use even while standing still, let alone while running up. Go watch a video of someone doing a sumo dead lift properly. Maybe this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r--etdWUmc0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r--etdWUmc0). You will notice that the dude sets, gets all the tension out of his arms and shoulders, and pulls smoothly off the ground. What you do is grab the bar and jerk upwards. Even your head jerks around. Sure, you might be getting stronger, but like Adam. said, the toll on your joints will catch up with you no matter how "clean" you eat.
Third, why are you trying to reinvent the wheel? Why not stick to what has worked for countless people for decades before you go out and try to come up with shit on your own?
Fourth, joint health or lack thereof is linked to diet at some level but it's also linked to trauma, particularly of the chronic variety. Just ask me, I'm 23 and have arthritis in my left big toe thanks to 6 years of fencing with improper form when I was in middle and high school. All the clean eating in the world would not have saved me. Check out the abstracts adarq posted. Or ask pitchers whose elbows and shoulders fall apart, or basketball players or offensive linemen who can barely walk because their knees are in crippling pain. Those are all extreme examples but I hope you see the point. Plenty of pro athletes have fantastic diets that they stick to like lunatics (because most pro athletes ARE lunatics at some level). Doesn't save their joints.
For more on "clean" eating, please see Alan Aragon (alanaragon.com). Or Lyle McDonald (bodyrecomposition.com). I used to believe in the "clean," "Paleo" BS. Even tried eating "Paleo" once upon a time. Thank god I got that over with.
Sigh, I can't even really keep hating from behind this here computer screen. The urge to help is too strong. Whether you think I'm being a condescending douche or listen to what I'm saying, or both, is up to you. You gotta do what you gotta do. Good luck.
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Here's one of the studies I was talking about:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WB5-45NHYVG-HT&_user=10&_coverDate=09%2F10%2F1995&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1304848429&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=149fa6807bbf7c6e38243927155d3076
That study is maaad sweet . . think about it, the cells recovered within 3 days and grew 60% greater than their original size (in a culture with weird chemicals in it I think? - so it does not reflect what would happen in the body) - but this brings to question, can we do a 1 rep exercise that increases our reactivity? I know you may think i'm crazy, but it makes sense to me. When I did maximal effort single leg drop jumps, I did 3 reps for each leg and I was done.
http://ajsm.highwire.org/content/25/6/873.short
Athletics and Osteoarthritis
1. Joseph A. Buckwalter, MD
1.
Department of Orthopaedic Surgery, University of Iowa Hospitals and Clinics, Iowa City, Iowa
1. Nancy E. Lane, MD
1.
Division of Rheumatology, University of California at San Francisco, San Francisco, California
Abstract
Athletes, and an increasing number of middle aged and older people who want to participate in athletics, may question whether regular vigorous physical activ ity increases their risk of developing osteoarthritis. To answer this, the clinical syndrome of osteoarthritis must be distinguished from periarticular soft tissue pain associated with activity and from the development of osteophytes. Sports that subject joints to repetitive high levels of impact and torsional loading increase the risk of articular cartilage degeneration and the resulting clinical syndrome of osteoarthritis. However, moderate habitual exercise does not increase the risk of osteo arthritis ; selected sports improve strength and mobility in older people and people with mild and moderate osteoarthritis. People with abnormal joint anatomy or alignment, previous significant joint injury or surgery, joint instability, above-average body weight, distur bances of joint or muscle innervation or inadequate muscle strength probably have increased risk of osteo arthritis. These people and those with early osteoar thritis can benefit from regular physical activity, but they should have a careful evaluation of their joint structure and function before participation. They should consider measures that decrease the intensity and frequency of impact and torsional loading of joints, including use of sports equipment that decreases joint impact loading, maintaining or improving muscle strength, tone, and general conditioning so that muscle contractions help protect joints from injury and high impact, and decreasing body weight.
