Author Topic: Weight loss for people with excuses and without common sense  (Read 19364 times)

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TheSituation

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Re: Weight loss for people with excuses and without common sense
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2011, 10:18:25 pm »
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It's a shame this thread disintegrated so quickly without any substantial debate.  It had potential to be interesting.

There's not much to debate
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[7:31pm] adarq: ripp, being honest, it's hard for u to beat jcsbck, he's on fire lately
[7:31pm] adarq: he's just
[7:31pm] adarq: wrecking people
[7:31pm] adarq: daily




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tychver

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Re: Weight loss for people with excuses and without common sense
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2011, 11:00:59 pm »
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It's a shame this thread disintegrated so quickly without any substantial debate.  It had potential to be interesting.

There's not much to debate

Bullshit. Human metabolism is still extremely poorly understood even after 70 years of research.

TheSituation

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Re: Weight loss for people with excuses and without common sense
« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2011, 02:11:28 am »
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It's a shame this thread disintegrated so quickly without any substantial debate.  It had potential to be interesting.

There's not much to debate

Bullshit. Human metabolism is still extremely poorly understood even after 70 years of research.

Explain what is poorly understood about it. I bet you state some facts. Facts cannot be debated, so therefore, there is not much to debate. You can't debate something that is either right or wrong. There is no opinion.


« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 11:05:17 pm by JC »
I don't lift for girls, I lift for guys on the internet



[7:31pm] adarq: ripp, being honest, it's hard for u to beat jcsbck, he's on fire lately
[7:31pm] adarq: he's just
[7:31pm] adarq: wrecking people
[7:31pm] adarq: daily




Say NO to Maroko

And also NO to anyone who associates with him. No Taylor Allan. No Adam Scammenauger. No Kelly Baggett. No Elliot Hulse. No Jtrinsey. NO JUMP USA


Don't PM me asking me training questions. I'm here for the lulz. If you want help, post on the forums and get help from all the members, maybe even me.

TKXII

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Re: Weight loss for people with excuses and without common sense
« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2011, 11:45:46 am »
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Lastly, on sugar and fat, it may not make you WEIGH more than an equivalent amount of protein in calories, but we're talking about fat distribution, a far more relevant measure. Americans aren't fat because they eat till satisfaction, rather it's the sugar + PUFAs in all processed foods, + follwing your instincts. People lose weight from eating clean and not exercising and eating to satisfaction all the fucking time.

 Low fat diets have helped reverse diabetes, and so have low carb. Both prevent sugar from being in the bloodstream for too long. The sugar releases insulin, insulin can store the fat as fat, as well as the excess sugar. That's pretty simple actually so I have no idea how you thought I was retarded for saying that. Oh yes I do, because you're an emotional little pussy who'd get knocked in a real fight because he's too caught up in his emoticons. Peace!

I said I wouldn't respond but I have to. Post a picture of yourself Mr. 9% bodyfat.

Americans WEIGH more than people from other countries. Since you agreed that fat and sugar doesn't make you weigh more, you cannot say Americans WEIGH more because they eat fat/sugar/processed food. Americans WEIGH more because they eat too much.

How do low fat diets prevent sugar from being in the bloodstream? Fat is the one macro that doesn't convert to glucose (for the most part), unlike protein and carbs.

The "bro science" here is that you think processed food makes you fat, which has been proven false over and over again.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/index.html

Explain that one faggot. And I'm not sure  where this real fight stuff is coming from. Calm down faggot. You're the one who won't post a picture of yourself on here.

Since it almost seems like you would like to learn, I'll try to post real facts here. Now about a picture of my abs, I certainly have decent abs, but I'm more interested in educating and promoting my ideas, than I am in being right. So even if I had 6%bf, which I've tried to achieve for a while but then stopped, I don't think I'd do it, because the point is that my bodyfat doesn't reflect what works for the general population. A scientific study involving many participants is more likely to. I could post a picture for kicks but it's not that useful.

I take back what I said about weight and am arguing that Americans weigh more mostly because of stress, which is the real cause of eating more calories, especially t[http://www.foodaddictionsummit.org/documents/StressEatingandtheRewardSystem.pdf]hose of sugar and food with higher reward.[/http://www.foodaddictionsummit.org/documents/StressEatingandtheRewardSystem.pdf].

