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Performance Area => Article & Video Discussion => Topic started by: Coges on August 23, 2016, 11:12:57 pm
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https://www.strengthandconditioningresearch.com/promotions/quarter-squats-transfer-sprinting/
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nice article! very informative.
thanks for sharing that.
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tis interesting however i wonder how well using full squats mainly and quarters as assistance would go? or vice versa. I feel it wud work better in some sense
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tis interesting however i wonder how well using full squats mainly and quarters as assistance would go? or vice versa. I feel it wud work better in some sense
ya, they complement each other.
- quarters and halfs get you stronger with more weight on your back
- halfs aren't so far off from below parallel that those gains won't "leak" into deep ROM
- quarters aren't so far off from halfs that those gains won't "leak" into half ROM
my slightly below parallel squat improved while I was half squatting.. very rarely, i'd warmup going deeper, then transition into halfs. On a few occasions I worked up to a heavy single before transitioning to halfs. I remember distinctly hitting 315 x 1-3 reps @ ~150, below parallel .. while my half squat was getting up near 400.
Form is essential on all of these variations, but even more so (IMHO) with quarters .. it can just be so much weight on your back. If you intend on playing with halfs & quarters, it's best to quiet the ego a bit and keep it on the safe side (early on). As we get more experienced, we usually know what to do - as long as we recognize the ego.
As for myself, deep squatting usually ends up making my hips feel like crap.. and I REALLY hate that feeling. So unfortunately i'll stick to halfs and above.
pc!
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same here, I tried squatting with empty bar and as soon as i passed half, my hips just started shouting, well my left hip mostly.
But I want to try quarter squats, they don't look too difficult in terms of form, as you maintain form of squat but only go quarter way and then back up. But I will have to try it first. But I have done half squats before upto 100-110kg.
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tis interesting however i wonder how well using full squats mainly and quarters as assistance would go? or vice versa. I feel it wud work better in some sense
ya, they complement each other.
- quarters and halfs get you stronger with more weight on your back
- halfs aren't so far off from below parallel that those gains won't "leak" into deep ROM
- quarters aren't so far off from halfs that those gains won't "leak" into half ROM
my slightly below parallel squat improved while I was half squatting.. very rarely, i'd warmup going deeper, then transition into halfs. On a few occasions I worked up to a heavy single before transitioning to halfs. I remember distinctly hitting 315 x 1-3 reps @ ~150, below parallel .. while my half squat was getting up near 400.
Form is essential on all of these variations, but even more so (IMHO) with quarters .. it can just be so much weight on your back. If you intend on playing with halfs & quarters, it's best to quiet the ego a bit and keep it on the safe side (early on). As we get more experienced, we usually know what to do - as long as we recognize the ego.
As for myself, deep squatting usually ends up making my hips feel like crap.. and I REALLY hate that feeling. So unfortunately i'll stick to halfs and above.
pc!
The problem with all non-full squats is consistency. It's a bigger problem with quarters that anything else. Are quarter squats useful? Sure. But it's hard to make gains real because the squats because it's easy to get stronger by doing 0.25 (quarter) squats one day and the 0.24 squats and then 0.23 squats, 0.22 squats,...0.10 squats, etc. Full olympic squats pause squats are the only squats that are don't have this problem.
However, I have found that people who half squat well like Andrew are able to keep a semi-consistent depth on the half squat. This is because there is a ROM where going a little bit higher doesn't make it that much easier for most people - so you can hammer out the squats and make real gains... Once you approach quarter depth each centimeter higher you go makes the squat so much easier that consistency becomes difficult. If you want to play with different depths there are a few things you can do -
Simple:
1) Pin squats. Of course they have the problem that hitting pins turns it into a pause squat....
2) Box squats - great exercise but sitting on a box doesn't allow you to reverse the weight without help...
Both of these are useful but I don't like them as the only movements, a little bit more complicated but very useful are:
1) Band "pin" squats. Wrap a band around the squat rack like pins. Hit the band and then stand up. This allows you to hit consistent depth but the band bends and doesn't stop the weight which is better. Of course you have to be careful you are not just doing a good morning to get the bar down - make sure back angle is consistent.
2) Reverse band squats. One of my favorites. You attach a band to the bar and the top of the squat rack. The band tightens at some point (say at parallel) so you squat down and the band stretches - you make sure to get near parallel because at this point the band provides assistance and pulls the bar up - you finish the movement with this initial acceleration from the band... Really does a good job for jump training because this is what a proper DLRVJ is like - we use speed to give ourself a dynamic boost so we plant into a slightly above parallel squat and rebound up - the beginning of the movement is momentum from our approach and plant - the muscles fire after to send us into the air...
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https://www.strengthandconditioningresearch.com/promotions/quarter-squats-transfer-sprinting/
Cool article.