Yeah that's cool, but it doesn't explain anything about diet. But it tells us to keep in mind to perform exercises that aim to increase bone density and thereby prevent these types of probs. (remember the triple jump study and those triple jumpers' bone density . . . maybe everyone should do plyos for increased bone density, but start slower if already injured or aged)
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a779153117&db=all
Spinal shrinkage in unloaded and loaded drop-jumping
Authors: N. E. Fowler a; A. Lees a;T. Reilly a
Abstract
Plyometric activities, engaging the muscle in a stretch-shortening cycle, arc widely used in athletic training. One such plyometric exercise is drop-jumping, where the athlete drops from a raised platform and immediately on landing performs a maximal vertical jump. These actions are also performed with the athlete externally loaded by the addition of weights to provide greater resistance. Exercises which involve repeated impacts have been shown to give rise to a loss of stature (shrinkage) which can be measured by means of a sensitive sladiometer. This study examined (he shrinkage induced by unloaded and loaded drop-jumping from a height of 26 cm. Eight male subjects, aged 20-24 years, performed the test protocol three times, at the same time of day on each occasion. Fifty drop-jumps from a height of 26 cm were performed with no additional load and with a load of 8-5 kg carried in a weighted vest. The third condition was a standing trial where the subject stood for lOmin (the time taken to perform the jumps) wearing the weighted vest. Stature was measured before exercise, immediately after exercise and after a 20 min standing recovery. On a separate occasion the regimen was performed and the vertical reaction force was measured using a Kistler force platform. The mean change in stature for the two jump conditions showed shrinkages of 0 62 (±0-43) mm for unloaded and 2-14 (± 1-56) mm for the loaded (p < 0-05). The variance in shrinkage was greater in the loaded case compared to the unloaded condition (p < 0.05) indicating a wider range of jumping strategies. Force platform data showed average peak vertical reaction forces of 3-90 (± 0.66) x body weight and 4 11 ( ± 0>54) x body weight for the unloaded and loaded conditions, respectively (p<005), The rate of force loading rose from 20742 ( ±4336)Ns-1 to 28089 ( ± 5116)Ns-1 (p < 005) when the weighted vest was added. There was no correlation between force data and the degree of shrinkage. Results reflect the greater physical stress of loaded drop-jumping compared to unloaded.
Ok this and the last two don't say anything regarding what I was talking about, and don't show the LONG TERM effects of their activities on their bone structure. But it's neat that this shrinkage occurs . . . parallel to muscle damage after weight training.
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Go watch a video of someone doing a sumo dead lift properly. Maybe this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r--etdWUmc0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r--etdWUmc0). You will notice that the dude sets, gets all the tension out of his arms and shoulders, and pulls smoothly off the ground. What you do is grab the bar and jerk upwards. Even your head jerks around. Sure, you might be getting stronger, but like Adam. said, the toll on your joints will catch up with you no matter how "clean" you eat.
My philosophy is to use momentum as required . . . with the joints in my spine, neck, shoulders, ankles, knees, hips, elbows...because that is what occurs during a vertical jump. During a sumo deadlift, you are sumo deadlifting. During this exercise I posted, you are performing a jump and it neeeds to be jerky. THis isn't unconventional wisdom really, but if you want to powerflit, powerlift. If you want to be an athlete you should use as much momentum as possible, unless you want to avoid using the joints that particular day. This day my joints were ready for it. As long as I know when my joints are ready for high impact stuff, and when they need to recover, I should be fine... Your fencing thing is also the result of diet, and it is still curable.
Squats don't work for me - I have mild scoliosis so extra pressure is on my lower back (since my upper back is curved). And deadlifts hit the back too much. THis is essentially a trap bar deadlift. This exercise was inspired by something I've seen form Nick Nillson, who performs weirder exercises that you would thinka re worse for your joints. Anyway, why are you even asking 'why I'm reinventing the wheel?' THe mere fact that your mind is clouded with that thought prevents you from being rational about this. I'm doing something that I think works and feels right for me.