Restricting calories but not restricting stress will only temporarily fix the problem. One level above the surface, I could argue it's just excess fat and sugar, or insulin as Taubes says. The insulin theory is definitely a good one, that chronically high blood sugar is what causes metabolic syndrome. Stress, high fat diets, and high sugar diets all cause high blood sugar. Recent studies have shown that meditation and deep breathing reduce blood sugar [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18386551]here[/http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18386551] and [http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/full/10.1089/acm.2010.0666]here[/http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/full/10.1089/acm.2010.0666]


Stephan Guyenet of wholehealthsource.blogspot.com has been intrigued recently by the food reward hypothesis of obesity. In this post he shows how diets with less reward can promote weight loss. The first one incldes a reference to a study on a l[http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/05/food-reward-dominant-factor-in-obesity_18.html]ow fat diet not restricted in calories leading to weight loss.[/http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/05/food-reward-dominant-factor-in-obesity_18.html]

The twinkie diet may not be broscience, but it's another type, stupid science. Unintelligent science tends to study one variable, and look at things as a duality; either you lose weight or you don't, therefore you succeed and you're right, or you fail and you're wrong. Let me break down my thinking on the twinkie diet:

1. The researcher was interested in proving that calories are the only thing that mattered for weight loss, so he restricted his calories and lost weight.
2. So what the fucking shit is weight loss? Fat, muscle, parasites, bacteria, toxins, water, glycogen, snot? It's more than just fat and muscle.
3. Why didn't he study the effect of a high calorie diet on weight gain, the contrary? maybe he should have binged on twinkies to prove that excess calories = weight gain. Oh but wait, there does seem to be a way to eat excess calories and not get fat... I mean the japanese eat more than we do, ad are slimmer, and I will describe research below that will prove this and I just mentioned the low fat diet above.
4. Forget "weight loss." How about fat loss? No fuck that, how about your overall health? What were his testosterone levels/libido like? How was his mental acuity? How was his digestion? Is this something that could be continued in the long term?
5. Did he look good after he finished the diet? NO NOT REALLY SO IT FAILED.
End of discussion on my part. THe twinkie diet appeals to simple minds who view things in a duality, weight loss, or not weight loss. THere's much more important things in the body than simply weight lost on a scale.

 A diet consisting of grass-fed beef, lamb, or other red meat, fruits and vegetables, dark leafy greens, seaweeds, sprouts, and other healthy foods you can think of, increase your metabolism more than a diet consisting of oreos, twinkies, donuts, english  muffins, white bread, sugar, and muffins, and take out chinese. So what matters is not just calories, but the post-digestion effect here, thermic effects of not just digestion, but thermic effects of constituents in food, and how those constituents activate proteins and enzymes that burn fat or increase metabolism. I'll start slow with the research since i'm doing a bunch of other research right now, but here is a well studied way to lose weight while eating a ton of calories.

Again [http://donmatesz.blogspot.com/2011/06/fat-balance-versus-energy-balance.html]here[/http://donmatesz.blogspot.com/2011/06/fat-balance-versus-energy-balance.html] we see a few examples where it is possible to eat a lot and lose weight. The easiest way is a high carb low fat low protein diet. Low protein activates AMPk, which burns fat. Since you all like Lyle McDonald, her[http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/ampk-master-metabolic-regulator.html]e is his article on that. [/http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/ampk-master-metabolic-regulator.html]


Few quotes from thefirst link in above paragraph. "Subjects overfed a low-protein, high-carbohydrate diet consistently gained less weight than predicted by the increased kcaloric intake; in fact, some subjects on low protein diets lost weight despite consuming an excess of 8-10,000 kcal in a week. "

So what this proves is that it's not calories in minus calories out. The hypothesis is that macronutrient balance is regulated in the body, not just overall energy balance. The raw food diet is another great example; many have lost upwards of 100 lbs from jus eating fruit vegetables, and a small amount of nuts/seeds. It's a low protein high carb diet, but can be high in calories too. Not good for gaining muscle, possible to gain strength from stronger collagen links in joints/tendons. But bone mass will be lost most probs.

So back to Americans. Most americans aren't on the high carb low protein diet I described, but you can't argue anymore it's excess calories, because then in any situation where there is excess calories, one would gain weight. False. I think we actually need to define excess calories in terms of metabolic regulators in the body such as mTOR and AMPk. If you activate AMPk from a low carb diet or a ketogenic or low protein diet, it could be possible to lose weight while eating a lot of calories, since those calories aren't telling the body, oh shit this is a lot of calories. When you eat meat, branched chain amino acids, and a lot of acrbs and fat, your body does sense higher calories.

