Adarq.org
Performance Area => Article & Video Discussion => Topic started by: adarqui on March 16, 2011, 03:53:24 am
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http://tinyurl.com/4ph67ls
good article, check the part about dobbs.
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.pdf]http://www.strengthcoach.com/The_Importance_of_Load_Vector_inPhysique_Enhancement_and_Sport_Training[1].pdf (http://www.strengthcoach.com/The_Importance_of_Load_Vector_inPhysique_Enhancement_and_Sport_Training[1)
Here's the proper link.
Adarq are you subscribed to strengthcoach.com?
edit: seems like the [ ] mess with the [url]
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fixed, wow that was fail, tinyurl to the rescue.. hah
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(http://deansomerset.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/bret-contreras.jpg)
Listening to a guy who looks like Tim Legler with a beard?? smh
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fixed, wow that was fail, tinyurl to the rescue.. hah
i thought about that... but i was too lazy :D
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fixed, wow that was fail, tinyurl to the rescue.. hah
i thought about that... but i was too lazy :D
lies :D
:)
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can i ask exactly what a quadruped hip extension is?
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can i ask exactly what a quadruped hip extension is?
sounds funny doesn't it, stuff like this, quite a few variations:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FCsOZhZ5aE
but that's the gist of it.
pC
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What's the beef with this article?, apart from the guy having a beard.
This is beard baybe.
(http://www.salient.org.nz/resources/uploads/2008/03/joel-1.jpg)
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wat you mean what's the beef?
i'm still surprised no one has pasted the kenny dobbs excerpts from the article.. finally a "TFB level dunker" is measured, and no one cares.. lmao
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wat you mean what's the beef?
i'm still surprised no one has pasted the kenny dobbs excerpts from the article.. finally a "TFB level dunker" is measured, and no one cares.. lmao
actually, i read this article today and noticed the kenny dobbs excerpt. I was really surprised when he said majority of his hops are being contributed by his quads and calves.... and that he has glute and hamstring development of a "fetal pig"... i mean, i have dedicated the past two and a half years of my life to increase the power output of my glutes and hamstrings and completely ignoring my calves and now i read this... i dont know what to think.... i really am confused as fuck as what to focus on. kellyb said "no glutes = no results".. and ive been going on that as well as joedefrancos methods, rippetoe... etc...
i am still to this day trying to make the glutes and hamstrings my prime movers, and while my glutes are much better developed now, i still dont feel them doing anywhere as much work as my quads in a bilateral jump.
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wat you mean what's the beef?
i'm still surprised no one has pasted the kenny dobbs excerpts from the article.. finally a "TFB level dunker" is measured, and no one cares.. lmao
lol.
Listening to a guy who looks like Tim Legler with a beard??
(http://www.americanspectator.biz/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/wheresdbeef.jpg)
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wat you mean what's the beef?
i'm still surprised no one has pasted the kenny dobbs excerpts from the article.. finally a "TFB level dunker" is measured, and no one cares.. lmao
actually, i read this article today and noticed the kenny dobbs excerpt. I was really surprised when he said majority of his hops are being contributed by his quads and calves.... and that he has glute and hamstring development of a "fetal pig"... i mean, i have dedicated the past two and a half years of my life to increase the power output of my glutes and hamstrings and completely ignoring my calves and now i read this... i dont know what to think.... i really am confused as fuck as what to focus on. kellyb said "no glutes = no results".. and ive been going on that as well as joedefrancos methods, rippetoe... etc...
i am still to this day trying to make the glutes and hamstrings my prime movers, and while my glutes are much better developed now, i still dont feel them doing anywhere as much work as my quads in a bilateral jump.
nothing wrong with getting the hams/glutes very strong, but there is something wrong with this: "i am still to this day trying to make the glutes and hamstrings my prime movers,"
that's the ideology that has JACKED UP vert training.. vertical displacement is majority quad, calves are insanely important.. like i always say, quad/glute/calve.. so yea you want to get strong in half squat, which will have more transfer to vertical jump, but trying to change how you are supposed to jump will wreck your gains.. a more quad dominant squat will yield to better gains in vert than a "sit way back rippetoe squat" imo.
bottom line, quads are the most important aspect of vertical displacement, and calves are INSANELY important, especially direct calve training.
