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Performance Area => Article & Video Discussion => Topic started by: PointerRyan on February 01, 2012, 05:09:32 am
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hey peolpe just wanted to hear your thoughts on this, and also gotta question. :
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FIH/is_6_68/ai_n18608344/?tag=content;col1
For those who can't be bothered reading, basically, it's about how giving an alternate to barbell qsuat would do an athlete a favor . Something that caught my attention is about the vertical compression on the spine during barbell squat, and that is why It is not just by chance that most successful lifters are short.
but then, i remember reading this arrticle about whether does weights stunt growth, and this i s part of the post:
"If weight lifting doesn’t stunt growth, why do so many people believe that it does?
Many people confuse cause with effect.
The best weight lifters and bodybuilders are generally short. It is easier to lift a heavy weight over your head if you are short, because you don’t need to raise the weight as far off the ground. Bodybuilders, who may weigh 220 pounds (100 kg) or more, are usually also short, simply because it is difficult for taller men to eat the massive amounts of food required to fuel a proportionate amount of muscle growth to that of a shorter man with smaller muscles overall.
Since the very best weight lifters and bodybuilders are short, many people jump to the mistaken conclusion that weight lifting is responsible for stature, instead of concluding that stature is responsible for success in weight lifting.
Additionally, before modern medical treatments were developed, if an unusually-strong child survived a growth-plate fracture, he often remained crippled for life. It is easy to blame the child’s strength for the injury, rather than the accident which injured him."
reference: http://skinnybulkup.com/does-weight-lifting-stunt-growth/
see, while best weight lifters maybe generally short ,it is easier to lift if you're short compared to tall people.
the problem is both post makes some sense, but doesn't work together.
A passage from the latter link:
" If an adult with fully ossified bones – bones which are not growing longer – suffers an unfortunate accident, it may put a joint under enough stress to cause ligament damage. When an adolescent is involved in the same sort of accident, and his bone’s growth plate is weaker than his ligaments, he often ends up with a growth plate fracture rather than a ligament tear."
See, if you get my point here, although the latter link says that weight lifters are short due to them being able to lift more weight, yet, part of the post agrees that if the growth plates are weaker than ligaments, chances are the growth plate wil get injured.
Now that's my concern. If it's okay that someone in high school, maybe 14/15 years old onwards, starts squatting, chances are that their growth plate are not developed fully, and if they would to suffer any injury, the ligaments might not be strong enough to take the damage.
So if so, how can squatting not stunt one's growth even if they're 14/15? Of course, if the proper technique is done, the lifter won't get injured and no damage would be done to the growth plates or even ligaments.
But in my case, I've this tailbone issue, where i feel the tension in my lower back, at the tailbone , after exercises like squats.
my L2 of the lumbar is weak, and had a hairline fracture in my lower back before.
I've increased my squats from 50+kilos to about 70kilos now. There was a week where i did bad form and really felt my tailbone, durable, lasts about 10secondsbut not something minor
My most recent workout however, wasn't too bad, but even so tension would still be felt there, also durable, lasts about 10 seconds too, but the tension was much less.
QUESTION
Here's my concern. based on the previous checkup last year, i had a hairline fracture, my L2 was weak and i was not flexible. the kind of tension/pain/uncomfortable felling i felt then is the kind of tension i still feel now. Of course, i'm much stronger now and the tension is happening less, but still happens. The problem is, i could definitely use a weight where i won't feel anything, but then, at that rate, the progress will be really static and i might as well not workout at all.
So either ways, although the doctor said my growth plates weren't injure, would this kinda tension i feel at my tailbone risk injuring my growth plate? I would say I've not fully grown yet, and have a feeling my growth plates might have had or is going through "takign the damage/stress" from weight lifting and not my ligaments.
Thoughts on this?
thanks
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(http://gifsoup.com/imager.php?id=843355&t=o)
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I do not want to give advice about your injury and if you should continue squatting or not. All I can say is that generally, there is nothing wrong with the barbell squat, while there are several things wrong with the first article you posted. For example: It is the heavy involvement of the lower back in a correctly performed squat that makes this lower back strong and therefore protected against injury. It is not surprising that the authors fail to see that, since they have to make sure that no one gets injured under their supervision in the weight-room. For them the consequences are less severe when instead someone gets injured on the playing field because he was not adequately prepared. So you can now see the bias in this opinion.
If you worry that your technique is bad, post a video of your squat.
