Author Topic: Squats vs. Performance  (Read 8370 times)

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Mutumbo000

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Re: Squats vs. Performance
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2013, 10:55:30 am »
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Lifting won't do anything for top speed because that's mainly genetic.
"The squat becomes a poor measure of strength at maximum velocity. At this speed an athlete must exhibit extremely brief powerful single leg ground contact and the squat does not accurately predict their ability to produce power in this movement".

However, I believe squatting does improve your acceleration and can improve the start of your races, which will end up making you a faster runner. I was reading a book about Ben Johnson and Carl Lewis called 'The Dirtiest Race in History'. In the book it said even as far back as 1981 athletes were commenting on how impressive Ben Johnson's strength was in squatting. Back than in 1981 Johnson was running 100s in 10.8, however, he was leading a lot of faster guys than him in races up to 50m but just couldn't maintain the speed. He was always a brilliant starter and I attribute that to his natural strength and squatting. Ben Johnson didn't like cleans so he didn't do cleans. Same as Michael Johnson allegedly didn't do squats preferring lunges, so he did lunges. A guy like Linford Christie lives and dies by the squat believing it's an integral part of a sprinter's training. Same as Asafa Powell believes strongly in weights. But than you'll have other guys like Kim Collins who once again claim they don't even lift.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cmv65yElP8A" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cmv65yElP8A</a>

Point being if you like an exercise and think it benefits you than do it. If you don't like it or think it doesn't benefit you than don't do it. The ultimate judge is always going to be your performance on the court, field or track that counts, not what you can do in the weight room.

I'm pretty sure Charlie Francis said that Johnson squatted 600x6 (not sure on depth) and benched 450.

http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showthread.php?19380-Ben-Johnson-Squat-1rm
http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showthread.php?19380-Ben-Johnson-Squat-1rm

I think the book said he was squatting around 500lbs in 1981 (actually it could've been 1984- either way it was years before his peak) and he was also benching 170kg (373lbs). He was definitely a strong dude.  At the 1984 Olympics he had an altercation with Lennox Lewis the boxer. Lennox put him in a headlock and Johnson managed to throw Lennox over his shoulders onto the pool table.
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TKXII

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Re: Squats vs. Performance
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2013, 03:09:37 pm »
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haven't read everything but in response to a few people i'll reiterate:

1. No I wasn't tired. at all. my legs moved differently and i was slower when I was in a qud dominant state from doing a lot of squats/lunges. Take away squats and it seems to free up  my legs to move properly for top speed
2. Practicing the movements WHILE squatting still was counterproductive. I'm talking about top speed here. (For running vertical jump I think that's more complex to discuss, but not practicing jumping made me lose power, and squatting more couldn't make up for it). It was like I got sort of good at each one but they hindered each other. This becomes really apparent AFTER acceleration. Most studies I've looked at today study squat/sprint times up to 30m sprints and no further so I'll need to find more articles.
3. Ben Johnson is the only sprinter to my knowledge who squatted that much and those were 1/2 box squats. I've met a 10.1 sprinter who quarter squatted 585 for reps. He called them "power squats." I feel like half and quarter squats do NOT lead to the same quad dominant feeling that slows me down on the track.

http://speedendurance.com/2013/01/21/3-reasons-the-squat-is-not-the-cornerstone-of-strength-training-for-sprinters/
"Performance during stretch-shortening cycle exercise is influenced by the visco-elastic properties of the muscle-tendon units. During stretching of an activated muscle, mechanical energy is absorbed in the tendon structures (tendon and aponeurosis) and this energy can subsequently be re-utilized if shortening of the muscle immediately follows the stretching. According to Biscotti (2000), 72% of the elastic energy restitution action comes from tendons, 28% - from contractile elements of muscles.

http://www.verkhoshansky.com/Portals/0/Presentations/Shock%20Method%20Plyometrics.pdf

Raptor

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Re: Squats vs. Performance
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2013, 03:21:32 pm »
+1
Well the truth is the squat is a quad dominant movement (yes, there are the low bar squats etc but I've rarely seen athletes do low bar squats, personally at least).

In a sprint, which is a horizontal movement to begin with, the hamstrings and glutes play a much more important role. Then there's the structure thing. A guy made for sprinting isn't necessarily made for squatting. There's a bunch of stuff going on.

But the thing is - anything that you do that gets you STRONGER, ANYWHERE, assuming you have the correct movement mechanics, no mobility issues and a good agonist/antagonist balance - is also going to make you faster. At least it shouldn't make you slower, if anything.