I'm emailing the author to see if they have video to share - I doubt it... But it would be useful.
The problem with this article and a lot of article is that they don't understand that while joint angles in squats are fixed joint angles in jumps are not. You can't say the joint angle in a quarter squat is more similar to the joint angle in a vertical jump. Kingfish's best vertical jump comes from a joint angle that is identical to a full squat. Mine is between a half and a quarter squat. The vertical jump doesn't have a joint angle - it is a jump not an prescribed exercise with a defined range of motion!
We all do it differently. And unfortunately that difference isn't just dependent on your structure it is dependent on your strength.
Take an extremely weak beginner and make them do a vertical jump or a running double leg jump. (I just trained one). They will do a 1/16 or less squat. So I guess that means for them they should do a 1/16 squat? No way! They are not strong enough to use more than a 1/16 squat - but if we train them and get them strong and stable maybe their best vertical jump comes from a full squat or half squat... We can make guesses based on their structure but we can't be sure...
This is why I think everyone*** should start with full squats. I actually favor half squats over full squats for athletes but I think full squats are a necessary base to build strength and mobility. When your training an athlete who wants to jump you should get him capable of sitting down in a full squat with close to bodyweight. I usually use 135lbs for most guys. Get them able to hit full depth, pause, and drive up with 135. After this is accomplished then train with half squats, quarter squats, etc and test vertical jump. If the athlete performs vertical jumps best with a deep squat then deep squats should not be abandoned - again use structure for clues here. If the athlete doesn't jump with anything near a full squat then they don't necessarily need them - you can keep them as warmup (or do bar overhead full squats - great mobility warmup), but you don't need to progress.
*** Everyone doesn't mean everyone. I make an earnest effort for most people. It might require oly shoes, plates under shoes, a lot of stretching, and it might not be totally full... If the guy is 7' feet tall it might not be worth the effort to build a full bodyweight squat... But within reason I like athletes to get this mobility figured out... How do you know you shouldn't use a deeper squat to get a higher vertical jump if you have zero strength or comfort or range of motion at that angle...
This is my caution with praising partial squats. It allows a shortcut. I feel I have earned the right to do partial squats! I am 5'11 and have really long legs and no torso. I still built up my oly pause squat to 400 and could do 315x15 pause squats. Despite that I could never jump at all out of a full squat and always vertical jumped with a high joint angle... I am confident that I'm not selling myself short by not building my full squat bigger.... But that's not the same as some kid with short legs who jumps 24'' and can't full squat 135 doing ugly pin squats with 405 and claiming that he doesn't full squat because it doesn't translate to his jump. If your vertical is 24'' you don't have a jump.
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I do agree that its easy to fudge the depth on quarters .. however, if you use them as an assistance, who really cares .. as long as you're getting better at adding weight and can maintain or improve depth over time?
Im 3 weeks in into a quarter squat program .. i do them once a week ... too early yet to say yay or nay but im digging them so far. Wish i had tried them sooner.. will report back after a while to see what affect if any has been noticed
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full squats until you get yourself to the level of very strong (2BW+), then partials to get stronger on the specific joint angle.
i got 38"+ SVJ on vid jumping from 1/4 squat depth. this was peaking from weeks of 1/2" supramax partial squats up to 125%RM. without the potentiation effects from a cycle of the very heavy partials, i just go lazy and jump from a full squat depth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYYFQBdq5vU
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I do agree that its easy to fudge the depth on quarters .. however, if you use them as an assistance, who really cares .. as long as you're getting better at adding weight and can maintain or improve depth over time?
Im 3 weeks in into a quarter squat program .. i do them once a week ... too early yet to say yay or nay but im digging them so far. Wish i had tried them sooner.. will report back after a while to see what affect if any has been noticed
Well if they are easy to fudge on depth... Then it's hard to add depth over time!
Also, I am talking about people who use them not as assistance but as their primary movement...
I actually not even against a partial squat as a primary movement... My point is just when evaluating an exercise you gotta look at all facets of the exercise, exercises that are fudgeable always have the disadvantage because its harder to tell the athlete to just go do it and add weight... There is no way to cheat the full squat... Same with the deadlift. This is great. Depending on structure for some athletes partial squats are better than full squats as far as carryover - but you have to be diligent with them because they do have the fudgeability factor. And it's not be taken lightly. Most exercises can get ugly and cheated... Bicep curls can be cheated. Close grip pull up can be cheated. However, I prefer close grip pull ups over bicep curls 100x because bicep curls can be cheated way more and the cheating can make the exercise completely unrelated and dangerous which is much less likely with pullups....
Partials have the problem that you can cheat on depth AND achieve more "depth" by bending the back and good-morning the weight. This is a very dangerous combination. It depends on the athlete and the coaching they have available... Good supervision and a diligent athlete and you are fine...
