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Performance Area => Article & Video Discussion => Topic started by: JackW on January 31, 2011, 03:43:39 am
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Hi Guys
I just read an interesting article from Daniel over at free to fly about short versus tall athletes.
http://www.thefreetofly.com/2011/01/short-vs-tall-athletes-jump-training.html
It is a pretty small sample size being used (just Daniel and a mate of his) but it is still an interesting theory.
I would love to hear your thoughts coaches about what Daniel has to say.
Cheers
Jack
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Nice article. I always feel the effects of being tall, and i love that. Even though i don't put in such big numbers 1.7x squat 2x deadlift 1.3x bench i still get easy over 40 inches because of being 6"5' so that's great : :strong:
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I think he is missing something: a 6 foot person jumping 40" is relatively much higher than king kong jumping 40". Moving a 100lb barbell 20" is the same work as moving a 200lb barbell 10" - relative strength with this in regards might give about the same "strength" for a shorter and taller person, even though the taller person appears to be weaker.
I also think height isn't nearly as important for this equation as body proportions (leg<->torso length, femur<->tibia length)
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I also think height isn't nearly as important for this equation as body proportions (leg<->torso length, femur<->tibia length)
This was my thoughts on this as well. There are a lot of variables about Daniel and his friend not identified that would seem to make more sense. Also, power isn't just about squat numbers as we all know.
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Hi Guys
I just read an interesting article from Daniel over at free to fly about short versus tall athletes.
http://www.thefreetofly.com/2011/01/short-vs-tall-athletes-jump-training.html
It is a pretty small sample size being used (just Daniel and a mate of his) but it is still an interesting theory.
I would love to hear your thoughts coaches about what Daniel has to say.
Cheers
Jack
well, that's why we promote half squatting for lanky (long leg/short torso) athletes (basketball players, sprinters, high jumpers, etc) here.. more progress can be made with that ROM than deep, and deep will also improve as a result of half improving.
shorter athletes usually have less of a difference between SVJ & RVJ from what i've seen.. they utilize their leverages better in movements that require less 'pre stretch', so, for them to improve SVJ/RVJ, they will USUALLY have to squat alot more than someone who is considerably taller, but that's easier for them to do so in the first place.. regardless of height though, a guy (A) who is 5'9 (short torso, long legs) vs a guy (B) who is 5'9 (shorter legs, longer torso), in general, guy A is going to struggle more with the same weight as guy B, if it's the same depth.. guy (A) might consider raising his depth a bit (half) to experience faster progress and more performance gains.
it's kind of how Arowe squatted 2xBW ATG for his 37 RVJ, and i squat 2.2 HALF for my ~37 RVJ.. If I were to go ATG, i'd be lucky to hit 1.5xBW. If we "normalize" the ROM, he's squatting WAY more than me at either half or deep squat, for the same RVJ.. he's 5'7.5 in shoes, i'm 6'1 in shoes.
pc
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Don't forget about valgus angle, hip width and foot angle too. From what I understand a higher valgus angle, narrower hips and more forward facing feet which indicate less externally rotated hips indicate better structure for sprinting/jumping while less valgus angle, wider hips and more outward facing feet indicating externally rotated femurs indicate better structure for squatting.
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Hi Guys
I just read an interesting article from Daniel over at free to fly about short versus tall athletes.
http://www.thefreetofly.com/2011/01/short-vs-tall-athletes-jump-training.html
It is a pretty small sample size being used (just Daniel and a mate of his) but it is still an interesting theory.
I would love to hear your thoughts coaches about what Daniel has to say.