i have hamstrings of a fetal pig, but my glutes are pretty strong/solid now.. though they aren't huge or anything..
quadNation 4 life. ;F
pC
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good points..but people that are concerned with more than just DLRVJ and VJ (sports sprinting whatever) should not just jump on the quad nation gravy train IMO
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good points..but people that are concerned with more than just DLRVJ and VJ (sports sprinting whatever) should not just jump on the quad nation gravy train IMO
yeah and as long as you read the article you'd know that
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My quads and glutes are HUGEEE to my non-existant hamstrings. Like they just swallow my hammies. But as my squat to bodyweight ratio goes up, my vert always went up with it. I don't even know if there's any of a benefit to directly train my hamstrings. I'd rather save the energy for an extra set of squats.
But what about my calves? They are pretty small as well. I don't know if it's worth directly training that either, but since it barely causes any detriment to my squatting performance, I think I'll start adding in heavy calf raises anyway.
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although i am in support of quadnation/ quad mutant city, I would like to say that we should focus on all the muscles and keep them in balance because if you dont, it could lead to injury. for example, a good bench presser knows that having a strong upper back will help him bench, but the back will not actively left up the weight, it is just there to have a good base to push off of. a good quote is when greg valentino (biggest arms in the world) said "give your bodyparts equal love, dont train your biceps more than your rear delts cause biceps are cool but rear delts arent."
Kelly Baggett said strengths tend to remain strengths and weaknesses tend to remain weaknesses. so doing nothing but attacking your weaknesses is not a good game plan. you want to put in some work to help iron out those weaknesses, while still actively working on your strengths. If you are quad dominant, like i am, it is probable you will always be quad dominant and so you should progress in that fashion while still improving on your weaker posterior chain as well.
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good points..but people that are concerned with more than just DLRVJ and VJ (sports sprinting whatever) should not just jump on the quad nation gravy train IMO
right, train hamstrings, squat athletically with more transfer to vert, which is also more transfer to sprinting, because squatting correlates with accel and coming out of blocks/stance etc.. alot more quad involvement initially.. for top speed sprinting, in the weight room, it comes down to ghr's, reverse hypers, calf raises, 45deg back ext using glutes to extend, etc.. squat doesn't really "factor in" there, imo, in terms of specificity.. of course it helps generally, but the other exercises i mentioned will get you pull running with more power.
peace
that being said, accel is extremely important in most sports, more so than max-V if you look at it sport by sport, high percentage of sports relying more on short quick burst.. so..
quadNation4lyfe.
:F
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I really enjoyed the article but it seemed to get pretty crap reception on the CF forum.
http://www.charliefrancis.com/community/showthread.php?45700-Bret-Contreras-The-Importance-of-Load-Vector-in-Sprinting-Enhancement.
I agreed with all the stuff on muscle involvement in vj and sprints etc but after using heavy hip thrusts for a month or so in as a substitute for deadlifts I would never replace axial loading stuff with anteroposterior exercises, even for sprinting. They certainly make good accessory/activation tools though.
Any thoughts on the validity of his research? Always thought he was a pretty decent read so its kinda strange seeing everyone dismiss the article.
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I quite like Bret Contreras, he has put some really good stuff out.
Original Link: http://bretcontreras.com/articles-and-links/
The: Inside the Muscles - Best Ab Exercises was an eye opener, for me anyway.
I agreed with all the stuff on muscle involvement in vj and sprints etc but after using heavy hip thrusts for a month or so in as a substitute for deadlifts I would never replace axial loading stuff with anteroposterior exercises, even for sprinting. They certainly make good accessory/activation tools though.
I don't really agree with his %'s according to sprints, personally.
I would estimate that for most individuals around 30% of the locomotive propulsion in top speed sprinting comes from the glutei maximi, followed by 15% hamstring contribution, 15% adductor contribution, 15% contralateral latissimus dorsi contribution, 10% quadriceps contribution, 10% calf/soleus contribution, and 5% contribution from other muscles such as the rhomboids and mid traps.
That is 100%.
Now handcuff a sprinter & run with just the glutes, hams, quads, calf's etc.
There are so many fast sprinters I have researched on that did no weight training at all for developing those muscle groups. Some of the Japanese/Asian sprinters were absolutely blazin', many of them very slight bodytype. Some of the best starts I have ever seen came from those guys, very little BW/inertia to overcome.