That's why you have periodization for athletes - different phases, different exercises and different EXPRESSIONS of power and strength. Ultimately you want the non-specific strength and power exercises to carryover to the specific power and reactive "stuff" that you do.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 03:50:31 pm by Raptor »

ChrisM

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Re: Squats vs. Performance
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2013, 03:47:45 pm »
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Bingo Raptor. Its also why the article doesn't say 'stop squatting' but does advise placing more emphasis on hip driven lifts both in importance and volume. Seems reasonable to me.
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Raptor

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Re: Squats vs. Performance
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2013, 03:52:08 pm »
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Yeah it's like doing bench presses to help with overhead throwing power... well that's a stretch but you get the idea. You could just as well do overhead presses, but the overhead presses have less growth room than the bench press. Neither of them is a bad idea and improving on either one will give you some beneficial power in that event.

T0ddday

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Re: Squats vs. Performance
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2013, 06:34:00 pm »
+1
You guys are missing one REALLY important point when it comes to top-speed and strength.  First, I want to reiterate that I think Avisheks claim that squatting caused his top speed to be drastically lowered is highly individual; most athletes I have seen training do not suffer a huge decrease if you simply add squatting to a program squatting....   

The truth is that adding squatting (unless one is REALLY weak) will usually also provide ZERO increase to your top sprinting speed.   Throw in the decreased recovery, perhaps minor overeating, lack of speed work, and I wouldn't be surprised if Avishek experienced a moderate drop in speed but I would bet it was less that he was doing something (squatting) which directly made him slower....  Moreso he was spending time and energy doing something which was not in itself helpful which took away from his functional work...  I think similar results would be seen if a sprinter decided to dedicate a large portion of their training to surfing....   Despite that I wouldn't make the claim that surfing lowers your top speed. 

The REALLY important point that is being missed in this discussion is that the squat does not have a poor relationship with top speed because it's quad dominant but because strength movements in general have a poor relationship to top speed. Improvements to top speed simply don't come in the weight room.  I don't care if you are doing glute-thrusts and deadlifts.... they are not going to make your top speed increase significantly (one caveat - you are REALLY weak...).   

All you have to do to realize this is train with world class women.  The times I ran last season make me essentially on par with world class females.  However, when I train with a 11.0 female vs an 11.0 male it's night and day as far as acceleration.  I get out soooooooo far ahead against the women.  But, if I let a woman hang around at 50m.... She doesn't fade away by 70m.  That's the big difference.  Women who run sub-11 do it with ridiculous speed-endurance/top speed mechanics.   That's why a female like Alyson Felix who can't start and is really a 200m/400m athlete can STILL jump in the 100m and run within a few 10ths of the fastest women in the world.... because top speed mechanics/speed endurance rules the day for women. 

The point is there are women who I can out accelerate but hold top speed far better than I despite the fact that I have a bigger squat, deadlift, and more relative quad strength, hamstring strength and glute strength....   

This fact is why people say "you can't teach speed".    I don't think that's necessarily true.... but you can't teach speed through traditional relative strength increases to large leg muscle movements.   

Raptor

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Re: Squats vs. Performance
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2013, 07:02:17 pm »
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Yeah but that's maybe also a lack of training at top speed sprinting mechanics. If all you do is strength train and do acceleration work... then obviously you're missing out on that part.

I've personally never been a good accelerator... my best thing is top speed sprinting for some reason. Lack of strength comes to mind, to me it's much easier to stay isometrically contracted and bounce around. Same with one leg jumping - you just keep a stiff leg and jump.

T0ddday

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Re: Squats vs. Performance
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2013, 08:08:32 pm »
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Yeah but that's maybe also a lack of training at top speed sprinting mechanics. If all you do is strength train and do acceleration work... then obviously you're missing out on that part.

I've personally never been a good accelerator... my best thing is top speed sprinting for some reason. Lack of strength comes to mind, to me it's much easier to stay isometrically contracted and bounce around. Same with one leg jumping - you just keep a stiff leg and jump.

I dont follow your post.  Also you can't really train top speed mechanics separate from acceleration.   To run at a certain top speed you have to accelerate to get to that speed.

Really, I think the quality of the sprinter is best described by something like "acceleration maintenance".  Because holding your top speed is somewhat difficult but really the difference is how late in the ground contact cycle where one can still accelerate.   Basically to run 11 m/s you have to first run 10 m/s.... whether or not you can accelerate while already going 10 m/s...  That's the quality that really won't get better with strength training.