So two things to end this post.
1. The body is not just detecting calories. It's detecting the type of calories, and this is evidenced by activation of AMPk or mTOR, and then leptin.

2. Stress is probably the root cause of everything everyone in the fitness/nutrition industry thinks causes weight gain.


Edit: messed up links.. not fixing them
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 04:08:08 pm by Avishek »
"Performance during stretch-shortening cycle exercise is influenced by the visco-elastic properties of the muscle-tendon units. During stretching of an activated muscle, mechanical energy is absorbed in the tendon structures (tendon and aponeurosis) and this energy can subsequently be re-utilized if shortening of the muscle immediately follows the stretching. According to Biscotti (2000), 72% of the elastic energy restitution action comes from tendons, 28% - from contractile elements of muscles.

http://www.verkhoshansky.com/Portals/0/Presentations/Shock%20Method%20Plyometrics.pdf

DamienZ

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Re: Weight loss for people with excuses and without common sense
« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2011, 05:51:18 pm »
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it's still calories in - calories out ;)

Quote
A diet consisting of grass-fed beef, lamb, or other red meat, fruits and vegetables, dark leafy greens, seaweeds, sprouts, and other healthy foods you can think of, increase your metabolism more than a diet consisting of oreos, twinkies, donuts, english  muffins, white bread, sugar, and muffins, and take out chinese

If they both contain the same macronutrient ratio there will be no difference

tychver

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Re: Weight loss for people with excuses and without common sense
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2011, 06:19:57 pm »
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It's a shame this thread disintegrated so quickly without any substantial debate.  It had potential to be interesting.

There's not much to debate

Bullshit. Human metabolism is still extremely poorly understood even after 70 years of research.

Explain what is poorly understood about it. I bet you state some facts. Facts cannot be debated, so therefore, there is not much to debate. You can't debate something that is either right or wrong. There is no opinion.

Off the top of my head: gut flora and hormonal and gene expression responses.

Oh, and:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 06:25:22 pm by tychver »

Clarence

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Re: Weight loss for people with excuses and without common sense
« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2011, 06:44:11 pm »
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Explain what is poorly understood about it.

I read a lot of research (not just the abstract like it seems 99% of people do) and when you get to the discussion section they always mention that "further study is required" in some aspect.  Despite knowing more about human physiology than anytime in the history of the species, it is clear that there are still gaps in our knowledge base.

Facts cannot be debated, so therefore, there is not much to debate. You can't debate something that is either right or wrong. There is no opinion.

That would assume that all research results are in harmony.  Unfortunately, that's not the case.  Not to mention vast amounts of research that suffer from poor research design and/or interpretation that get accepted as fact.  The inherent biases by the researchers, the questions they pose, and how they interpret the results confounds the issue further.  Unfortunately, things are not as black and white as they may appear.


TheSituation

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Re: Weight loss for people with excuses and without common sense
« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2011, 06:54:53 pm »
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Quote

That would assume that all research results are in harmony.  Unfortunately, that's not the case.  Not to mention vast amounts of research that suffer from poor research design and/or interpretation that get accepted as fact.  The inherent biases by the researchers, the questions they pose, and how they interpret the results confounds the issue further.  Unfortunately, things are not as black and white as they may appear.


If things are still open for opinion/debate, you cannot say people poorly understand something. If someone was to poorly understand something, that is implying there is one right answer.
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[7:31pm] adarq: ripp, being honest, it's hard for u to beat jcsbck, he's on fire lately
[7:31pm] adarq: he's just
[7:31pm] adarq: wrecking people
[7:31pm] adarq: daily




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Clarence

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Re: Weight loss for people with excuses and without common sense
« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2011, 08:02:39 pm »
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Quote

That would assume that all research results are in harmony.  Unfortunately, that's not the case.  Not to mention vast amounts of research that suffer from poor research design and/or interpretation that get accepted as fact.  The inherent biases by the researchers, the questions they pose, and how they interpret the results confounds the issue further.  Unfortunately, things are not as black and white as they may appear.


If things are still open for opinion/debate, you cannot say people poorly understand something. If someone was to poorly understand something, that is implying there is one right answer.

I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing your logic here.  What are you trying to say?  That there are no gaps in our knowledge? Or that there is only one right answer?