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I quite like Bret Contreras, he has put some really good stuff out.
Original Link: http://bretcontreras.com/articles-and-links/
The: Inside the Muscles - Best Ab Exercises was an eye opener, for me anyway.
I agreed with all the stuff on muscle involvement in vj and sprints etc but after using heavy hip thrusts for a month or so in as a substitute for deadlifts I would never replace axial loading stuff with anteroposterior exercises, even for sprinting. They certainly make good accessory/activation tools though.
I don't really agree with his %'s according to sprints, personally.
I would estimate that for most individuals around 30% of the locomotive propulsion in top speed sprinting comes from the glutei maximi, followed by 15% hamstring contribution, 15% adductor contribution, 15% contralateral latissimus dorsi contribution, 10% quadriceps contribution, 10% calf/soleus contribution, and 5% contribution from other muscles such as the rhomboids and mid traps.
That is 100%.
Now handcuff a sprinter & run with just the glutes, hams, quads, calf's etc.
There are so many fast sprinters I have researched on that did no weight training at all for developing those muscle groups. Some of the Japanese/Asian sprinters were absolutely blazin', many of them very slight bodytype. Some of the best starts I have ever seen came from those guys, very little BW/inertia to overcome.
That doesn't necessarily mean the upper body has a huge force contribution, just that it's necessary for balance.
Stocky looking elite sprinters are INCREDIBLY strong:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9TG3hpUkA8&feature=related
Skinny looking elite sprinters are still very strong. Just because they look skinny doesn't mean they're weak. Jonathan Edwards was still powercleaning 150kg at 72kg 183cm.
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I wonder what was his squat and half squat. I think it was more of a back problem than leg strength at that point... same question for Sotomayor :D
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Skinny looking elite sprinters are still very strong. Just because they look skinny doesn't mean they're weak. Jonathan Edwards was still powercleaning 150kg at 72kg 183cm.
In which department are skinny sprinters strong?.
The best example being Carl Lewis, who didn't lift until the backend of his career?.
Stocky looking elite sprinters are INCREDIBLY strong: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9TG3hpUkA8&feature=related
Harry Aikines can power clean 170kg's more than Carl Lewis but still FAR slower on the track.
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Skinny looking elite sprinters are still very strong. Just because they look skinny doesn't mean they're weak. Jonathan Edwards was still powercleaning 150kg at 72kg 183cm.
In which department are skinny sprinters strong?.
The best example being Carl Lewis, who didn't lift until the backend of his career?.
Stocky looking elite sprinters are INCREDIBLY strong: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9TG3hpUkA8&feature=related
Harry Aikines can power clean 170kg's more than Carl Lewis but still FAR slower on the track.
You keep confusing weight room strong with real world strong. Every elite sprinter is strong; otherwise, they wouldn't take steroids.
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I read Brets' book and while I applaud him for attempting to take a scientific approach to his research about glute involvement I am pretty sure that most of his EEG research was conducted on a sample size of 1 - Bret Contreras. Now obviously Bret has written a book about glute involvement in athletic movements, in particular sprinting, and this may have meant some bias in the either the way he performed the exercises or the way he interpreted the results.
I am not discounting his work at all by the way, I am just saying it needs further study with a broader range of subjects before I would abandon deads etc in favor of heavy glute bridges or whatever he calls them.
in my own training programs I find them good as a warm up to squats and deadlifts but not as a replacement.
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I quite like Bret Contreras, he has put some really good stuff out.
Original Link: http://bretcontreras.com/articles-and-links/
The: Inside the Muscles - Best Ab Exercises was an eye opener, for me anyway.
I agreed with all the stuff on muscle involvement in vj and sprints etc but after using heavy hip thrusts for a month or so in as a substitute for deadlifts I would never replace axial loading stuff with anteroposterior exercises, even for sprinting. They certainly make good accessory/activation tools though.
I don't really agree with his %'s according to sprints, personally.
I would estimate that for most individuals around 30% of the locomotive propulsion in top speed sprinting comes from the glutei maximi, followed by 15% hamstring contribution, 15% adductor contribution, 15% contralateral latissimus dorsi contribution, 10% quadriceps contribution, 10% calf/soleus contribution, and 5% contribution from other muscles such as the rhomboids and mid traps.
That is 100%.