Cheers
Jack
well, that's why we promote half squatting for lanky (long leg/short torso) athletes (basketball players, sprinters, high jumpers, etc) here.. more progress can be made with that ROM than deep, and deep will also improve as a result of half improving.
shorter athletes usually have less of a difference between SVJ & RVJ from what i've seen.. they utilize their leverages better in movements that require less 'pre stretch', so, for them to improve SVJ/RVJ, they will USUALLY have to squat alot more than someone who is considerably taller, but that's easier for them to do so in the first place.. regardless of height though, a guy (A) who is 5'9 (short torso, long legs) vs a guy (B) who is 5'9 (shorter legs, longer torso), in general, guy A is going to struggle more with the same weight as guy B, if it's the same depth.. guy (A) might consider raising his depth a bit (half) to experience faster progress and more performance gains.
it's kind of how Arowe squatted 2xBW ATG for his 37 RVJ, and i squat 2.2 HALF for my ~37 RVJ.. If I were to go ATG, i'd be lucky to hit 1.5xBW. If we "normalize" the ROM, he's squatting WAY more than me at either half or deep squat, for the same RVJ.. he's 5'7.5 in shoes, i'm 6'1 in shoes.
pc
Well I have that sitting height to standing height ratio of under 50, 49.7 (long legs), and I gain what, 2 inches off a run? Sure, I'm not jump efficient off two feet but still, you'd expect better. I also find it much easier to jump off a standing vert or off one step than the "average" basketball player at my height.
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Well I have that sitting height to standing height ratio of under 50, 49.7 (long legs), and I gain what, 2 inches off a run? Sure, I'm not jump efficient off two feet but still, you'd expect better. I also find it much easier to jump off a standing vert or off one step than the "average" basketball player at my height.
That's probably because the average basketball player your height doesn't even eat properly nervmind done any kind of lower body strength work. Most pro basketball players can't jump for shit standing, nevermind recreational and amateur.
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Well I have that sitting height to standing height ratio of under 50, 49.7 (long legs), and I gain what, 2 inches off a run? Sure, I'm not jump efficient off two feet but still, you'd expect better. I also find it much easier to jump off a standing vert or off one step than the "average" basketball player at my height.
That's probably because the average basketball player your height doesn't even eat properly nervmind done any kind of lower body strength work. Most pro basketball players can't jump for shit standing, nevermind recreational and amateur.
Yeah it could be. So then any "natural" jumpers will jump a lot more off the run anyway than standing. If not, they will be bad jumpers regardless of the technique.
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Well I have that sitting height to standing height ratio of under 50, 49.7 (long legs), and I gain what, 2 inches off a run? Sure, I'm not jump efficient off two feet but still, you'd expect better. I also find it much easier to jump off a standing vert or off one step than the "average" basketball player at my height.
That's probably because the average basketball player your height doesn't even eat properly nervmind done any kind of lower body strength work. Most pro basketball players can't jump for shit standing, nevermind recreational and amateur.
Yeah it could be. So then any "natural" jumpers will jump a lot more off the run anyway than standing. If not, they will be bad jumpers regardless of the technique.
Yup and if they train to display voluntary force from a standstill that gap the standing jump would catch up.
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Hi Guys
I just read an interesting article from Daniel over at free to fly about short versus tall athletes.
http://www.thefreetofly.com/2011/01/short-vs-tall-athletes-jump-training.html
It is a pretty small sample size being used (just Daniel and a mate of his) but it is still an interesting theory.
I would love to hear your thoughts coaches about what Daniel has to say.
Cheers
Jack
well, that's why we promote half squatting for lanky (long leg/short torso) athletes (basketball players, sprinters, high jumpers, etc) here.. more progress can be made with that ROM than deep, and deep will also improve as a result of half improving.
shorter athletes usually have less of a difference between SVJ & RVJ from what i've seen.. they utilize their leverages better in movements that require less 'pre stretch', so, for them to improve SVJ/RVJ, they will USUALLY have to squat alot more than someone who is considerably taller, but that's easier for them to do so in the first place.. regardless of height though, a guy (A) who is 5'9 (short torso, long legs) vs a guy (B) who is 5'9 (shorter legs, longer torso), in general, guy A is going to struggle more with the same weight as guy B, if it's the same depth.. guy (A) might consider raising his depth a bit (half) to experience faster progress and more performance gains.
it's kind of how Arowe squatted 2xBW ATG for his 37 RVJ, and i squat 2.2 HALF for my ~37 RVJ.. If I were to go ATG, i'd be lucky to hit 1.5xBW. If we "normalize" the ROM, he's squatting WAY more than me at either half or deep squat, for the same RVJ.. he's 5'7.5 in shoes, i'm 6'1 in shoes.
pc
I normal squat 1.5xbw and i'm 6'1 with shoes on.....and my vert ain't 37..actually i think my max vert has probably ~34 before the winter :)
I hasve long legs and a shorter torso...so what's the verdict chief?