TheSituation

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Re: Weight loss for people with excuses and without common sense
« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2011, 09:12:03 pm »
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Quote

That would assume that all research results are in harmony.  Unfortunately, that's not the case.  Not to mention vast amounts of research that suffer from poor research design and/or interpretation that get accepted as fact.  The inherent biases by the researchers, the questions they pose, and how they interpret the results confounds the issue further.  Unfortunately, things are not as black and white as they may appear.


If things are still open for opinion/debate, you cannot say people poorly understand something. If someone was to poorly understand something, that is implying there is one right answer.

I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing your logic here.  What are you trying to say?  That there are no gaps in our knowledge? Or that there is only one right answer?

There is only one right answer
I don't lift for girls, I lift for guys on the internet



[7:31pm] adarq: ripp, being honest, it's hard for u to beat jcsbck, he's on fire lately
[7:31pm] adarq: he's just
[7:31pm] adarq: wrecking people
[7:31pm] adarq: daily




Say NO to Maroko

And also NO to anyone who associates with him. No Taylor Allan. No Adam Scammenauger. No Kelly Baggett. No Elliot Hulse. No Jtrinsey. NO JUMP USA


Don't PM me asking me training questions. I'm here for the lulz. If you want help, post on the forums and get help from all the members, maybe even me.

Clarence

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Re: Weight loss for people with excuses and without common sense
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2011, 10:11:39 pm »
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Quote

That would assume that all research results are in harmony.  Unfortunately, that's not the case.  Not to mention vast amounts of research that suffer from poor research design and/or interpretation that get accepted as fact.  The inherent biases by the researchers, the questions they pose, and how they interpret the results confounds the issue further.  Unfortunately, things are not as black and white as they may appear.


If things are still open for opinion/debate, you cannot say people poorly understand something. If someone was to poorly understand something, that is implying there is one right answer.

I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing your logic here.  What are you trying to say?  That there are no gaps in our knowledge? Or that there is only one right answer?

There is only one right answer

Alright, then let's assume that's true.   

Do you believe that there is some research that conflicts other research?  Do you believe that there is some research that the results are inconclusive? Do you believe that there is research that is presented as fact despite having flawed designs or interpretations?  Do you believe there is some research that fails to demonstrate the desired outcome of the funding group, thus is never published?  Do you believe there is research that is passed as fact but has not been able to be reproduced with further studies?

If your answer to any of the above questions is yes, then clearly we do not know it all yet and there is room for some debate as we do not know with 100% certainty what exactly the 'only one right answer' is.

TheSituation

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Re: Weight loss for people with excuses and without common sense
« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2011, 10:51:49 pm »
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Quote

That would assume that all research results are in harmony.  Unfortunately, that's not the case.  Not to mention vast amounts of research that suffer from poor research design and/or interpretation that get accepted as fact.  The inherent biases by the researchers, the questions they pose, and how they interpret the results confounds the issue further.  Unfortunately, things are not as black and white as they may appear.


If things are still open for opinion/debate, you cannot say people poorly understand something. If someone was to poorly understand something, that is implying there is one right answer.

I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing your logic here.  What are you trying to say?  That there are no gaps in our knowledge? Or that there is only one right answer?

There is only one right answer

Alright, then let's assume that's true.  

Do you believe that there is some research that conflicts other research?  Do you believe that there is some research that the results are inconclusive? Do you believe that there is research that is presented as fact despite having flawed designs or interpretations?  Do you believe there is some research that fails to demonstrate the desired outcome of the funding group, thus is never published?  Do you believe there is research that is passed as fact but has not been able to be reproduced with further studies?

If your answer to any of the above questions is yes, then clearly we do not know it all yet and there is room for some debate as we do not know with 100% certainty what exactly the 'only one right answer' is.

If we assume it's true, there cannot be research that conflicts other research.

I for one think everything I said is true, and that there is no debate. Show me research that shows the contrary, which I don't think you can, and then we can agree that the topic can be debated, even though there is only one right answer, so it's not really a debate, as one guy is right and one guy is wrong, or both are wrong.



Now, if we look at the definition of debate as a noun/

noun
1.
a discussion, as of a public question in an assembly, involving opposing viewpoints: a debate in the Senate on farm price supports.


