Adarq.org
Performance Area => Article & Video Discussion => Topic started by: Raptor on September 28, 2013, 12:55:24 pm
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http://bretcontreras.com/insight-for-strength-coache-power-full-squats-correlations-and-training-studies/?utm_source=getresponse&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=bretcontreras&utm_content=A+Day+With+Dr.+Stu+McGill%2C+Squats+%26+Power%2C+Form+Analysis+Episode+1%2C+and+Athletic+Recovery+Research
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Makes sense. Ive seen ridiculously strong squatters who can't jump and guys that can fly with no squat specific strength. Its all movement efficiency. Of course being stronger in ratio to BW can't hurt. I'm curious to what some of these guys who can't ATG squat any weight can squat at a joint angle relative to their plant (specifically 2 foot jumpers), I'd venture to say its exponentially more.
This and ankle/hip mobility have led me to not really 'care' what squat is as long as its as deep as I can go safely/comfortably and the weights progress. Bottom line is still get strong, practice movement.
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This was truly a great read. I feel like on this forum most people take a periodized approach to training emphasizing gaining strength, but many get fixated on the gaining strength part, and then it doesn't yield the gains in athleticism that were expected.
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The article on Usain Bolt from that above article was also a neat read, although it kinda sounds like a cover letter lol to be Bolt's assistant athletic trainer:
http://bretcontreras.com/how-does-usain-bolt-train/
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Very true to your first part Avishek. You have to cultivate strength occasionally ANDthe differing stimuli from switching up training/exercises/rep schemes can shock the body towards gains as well.
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Very true to your first part Avishek. You have to cultivate strength occasionally ANDthe differing stimuli from switching up training/exercises/rep schemes can shock the body towards gains as well.
What do you mean? What purpose will cultivating strength "occasionally" vs. regularly serve? What purpose will cultivating weight room strength regularly serve? I mean that seriously as I'm really starting to doubt the use of squats and deadlifts as a valid way of improving athletic performance, or at least, as a fundamental way of improving strength. I think "strength" should be redefined, and squat strength may not have a strong correlation with force production at joint angles specific to top speed sprinting or even a running vertical jump, as much as I would like to believe it would.
To sort of answer your question in the above post, I read a while ago how the best UK long jumpers can produce over 5000N of isometric force in an isometric squat test. Don't know what the consensus is but that number isn't unachievable without good numbers in the gym.
http://www.elitetrack.com/forums/viewthread/10165/#92131
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The difference is in how your body reacts to training. Some people have issues recovering from extended strength blocks of work. For them I'd say a regular deload/peaking block would be beneficial (say every 'x' weeks) so that they don't burn out. Others may be better suited attaining certain strength goals before peaking or deloading. You can't have a generalized view of do this and this then do this as people react differently.
That also leads to your point that squats don't help this or that. Maybe for.you they don't help or don't help as much as another lift or exercise but for me...they might. Too many variable to say 'oh get a 2x bw squat and jump xx inches or run xx times'. Find what exercises work for you amd get stronger. Which leads to my last point....
Any relative strength gain should have a positive correlation to your jump/sprint times as long as you can express it efficiently. Without this you can get as strong as you want and it wont matter. You still have to practice the movements regularly to see gains.
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The difference is in how your body reacts to training.
agree.
Any relative strength gain should have a positive correlation to your jump/sprint times as long as you can express it efficiently. Without this you can get as strong as you want and it wont matter. You still have to practice the movements regularly to see gains.
Now I REALLY REALLY disagree with this. I just don't see this to be true unless the exercise in which relative strength was gained has serious transfer to the activity in question; i.e. squat strength to sprint speed, or even to running vertical jump. Even for an exercise that is more specific, such as a deadlift, increases in relative strength may be irrelevant past a certain point for a sprinter and may do more harm than good by converting type iib fibers to iia. Increases in relative squat strength from squatting may reduce a running vertical jump because now the athlete cannot handle eccentric forces as well and as fast form not jumping as often and thus will have less speed during the run up - this would be very likely to happen if you took a high jumper and told him to just squat and deadlift for a while. In my personal experience, even if I try to maintain plyometric training while strength training, strength training reduces my rate of force development no matter what. My bounding decreases, my speed and jumps decrease. My running vertical dropped 4 inches when I tested it once after I reached 315lbs in the squat. But I wasn't practicing it at all. However occasional bounding helped bring me up to PR levels. But as long as I had some deep heavy squatting in my program I could never feel as explosive as without any heavy/slow training, that could be due to the neural adaptations but also conversion of type IIb fibers to IIa. However for something more specific like the RVJ, i would jump slightly higher, not a ton higher because I was slow. As Kelly Baggett has said, the biggest gains from strength training for vertical come during the phase where we try to express the strength through more specific exercises. That's the phase I'm on now and it causes my squat/deadlift numbers to plummet a shitload, causing me to wonder why I would do it in the first place.
So theoretically increases in relative strength should increase performance in the activity in question if that activity is practiced so it might be irrelevant to bring what I just said up . . . but there is a reason why in season athletes don't strength train rigorously. And from my experience it's because it just takes away from the movements required for the sport - that's only if the strength training isn't that specific such as deep squats for TOP speed. Contrast that with hip thrusts for top speed training. In my experience with squats to improve sprints, even my acceleration feels slower with a lot of heavy squatting. But my top speed feels like absolute shit - I have no pull in my stride at all and I can feel my quads trying to push vertically into the ground like a squat, and forcing myself to pull with my hamstrings is probably what caused me to pull them nearly twice. Now I'm not spending 5d/wk on the track, but my idea is that these motor patterns compete. So strength training should be HIGHLY specific. Squatting for vertical jump increases is different. Squatting deep for increases in TOP SPEED, now that's not very specific. Deadlifts for top speed, I can't confidently say that would hurt a sprinter at all, but since I want to increase my top speed right now, I'm not going to do any deep squats (even though I badly want to).