Now handcuff a sprinter & run with just the glutes, hams, quads, calf's etc.
those analogies are bad..
Now chop a sprinter's dick off & run..
Now remove the hands from a sprinter & run..
Now try and jump just using your ankles...
same shit, bad analogies.
There are so many fast sprinters I have researched on that did no weight training at all for developing those muscle groups. Some of the Japanese/Asian sprinters were absolutely blazin', many of them very slight bodytype. Some of the best starts I have ever seen came from those guys, very little BW/inertia to overcome.
genetics.. they are all strong.. you can't produce alot of force relative to your BW and be weak..
if someone jumps 45+ inches and never weight trains, genetics, but, this person is EXTREMELY STRONG..
if someone runs 10.x 100m's or lower and never weight trains, genetics, but this person is EXTREMELY STRONG..
if you get those people to care about lifting, and push themselves, they will make some very impressive gains VERY QUICKLY, and eventually put up great numbers on a variety of lifts.. the strength is there, learning & being willing to apply it to a barbell is an entirely different issue.
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those analogies are bad..
Now chop a sprinter's dick off & run..
Now remove the hands from a sprinter & run..
same shit, bad analogies.
The arms, upperbody & torso play a far greater role in sprint speed than a sprinters dick & hands alone.
Anyway, point being made, the estimation that 95% of ALL sprint speed locomotion is dedicated entirely to the lowerbody just isn't true, hence the handcuff. You can't run to your full potential when you disable the entire upperbody.
The faster you move your arms fr example, the faster the legs should follow.
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I read Brets' book and while I applaud him for attempting to take a scientific approach to his research about glute involvement I am pretty sure that most of his EEG research was conducted on a sample size of 1 - Bret Contreras. Now obviously Bret has written a book about glute involvement in athletic movements, in particular sprinting, and this may have meant some bias in the either the way he performed the exercises or the way he interpreted the results.
I am not discounting his work at all by the way, I am just saying it needs further study with a broader range of subjects before I would abandon deads etc in favor of heavy glute bridges or whatever he calls them.
in my own training programs I find them good as a warm up to squats and deadlifts but not as a replacement.
The second biggest mistake is that they fail to perform the best glute exercises. Squats will work the glutes in the stretched position, deadlifts will work the mid-range position, and hip thrusts will work the contracted position. You need all three for optimal glute development, plus some abduction and external rotation work to hit the upper glute maximus and glute medius.
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those analogies are bad..
Now chop a sprinter's dick off & run..
Now remove the hands from a sprinter & run..
same shit, bad analogies.
The arms, upperbody & torso play a far greater role in sprint speed than a sprinters dick & hands alone.
Anyway, point being made, the estimation that 95% of ALL sprint speed locomotion is dedicated entirely to the lowerbody just isn't true, hence the handcuff. You can't run to your full potential when you disable the entire upperbody.
The faster you move your arms fr example, the faster the legs should follow.
genetics.. they are all strong.. you can't produce alot of force relative to your BW and be weak..
if someone jumps 45+ inches and never weight trains, genetics, but, this person is EXTREMELY STRONG..
if someone runs 10.x 100m's or lower and never weight trains, genetics, but this person is EXTREMELY STRONG.
I would only regard World class powerlifters, strongmen, Oly lifters & a few bodybuilders as EXTREMELY STRONG.
How do you workout that someone who jumps 45+ inches or runs 10.x 100m's is EXTREMELY STRONG?.
Carl Lewis & Kim Collins can run sub 10.
Where are they strong?, muscles? exercises?.
their hamstrings, glutes, quads, calves, and hip flexors are INSANELY strong, likely much stronger than elite lifters in a relative sense. Your using ONLY strength exercises, which have both a leverage component (the levers that make the sprinters great at sprinting are the levers that make them bad at displaying that strength in the lifts) and a skill component, AT PERFORMING THOSE LIFTS. You cant compare "strength" by only using that analogy. Elite sprinters have some insane glute and hamstring strength, test them on a natural ghr against a powerlifter, see what happens.
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those analogies are bad..
Now chop a sprinter's dick off & run..
Now remove the hands from a sprinter & run..
same shit, bad analogies.
The arms, upperbody & torso play a far greater role in sprint speed than a sprinters dick & hands alone.