I've followed lyle mcdonald for a while, he's awesome. However Alan aragon tries hard, but clean eating is a complex issue and no one has it down right. I eat fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, (including peanuts a legume), seaweeds, and fermented foods. That's clean, pasteurized dairy/chicken and 180 grams of peptide-bonded protein that is difficult tto digest. I haven't read everything form him though so I'll leave the browser open, he has some good stuff but I can't agree with all of it. I eat Raw Food, extremely beneficial, and the science is coming in now. Nutrition science is quite a new field..and there are a lot of questions being answered wrongly and correctly. If you trust what the FDA says, you're not enjoying the best health out there.
What is hilarious is that I had a HUGE debate on milk on mind and muscle forums, a great forum, and how I believe pasteurized milk really does kill your joints. You're not going to find a correct answer through large scale studies, because there are equal amounts showing it improves bone health and that it reduces or has absolutely no benefit to bones/muscle. It's the individual's special situation that determines if whatever food is right..but overall, pasteurized milk and other dairy products are linked to joint problems, and most importantly, are INFLAMMATORY. How do people come to this conclusion when there are so many LARGE studies showing the opposite? Small scale, CASE studies which provide us with a more narrow/specific insight, although there are enormous amounts of scientific data showing milk is not helping bone problems. My problem with large studies is that they disregard so many variables... and that people belive what the study says without questioning what was missing using their own logic.
Stop drinking dairy and your foot or whatever may improve. My friend was a workout buff and got injured all the time, he does not drink dairy anymore and seems to be doing better. It's these individual testimoies I trust more that extremely large studies which are generally easier to interpret than the more detailed specific case studies. Has anyone studied what happens to your joints after high impact loading consuming bee pollen, spirulina, colostrum, velvet deer antler, cacao, hemp seeds.... not yet, but I look forward to when I get the chance.
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i think ive read kelly mention that starchy carbs/processed wheats have a lot to do with joint pains, could be wrong
interesting training thoughts TKXII, whats your setup look like, you should start a log if you already dont have one
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Go watch a video of someone doing a sumo dead lift properly. Maybe this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r--etdWUmc0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r--etdWUmc0). You will notice that the dude sets, gets all the tension out of his arms and shoulders, and pulls smoothly off the ground. What you do is grab the bar and jerk upwards. Even your head jerks around. Sure, you might be getting stronger, but like Adam. said, the toll on your joints will catch up with you no matter how "clean" you eat.
My philosophy is to use momentum as required . . . with the joints in my spine, neck, shoulders, ankles, knees, hips, elbows...because that is what occurs during a vertical jump. During a sumo deadlift, you are sumo deadlifting. During this exercise I posted, you are performing a jump and it neeeds to be jerky. THis isn't unconventional wisdom really, but if you want to powerflit, powerlift. If you want to be an athlete you should use as much momentum as possible, unless you want to avoid using the joints that particular day.
Jumps aren't jerky, they're smooth and fluid. Or should be. Go watch the t-dub videos. Nothing about him is jerky. He's springy, but you look like someone just grabbed you and shook you hard. Of course, during a sumo dead lift, you are sumo dead lifting. You are also increasing the strength of your glutes, hams and spinal erectors. And, to a lesser extent, your arms, upper back and shoulders. All of which play a role in jumping. Just as there is no perfect transfer from sumo dead lifting to jumping, there is no perfect transfer from running up to the bar and jerking it towards your hips to jumping. The only perfect transfer to jumping is from jumping. The goal of strength training (unless, as you say, you're a power lifter) is to strengthen your muscles so that they will produce more force when you practice or perform athletic movements either on their own or while playing a sport.
Your fencing thing is also the result of diet, and it is still curable.
I have a bone spur in my left foot, on the first metatarsal of my left big toe. Repeated friction between the proximal phalanx and first metatarsal caused the cartilage to wear down and bone to grow in as a reaction. Fencing does not cause this problem in most people, but A) my posture was bad, and B) the surface of the proximal phalanx is too flat; I was born that way. Diet does not enter the equation in my case. Same as ligament tears, tennis elbow, pick your poison. Ask an orthopedic surgeon how big a role diet plays in herniated discs relative to chronic or acute trauma to the spine.
Squats don't work for me - I have mild scoliosis so extra pressure is on my lower back (since my upper back is curved). And deadlifts hit the back too much.
Fair enough.