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thanks miller well would you say growth plates injury are more of a temporary feeling, or like one that lasts a cpl days or weeks depending on how serious it is?
and yeah i'm gonna get to that, but should i take a side view or like a 45degree view?
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thanks miller well would you say growth plates injury are more of a temporary feeling, or like one that lasts a cpl days or weeks depending on how serious it is?
and yeah i'm gonna get to that, but should i take a side view or like a 45degree view?
45 degrees from the back.
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thanks miller well would you say growth plates injury are more of a temporary feeling, or like one that lasts a cpl days or weeks depending on how serious it is?
and yeah i'm gonna get to that, but should i take a side view or like a 45degree view?
45 degrees from the back.
Yup!
Regarding growth plate injuries: I do not know.
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@PointerRyan Your "tail bone" has no growth plates. Growth plates are only present on the "long bones" of your body. Those are the bones like your femur, tibia, humerus, etc. which have considerable length in comparison to other bones. The tail bone is an irregular bone, so it has no growth plates. Also, regarding pain with growth plate injuries, it's a part of your actual bone, so I would imagine it would feel like fracturing your bone normally.
About squatting, many of you know this, but I'll say it anyway. During the squat forces on the lumbar are more dangerous when the lower back is rounded. Regular human spines can usually take 12,000-18,000N of compressive force(back is straight) before buckling but can only take 1800-2800N of sheer force(back is rounded). Thus, it is very important to limit as much lumbar motion as possible when under load. Compressive force really isn't as much of a problem in my opinion. Compressive forces can be mitigated through good core strength, and decompressing the spine. Hanging from a chin up bar can help decompress the spine a bit.
My advice would be to not only get a squat vid up, but also to stretch regularly and do soft tissue work. T-spine mobility and hip mobility should be staples in an athletic program, especially when the athlete has issues with the lumbar. Get a foam roller(or rumble roller), lacrosse ball, some bands, and go get it. They are all very cheap. Without mobility in the hips, alterations to the pelvis can occur(anterior pelvic tilt, femoral acetabular impingement, blah blah blah, etc.) which will obviously throw off good position in the squat. Without thoracic mobility you won't be able to "keep your chest up" during the squat. Doing all of this may sound tedious, but it's definitely worth it, because you will feel better and move much more fluidly.
Also, you might want to drop stretches that involve back rounding(touch your toes stuff like that). There is a reason why many chiropractors are getting lawsuits for using flexion-distraction techniques. Always stretch with respect to the spine, and treat the spine like one joint when doing so(keep your back straight!!).
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And I think another thing that needs to be emphasized is to never twist when the back is loaded. The discs themselves are pretty sturdy when loaded "liniarly" but they are not built to sustain twisting under load. So don't do twisted crunches or twisting (even your head to see if you put the bar correctly onto the pins etc) under a loaded back.
At least this is what I know about the spine and the discs.
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thanks miller well would you say growth plates injury are more of a temporary feeling, or like one that lasts a cpl days or weeks depending on how serious it is?
and yeah i'm gonna get to that, but should i take a side view or like a 45degree view?
45 degrees from the back.
Yup!
Regarding growth plate injuries: I do not know.
right wil lget to it thanks man:)
@PointerRyan Your "tail bone" has no growth plates. Growth plates are only present on the "long bones" of your body. Those are the bones like your femur, tibia, humerus, etc. which have considerable length in comparison to other bones. The tail bone is an irregular bone, so it has no growth plates. Also, regarding pain with growth plate injuries, it's a part of your actual bone, so I would imagine it would feel like fracturing your bone normally.
About squatting, many of you know this, but I'll say it anyway. During the squat forces on the lumbar are more dangerous when the lower back is rounded. Regular human spines can usually take 12,000-18,000N of compressive force(back is straight) before buckling but can only take 1800-2800N of sheer force(back is rounded). Thus, it is very important to limit as much lumbar motion as possible when under load. Compressive force really isn't as much of a problem in my opinion. Compressive forces can be mitigated through good core strength, and decompressing the spine. Hanging from a chin up bar can help decompress the spine a bit.
My advice would be to not only get a squat vid up, but also to stretch regularly and do soft tissue work. T-spine mobility and hip mobility should be staples in an athletic program, especially when the athlete has issues with the lumbar. Get a foam roller(or rumble roller), lacrosse ball, some bands, and go get it. They are all very cheap. Without mobility in the hips, alterations to the pelvis can occur(anterior pelvic tilt, femoral acetabular impingement, blah blah blah, etc.) which will obviously throw off good position in the squat. Without thoracic mobility you won't be able to "keep your chest up" during the squat. Doing all of this may sound tedious, but it's definitely worth it, because you will feel better and move much more fluidly.