We all can find examples to support each point certainly; the athletes in Contreras's article cast doubt on traditional strength training but inspirational stories from Kingfush's training journal, the Rutgersdunker youtube channel, and other accounts of people improving athleticism through traditional strength training provide support for the idea that increases in relative strength improve performance in sport (neither of them are sprinting though, well Kingfush has said he wants to do a 60 don't know if he has yet). Maybe this shows that people respond differently to training . . . if they're increasing their vertical jump, increasing force production and spending less time on the ground, it doesn't matter how they got there. But maybe their muscles/tendons are acting completely differently; the people who squat a lot may jump using different machinery than people like jordan kilganon who is just a beast who can't squat much at all.
With my experiences in improving running vertical jump, I think squatting has helped me absorb more force during the plant and has increased my movement efficiency during the movement and overall has increased running vert, but slightly more so for reasons other than being able to squat more. I simply feel "weaker" when I start to do exercises that are supposed to convert the strength to speed and power and I lose strength so once I again I just question what the point of doing it was. Efforts to maintain strength simply result in my being slower because I spend time doing slow lifting... I'm not trying to get attached to any one specific idea so I am starting to let go of training for max strength but if someone can explain in depth how to set up a proper program to avoid competing motor patterns I would be delighted to read it.
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But as long as I had some deep heavy squatting in my program I could never feel as explosive as without any heavy/slow training,
Have you considered that it could be because you're just tired/sore from the weight training? That would be a pretty reasonable explanation without resorting to the claim that weight trianing isn't helpful when it has been the way almost everyone on this forum who has made big gains has come by them.
but there is a reason why in season athletes don't strength train rigorously.
Yeah, because it would fucking tire them out for their practices and matches and add a needless risk of injury. They should have taken care of their strength requirements in off-season.
if someone can explain in depth how to set up a proper program to avoid competing motor patterns I would be delighted to read it.
Read adarq's ratio method post in the performance blog.
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To sort of answer your question in the above post, I read a while ago how the best UK long jumpers can produce over 5000N of isometric force in an isometric squat test. Don't know what the consensus is but that number isn't unachievable without good numbers in the gym.
http://www.elitetrack.com/forums/viewthread/10165/#92131
Made a quick search:
http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/211_fall2002.web.dir/peter_broady/pages/Thesquat.htm
The Physics of the Squat
What makes squatting the most effective lift? The answer is the downward pull of gravity on the lifter. The squatter is essentially pushing directly against gravity. Gravity is a an attractive force that acts on every thing that has mass in the universe. Isaac Newton, famous physicist and mathematician, discovered the laws that govern this force. His law of universal gravitation states that:
Every particle in the Universe attracts every other particle with a force that is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them.
From this law, the the acceleration due to this force of gravity near the surface of the earth is approximately 9.8 meters per second squared. This means that if two object are dropped from the same height, they will hit the ground at the same time, regardless of how much they weigh(of course, one must neglect air resistance). This is how weight is defined. An objects weight is defined as the acceleration of gravity g multiplied by its mass m (mg). For example, a person having a mass of 50 kilograms(kg) would have a weight of 490 kg meters per second squared, or 490 Newtons(N). The acceleration of gravity constant was found using Newton's famous three laws of motion:
1. In the absence of external forces, an object at rest remains at rest and an object in motion remains in motion with a constant velocity.
2. The acceleration of an object is directly proportional to the net force acting on it and inversely proportional to its mass.(The equation (F=ma, or Force=mass * acceleration).
3. If two objects interact,the force exerted by the first object on the second object is equal in magnitude and opposite in direction to the force by the second object on the first.
The Squat incorporates all of these laws. For example, take the man squatting in the picture below. Let's say that he has a mass of 100 kg and the weight has a mass of about 350 kg. What force must he exert on the bar to stop himself at parallel, the position shown in the picture?
( www.graphics.stanford.edu)
Let's call the mass of the man m and the mass of the weight M. The total downward force acting is:
F = mg + Mg = (100 kg)(9.8 m/s^2) + (350 kg)(9.8 m/s^2) = 4410 N
Since F = ma and the man, at this instant he is at parallel is not accelerating, therefore a =0 and the net force acting in the system must equal 0. This means that the man must exert a force equal and opposite to the force applied. This force is called a normal force(n). The downward force exerted on the man is 4410 N, so when he is sitting at parallel, he must be exerting a force of 4410 N as well. This problem is an example of static equilibrium, or when an object has no acceleration, making the net force equal to zero. The man must exert a force greater than 4410 N to lift the weight from parallel.
What force must the man exert to accelerate the weights up at 1 m/s^2? Once again, we use Newton's second law, F = ma. The equation for the forces acting on the object is:
F = ma = n - (M + m)g = n - 4410= (450kg)(1 m/s^2)
n = force of man = 450 N + 4410 N = 4860 N
The man must exert a force of 4860 N on the bar to accelerate the weights at 1 m/s^2.
Long story short: 4860N is the force that a 100kg man needs to apply to squat 350kg ( 3,5*BW ) with the bar accelerating up with 1m/sec2. This means he would complete the lift in less than 2 seconds.
Can you please explain how 'that number isn't unachievable without good numbers in the gym' about 5000N ?
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Lifting won't do anything for top speed because that's mainly genetic.
"The squat becomes a poor measure of strength at maximum velocity. At this speed an athlete must exhibit extremely brief powerful single leg ground contact and the squat does not accurately predict their ability to produce power in this movement".
