Author Topic: Andre Iguodala 2015 Finals MVP  (Read 5725 times)

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adarqui

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Andre Iguodala 2015 Finals MVP
« on: June 17, 2015, 12:48:43 am »
+1
whoa.. dope. happy for him.

man he was the difference maker.


ChrisM

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Re: Andre Iguodala 2015 Finals MVP
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2015, 12:52:26 am »
+2
I legit think they got this right. It was pretty much a toss up between Steph and him IMO. Steph did steph things but Iggys defense on LBJ was a huge difference AND he added a much needed scoring punch with Klay having a horrible series.
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LBSS

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Re: Andre Iguodala 2015 Finals MVP
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2015, 11:08:32 am »
+3
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

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acole14

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Re: Andre Iguodala 2015 Finals MVP
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2015, 11:30:30 pm »
+2
How can you give it to a player who was LVP of the elimination game??

http://stats.inpredictable.com/nba/wpBox_live.php?gid=1545264&odds=ff&both=y

He had impressive counting stats but only because his usage was sky high with the other two out. Not very efficient shooting. Don't know what his PER was for the series but I can't imagine it was that high with <40fg%.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2015, 11:32:09 pm by acole14 »

ChrisM

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Re: Andre Iguodala 2015 Finals MVP
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2015, 08:38:45 am »
+1
^Agreed! LeBrons box score numbers look great, 30-10-8 or more basically all series. But, watching the games shows how inefficient he was overall and is backed up by lots of metrics.

Personally, I think giving Andre the MVP is pretty symbolic of this GSW team...its a team effort. Yes, the team goes as Steph goes but on any night they always have someone step up and play a larger role.
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LBSS

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Re: Andre Iguodala 2015 Finals MVP
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2015, 09:28:16 am »
+1
You're both wrong. Without LeBron, the team that faced GS in the finals is basically a 20-win team and gets annihilated by 30 per game in a sweep. The Cavs SUCKED, they did not have another replacement-level offensive player, but they won two games in the finals, including one on the road, against the best team in recent memory. LeBron's shooting percentage was down because his usage was so high, but their best possible offense was "iso LeBron, then get offensive rebounds." So he went to work.

LeBron dragging this roster to the finals and the brink of an NBA championship after Love and Irving went down is the greatest performance of his career.

Meanwhile, if GS loses Iguodala they probably still win the series.
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ChrisM

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Re: Andre Iguodala 2015 Finals MVP
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2015, 11:41:29 am »
+2
I dont think so...Iggys D on Bron was a major turning point. He was killing Klay and Green all series. Only Iggy held him to a sub par offensive showing (fg% wise, effective offensive %, ts%, etc).

I think the Warriors would have won in 7 without Iggy yes and they did have a better team...thats obvious. But Lebrons stats are slighlty deceiving. Did he put on an epic performance all post season? Absolutely.  But he also waded throughthe sub par Eastern Conference.  The cavs wouldn't make it out of the 2nd round in the West.

And...while I think Bron isa great player for sure...I find his mentality lacking in comparison to guys like Bird, Jordan, Magic, even Kobe. I could provide factual evidence but thats for another post :)
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LBSS

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Re: Andre Iguodala 2015 Finals MVP
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2015, 02:46:52 pm »
+1


And...while I think Bron isa great player for sure...I find his mentality lacking in comparison to guys like Bird, Jordan, Magic, even Kobe. I could provide factual evidence but thats for another post :)

aw, don't be coy now. i'd like to see this "factual" evidence.

lebron was the most valuable player in the finals. arguing otherwise just means that by "most valuable" you mean "played the best on the team that won."
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vag

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Re: Andre Iguodala 2015 Finals MVP
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2015, 05:52:35 pm »
+1
^Word!
I don't buy the LVP rating either. Yes, he had 40%fg and 6TO but still, 32pts 18 rebounds and 9 assists = LVP? nope.
His finals average was 36p / 13reb / 9as , in 6 games, 46 min avg playtime. And that was coming from 30/11/9 at the conference finals and 26/11/9 at the conference semis. I get dizzy just typing those numbers!
 