Also, you might want to drop stretches that involve back rounding(touch your toes stuff like that). There is a reason why many chiropractors are getting lawsuits for using flexion-distraction techniques. Always stretch with respect to the spine, and treat the spine like one joint when doing so(keep your back straight!!).
hmm well i did some surfing and by the sound of it, chances i injured it are really little. Well a fractured bone, will definitely leave you with pain like throughout the day right? not something you feel temporary durign certain movement etc yeah>?
i only feel the tension during weights or anything that places great stress on my lower back. besides, i have a weak lumber.
And yeah i've been during ltos of stretching everyday, primarily targetting the glutes, Adductor Magnus
, hamstrings, quadriceps(with split squats), groin, hams, calves, some upper back.
Any muscles i should focus on? like Deep Hip External Rotators,http://www.exrx.net/Lists/ExList/ThighWt.html#anchor1943047, those important?
Also i guess all the glute work i've been doing would help if i have anterior pelvic tilt. I guess i just gotta focus more on hip mobility and do more thoracic mobility work.
also another question, what's the point on keeping toes straight in a narrow stance during squats? what if it's sholder width but toes pointed out?>
thanks
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I'll answer more in depth later on what you asked. I gotta go hit the gym. I'll probably get to it tonight
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1) Yeah it would be very painful at all times, most likely.
2) About having your low back stressed out, it may be due to overactive erector spinae. That is, your erectors tighten up and are hypertonic to compensate for having a weak L2 segment. This is only an assumption, many people go on for years with back pain and never get a good diagnosis with proper treatment. If you want a good diagnosis you would need hands on work with someone who is very well informed, but people like that are rare.
3) You pretty much wanna hit everything around the hips first, prioritizing that, and then hit the t-spine. When addressing mobility you don't wanna hit "muscles" really. Just certain movements. It gets too complicated because the hip joint has a complex system of muscles that performs multiple tasks.
The most effective stretches I've used were taken from a guy named Kelly Starrett on Youtube. Look up Mobility Wod, and it will pop right up. Don't be offended that he's crossfit, he's got some decent stuff. I can't really give you the vids without it being a complete mess, because many of his vids have more than one topic, and he addresses some issues more than once(there are 300+ videos to boot). Just skim at the first 10-15, and he'll give you some of the basic ones for the hip.
Try these:
Hip flexor stretch w/anterior band distraction*
External rotation hip capsule stretch w/ lateral distraction
Internal rotation hip capsule stretch w/lateral distraction
Rectus Femoris stretch (split squat with foot elevated on bench/chair)
*Band distraction (by this i mean hook a band on something sturdy like a power rack, couch,etc. and load up your hip by using band tension) is optional, but really helps in the case of any impingement, and is more effective.
Yeah, make sure you do SMR/soft tissue work too(this is very important if you want healthy tissues), with a lacrosse ball(very cheap 3 for like $5), and a foam roller($20-30 after shipping usually).
Don't be afraid to hit a lot of these hard for more than 2min. if you have time/want to.
4) Yeah... dude keep doing the glute activation work, it definitely helps pre-workout. Activation stuff + stretching + soft tissue work may seem like a lot, but it helps in the long run. Just make sure you don't just "do" the stretches or soft tissue work. Do that based on how you feel, and how your joints feel.
5) Toes out opens up the hips and knees a lot, allowing you to shove the knees out and for greater depth when lacking range of motion. Toes forward will allow you to generate more torque, and more tension in the bottom position(assuming you shove your knees out here too), but is much harder to pull off because many lack proper joint range in the hips.
Think about it like this, when you squat toes out, you open up the hip naturally, because external rotation tends to follow the feet pointing out, however at the cost of the knee being unlocked medially. Many argue that you need to point your feet out because you when the femur is externally rotated, the knees move out, so the feet out will allow the "knees to track with the toes." Although this may be a good idea, if the hip ever loses external rotation, that means the knee will come with it as well. This internal rotation will cause the knee to twist in, causing misalignment in the femur/tibia, and then you can possibly tear an ACL or MCL.