However, I believe squatting does improve your acceleration and can improve the start of your races, which will end up making you a faster runner. I was reading a book about Ben Johnson and Carl Lewis called 'The Dirtiest Race in History'. In the book it said even as far back as 1981 athletes were commenting on how impressive Ben Johnson's strength was in squatting. Back than in 1981 Johnson was running 100s in 10.8, however, he was leading a lot of faster guys than him in races up to 50m but just couldn't maintain the speed. He was always a brilliant starter and I attribute that to his natural strength and squatting. Ben Johnson didn't like cleans so he didn't do cleans. Same as Michael Johnson allegedly didn't do squats preferring lunges, so he did lunges. A guy like Linford Christie lives and dies by the squat believing it's an integral part of a sprinter's training. Same as Asafa Powell believes strongly in weights. But than you'll have other guys like Kim Collins who once again claim they don't even lift.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cmv65yElP8A
Point being if you like an exercise and think it benefits you than do it. If you don't like it or think it doesn't benefit you than don't do it. The ultimate judge is always going to be your performance on the court, field or track that counts, not what you can do in the weight room.
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There's so much to write about what Avishek said... but long story short - if you lack in muscle mass and in the power that muscle mass would give you (improving your relative strength) then you need to squat deep because that's the best muscle builder. You don't squat deep for specificity purposes, you're just building a bigger engine.
When you do that you're obviously masking any explosiveness you've gained through the squat induced fatigue. You don't need to be a genius to figure that out.
And when you stop squatting you're basically eliminating that squatting fatigue and then you say "wow I don't squat and look how powerful I am now!" when in fact you're powerful because of the gains you made with the squat in the past, that are now displaying without that fatigue.
And since you're not squatting you're obviously going to lose squatting movement efficiency and then you're going to say "my squat has gone lower yet look at how much more explosive I am now, so then it must mean squatting was bad for my power".
Just use your brain a bit.
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It's obvious to me if you're a an athlete in a competitive sport you benefit from having larger muscles. And if lifting weights helps you build mass then they're a useful tool. This is without looking at the strength/performance aspect which I don't really understand very well. But if you have large strong quads, you are a better basketball player in the post, you become a strong immovable object when you plant those bad boys down and hold your position. If you're a stick like me, regardless of what you're squatting and what it does for your SVJ (wonders), it doesn't mean anything in the real world of competitive basketball. Yes i'm bitter and cynical but whatever, idgaf.
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Lifting won't do anything for top speed because that's mainly genetic.
"The squat becomes a poor measure of strength at maximum velocity. At this speed an athlete must exhibit extremely brief powerful single leg ground contact and the squat does not accurately predict their ability to produce power in this movement".
However, I believe squatting does improve your acceleration and can improve the start of your races, which will end up making you a faster runner. I was reading a book about Ben Johnson and Carl Lewis called 'The Dirtiest Race in History'. In the book it said even as far back as 1981 athletes were commenting on how impressive Ben Johnson's strength was in squatting. Back than in 1981 Johnson was running 100s in 10.8, however, he was leading a lot of faster guys than him in races up to 50m but just couldn't maintain the speed. He was always a brilliant starter and I attribute that to his natural strength and squatting. Ben Johnson didn't like cleans so he didn't do cleans. Same as Michael Johnson allegedly didn't do squats preferring lunges, so he did lunges. A guy like Linford Christie lives and dies by the squat believing it's an integral part of a sprinter's training. Same as Asafa Powell believes strongly in weights. But than you'll have other guys like Kim Collins who once again claim they don't even lift.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cmv65yElP8A
Point being if you like an exercise and think it benefits you than do it. If you don't like it or think it doesn't benefit you than don't do it. The ultimate judge is always going to be your performance on the court, field or track that counts, not what you can do in the weight room.
I'm pretty sure Charlie Francis said that Johnson squatted 600x6 (not sure on depth) and benched 450.
http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showthread.php?19380-Ben-Johnson-Squat-1rm
http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showthread.php?19380-Ben-Johnson-Squat-1rm
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I'm at work and at my phone so I'll give a more detailed answer lately but what jumps out at.me is what you quoted from me, specifically 'you have to practice the movement regularly'. Then in your first paragraph of rebuttal you state
'(Paraphrased) all my RFD base movements decreased...but I wasn't practicing them'
How can you disagree then say that? Kelley is right. Most if not all gains (depending on the level of athlete) will come not during the strength training segment but when they actually practice more related exercises or do the actual movement. Well, yea! But as Raptor stated build a big motor then make it efficient. A 2L motor operating at 95% volumetric efficiency wont make the same power as a 4L motor operating at 95% VE. (All other things equal like cam profile, static/dynamic compression ratios, etc [read fast twitch fiber ratio, tendon lengths, bone structure ;) ])
and yes, I'm a car fanatic and spend way to much on my cars lol
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Lifting won't do anything for top speed because that's mainly genetic.
"The squat becomes a poor measure of strength at maximum velocity. At this speed an athlete must exhibit extremely brief powerful single leg ground contact and the squat does not accurately predict their ability to produce power in this movement".
However, I believe squatting does improve your acceleration and can improve the start of your races, which will end up making you a faster runner. I was reading a book about Ben Johnson and Carl Lewis called 'The Dirtiest Race in History'. In the book it said even as far back as 1981 athletes were commenting on how impressive Ben Johnson's strength was in squatting. Back than in 1981 Johnson was running 100s in 10.8, however, he was leading a lot of faster guys than him in races up to 50m but just couldn't maintain the speed. He was always a brilliant starter and I attribute that to his natural strength and squatting. Ben Johnson didn't like cleans so he didn't do cleans. Same as Michael Johnson allegedly didn't do squats preferring lunges, so he did lunges. A guy like Linford Christie lives and dies by the squat believing it's an integral part of a sprinter's training. Same as Asafa Powell believes strongly in weights. But than you'll have other guys like Kim Collins who once again claim they don't even lift.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cmv65yElP8A
Point being if you like an exercise and think it benefits you than do it. If you don't like it or think it doesn't benefit you than don't do it. The ultimate judge is always going to be your performance on the court, field or track that counts, not what you can do in the weight room.