Point being, the estimation that 100% sprint speed is dedicated to the entire lowerbody is not true, hence the handcuff. You can't run to your full potential when you disable the entire upperbody.
genetics.. they are all strong.. you can't produce alot of force relative to your BW and be weak..
if someone jumps 45+ inches and never weight trains, genetics, but, this person is EXTREMELY STRONG..
if someone runs 10.x 100m's or lower and never weight trains, genetics, but this person is EXTREMELY STRONG.
I would only regard World class powerlifters, strongmen, Oly lifters & a few bodybuilders as EXTREMELY STRONG.
How do you workout that someone who jumps 45+ inches or runs 10.x 100m's is EXTREMELY STRONG?.
Yes, there stronger than the average but I wouldn't say there extremely strong.
You just don't get it. I've explained it to you so many times, but you just don't.
Weight room strength does not equal real world strength.
You get stronger in the weight room to improve real world strength but there's neural adaptations that allow you to lift more weight. You get these by lifting more often. That doesn't mean you're stronger in the real world. Somebody who rarely lifts can still be extremely strong, they just display it in other ways besides weight lifting. Get your average genetic freak lifting and in a year or 2 they are going to put up ridiculous numbers. Does that mean they got stronger? Not necessarily.
Since you like to use weight lifters as examples. Powerlifters are generally stronger than olympic lifters. Olympic lifters can probably front squat and power clean more. Does this make them stronger? No. it means they got good at front squatting and power cleaning more through years of practice.
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OK! Good points made by both.
I agree, weight room strength doesn't necessarily relate to real world strength, if much at all.
Neural adaptations are key?.
Since you like to use weight lifters as examples. Powerlifters are generally stronger than olympic lifters. Olympic lifters can probably front squat and power clean more. Does this make them stronger? No. it means they got good at front squatting and power cleaning more through years of practice.
More through years of practice or just steroid usage JC?. :D
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the strength is there, learning & being willing to apply it to a barbell is an entirely different issue
What if it's reverse. The strength is there, learning and being willing to apply it TO THE FIELD is an entirely different issue (think CoolColJ).
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What if it's reverse. The strength is there, learning and being willing to apply it TO THE FIELD is an entirely different issue (think CoolColJ).
Game Speed GSTS. Vern Gambetta.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5gA0_VQFvo
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Since you like to use weight lifters as examples. Powerlifters are generally stronger than olympic lifters. Olympic lifters can probably front squat and power clean more. Does this make them stronger? No. it means they got good at front squatting and power cleaning more through years of practice.
The idea that they're not as strong as other strength athletes is complete bollocks. Shane Hamman holds the all time IPF squat record at 457.5kg and he admitted he didn't have the squat strength guys like Rezazadeh did. WPC/WPO squats are completely incomparable to an oly squat (or even an IPF squat really) with the huge amount of assistive gear which also allows a really wide stance.
Not having to bench gives the weightlifter a huge advantage when it comes to developing total body strength, not to mention they don't need to carry as much upper body mass. That's not to say that weightlifters have a weak upper body though. The Chinese 69-85kg guys are push-pressing ~140kg for 8-10reps as assistance work. Chigishev benched 225kg raw easily and bare in mind the raw non drug tested world benchpress record is 715lbs. 1000lb benches are purely a product of triple ply shirts. Even the skinner looking oly lifters like Syzmon Kolecki (6'2 94kg) are benching 180kg. The little Chinese fellas are push-pressing ~140kg for 8-10 rep assistance work.
Weightlifters aren't magic. You can't clean and jerk 200kg without your entire body being brutally fucking strong no matter how good your technique is.
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Whoever is stronger is up for interpretation. It's a broad term. Probably should have said it differently, but I think it helped my point get across.
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Whoever is stronger is up for interpretation. It's a broad term. Probably should have said it differently, but I think it helped my point get across.
Yeah. However, I would disagree with the idea that the basic neuromuscular adaptations to lifting don't carry over to real world strength and athletic performance though. They definitely do, along with the increases in work capacity in each training session and recovery between sessions and ability to tolerate a higher frequency of training.
The more focused your training is, the more specifically the body will adapt. Athletes, beyond the beginner stage, should definitely be working with both volume and intensity in a good variety of exercises, and ALWAYS make sure that progress in their actual even takes priority over the plates on the bar. No point focusing on lifting more and just getting better at lifting.