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Hi Guys
I just read an interesting article from Daniel over at free to fly about short versus tall athletes.
http://www.thefreetofly.com/2011/01/short-vs-tall-athletes-jump-training.html
It is a pretty small sample size being used (just Daniel and a mate of his) but it is still an interesting theory.
I would love to hear your thoughts coaches about what Daniel has to say.
Cheers
Jack
well, that's why we promote half squatting for lanky (long leg/short torso) athletes (basketball players, sprinters, high jumpers, etc) here.. more progress can be made with that ROM than deep, and deep will also improve as a result of half improving.
shorter athletes usually have less of a difference between SVJ & RVJ from what i've seen.. they utilize their leverages better in movements that require less 'pre stretch', so, for them to improve SVJ/RVJ, they will USUALLY have to squat alot more than someone who is considerably taller, but that's easier for them to do so in the first place.. regardless of height though, a guy (A) who is 5'9 (short torso, long legs) vs a guy (B) who is 5'9 (shorter legs, longer torso), in general, guy A is going to struggle more with the same weight as guy B, if it's the same depth.. guy (A) might consider raising his depth a bit (half) to experience faster progress and more performance gains.
it's kind of how Arowe squatted 2xBW ATG for his 37 RVJ, and i squat 2.2 HALF for my ~37 RVJ.. If I were to go ATG, i'd be lucky to hit 1.5xBW. If we "normalize" the ROM, he's squatting WAY more than me at either half or deep squat, for the same RVJ.. he's 5'7.5 in shoes, i'm 6'1 in shoes.
pc
Well I have that sitting height to standing height ratio of under 50, 49.7 (long legs), and I gain what, 2 inches off a run? Sure, I'm not jump efficient off two feet but still, you'd expect better. I also find it much easier to jump off a standing vert or off one step than the "average" basketball player at my height.
you're fat, strength dominant, and out of shape.
THAT'S WHY.
real talk, i love you though.. remember your runup speed when you were much younger? you looked like a rocket.. sure you're much stronger now, but you looked pretty fast back then.. now you look alot slower (but with more strength).. i imagine you've gotten:
1. less fit
2. fatter
3. overly strength trained
4. more emo
:F
peace mang
Hi Guys
I just read an interesting article from Daniel over at free to fly about short versus tall athletes.
http://www.thefreetofly.com/2011/01/short-vs-tall-athletes-jump-training.html
It is a pretty small sample size being used (just Daniel and a mate of his) but it is still an interesting theory.
I would love to hear your thoughts coaches about what Daniel has to say.
Cheers
Jack
well, that's why we promote half squatting for lanky (long leg/short torso) athletes (basketball players, sprinters, high jumpers, etc) here.. more progress can be made with that ROM than deep, and deep will also improve as a result of half improving.
shorter athletes usually have less of a difference between SVJ & RVJ from what i've seen.. they utilize their leverages better in movements that require less 'pre stretch', so, for them to improve SVJ/RVJ, they will USUALLY have to squat alot more than someone who is considerably taller, but that's easier for them to do so in the first place.. regardless of height though, a guy (A) who is 5'9 (short torso, long legs) vs a guy (B) who is 5'9 (shorter legs, longer torso), in general, guy A is going to struggle more with the same weight as guy B, if it's the same depth.. guy (A) might consider raising his depth a bit (half) to experience faster progress and more performance gains.