I'm pretty sure Charlie Francis said that Johnson squatted 600x6 (not sure on depth) and benched 450.
http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showthread.php?19380-Ben-Johnson-Squat-1rm
http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showthread.php?19380-Ben-Johnson-Squat-1rm
I think the book said he was squatting around 500lbs in 1981 (actually it could've been 1984- either way it was years before his peak) and he was also benching 170kg (373lbs). He was definitely a strong dude. At the 1984 Olympics he had an altercation with Lennox Lewis the boxer. Lennox put him in a headlock and Johnson managed to throw Lennox over his shoulders onto the pool table.
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haven't read everything but in response to a few people i'll reiterate:
1. No I wasn't tired. at all. my legs moved differently and i was slower when I was in a qud dominant state from doing a lot of squats/lunges. Take away squats and it seems to free up my legs to move properly for top speed
2. Practicing the movements WHILE squatting still was counterproductive. I'm talking about top speed here. (For running vertical jump I think that's more complex to discuss, but not practicing jumping made me lose power, and squatting more couldn't make up for it). It was like I got sort of good at each one but they hindered each other. This becomes really apparent AFTER acceleration. Most studies I've looked at today study squat/sprint times up to 30m sprints and no further so I'll need to find more articles.
3. Ben Johnson is the only sprinter to my knowledge who squatted that much and those were 1/2 box squats. I've met a 10.1 sprinter who quarter squatted 585 for reps. He called them "power squats." I feel like half and quarter squats do NOT lead to the same quad dominant feeling that slows me down on the track.
http://speedendurance.com/2013/01/21/3-reasons-the-squat-is-not-the-cornerstone-of-strength-training-for-sprinters/
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Well the truth is the squat is a quad dominant movement (yes, there are the low bar squats etc but I've rarely seen athletes do low bar squats, personally at least).
In a sprint, which is a horizontal movement to begin with, the hamstrings and glutes play a much more important role. Then there's the structure thing. A guy made for sprinting isn't necessarily made for squatting. There's a bunch of stuff going on.
But the thing is - anything that you do that gets you STRONGER, ANYWHERE, assuming you have the correct movement mechanics, no mobility issues and a good agonist/antagonist balance - is also going to make you faster. At least it shouldn't make you slower, if anything.
That's why you have periodization for athletes - different phases, different exercises and different EXPRESSIONS of power and strength. Ultimately you want the non-specific strength and power exercises to carryover to the specific power and reactive "stuff" that you do.
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Bingo Raptor. Its also why the article doesn't say 'stop squatting' but does advise placing more emphasis on hip driven lifts both in importance and volume. Seems reasonable to me.
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Yeah it's like doing bench presses to help with overhead throwing power... well that's a stretch but you get the idea. You could just as well do overhead presses, but the overhead presses have less growth room than the bench press. Neither of them is a bad idea and improving on either one will give you some beneficial power in that event.
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You guys are missing one REALLY important point when it comes to top-speed and strength. First, I want to reiterate that I think Avisheks claim that squatting caused his top speed to be drastically lowered is highly individual; most athletes I have seen training do not suffer a huge decrease if you simply add squatting to a program squatting....
The truth is that adding squatting (unless one is REALLY weak) will usually also provide ZERO increase to your top sprinting speed. Throw in the decreased recovery, perhaps minor overeating, lack of speed work, and I wouldn't be surprised if Avishek experienced a moderate drop in speed but I would bet it was less that he was doing something (squatting) which directly made him slower.... Moreso he was spending time and energy doing something which was not in itself helpful which took away from his functional work... I think similar results would be seen if a sprinter decided to dedicate a large portion of their training to surfing.... Despite that I wouldn't make the claim that surfing lowers your top speed.
The REALLY important point that is being missed in this discussion is that the squat does not have a poor relationship with top speed because it's quad dominant but because strength movements in general have a poor relationship to top speed. Improvements to top speed simply don't come in the weight room. I don't care if you are doing glute-thrusts and deadlifts.... they are not going to make your top speed increase significantly (one caveat - you are REALLY weak...).
All you have to do to realize this is train with world class women. The times I ran last season make me essentially on par with world class females. However, when I train with a 11.0 female vs an 11.0 male it's night and day as far as acceleration. I get out soooooooo far ahead against the women. But, if I let a woman hang around at 50m.... She doesn't fade away by 70m. That's the big difference. Women who run sub-11 do it with ridiculous speed-endurance/top speed mechanics. That's why a female like Alyson Felix who can't start and is really a 200m/400m athlete can STILL jump in the 100m and run within a few 10ths of the fastest women in the world.... because top speed mechanics/speed endurance rules the day for women.
The point is there are women who I can out accelerate but hold top speed far better than I despite the fact that I have a bigger squat, deadlift, and more relative quad strength, hamstring strength and glute strength....
This fact is why people say "you can't teach speed". I don't think that's necessarily true.... but you can't teach speed through traditional relative strength increases to large leg muscle movements.
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Yeah but that's maybe also a lack of training at top speed sprinting mechanics. If all you do is strength train and do acceleration work... then obviously you're missing out on that part.
I've personally never been a good accelerator... my best thing is top speed sprinting for some reason. Lack of strength comes to mind, to me it's much easier to stay isometrically contracted and bounce around. Same with one leg jumping - you just keep a stiff leg and jump.