When you squat feet straight, you can still externally rotate if you have proper hip range in both internal rotation and external rotation, but like I said, that is difficult for some. The plus here is that, even if you lose external rotation during the movement, your knee is locked, meaning you cannot "twist" it in, because it will only move back to neutral because of your foot position. This also creates more torque in the bottom position, which can be good or bad depending on how flexible you are. If you are very flexible you can take advantage and use a more powerful "bounce" out of the bottom using the soft tissues like the adductors, instead of bouncing off passive tissues. Many argue that "the knees do not track the toes" in this type of squat, but most people have excessive valgus(knee caving in) anyway. The knee is in a much more stable position when the knees come out anyway, we shouldn't have to worry about excessive varus(knees out) angle for most individuals.
Wide vs narrow stance depends on how much muscle capsule length(hip capsule) you have. Wide puts more stress on the capsule, which is not necessarily good or bad(really depends on individual's mobility).
A lot of people will argue, but both squats are fine imo, as long as the knee does not internally rotate. You should also watch out for arches of the foot collapsing during a toes out squat too, but that isn't as important as knee position
Sorry if this is long, lol. Let me know if there are questions you want answered or any mistakes in there, typing stuff all at once isn't my thing.
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1) Yeah it would be very painful at all times, most likely.
2) About having your low back stressed out, it may be due to overactive erector spinae. That is, your erectors tighten up and are hypertonic to compensate for having a weak L2 segment. This is only an assumption, many people go on for years with back pain and never get a good diagnosis with proper treatment. If you want a good diagnosis you would need hands on work with someone who is very well informed, but people like that are rare.
3) You pretty much wanna hit everything around the hips first, prioritizing that, and then hit the t-spine. When addressing mobility you don't wanna hit "muscles" really. Just certain movements. It gets too complicated because the hip joint has a complex system of muscles that performs multiple tasks.
The most effective stretches I've used were taken from a guy named Kelly Starrett on Youtube. Look up Mobility Wod, and it will pop right up. Don't be offended that he's crossfit, he's got some decent stuff. I can't really give you the vids without it being a complete mess, because many of his vids have more than one topic, and he addresses some issues more than once(there are 300+ videos to boot). Just skim at the first 10-15, and he'll give you some of the basic ones for the hip.
Try these:
Hip flexor stretch w/anterior band distraction*
External rotation hip capsule stretch w/ lateral distraction
Internal rotation hip capsule stretch w/lateral distraction
Rectus Femoris stretch (split squat with foot elevated on bench/chair)
*Band distraction (by this i mean hook a band on something sturdy like a power rack, couch,etc. and load up your hip by using band tension) is optional, but really helps in the case of any impingement, and is more effective.
Yeah, make sure you do SMR/soft tissue work too(this is very important if you want healthy tissues), with a lacrosse ball(very cheap 3 for like $5), and a foam roller($20-30 after shipping usually).
Don't be afraid to hit a lot of these hard for more than 2min. if you have time/want to.
4) Yeah... dude keep doing the glute activation work, it definitely helps pre-workout. Activation stuff + stretching + soft tissue work may seem like a lot, but it helps in the long run. Just make sure you don't just "do" the stretches or soft tissue work. Do that based on how you feel, and how your joints feel.
5) Toes out opens up the hips and knees a lot, allowing you to shove the knees out and for greater depth when lacking range of motion. Toes forward will allow you to generate more torque, and more tension in the bottom position(assuming you shove your knees out here too), but is much harder to pull off because many lack proper joint range in the hips.
Think about it like this, when you squat toes out, you open up the hip naturally, because external rotation tends to follow the feet pointing out, however at the cost of the knee being unlocked medially. Many argue that you need to point your feet out because you when the femur is externally rotated, the knees move out, so the feet out will allow the "knees to track with the toes." Although this may be a good idea, if the hip ever loses external rotation, that means the knee will come with it as well. This internal rotation will cause the knee to twist in, causing misalignment in the femur/tibia, and then you can possibly tear an ACL or MCL.
When you squat feet straight, you can still externally rotate if you have proper hip range in both internal rotation and external rotation, but like I said, that is difficult for some. The plus here is that, even if you lose external rotation during the movement, your knee is locked, meaning you cannot "twist" it in, because it will only move back to neutral because of your foot position. This also creates more torque in the bottom position, which can be good or bad depending on how flexible you are. If you are very flexible you can take advantage and use a more powerful "bounce" out of the bottom using the soft tissues like the adductors, instead of bouncing off passive tissues. Many argue that "the knees do not track the toes" in this type of squat, but most people have excessive valgus(knee caving in) anyway. The knee is in a much more stable position when the knees come out anyway, we shouldn't have to worry about excessive varus(knees out) angle for most individuals.