I'm surprised you state that your skillful at top speed sprinting.... How do you know that?  Top speed mechanics requires a between stride relaxation that a lot of people are not capable of.

TKXII

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Re: Squats vs. Performance
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2013, 10:12:23 pm »
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Bondarchuk said what T0dday just said; that improving general strength only helps beginners and does not help with elite athletes. he syudied throwers though, and found that the strongest squatters wwre definitely not the best throwers. the best throwers certainly were nlt weak howeevr in the squat.

http://www.jtsstrength.com/articles/2012/08/30/thoughts-on-bondarchuk/

I'm simply taking this a step further to delineate a motor pattern competition theory. I also agree that squatting being detrimental to my top speed may be specific to my body type - long levers short torso. However, even deadlifting makes me feel a lot slower and "stuck" to the ground. When I stop lifting heavy like a oly or pl, my legs learn a new motor pattern and this increases sprint speed, and also running vertical jump, although with running vertical jump you can be super fast and super slow and still jump really high so I'm not going to argue that my squats decreased RVJ. But I don't think they helped much.

So yea, squats hurt my sprint performance because hey inhibit knee extension during the swig phase of sprint.aybe his article can explain that better: http://inno-sport.net/Sprinter%20Symptoms.htm
"Performance during stretch-shortening cycle exercise is influenced by the visco-elastic properties of the muscle-tendon units. During stretching of an activated muscle, mechanical energy is absorbed in the tendon structures (tendon and aponeurosis) and this energy can subsequently be re-utilized if shortening of the muscle immediately follows the stretching. According to Biscotti (2000), 72% of the elastic energy restitution action comes from tendons, 28% - from contractile elements of muscles.

http://www.verkhoshansky.com/Portals/0/Presentations/Shock%20Method%20Plyometrics.pdf

Mutumbo000

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Re: Squats vs. Performance
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2013, 07:06:21 am »
+1
How can it be a 'competing motor pattern' when squatting has absolutely nothing to do with sprinting. If you go out and run lap after lap and do a lot of middle distance and long distance running/specific training for those events than I could see speed suffering- Speed will suffer because your body is compensating for endurance. However, I just can't see how going to the gym and doing a few sets of squats a week is going to affect, let alone deteriorate your speed.

Like I said in my earlier post if you think squatting isn't helping than don't squat. The results are the ultimate judge not how much you can squat.

"IMO, It didn't happen if it's not on vid/official"- adarqui

It's easier to keep up than it is to catch up...

Raptor

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Re: Squats vs. Performance
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2013, 12:20:02 pm »
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Please... "then", not "than". I just couldn't stand it anymore.

ANYWAY,

I agree with Dikembe Mutombo Mpolondo Mukamba Jean-Jacques Wamutombo - no way doing squats is detrimental at your level. If anything, it's the squat induced fatigue.

TKXII

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Re: Squats vs. Performance
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2013, 12:33:43 pm »
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Actually doing some light longer distance running helped to restablish the hamstring glute pull dominant motor pattern and helped me feel faster, this was two weeks ago - I ran a mile and a half to campus just because I felt like it and enjoyed the pull dominant sensation a couple days later, and a melting away of the squat dominant sensation I still had.

Edit: and I so hit a season best for my flying 30s that day. My quads felt "weak," I didn't feel like squatting but I felt more hamstring  dominant. That's how my body feels when I do more sprints. That's why just one sprint session during spring of this year I noticed really hurt my squats, becuase they changed that quad dom motor pattern I had and made me feel less like squatting. That's the best way I can describe it.

Try to actually sprint at top speed and maybe you'll be able to comprehend what I'm saying and what the article I just posted in my previous post said.

Fatigue? Would you prefer to believe something just because you made it up? I never train if I'm fatigued from lifting to the point where it hurts my performance.