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Yeah but that's maybe also a lack of training at top speed sprinting mechanics. If all you do is strength train and do acceleration work... then obviously you're missing out on that part.
I've personally never been a good accelerator... my best thing is top speed sprinting for some reason. Lack of strength comes to mind, to me it's much easier to stay isometrically contracted and bounce around. Same with one leg jumping - you just keep a stiff leg and jump.
I dont follow your post. Also you can't really train top speed mechanics separate from acceleration. To run at a certain top speed you have to accelerate to get to that speed.
Really, I think the quality of the sprinter is best described by something like "acceleration maintenance". Because holding your top speed is somewhat difficult but really the difference is how late in the ground contact cycle where one can still accelerate. Basically to run 11 m/s you have to first run 10 m/s.... whether or not you can accelerate while already going 10 m/s... That's the quality that really won't get better with strength training.
I'm surprised you state that your skillful at top speed sprinting.... How do you know that? Top speed mechanics requires a between stride relaxation that a lot of people are not capable of.
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Bondarchuk said what T0dday just said; that improving general strength only helps beginners and does not help with elite athletes. he syudied throwers though, and found that the strongest squatters wwre definitely not the best throwers. the best throwers certainly were nlt weak howeevr in the squat.
http://www.jtsstrength.com/articles/2012/08/30/thoughts-on-bondarchuk/
I'm simply taking this a step further to delineate a motor pattern competition theory. I also agree that squatting being detrimental to my top speed may be specific to my body type - long levers short torso. However, even deadlifting makes me feel a lot slower and "stuck" to the ground. When I stop lifting heavy like a oly or pl, my legs learn a new motor pattern and this increases sprint speed, and also running vertical jump, although with running vertical jump you can be super fast and super slow and still jump really high so I'm not going to argue that my squats decreased RVJ. But I don't think they helped much.
So yea, squats hurt my sprint performance because hey inhibit knee extension during the swig phase of sprint.aybe his article can explain that better: http://inno-sport.net/Sprinter%20Symptoms.htm
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How can it be a 'competing motor pattern' when squatting has absolutely nothing to do with sprinting. If you go out and run lap after lap and do a lot of middle distance and long distance running/specific training for those events than I could see speed suffering- Speed will suffer because your body is compensating for endurance. However, I just can't see how going to the gym and doing a few sets of squats a week is going to affect, let alone deteriorate your speed.
Like I said in my earlier post if you think squatting isn't helping than don't squat. The results are the ultimate judge not how much you can squat.
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Please... "then", not "than". I just couldn't stand it anymore.
ANYWAY,
I agree with Dikembe Mutombo Mpolondo Mukamba Jean-Jacques Wamutombo - no way doing squats is detrimental at your level. If anything, it's the squat induced fatigue.
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Actually doing some light longer distance running helped to restablish the hamstring glute pull dominant motor pattern and helped me feel faster, this was two weeks ago - I ran a mile and a half to campus just because I felt like it and enjoyed the pull dominant sensation a couple days later, and a melting away of the squat dominant sensation I still had.
Edit: and I so hit a season best for my flying 30s that day. My quads felt "weak," I didn't feel like squatting but I felt more hamstring dominant. That's how my body feels when I do more sprints. That's why just one sprint session during spring of this year I noticed really hurt my squats, becuase they changed that quad dom motor pattern I had and made me feel less like squatting. That's the best way I can describe it.
Try to actually sprint at top speed and maybe you'll be able to comprehend what I'm saying and what the article I just posted in my previous post said.
Fatigue? Would you prefer to believe something just because you made it up? I never train if I'm fatigued from lifting to the point where it hurts my performance.
In fact the effects of potentiation affect me so strongly that I gained 3" in vertical overnight despite being extremely sore. This was before I could squat 225lbs, sometime in the spring of 2012. I was trying to get my hand above one of the low rims and could only get like half my hand above it. I decided to do full squat jumps with 175lbs. I did three sets or so but since I hadn't squatted in a while I was extremely sore the next day. I tested my vert before hat squat jump sesh and then the day after when I was sore. Gained 3" overnight. The point is fatigue has nothing to do with this bullshit. I can sprint and jump near PR levels in a relaxed state. I cannot squat or lift anything in a relaxed state however.
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How can it be a 'competing motor pattern' when squatting has absolutely nothing to do with sprinting. If you go out and run lap after lap and do a lot of middle distance and long distance running/specific training for those events than I could see speed suffering- Speed will suffer because your body is compensating for endurance. However, I just can't see how going to the gym and doing a few sets of squats a week is going to affect, let alone deteriorate your speed.
I agree that the term 'competing motor pattern' makes it sound like BS but I'm still believe that Avishek's experience isn't totally unheard of.... even if I think his interpretation of it is a little off. A few points to remember:
1) He doesn't sprint very much. All my experience with squatting + sprinting is with sprinters who already sprint a lot more than him. On average we are talking about being on the track 5-6 days a week and doing about 500-1000m of speed work, another 2000 of special endurance work, and probably 5000m of tempo running per week. Not to mention warm-up, bounding, drills, exchange practice, sled pulls, block work, etc, etc. The point is there we are talking about sprinters with very very well reinforced motor patterns for sprinting.... When we add squats twice a week in this case, there seems to be no detriment aside from fatigue. I don't know if his competing motor pattern concept is true, but it could be true but only observed for an athlete like Avishek. Most people either spend more time on the track or are relative beginners when it comes to strength/speed training and so wouldn't notice it.
2) He also doesn't squat very much. Relatively. This is important because while he claims it has nothing to do with fatigue it's really subjective.... It surely isn't explicit fatigue but if his recovery from squats is not great.... he might have residual fatigue 3-5 days after moving big weight in the squat... What would be interesting would be finding someone who is well adapted to daily squatting (like an oly lifter) and to being training them in the sprints. Then after some point drop the squatting and see if/how much performance increases.