Debating on something factual cannot happen. That is like saying there can be a debate between someone who says the sky is blue, and another guy who says the sky is yellow.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 11:05:33 pm by JC »
I don't lift for girls, I lift for guys on the internet



[7:31pm] adarq: ripp, being honest, it's hard for u to beat jcsbck, he's on fire lately
[7:31pm] adarq: he's just
[7:31pm] adarq: wrecking people
[7:31pm] adarq: daily




Say NO to Maroko

And also NO to anyone who associates with him. No Taylor Allan. No Adam Scammenauger. No Kelly Baggett. No Elliot Hulse. No Jtrinsey. NO JUMP USA


Don't PM me asking me training questions. I'm here for the lulz. If you want help, post on the forums and get help from all the members, maybe even me.

TKXII

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Re: Weight loss for people with excuses and without common sense
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2011, 11:05:28 pm »
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Lol. Yeah this stuff is complicated not everyone will get it, and JC does not have the mental capacity to engage in intellectual debate. I'm a researcher, you're not.

Somebody mentioned gut microbes. Yes people with diabetes tend to have a different gut microbiome. Sounds crazy right? Hormones, well established. Look up CHarles Poliquins biosignature method.

How about being grounded? We do not maintain direct contact with the earth anymore and are walking around with positive charges. Very interested association between shoe sales and diabetes prevalence in this video. Crazy? Just as crazy as reducing everything to calories.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OclGGH0EKhc&feature=feedf


And to really burst the calorie bubble, it can be argued that calories don't even measure energy in the body at all. Why would the amount of energy it takes to raise 1g of water 1degree or w/e it is be equivalent to metabolic processes? THe fat oyu ingest doesn't just burn off or store as fat. ATP is used to synthesize things like hormones, prostaglandins. Metabolism is so complicated that no one really gets it.

http://scottabel.blogspot.com/2011/03/calories-myth.html  - this article just rapes the calories in - out notion, and this guy is a crayz bodybuilder. Look at his abs. I guess this discussion is over.
"Performance during stretch-shortening cycle exercise is influenced by the visco-elastic properties of the muscle-tendon units. During stretching of an activated muscle, mechanical energy is absorbed in the tendon structures (tendon and aponeurosis) and this energy can subsequently be re-utilized if shortening of the muscle immediately follows the stretching. According to Biscotti (2000), 72% of the elastic energy restitution action comes from tendons, 28% - from contractile elements of muscles.

http://www.verkhoshansky.com/Portals/0/Presentations/Shock%20Method%20Plyometrics.pdf

TKXII

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Re: Weight loss for people with excuses and without common sense
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2011, 11:09:20 pm »
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Also about the philosophical stuff, simple minds think there isa duality as I mentioned earlier. True false, right wrong. Well I'm confident that this is never true.

Often times both sides are right in some ways, wrong in other ways. THerefore it's foolish to believe that something in a soft science such as nutritional science is ever true. In math and physics, things can actually be proven for certain, especially math. In nutritional science it's not possible to prove anything whatsoever because it is not possible to track all the variables in metabolism in one study. We can only study a few things at a time and hope there are no confounding variables.

Therefore, the best approach for a researcher is to realize he knows nothing, and nobody else does either. FOr practicality purposes, we can assume that certain things are more likely to be true knowledge so should be given as health advice. But that's it.
"Performance during stretch-shortening cycle exercise is influenced by the visco-elastic properties of the muscle-tendon units. During stretching of an activated muscle, mechanical energy is absorbed in the tendon structures (tendon and aponeurosis) and this energy can subsequently be re-utilized if shortening of the muscle immediately follows the stretching. According to Biscotti (2000), 72% of the elastic energy restitution action comes from tendons, 28% - from contractile elements of muscles.

http://www.verkhoshansky.com/Portals/0/Presentations/Shock%20Method%20Plyometrics.pdf

TheSituation

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Re: Weight loss for people with excuses and without common sense
« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2011, 01:20:33 am »
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You're missing the point. You posted a link to some guy rambling about what he thinks are facts. Since he believes they are facts, you cannot debate with him.

I don't lift for girls, I lift for guys on the internet



[7:31pm] adarq: ripp, being honest, it's hard for u to beat jcsbck, he's on fire lately
[7:31pm] adarq: he's just
[7:31pm] adarq: wrecking people
[7:31pm] adarq: daily




Say NO to Maroko

And also NO to anyone who associates with him. No Taylor Allan. No Adam Scammenauger. No Kelly Baggett. No Elliot Hulse. No Jtrinsey. NO JUMP USA


Don't PM me asking me training questions. I'm here for the lulz. If you want help, post on the forums and get help from all the members, maybe even me.