In fact the effects of potentiation affect me so strongly that I gained 3" in vertical overnight despite being extremely sore. This was before I could squat 225lbs, sometime in the spring of 2012. I was trying to get my hand above one of the low rims and could only get like half my hand above it. I decided to do full squat jumps with 175lbs. I did three sets or so but since I hadn't squatted in a while I was extremely sore the next day. I tested my vert before hat squat jump sesh and then the day after when I was sore. Gained 3" overnight. The point is fatigue has nothing to do with this bullshit. I can sprint and jump near PR levels in a relaxed state. I cannot squat or lift anything in a relaxed state however.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 12:36:17 pm by Avishek »
"Performance during stretch-shortening cycle exercise is influenced by the visco-elastic properties of the muscle-tendon units. During stretching of an activated muscle, mechanical energy is absorbed in the tendon structures (tendon and aponeurosis) and this energy can subsequently be re-utilized if shortening of the muscle immediately follows the stretching. According to Biscotti (2000), 72% of the elastic energy restitution action comes from tendons, 28% - from contractile elements of muscles.

http://www.verkhoshansky.com/Portals/0/Presentations/Shock%20Method%20Plyometrics.pdf

T0ddday

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Re: Squats vs. Performance
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2013, 02:01:30 pm »
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How can it be a 'competing motor pattern' when squatting has absolutely nothing to do with sprinting. If you go out and run lap after lap and do a lot of middle distance and long distance running/specific training for those events than I could see speed suffering- Speed will suffer because your body is compensating for endurance. However, I just can't see how going to the gym and doing a few sets of squats a week is going to affect, let alone deteriorate your speed.


I agree that the term 'competing motor pattern' makes it sound like BS but I'm still believe that Avishek's experience isn't totally unheard of.... even if I think his interpretation of it is a little off.  A few points to remember:

1) He doesn't sprint very much.  All my experience with squatting + sprinting is with sprinters who already sprint a lot more than him.  On average we are talking about being on the track 5-6 days a week and doing about 500-1000m of speed work,  another 2000 of special endurance work, and probably 5000m of tempo running per week.  Not to mention warm-up, bounding, drills, exchange practice, sled pulls, block work, etc, etc.     The point is there we are talking about sprinters with very very well reinforced motor patterns for sprinting.... When we add squats twice a week in this case, there seems to be no detriment aside from fatigue.   I don't know if his competing motor pattern concept is true, but it could be true but only observed for an athlete like Avishek.   Most people either spend more time on the track or are relative beginners when it comes to strength/speed training and so wouldn't notice it. 

2) He also doesn't squat very much.  Relatively.   This is important because while he claims it has nothing to do with fatigue it's really subjective.... It surely isn't explicit fatigue but if his recovery from squats is not great.... he might have residual fatigue 3-5 days after moving big weight in the squat...  What would be interesting would be finding someone who is well adapted to daily squatting (like an oly lifter) and to being training them in the sprints.   Then after some point drop the squatting and see if/how much performance increases.   

I think the bottom line is that sprinting at high speed involves hip hyperextension; something not very well trained in the weight room.  Maybe that training hip extension in a ROM shorter than what is necessary for sprinting will cause the athlete to run slower?

I think Avishek's point can be true without necessarily indicating that he shouldn't squat.  Perhaps at his current strength/speed levels squatting is very detrimental to speed.  Maybe he gets faster and his missing link is a lack of isometric quadricep strength or his block work is holding him back and he will venture back into the squat rack and add some strength.... But sprinting is really a biomechanically complicated movement that the "key" isn't the same for everyone.  It's not like that pedestrian activity of double leg jumping practiced by everyone on the board.... Sprinting is much more sophisticated. 

Raptor

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Re: Squats vs. Performance
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2013, 02:22:32 pm »
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Yeah but you described soreness, not necessarily fatigue. If I lay off squatting for half a year and go and do a low volume of 3x3 or something not too much, I will still have some tremendous soreness but I won't necessarily be "fatigued". I personally can jump well with soreness, but not that much with fatigue.

I think it's interesting though to overfatigue a certain muscle and see how well you jump afterwards, and what muscle fatigue limits your jump the most.

So you could isolate the calves, quads, hamstrings, glutes etc and throw a ton of fatigue-inducing exercises and then try to jump and see where the collapse occurs etc.

For example, if you have good one-leg jumping mechanics, fatiguing the heck out of your quads but letting your hamstrings and calves alone might still allow you to jump well off one.

If I fatigue my calves or hams I'm dead off one leg, I collapse each and every time.

Raptor

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Re: Squats vs. Performance
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2013, 02:32:46 pm »
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Yeah that point about the hip hyperextension is a very good point, and that's pretty much what I was trying to say when I said "you need to practice top speed form". Because at that point, the angles of the body, the loads on the muscles, the isometric activity of the calves etc is so different than what traditionally happens in the acceleration phase and in the weight room.

That's why I like to do hip thrusts - they allow you to practice hip hyperextension under load.