I think the bottom line is that sprinting at high speed involves hip hyperextension; something not very well trained in the weight room. Maybe that training hip extension in a ROM shorter than what is necessary for sprinting will cause the athlete to run slower?
I think Avishek's point can be true without necessarily indicating that he shouldn't squat. Perhaps at his current strength/speed levels squatting is very detrimental to speed. Maybe he gets faster and his missing link is a lack of isometric quadricep strength or his block work is holding him back and he will venture back into the squat rack and add some strength.... But sprinting is really a biomechanically complicated movement that the "key" isn't the same for everyone. It's not like that pedestrian activity of double leg jumping practiced by everyone on the board.... Sprinting is much more sophisticated.
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Yeah but you described soreness, not necessarily fatigue. If I lay off squatting for half a year and go and do a low volume of 3x3 or something not too much, I will still have some tremendous soreness but I won't necessarily be "fatigued". I personally can jump well with soreness, but not that much with fatigue.
I think it's interesting though to overfatigue a certain muscle and see how well you jump afterwards, and what muscle fatigue limits your jump the most.
So you could isolate the calves, quads, hamstrings, glutes etc and throw a ton of fatigue-inducing exercises and then try to jump and see where the collapse occurs etc.
For example, if you have good one-leg jumping mechanics, fatiguing the heck out of your quads but letting your hamstrings and calves alone might still allow you to jump well off one.
If I fatigue my calves or hams I'm dead off one leg, I collapse each and every time.
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Yeah that point about the hip hyperextension is a very good point, and that's pretty much what I was trying to say when I said "you need to practice top speed form". Because at that point, the angles of the body, the loads on the muscles, the isometric activity of the calves etc is so different than what traditionally happens in the acceleration phase and in the weight room.
That's why I like to do hip thrusts - they allow you to practice hip hyperextension under load.
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i find it crazy how we still dont exactly know what soreness is and what exactly causes it
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Bondarchuk said what T0dday just said; that improving general strength only helps beginners and does not help with elite athletes. he syudied throwers though, and found that the strongest squatters wwre definitely not the best throwers. the best throwers certainly were nlt weak howeevr in the squat.
I think this is dead on.
Bondarchuck found that impoving general strength improves performance in beginners, intermediates, and lower level advanced athletes. Thing is most of us discussing here and most of the athletes we will be coaching fall into these categories.
Even then he also found that improving strength in some exercises improves performance in elite athletes. So it comes down to figuring out what carries over to what. I think the full squat does not carry over as well to sprinting as a narrower stance (hip width), hip loaded, 1/3 squat (just above hamstring parallel). squat.
So then the question is What is a squat?
The other question is why are we squatting?
I call my variation a performance squat. I started using it after watching my fastest athletes squat and move. This is what they generally gravitated to. Cal Deitz uses a similar squat that he calls the sport back squat. Are we full squat, ATG, powerlifting, front, hi bar, lo bar, performance?
Then thinking about levels of athletes. Beginners and intermediaes may benefit most from full squats or SS style. Even advanced athletes in the general strength phase or when in strength maintenance mode (keep in mingd any strength training is GPP). Beginners and intermediates should get after it. Advanced could program like easy strength or even easier strength. This way they lift heavy, not hard. the fatigue doesnt interfere with the SPP. The performance/sport squat is more of an SPP squat and suited as we start focusing on competition.
why are we squtting is to increase strength, to move the force velocity curve over, which improves power output. You can get stronger in squats, lunges, deadlifts, etc... doesn;t really matter.its strengthening the thighs and hips that matters.
wow this rambled a bit
Moral of the story is get stronger in the hips and thighs (squats and deads are most time efficient) As you advance decrease the volume of these lifts in the program. Still lift heavy, but not hard. shift more focus onto spp type stuff. Unless you judge sporting imprvement on an annual or semi annual basis (you get better 1-2x/year) you are an intermediate and strength will still help. somewhere around an advanced intermediate stage move towards a less voluminous approach.
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I agree that the term 'competing motor pattern' makes it sound like BS but I'm still believe that Avishek's experience isn't totally unheard of.... even if I think his interpretation of it is a little off. A few points to remember:
It's not a little on, it's a lot on, but unfortunately there aren't studies that talk about this stuff - that's probably because most athletes don't spend the bulk of their time with 85+% 1RM training on a weekly basis . . . but my obsessive nature led to me lifting 85% percent basically 100% of the time and that made me slower, it's as obvious as night and day how quickly a heavy lifting session affects my athleticism and agility.
1) He doesn't sprint very much.
That would not matter in my experience at all. Running 5-6 days a week would be great for reinforcing a pull dominant sprint pattern, but it would kill my squats. Every time I squat it would reinforce a quad dominant pattern and it would just be masked better by running more often.
2) He also doesn't squat very much. Relatively. This is important because while he claims it has nothing to do with fatigue it's really subjective.... It surely isn't explicit fatigue but if his recovery from squats is not great.... he might have residual fatigue 3-5 days after moving big weight in the squat... What would be interesting would be finding someone who is well adapted to daily squatting (like an oly lifter) and to being training them in the sprints. Then after some point drop the squatting and see if/how much performance increases.
Oly squatting is much lower volume than squatting I did. I maxed out on sets of doubles/triples every time I squatted until I started doing higher volume, then I still maxed. My relative squat at my best was 2.12. Not a lot, but I also have long levers, and used a pretty narrow stance (heels 8inches apart) so honestly if you look at the moment arms I'm lifting a lot more than someone else with shorter levers.