THis is essentially a trap bar deadlift.
No, it's not. It's a straight-bar-straddling jerky dead lift. And anyway, why wouldn't you just do a trap bar dead lift? I've done jump squats with the trap bar. Feels great. I mean, I get that you're trying to use momentum but that...doesn't...make...sense.
This exercise was inspired by something I've seen form Nick Nillson, who performs weirder exercises that you would thinka re worse for your joints. Anyway, why are you even asking 'why I'm reinventing the wheel?' THe mere fact that your mind is clouded with that thought prevents you from being rational about this. I'm doing something that I think works and feels right for me.
I'm asking why you're reinventing the wheel because there are dozens of different exercises that have been used for decades if not centuries by the best athletes the world has ever seen, with great results and great safety. With such a large menu of effective, safe exercises, why would you try to come up with one on your own that might not be as effective as some other exercise that already exists, and might be unsafe? But what do I know? If you feel like you're making gains with it then knock yourself out.
I've followed lyle mcdonald for a while, he's awesome. However Alan aragon tries hard, but clean eating is a complex issue and no one has it down right. I eat fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, (including peanuts a legume), seaweeds, and fermented foods. That's clean, pasteurized dairy/chicken and 180 grams of peptide-bonded protein that is difficult tto digest. I haven't read everything form him though so I'll leave the browser open, he has some good stuff but I can't agree with all of it. I eat Raw Food, extremely beneficial, and the science is coming in now. Nutrition science is quite a new field..and there are a lot of questions being answered wrongly and correctly. If you trust what the FDA says, you're not enjoying the best health out there.
I would bet my life and the lives of my immediate family members (five lives in total, for the record) that Lyle agrees with Alan that the raw food movement is largely full of shit. I've certainly seen him mock "clean" eating on many occasions. Like every day. Sure, there may be cases where raw food might be indicated or beneficial. But that movement is just like Paleo, or Zone, or Atkins, or any other diet fad. A small group of people find something that they think works for them, decide that for that reason it must work for everyone to the exclusion of all other diets, and then promote it zealously, evidence be damned. Or they take a few independently correct things and create an entire dogma about them. Take a deeper look at Alan's stuff.
What is hilarious is that I had a HUGE debate on milk on mind and muscle forums, a great forum, and how I believe pasteurized milk really does kill your joints. You're not going to find a correct answer through large scale studies, because there are equal amounts showing it improves bone health and that it reduces or has absolutely no benefit to bones/muscle. It's the individual's special situation that determines if whatever food is right..but overall, pasteurized milk and other dairy products are linked to joint problems, and most importantly, are INFLAMMATORY. How do people come to this conclusion when there are so many LARGE studies showing the opposite? Small scale, CASE studies which provide us with a more narrow/specific insight, although there are enormous amounts of scientific data showing milk is not helping bone problems.
You want to talk about sample sizes of one? I drink a ton of milk and have since I was a little kid. Beyond the aforementioned toe issue (unrelated to diet, as discussed) and some hypermobility (completely and utterly genetic and thus also unrelated to diet), I have no joint issues at all. And great digestion. You should see my shits, dude. Beautiful.
My problem with large studies is that they disregard so many variables... and that people belive what the study says without questioning what was missing using their own logic.
The irony of this statement defies belief.
Stop drinking dairy and your foot or whatever may improve. My friend was a workout buff and got injured all the time, he does not drink dairy anymore and seems to be doing better. It's these individual testimoies I trust more that extremely large studies which are generally easier to interpret than the more detailed specific case studies. Has anyone studied what happens to your joints after high impact loading consuming bee pollen, spirulina, colostrum, velvet deer antler, cacao, hemp seeds.... not yet, but I look forward to when I get the chance.
Good for your friend. Maybe he was lactose intolerant. Or maybe milk had nothing to do with it. I've never heard of milk causing or promoting injuries. Explosive farts, sure. If you have studies to back that up, please share them. As I've said above, the chances approach zero that drinking milk had a role in my toe condition. And I'm not about to stop drinking milk because protein is essential to gain muscle (or to prevent loss if gains are not desired) and milk contains cheap, easily if slowly digestible (there, I said it--but then I'm NOT lactose intolerant*), high-quality protein. I also eat chicken, beef, pork, and fish. And enjoy every minute of it when I do. Eggs, too. Those are also good sources of very high-quality protein and fat. Not to mention they're hella good for you. That's right.