Wide vs narrow stance depends on how much muscle capsule length(hip capsule) you have. Wide puts more stress on the capsule, which is not necessarily good or bad(really depends on individual's mobility).
A lot of people will argue, but both squats are fine imo, as long as the knee does not internally rotate. You should also watch out for arches of the foot collapsing during a toes out squat too, but that isn't as important as knee position
Sorry if this is long, lol. Let me know if there are questions you want answered or any mistakes in there, typing stuff all at once isn't my thing.
hmm well it's good that it's detailed, exactly what i need.
erm well about the stretches, i've looked up that guy on youtube and does give ltos of good advice for squatting flexibility stuff.
But was wondering what you think of my stretchign routine.
split squat with rear leg elevated, while doign a side bend to stretch my tricep and some lats and obliques?
hamstring stretch seating on the floor, leg straight, back straight. I use my hands to push me up to feel the stretch and to keep my back straight .
then another in a seated position, right leg straight, while left leg bends at knee with foot placed next to the external side of the knee of the right leg that is straight. foot flat while knee will be standing. In this position, i place my right elbow at the external side of my left knee, and push my body , so that i twist towards my left.
then this
http://www.exrx.net/Stretches/HipAdductors/LyingAdductorMagnus.html
I do somethign like a split while standing up, where my back, and hands are like in a push up position, taking off the stress of the stretching muscles
and in this website which is http://exercise.about.com/cs/flexibility/l/blstretch.htm , i do the following stertches in there:
Hip/Glute Stretch
Inner Thigh Stretch
Spine Twist
so yeah thats basically the stretches i do. I try to maintain back straight in all stretches.
oh i also do this once in a while:
http://www.exrx.net/Stretches/HipExternalRotators/LyingHipExternalRotator.html
Does that sound enough?
any other stretches i should add in?
And for the squats, i am not flexible, so i guess i should continue sholder width stance swith toes pointing out about 30degrees or less
well i would guess with a wider stance, to reach parallel, more flexibility is needed too yeah?
since i'm not flexible, and have lower back issues, i guess the most suitable squat would be shoudler width, feet pointing out slightly, back squats of course, and of course not restricting my knees up to a point where it can't cross my toes not even an inch or two.
that good?
also, arches of the foot collapsing? that sounds screwed up. how does that happen? dayum.
thanks again:)
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are you stretching your calves? you should be. as far as foot position and stuff on squats, here's something that's helped me:
put a little weight on the bar (an empty bar will be too light, start with 95# or so) and just squat a whole bunch of times, changing foot position until you find something that's comfortable and allows you to get low while still keeping your back neutral. once you find a comfortable position, squat down and just stay there for 15-20s. repeat. i've been doing that stretch for a few reps at the beginning of each workout for a few months now and it's made a big difference. i already had decent mobility and it's just getting better and better.
for what it's worth, i seem to do best with my feet about shoulder width and my toes angled out about 10-15 degrees. that is, pretty straight forward. what works for you will be dependent on your own mechanics.
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@PointerRyan I like the Split squat stretch, it hits the rectus femoris and other tissues well. Other than that, all the stretches aren't as "good" as the stretches from mobility wod. They are still effective, but honestly I've seen way more results in terms of ROM with those stretches, they're almost magic. You'll definitely liberate more range of motion if you learn those stretches, it's definitely worth it.
As for the rest, hamstring stretching is dependent on the case, but if you can feel the stretch in the middle of the hamstring, you can keep going with that if you want. The external rotation stretch isn't TOO useful if you don't apply FADIR(flexion, adduction, internal rotation) but isn't useless. In that external rotation stretch you're in extension still, so it's not as effective. If you do stretch using a position using FADIR, make sure you do not feel any pinching or impingement, or else that could be femoral acetabular impingement.
The adductor magnus stretch is decent, but I prefer going into a lunge, and driving the elbow to the floor, but it doesn't matter as much.
Definitely omit the spine twist dude, bad idea for the lumbar segments, they shouldn't have excessive mobility.
... I'll answer the rest later, and I like LBSS's idea, squatting with a small amount of weight in the bottom position definitely helps, you can even do it with a dumbbell going with a "goblet squat." It really helps put you down into a new ROM, sorta like a PNF stretch. It really helps to use your elbows to shove your knees out when you do these goblet squats too.