But, then again you have the competitive athlete who wants to throw more weight on the bar... Say the guy who is 170 and claims a 135 bicep curl and a 400lb RDL despite no similar non cheatable strength or athleticism feats... The guy who really wants to life more weight at all costs... And pushing up those partial squats is a recipe to destroy the back..
For the most part I agree with Kingfish... Although his line of 2x bodyweight is IMO far too heavy for some people... But get strong using full squats - if your weak your weak and you don't know your body... Once your strong whats best for you might not be so simple. But weak people can keep it simple until they are strong...
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I was planning to bring partials back this season, this article sealed the deal. Serves my body metrics so much better ( ~40'' legs , ~18'' torso ). Not as the main exercise of course, but instead of alternating reps on full squats i'll be alternating fulls with partials. That's the plan that got me to my peak condition ever anyway. I just got too squat-headed somewhere along the way and developed a wrong* mentality, bringing my depth lower and lower, now i don't even want to do parallel squats, only ATG. smh
*apparently wrong for me. Different strokes for different folks. I have been squatting religiously for 7-8 years now and i can't even get to 1.5*BW. Best I've ever done is a barely below parallel slow ugly 120kg squat, once. At the same time, whenever i get into partials i am able to get to extremely fast ( <1s concentric ) 90 degree squats with 140-150kg for sets of 5. Get the damn clue!!!
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In regards to partial squats primarily between quarter and half, I would like to give them a try but I am not strong enough in the full squat to attempt this because of my hips. I understand todday's point about it being fudgeable as compared to full squat as there are so many ways to cheat depth among other things. Does it mean I cannot do squats because of me being weak on the full squat because of my hips?
On a sidenote, I read the article related to the article posted on this thread (at the bottom of the article or in it there was a link to an article about hip thrusts) about hip thrusts and when I was in prison and I tried to do those, one of the inmates using the gym saw and commented 'you preparing for your mrs' lol. He clearly didn't other benefits of this exercise besides strengthening the hip thrust lol.
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2xbw full squat then partials is a good thing to tell people. most ppl wont even bother trying for it but once you enter the journey then either you attain it or you dont. At some point it's fine to say, im going to use partials now to peak and extract the most gains out of my body right now. the alternative is never getting to 2xbw and never finding out how high you really can jump bc you save peaking for a day that never comes lol
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In my case this summer gone i attained 1.8xbw but i didnt use partials .. i shud have tho to see if i cud break 35" .. esp since i was then and still am a quad dominant jumper. All good, have added them in now and will keep then in to see what effect they have.
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what about trap bar deadlifts with the high handles?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1nHXlnY9Go
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personally I don't buy it, otherwise olympic lifters would be doing quarter squats as well to improve their second pull on the olys and jerks which are pretty shallow
Even in a quarter squat your still slowing down at the top, the only shallow squat that is jump specific is probably a power jerk and jump squats
Strength exercises are not meant to be specific, since strength expression is movement specific.
IMO your just trying to increase the size of the fast twitch fibers used while jumping, and some other structural factors when you use weights.
So that when they are recruited they can apply more force, and have better joint angle leverage, which is not movement specific.
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Thinking about it logically (my 2 cents logic)
The quarter squats would help improve cleans but you would also have to train the other movements of the clean or snatch to such as the pull, hang, explosive hip extension as it is an explosive movement compared to the squats.
The quarter squats compared to the full squats would involve different muscles being activated.
Top half range of motion: From just above thighs parallel to standing, the loading demand will be greater on your hip extensors. This means that your glutes, adductor magnus (inner thigh), and to a lesser extent, hamstrings, are most activated in this range of motion.
Bottom half range of motion: From about thighs parallel and below, the loading demand will be greater on your knee extensors. This means that your quads are most activated in this range of motion.
With jumping or sprinting acceleration, gaining strength in the limited knee bent that takes place and then doing explosive work in that same range would help a lot.
I think I remember they did study that showed partial squats providing better strength to jumping than full squats.
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I think you have it mixed up - Glutes are way more active at the bottom of the squat, and quads at the top.
Although it depends on the amount of lean and torso angles.
Once the quads have maxed out their strength, then the body will transfer the stress onto the hips by leaning forward
Even then how an exercise feels has no actual bearing on recruitment %, as studies have shown no difference between wide and narrow stance squats despite narrow feeling more quad heavy. And Front squats having the same effect as back squats despite the former feeling more quad dominant.
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re studies on partials, one thing you have to consider is that full squats cause more fatigue and muscle damage than partials.
So if the full squatter had more recovery time and rest before testing I feel the difference would none.
Studies do no account for a lot of factors IMO