All that being said, the only individual testimony that should matter is your own to yourself. If you feel good and are making gains on the raw/fermented food kick, power to you. Don't listen to me or anyone else. Incidentally, it'd be awfully hard to do a serious study on the effects on joint health of consuming pollen or hemp seeds or whatever after high-impact loading because the effect of high impact loading (depth jumps, improper form while fencing, etc.) is cumulative. It takes years and years sometimes to become a problem. I hope you pull off a study someday because it'd be a fascinating read. No joke or sarcasm there, I'm serious. But my doubts about your finding positive results are thiiiiiiiiiis big (I'm now holding my arms out as far as they'll go...there).
The biggest thing that I've learned from Lyle and Alan (and others) is that everything has its place, and you should do everything in moderation most of the time. Raw food might work great for some people but as a general prescription it is more likely to be wrong than not.
*Nor do I have Celiac...so I can eat all the grain I want! And, as I said before, my digestion works like a god damn charm. It's all in the shits, man.
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wow, can't believe something this small started such a big argument
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wow, can't believe something this small started such a big argument
it's not really that small though, it's two entirely different thought processes on training..
thought process 1: for the most part, generally strengthen
thought process 2: for the most part, strengthen very specific to the goal movement
about the trap bar comparison, i agree with LBSS that this lift is far from being considered similar to trap bar..
i've been on and off the fence about the milk thing.. in my own personal experience, i am so much stronger on milk and have a much harder time "losing weight" when im drinking milk, even if it's only a few glasses.. i've been injury prone my whole life though, milk or no milk, so i can't really comment on that part.
pc
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I jsut wanted to experiemtn with that second philosophy - training specific to movement patterns.
And since I have done trapbar deadlifts, and my RVJ lift, I think I am the most credible in saying that they work the muscles similarly. . .. lol I've done both, and trap bar deadlifts hit my lower back the same way as this does.
The confusion regarding the jerkiness of this lift is due to the fact that it's a max attempt. I believe I had the smoothest lift at 00:47. I'll post a video of it being smoother on a lower weight.
And LBSS, an RVJ, in my opinion, looks smooth because it happens so fast. But in slow mo, a lot of things are moving and jerking. Tdub is extremely smooth, but look at GC. He bows his neck down and curves his back a little bit, creating a powerful stretch shortening cycle to the RVJ. I pretty much do the same thing in this lift. And I love using momentum to lift as much weight as possible, while trying to not do anything stupid regarding form.
In terms of the comment on large scale studies: think about a recent study that evaluated low carb vs low fat. The two variables were fats and carbs . . . other variables include mineral cmposition of the diet, digestibility of the proteins, um fiber, antioxidants in the diet, etc. Remember this study? I laughed when it came out because people believed the results, whichw as that low fat results in greater weight loss long term (1year), and low carb offers greater weight loss short term (6months - not that short for a cut). An example of how so many confounding variables screw up results.
And chicken is not as high quality of a protein as spirulina, it may have more protein, but spirulina has the minerals/co factors/enzymes that probably increase protein synthesis beyond anything a complicated polypeptide bonded protein could do.
Also, did I mention this yet? Nutritional science is brand new; people who rely on the science too heavily tend to refute things not backed up by science, such as raw food. I mean I stopped studying nutritional science after realizing how backed up in outdated bs the major was. So for me, I feel great on raw food, most people do. I've felt great on some cooked foods too, but having a high amount of those in your diet tends to improve well-being a lot, and clearly you have not tried it. btw I eat like 60 g of protein a day and my lifts have been going up for the past 3 months continuously - so that's high quality protein.
Dr. Gabriel Cousens btw, a promoter or raw food, gets people off insulin in 2-4 days at his institute. I think that's pretty profound. They've cured type 1 diabetes as well, and put the results together in a documentary titled "Simply Raw."