Edit: So yeah, just do what you can with your current ROM, and then maybe you can change your stance, foot position, etc over time. I would say the most ideal foot range would be 0-10 degrees out, but like I said, it depends on your current ROM, and you can improve it over time, and yeah hit your calves like what LBSS said too. Try to use the wall stretch, where you put the ball of your foot on a wall and push your knee to the wall. Much more effective other calf stretches, because your calf does not have to work during the stretch.
That part about the knees/toes, kind of hard to understand what you are saying, but I think you said that you will ignore your knees being over your toes? If so, then yeah, no restrictions there, just make sure you shove your knees out too.
Arches collapsing just means your foot goes flat lol, Weight gets distributed unevenly on your foot, causing the arch to collapse(going flat), letting the ankle collapse, affecting things upstream like the knee. The opposite is also true, if the knee collapses, so do the ankles and arches of the feet.
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are you stretching your calves? you should be. as far as foot position and stuff on squats, here's something that's helped me:
put a little weight on the bar (an empty bar will be too light, start with 95# or so) and just squat a whole bunch of times, changing foot position until you find something that's comfortable and allows you to get low while still keeping your back neutral. once you find a comfortable position, squat down and just stay there for 15-20s. repeat. i've been doing that stretch for a few reps at the beginning of each workout for a few months now and it's made a big difference. i already had decent mobility and it's just getting better and better.
for what it's worth, i seem to do best with my feet about shoulder width and my toes angled out about 10-15 degrees. that is, pretty straight forward. what works for you will be dependent on your own mechanics.
ah right i will try that but what you mean bottom? ATG or parallel? so if my 1RM is like 81-82kg, would using 30kg be sufficient?
and yeah i'm doing the squats that seem best for you know but i'll vary and see hows my ROM like.
i do this calf stretch:http://www.exrx.net/Stretches/Gastrocnemius/Wall.html
the 2nd or 2rd set when i do it, my calf feels not tight at all haha
@PointerRyan I like the Split squat stretch, it hits the rectus femoris and other tissues well. Other than that, all the stretches aren't as "good" as the stretches from mobility wod. They are still effective, but honestly I've seen way more results in terms of ROM with those stretches, they're almost magic. You'll definitely liberate more range of motion if you learn those stretches, it's definitely worth it.
As for the rest, hamstring stretching is dependent on the case, but if you can feel the stretch in the middle of the hamstring, you can keep going with that if you want. The external rotation stretch isn't TOO useful if you don't apply FADIR(flexion, adduction, internal rotation) but isn't useless. In that external rotation stretch you're in extension still, so it's not as effective. If you do stretch using a position using FADIR, make sure you do not feel any pinching or impingement, or else that could be femoral acetabular impingement.
The adductor magnus stretch is decent, but I prefer going into a lunge, and driving the elbow to the floor, but it doesn't matter as much.
Definitely omit the spine twist dude, bad idea for the lumbar segments, they shouldn't have excessive mobility.
... I'll answer the rest later, and I like LBSS's idea, squatting with a small amount of weight in the bottom position definitely helps, you can even do it with a dumbbell going with a "goblet squat." It really helps put you down into a new ROM, sorta like a PNF stretch. It really helps to use your elbows to shove your knees out when you do these goblet squats too.
Edit: So yeah, just do what you can with your current ROM, and then maybe you can change your stance, foot position, etc over time. I would say the most ideal foot range would be 0-10 degrees out, but like I said, it depends on your current ROM, and you can improve it over time, and yeah hit your calves like what LBSS said too. Try to use the wall stretch, where you put the ball of your foot on a wall and push your knee to the wall. Much more effective other calf stretches, because your calf does not have to work during the stretch.
That part about the knees/toes, kind of hard to understand what you are saying, but I think you said that you will ignore your knees being over your toes? If so, then yeah, no restrictions there, just make sure you shove your knees out too.
Arches collapsing just means your foot goes flat lol, Weight gets distributed unevenly on your foot, causing the arch to collapse(going flat), letting the ankle collapse, affecting things upstream like the knee. The opposite is also true, if the knee collapses, so do the ankles and arches of the feet.
right middle of hamstring will get to that.
btw for the stretches, are you talking bout this vid? cause he ha too many i cant possibly do them all lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY31J5BeKrg
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hL3CVpu8zN8
those two?