What is residual fatigue? If I raced against the hamsrting dominant 2012 version of me he would beat me past 30m with the same amount of "residual fatigue" I had any day. I didn't even need to try to sprint hard to run really fast, because the speed was just there.
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I think this is dead on.
Bondarchuck found that impoving general strength improves performance in beginners, intermediates, and lower level advanced athletes. Thing is most of us discussing here and most of the athletes we will be coaching fall into these categories.
Even then he also found that improving strength in some exercises improves performance in elite athletes. So it comes down to figuring out what carries over to what. I think the full squat does not carry over as well to sprinting as a narrower stance (hip width), hip loaded, 1/3 squat (just above hamstring parallel). squat.
I think what he would say the moral of the story was was to build some general strength until you aren't weak then do sport specific training exclusively because general strength training doesn't help any further after a certain point. So 1/3 squats yes.
And I'm gonna start doing that more, 1/3 squats (well I'm thinking knee angle of like 120 degrees here), I find a better potentiation from my 1/3 squat jumps compared to my 1/2 squat jumps (above parallel, about 90 degrees).
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I agree that the term 'competing motor pattern' makes it sound like BS but I'm still believe that Avishek's experience isn't totally unheard of.... even if I think his interpretation of it is a little off. A few points to remember:
It's not a little on, it's a lot on, but unfortunately there aren't studies that talk about this stuff - that's probably because most athletes don't spend the bulk of their time with 85+% 1RM training on a weekly basis . . . but my obsessive nature led to me lifting 85% percent basically 100% of the time and that made me slower, it's as obvious as night and day how quickly a heavy lifting session affects my athleticism and agility.
1) He doesn't sprint very much.
That would not matter in my experience at all. Running 5-6 days a week would be great for reinforcing a pull dominant sprint pattern, but it would kill my squats. Every time I squat it would reinforce a quad dominant pattern and it would just be masked better by running more often.
2) He also doesn't squat very much. Relatively. This is important because while he claims it has nothing to do with fatigue it's really subjective.... It surely isn't explicit fatigue but if his recovery from squats is not great.... he might have residual fatigue 3-5 days after moving big weight in the squat... What would be interesting would be finding someone who is well adapted to daily squatting (like an oly lifter) and to being training them in the sprints. Then after some point drop the squatting and see if/how much performance increases.
Oly squatting is much lower volume than squatting I did. I maxed out on sets of doubles/triples every time I squatted until I started doing higher volume, then I still maxed. My relative squat at my best was 2.12. Not a lot, but I also have long levers, and used a pretty narrow stance (heels 8inches apart) so honestly if you look at the moment arms I'm lifting a lot more than someone else with shorter levers.
What is residual fatigue? If I raced against the hamsrting dominant 2012 version of me he would beat me past 30m with the same amount of "residual fatigue" I had any day. I didn't even need to try to sprint hard to run really fast, because the speed was just there.
I think this is dead on.
Bondarchuck found that impoving general strength improves performance in beginners, intermediates, and lower level advanced athletes. Thing is most of us discussing here and most of the athletes we will be coaching fall into these categories.
Even then he also found that improving strength in some exercises improves performance in elite athletes. So it comes down to figuring out what carries over to what. I think the full squat does not carry over as well to sprinting as a narrower stance (hip width), hip loaded, 1/3 squat (just above hamstring parallel). squat.
Certainly you could be dead on, but I hesitate to say something is a lot on when n = 1. The amount of genes I have looked at in lab and been SURE that they were disease hits until we got more data..... Many.
Huh? Why does it not matter that you don't sprint much? That's why it totally would matter. I was making your point for you, eg its possible squats made you slower despite the fact I have many many examples of sprinters for whom squatting didn't make them slower. The point is it wouldn't kill your squats if it is all you know.... Sprinters sprint. That's what they do from jump. Then someone makes us squat after practices and we start squatting. We can't tell if sprinting is killing our squats because we didn't squat without sprinting ever. But it doesn't necessarily make sprinters slower. It makes you slower. One reason might be that you are not adding squats to sprinters program, but trying to sprint while switching to prioritizing squats... That's not common.
What volume is oly squatting? I don't know about all oly squatting but the only gym I ever trained at (broz gym in vegas) had them twice daily workouts which were something along the lines of work out to a max, 6 triples, 2x5. High volume and intensity and they do it for years. I imagine they must get somewhat accustomed to it. One interesting bit of info is the coach of that gym absolutely HATED sprinting/lunges or anything unilateral because it "built the wrong coordination". Just one opinion though, at Waxman's gym in LA he has his lifters run intervals every so often in GPP.
One thing I either don't understand or don't agree with is these terms... Does hamstring dominant mean faster? What is a pull dominant pattern? I don't understand why sprinting is "pulling". Sure the hamstrings act as a hip-extensor but pulling and pawback are universally regarded as horrible cues for sprinters because they actually encourage GCT. Just look at Asafa Powell and Michael Johnson run. They are both sprinters who run with MV of close to 13 m/s. Ridiculously fast. But the motor pattern that they use to achieve it is pretty different. I think this is part of the problem with your statement... Sprinting is more diverse than squatting; it's possible that what you experience might not be the same for someone who runs differently.... Not as much true in squatting.
Residual fatigue is just the point that you can't really disentangle fatigue and aberrant motor patterning because acquiring the aberrant motor pattern ALSO induces fatigue. If you took this really fast 2012 version of yourself and got the same amount of residual fatigue to do this test.... Wouldn't the 2012 version of you now be slow (because you got the fatigue by doing squats???).... That's what I dont get.
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Certainly you could be dead on, but I hesitate to say something is a lot on when n = 1.
it's more than one. I have posted articles where people talk about quad dominance from squatting. I have described it in more detail than anything i have read however.