@Nba2020: thanks man, I record diet/training/how I feel everyday in my journal. In fact, I know I'm gonna have a good lift when ma swagga is at its best. THat's when the legs are strongest, seriously, i think many can attest to that
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if your form suffers, and its not a competition IE your NOT a power lifter, what is the point of losing form to lift more weight? I used to do that frequently, max out with no regard to form, but IMO it is fruitless.
I guess I would be along the terms of general- with not all general being equal. IE yes weights are general to jumping/basketball, but focusing on improving your squat will still benefit you a lot more than improving your leg extension max or something
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I jsut wanted to experiemtn with that second philosophy - training specific to movement patterns.
And since I have done trapbar deadlifts, and my RVJ lift, I think I am the most credible in saying that they work the muscles similarly. . .. lol I've done both, and trap bar deadlifts hit my lower back the same way as this does.
The confusion regarding the jerkiness of this lift is due to the fact that it's a max attempt. I believe I had the smoothest lift at 00:47. I'll post a video of it being smoother on a lower weight.
i'd shoot the vid from a bit further out, back angle AND side angle.. that'd give everyone a better perspective on what's going on.
And LBSS, an RVJ, in my opinion, looks smooth because it happens so fast. But in slow mo, a lot of things are moving and jerking. Tdub is extremely smooth, but look at GC. He bows his neck down and curves his back a little bit, creating a powerful stretch shortening cycle to the RVJ. I pretty much do the same thing in this lift. And I love using momentum to lift as much weight as possible, while trying to not do anything stupid regarding form.
ya well about the GC thing, the only difference is he's not vigorously using his erectors to try and become erect & he's squatting down more, so i think it's a bit different than your deadlift exercise.. I would imagine a squat on mid-foot, low bar, would mimic GC's plant extremely well.. It's what I call poonanny squats, i was going to experiment with them, i liked them for sure, but i cut out weights. This lift would be limited by the ankles, since squatting on mid foot (heel not touching, toes up) is pretty tough.
In terms of the comment on large scale studies: think about a recent study that evaluated low carb vs low fat. The two variables were fats and carbs . . . other variables include mineral cmposition of the diet, digestibility of the proteins, um fiber, antioxidants in the diet, etc. Remember this study? I laughed when it came out because people believed the results, whichw as that low fat results in greater weight loss long term (1year), and low carb offers greater weight loss short term (6months - not that short for a cut). An example of how so many confounding variables screw up results.
And chicken is not as high quality of a protein as spirulina, it may have more protein, but spirulina has the minerals/co factors/enzymes that probably increase protein synthesis beyond anything a complicated polypeptide bonded protein could do.
Also, did I mention this yet? Nutritional science is brand new; people who rely on the science too heavily tend to refute things not backed up by science, such as raw food. I mean I stopped studying nutritional science after realizing how backed up in outdated bs the major was. So for me, I feel great on raw food, most people do. I've felt great on some cooked foods too, but having a high amount of those in your diet tends to improve well-being a lot, and clearly you have not tried it. btw I eat like 60 g of protein a day and my lifts have been going up for the past 3 months continuously - so that's high quality protein.
Dr. Gabriel Cousens btw, a promoter or raw food, gets people off insulin in 2-4 days at his institute. I think that's pretty profound. They've cured type 1 diabetes as well, and put the results together in a documentary titled "Simply Raw."
@Nba2020: thanks man, I record diet/training/how I feel everyday in my journal. In fact, I know I'm gonna have a good lift when ma swagga is at its best. THat's when the legs are strongest, seriously, i think many can attest to that
cya man!
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVLWcGEE-j0
Talking about stupid lifts. . . .
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wtf was that? haha
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLnCJcVFbKg
Another winner
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zJSZF4k5qw
Starting to understand the lack of medals from US Olympic Weightlifting team
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that goes on every day in high school weightrooms across the usa.
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There was anotherr one I was looking for, this kid works up to a HS record of 305#s, and he caught major shit for it on youtube, but he took it down.
The 295# one is awesome tho.