ANd yeah thanks for the advice on the stretches wont do spine twists anymore. stupid back doctor.
well i asked lbss bout what is the "bottom" for the squat, as in parallel or atg but i guess he could naswer that.
oh what you think about this calf stretch?
http://www.exrx.net/Stretches/Gastrocnemius/Wall.html
i'm doing that now
and yeah i mean the knees over toes.
and damn seems painful jeez.
and what you think about this vid of frank yang squatting?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6Zxes2-AmY&feature=plcp&context=C312d9f0UDOEgsToPDskK-Q8aio6qbSzPngqgpBugE
it seems his knees buckle in on the way up. is that how my knees should be if my toes point straight?
thanks alot again
EDIT:
could you give me an alt ex particularly for squats? the rest is not neccessary but squats more important
http://www.adarq.org/forum/sts-qa/alternating-exercises/
EDIT 2:
hwo long do you hold the stretches for? kelly starett says something like a few minutes and thats crazy long. i normalyl do 30seconds and i thought anythign more than a minute is too much, isn't it?
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Nahh, I meant this stretch: @ around 3:10 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SE-yVP691SA&feature=related
Those other stretches he shows in that vid you showed are nice too if you don't have space, don't have a band, or if you want to change it up. You can still do that stretch at 3:10 without a band though.
Yeah that groin stretch I like a lot, you can do that on the floor too if you don't have a nice soft bed or couch to put your leg on. You can even use lateral distraction on that too if you can.
For calf stretching this is what I prefer: @ around 1:15 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLj_VkfQzJI
Again, you don't have to use a band, but it's always preferred. You can use a box like he does, or you can just use a wall. You should probably wear a shoe(make sure it's a low top) so the foot can grip on the wall.
About that Frank Yang video. He's strong, but his squat there is just atrocious. His knee wouldn't go in as much if he shoved his knees out first before descending to the bottom. Even if you have straight feet, you can still get a lot of valgus knee, but shoving you knees out WITH straight feet will get you the best results in terms of knee position/safety/power in my opinion.
You also have to consider that he's stopping at parallel so there are 2 things going wrong: 1) The bottom A2G recieving position, to get some soft tissue bounce(I say soft tissue because, you don't want to bounce on your ligaments or capsule alone, you should use a combination of muscle tension, muscle capsule, AND ligaments to receive load) 2) Stopping at parallel means the knees are at 90 degrees of flexion, which is the weakest position for the knee(the strongest being in full flexion, and full extension), so he reverses when his knee is at it's weakest point.
I'm not saying you have to use A2G when squatting for athletic performance, I'm just saying that A2G is nice when you want to squat and receive heavy loads(when trained right, it's actually easier going A2G)
For your alternating exercises shiz, I'll post later, on that board, I don't want this to look like another wall of text.
EDIT: Oh yeah, didn't see the stretching thing at the bottom, I'll post that hear, because it's more relevant.
Stretching for minutes is fine, as long as it's not like 10+ min. spent in one position. You should however, go on feel. You couldn't possibly performs all the stretches he talks about(on his mwod project he probably has a couple dozen) for a good quality 2 min. Everyday, and after your workouts(and even before you workout if you need the extra ROM) you should spend 10-15 minutes on stretching or soft tissue work. Pick 2-3 stretches and do them for 1-4 minutes each. Make sure you pick body parts that need more ROM or are getting real beat up. The rest of the time remaining can be for soft tissue work and stuff like that. Quality stretching(spending a couple minutes on what is bad), instead of quantity(stretching every muscle in the body everyday). Stretching should not be like exercising like you "just do it"(like a routine). It should be based on how you feel, and where your really banged up.
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wow just did the hip one and man did it ease my hip uncomfortableness from basketball training,aside from the other 2stretches i posted from the same guy.
ima try that calf stretches ltr or tmrw. just wondering,dont the band make it a little like strengthening the muscles stretched too?
and man i knew it there was something wrong with his squats. he never fails to surprise me. his training mixtape was wicked. he did atg squats with lower back rounding alot n nvr got injured.
haha that'[ll be greatly appreciated man thx:)
hmm i guess i'll do one set of my normal routine n go few minutes on his stretching. just wondering, do i need to do a few sets or a set s good enough?also yuou say do mobility work before workout. wont the excessive periods of stretching decrease my muscles' output?
thanks alot once again
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lol, yeah the hip capsule stretch really hits that hip hard, especially with that distraction. Most people have femurs that come forward in the socket, because they sit all day, so that helps clear things up an reapproximate the femur.