Huh? Why does it not matter that you don't sprint much?
Because the idea is that if it competes with the motor pattern, it's counterproductive, so just sprinting more will mask the problem, rather than fix it, and thus it isn't worth doing.
That's why it totally would matter. I was making your point for you, eg its possible squats made you slower despite the fact I have many many examples of sprinters for whom squatting didn't make them slower.
There are very few sprinters squatting like me, long levers with a knee dominant full squat. Most athletes who say they squat do 1/2 squats, and I hypothesize that the way those exercises wire the motor patterns are different enough to affect sprinting form significantly. However even a hip dominant squat for me makes me feel quad dominant just because squats are quad dominant.
Perhaps in athletes who are naturally hip dominant, squats feel different than they do for me. I'm naturally quad dominant.
One reason might be that you are not adding squats to sprinters program, but trying to sprint while switching to prioritizing squats... That's not common.
Yea I agree with this. But doing it the other way around I feel would still affect me.
What volume is oly squatting?
I was referring to a training program where athletes work up to a single, a couple times a day, no doubles or trples or anything like that. Max singles, 14 times a week. But I'm not very well versed on oly squat methods, i'm sure some are high volumes. However I thnk powerlifters tend to use much higher volume than oly. Broz gym sounds like a hybrid. I think if I was JUST squatting I could do that, but not if I'm doing a bunch of other stuff.
One interesting bit of info is the coach of that gym absolutely HATED sprinting/lunges or anything unilateral because it "built the wrong coordination". Just one opinion though, at Waxman's gym in LA he has his lifters run intervals every so often in GPP.
Yea that sounds exactly like what I'm talking about. When worked on getting to 315 in the backsquat, just one sprint workout could ruin an entire week's worth of training. I felt weaker in coming out of the hole, and "felt" more like doing half squats and jumps, from being more explosive. That occurred if I did longer sprints like 150s, not speed work as much. So this competing motor pattern idea affected me not just when trying to improve sprints but when trying to get stronger in the gym.
The only exercise that was not affected oddly enough (for legs) was lunges. They got consistently stronger despite major plateaus in squats.
One thing I either don't understand or don't agree with is these terms... Does hamstring dominant mean faster? What is a pull dominant pattern? I don't understand why sprinting is "pulling". Sure the hamstrings act as a hip-extensor but pulling and pawback are universally regarded as horrible cues for sprinters because they actually encourage GCT.
I agree... and I'll take your word for it, but I've read that's a bad cue too.
By pull dominant I mean I'm using my hamstrings more, meaning there is greater knee extension occurring before each footstrike. When I'm quad dominant, it's as if the hamstring is frozen slightly, or restricted, and I don't naturally extend the knee as much, and I assume that means i'm using my quads more.
I am not sure if that implies I am applying more horizontal forces when I'm hamstring dominant, versus quad dominant, but that's a hypothesis.
No it doesn't mean I'm faster always when hamstring dominant, but my top speed form is very natural. Whereas these days in a quad dominant form it feels forced. I feel like if I'm hamstring dominant like in the past, my acceleration feels weaker however.
Just look at Asafa Powell and Michael Johnson run. They are both sprinters who run with MV of close to 13 m/s. Ridiculously fast. But the motor pattern that they use to achieve it is pretty different. I think this is part of the problem with your statement... Sprinting is more diverse than squatting; it's possible that what you experience might not be the same for someone who runs differently.... Not as much true in squatting.
Good point, yea sprinting must be diverse, however in the past 3 years of squatting I've found it to be diverse too.
I first started squatting with a wider stance, I have assumed now that to mean my feet are around 15-18'' apart when measured at the heels.
I last year decided to move heels 8-10'' apart, but even then, the way my limbs moved weren't always the same. I felt distinct differences on different days in how my legs moved. In vibrams v barefeet it felt completely different; with vibrams my vmos would be really sore, but with barefeet my glutes would get pretty sore, and quads too but not vmos as directly.
But even in just barefeet sometimes my knees would fold more and I would feel in vmos... so it has been very diverse for me actually.
Residual fatigue is just the point that you can't really disentangle fatigue and aberrant motor patterning because acquiring the aberrant motor pattern ALSO induces fatigue. If you took this really fast 2012 version of yourself and got the same amount of residual fatigue to do this test.... Wouldn't the 2012 version of you now be slow (because you got the fatigue by doing squats???).... That's what I dont get.
Yea, i dno... i really really doubt residual fatigue from squatting made me feel slow, or that the aberrant motor patterning induces fatigue, i wouldn't call it "aberrant" though because the motor pattern was great for squats, but expressed itself on the track. I couldn't get rid of it. I could distinctly feel my hamstrings being inhibited by a lesser knee extension angle during the flight phase of sprinting, and I could not force it to happen, and if I did it wasn't the same. I also felt less explosive, my start also slowed.
Whereas before in early 2012, in a relaxed manner, my legs would naturally just extend, and straighten out beautifully with ease, my strides looked very aesthetic too. Now the same amount of residual fatigue wouldn't affect me imo because i didn't have residual fatigue. I think I can tell when my nervous system feels healthy - usually i have very high desire to lift to workout.
If I train a movement regularly, my nervous system wants to do that movement... like squats. If I stop doing squats and sprint a lot, when i'm recovered I want to sprint, and not squat, I believe this has something to do with the way motor patterns connect with the nervous system but I haven't seen any research on it. If I do more pullups more often, weighted pullups, when I'm recovered I have a strong desire to do weighted pullups. It's almost an addiction, it's as if the Ca++ channels after being depressed for a little bit while the muscles recover start to open up as strong as before in the muscles specific for that movement. This is another hypothesis of mine that has developed as well...