it's kind of how Arowe squatted 2xBW ATG for his 37 RVJ, and i squat 2.2 HALF for my ~37 RVJ.. If I were to go ATG, i'd be lucky to hit 1.5xBW. If we "normalize" the ROM, he's squatting WAY more than me at either half or deep squat, for the same RVJ.. he's 5'7.5 in shoes, i'm 6'1 in shoes.
pc
I normal squat 1.5xbw and i'm 6'1 with shoes on.....and my vert ain't 37..actually i think my max vert has probably ~34 before the winter :)
I hasve long legs and a shorter torso...so what's the verdict chief?
you're still going through puberty and your hip mobility is good.
you dunked in 8th grade apparently and havn't really dunked much since then.
you utilized vertfreak, got massive gains, then looking back, dunked better before VF, then dissed VF, and are now back 2 promoting VF.
the verdict is, you seem to be all over the place, so, the data is hard to analyze..
the result from your analysis function is UNDEFINED
analyze(bmully)
result = UNDEFINED.
for example, compare that to
analyze(raptor)
result = got fatter, got less fit, became too "strength dominant", increased emo levels.
you lack data bmully.
pc
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i imagine you've gotten:
1. less fit
2. fatter
3. overly strength trained
4. more emo
And you imagine right. The CoolColJ path baby!
Nah, I really need to work on sprints and suicide-like drills/change direction stuff and get lighter. That should be the priority right now and I'm slowly transitioning into that type of work.
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i imagine you've gotten:
1. less fit
2. fatter
3. overly strength trained
4. more emo
And you imagine right. The CoolColJ path baby!
Nah, I really need to work on sprints and suicide-like drills/change direction stuff and get lighter. That should be the priority right now and I'm slowly transitioning into that type of work.
good man, just have fun with it.. the more fit you get, the more explosive sprint-drills you do like that, man, your jumping will skyrocket eventually.. you'll be leaner, handle forces better, produce more force relatively, and get up higher.
boop
;d
lol @ CCJ path, poor guy, wish he woulda got leaner first.
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Yeah I just remember how much different of a feeling is after I play 5 on 5 basketball, which I do very rarely. It just feels like the entire leg is fatigued. No muscle groups separation in terms of fatigue or anything. Just the entire leg. It just feels... weird. Probably because of lactic acid or something, and more blood flow. I just feel more elastic when I'm in the middle of a 5 on 5, albeit fatigued enough not to jump well.
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taller athletes or longer limbed athletes have an advantage when it comes to certain movements. I learned in my advanced biomechanics class thats it mostly about the different levers in the body. Taller people have a harder time putting on muscle but their levers allow them to display power more efficiently. Without going into too much detail, in general longer levers require less force to move a given resistance. This is one of the reason why an athlete who is 6'4" can squat 1.5x his body weight or less and jump 40+ inches and shorter athlete let say 5'9" would sometimes have to squat in excess of 2.0x his body weight to get that same 40+ inch vertical. Thats why some guys are just natural jumpers due to limb length, they require less strength. Just look at the longer limbed or taller athletes on tv, they look and move like they are not trying because they really aren't. Then take a look at the shorter more muscular athlete and he might be moving the same speed but he struggling to do it. Both pitchers and hockey players with fast puck and ball speed are more than likely taller athletes due to arm length. Usain bolt isnt doing any special training, he is just that much taller than average world class sprinter. Sports training industry used to have a nack for measuring an athletes potential by weight room numbers, but taller and lanky athletes excel more on the field.
There are many more variables that go into jumping but thats one of them.
To sum things up: lever or leg length > brute strength
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Don't forget about valgus angle, hip width and foot angle too. From what I understand a higher valgus angle, narrower hips and more forward facing feet which indicate less externally rotated hips indicate better structure for sprinting/jumping while less valgus angle, wider hips and more outward facing feet indicating externally rotated femurs indicate better structure for squatting.
Good point. I have long legs, but they are inward facing and my RVJ isn't much higher than SVJ. But I'm trying to train this deficiency. Do you have any articles or links on this actually?