Yeah, Frank is a cool guy, just terrible squat form. Still strong, well, not so much anymore, because of his "get authentic" bodybuilding.
Do the sets on feel, one set is fine if you really work hard with it for a minute or 2 or 3. Really try to spend quality time hunting around when you stretch, don't just hold it. You should look to find tight areas, and really get uncomfortable, sometimes you might feel like vomiting a little(don't do it though), to really push your ROM. I know this goes against what a lot of people are taught when it comes to stretching, but it's more effective, and time efficient, just make sure your not on any nerves, or feel any pinching. If you ever feel sharp pains, or nervy pains, you should probably stop, or relocate your position.
On that static stretching pre-workout, it's fine. Studies do show that power output decreases after static stretching, but in many of those studies, power output decreases by like 2%. It really doesn't make a huge difference. Besides, when you lose good position, you lose power. You can't enter a workout broken(in terms of posture/position) and expect great power output. In that case, you would be working against yourself, because your body is not in optimal alignment. I've set many jump PRs on days where I static stretched pre-workout because I felt tight in my hips. Just make sure you get a good warm up in after the stretching, and you do glute activation stuff, etc.
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ahj i see.
haha indeed frank yang is what i visualize in my head before squatting.
hmm bout the stretch, do i stop when i feel a litle numb feeling? and yeah i think i've got no choice my current routin not working out
hmm interesting. so for squatting ,i need to stretch my glutes and abductors yeah? are 6seconds stretches good?
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You shouldn't be going numb or pinching anywhere, unless it's from the band on your hip or something. Just readjust your body in the stretch, and try to get a different angle. If you feel numbness, you're probably on a nerve(like when you touch your toes, you may feel numbness down your thigh hint: sciatic nerve), and you don't want to stress those things out.
First, deload if you feel drained(mentally or physically, don't do this often though). See if changing the load/reps helps for 1 workout. Like going from heavier sets of 4-6 to lighter sets of 6-8. If that doesn't help, or you can't because of your goals(like if you're in season, you don't want to train high reps because of soreness) then go ahead and switch.
Pre-squat, just do the stretch until you can feel a change or see change. Either the bodypart you stretched feels better and less tight, or you test and retest with a bodyweight squat or something and you see you went lower. Could be 6 seconds, could 2 minutes. Go with what works for the day, that is important.
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You shouldn't be going numb or pinching anywhere, unless it's from the band on your hip or something. Just readjust your body in the stretch, and try to get a different angle. If you feel numbness, you're probably on a nerve(like when you touch your toes, you may feel numbness down your thigh hint: sciatic nerve), and you don't want to stress those things out.
First, deload if you feel drained(mentally or physically, don't do this often though). See if changing the load/reps helps for 1 workout. Like going from heavier sets of 4-6 to lighter sets of 6-8. If that doesn't help, or you can't because of your goals(like if you're in season, you don't want to train high reps because of soreness) then go ahead and switch.
Pre-squat, just do the stretch until you can feel a change or see change. Either the bodypart you stretched feels better and less tight, or you test and retest with a bodyweight squat or something and you see you went lower. Could be 6 seconds, could 2 minutes. Go with what works for the day, that is important.
right thanks again. man i gottra feelign i overstretched a little and thats why i feel some soreness. ou say hold the stretch for a few minutes, but how do i prevent over stretching? i mean there's no point stretching for few minutes feeling little to nothing right?
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Yeah, that's why you need soft tissue work. A lot of people will say do soft tissue work before you stretch, but I would argue you want to do so before AND after you stretch. Sometimes after you stretch muscles can become irritated due to the joint capsule or just from the position. The releasing definitely helps with hypertonic muscles. You can't really overstretch, with those stretches, but you could just be very tight, soft tissue work definitely helps. Overtime you won't get sore from the stretching either, because those muscles will lengthen.
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hmm so basically keep doing it yeah/ soft tissue work, to confirm, is the stretches kelly has been showing right?
or is soft tissue work foam rolling?
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Any technique that's like a massage. Foam roller, lacrosse ball, barbell(very painful), etc. Practically anything can be used for soft tissue work, just be careful and don't get ahead of yourself with certain implements(like a barbell if you're not ready). And yeah, just keep doing the stuff until you aren't so tight that you get sore.