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acole14

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Re: Andre Iguodala 2015 Finals MVP
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2015, 01:00:52 am »
+2
@LBSS and vag, you need to look up pace-adjusted stats, uncontested/contested rebound % etc. Raw numbers are misleading when a player's usage is >40%. Points per shot he was miles away from Curry. Despite the ridiculous counting stats his PER was only ~25.5 (calculated it from b-ref formula but might be a bit off), good given the circumstances but not the legendary performance LeSPN is hyping it as. You're letting the narrative get in the way of the stats/facts:

-Iguodala really killed him 1v1: ~33 fg% shooting against Iguodala and nullified the LeBron iso or nothing strategy.

-Dud game 4 when up 2-1: 7-22, 20 points, 5-10fts.

-Dud game 6 (yes probably not 'LVP' but the missed threes really hurt, plus he basically let Curry have an uncontested layup with <5min when the game was still winnable!)

So on balance I think 2nd to Iguodala was appropriate. Within reasonable bounds, no one is 'wrong' when it comes to ideas of 'value', almost by definition. That's why I like that they call it 'most valuable' player because it starts good arguments. Ultimately I associate value with wins, and until they perfect the wins added metric when they finally incorporate the motion-tracking stuff to quantify defense, it's subjective as to whether Iggy's D was more valuable than LeBron's overall stats in a losing effort.

LeBron's shooting percentage was down because his usage was so high, but their best possible offense was "iso LeBron, then get offensive rebounds." So he went to work.


So...? The >usage, <fg% is probably true but not proven yet anyway. It's a small sample size problem because barely anyone has played at 40% usg in a finals series. Closest comparisons are '93 MJ (38.9 usg, ~same ts% as reg season) and '01 Iverson (37.6 usg, 51.8 ts% vs 48.6 ts%, shot a bit worse). LeBron's drop-off was huge, because his outside shot was way off. He went from 57.7 ts% reg season to 47.7 ts% in the finals. He didn't get aggressively double-teamed or anything. You can say it's fatigue from doing too much, but to be fair, he's still only 30, he only played 85% reg season games (probably to take a two-week HGH vacation  :trollface:), and he had 8 days rest before the finals. MJ had a similar load in the '93 finals.


And...while I think Bron isa great player for sure...I find his mentality lacking in comparison to guys like Bird, Jordan, Magic, even Kobe. I could provide factual evidence but thats for another post :)

aw, don't be coy now. i'd like to see this "factual" evidence.


Here you go:

[Player: playoff PER, ts%, ws/48 (difference between RS and PO in parenthesis)]:

Jordan: 28.6(+0.7), 56.8%(-0.1%), 0.255(+0.05)

James: 27.4(-0.3), 56.5(-1.6%), 0.233(-0.07)

Very broadly, Jordan generally played better in the playoffs; LeBron's stats always slip. It might not seem it from this post but I am a LeBron fan, I think he's the greatest physical+skills package ever. But his playoff career will be considered slightly underwhelming when it's all said and done. He really botched the 2011 Finals, for example. Dirk absolutely owned him mentally IMO. Probably nothing to do with him and everything to do with massive hype, bad PR 'Decisions', social media pressures that didn't exist 10yrs ago, 24hr ESPN news cycle etc.

maxent

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Re: Andre Iguodala 2015 Finals MVP
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2015, 03:17:35 am »
+1
You can't compare those stats in a vacuum. MJ's supporting cast >> LBJs. Don't think anyone would argue that in the Cleveland days but for arguments sake you could say Miami's were equal.
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ChrisM

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Re: Andre Iguodala 2015 Finals MVP
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2015, 09:22:41 am »
+1
Acole covered offensive stats pretty well so I'll hit on some key defensive stats on LBJ.

LBJ keeps his man in front of him only 40% of the time in dribble drive scenarios....almost 12% lower than the league average.

His defensive win shares and defensive rating are both below the league median as well. The defensive rating is a pretty well encompassing view of a players overall defense...which says a bit.

His real +/- is .21 points below the league average.

His overall block percentage is abysmal which counters ESPNs hour long segment on each chase down block...

Hes giving up 85.5 points per 100 possessions where hes the primary defender. Thats 55th percentile. On spot up jumpers where he'd be the close out defender its even worse, 100.4 points per 100. That points to laziness.

Basically....I cant call him the best player in the planet when he literally takes plays off on D (and O for that matter) or is a league average defender at best. (Granted if he tried he'd probably be better but...cmon...if you dont want it enough to try then...)


As for his mentality...it just sucks. He throws teammates and coaches under the bus, claims he's the greatest (ive never seen any video where Kobe, Jordan, Bird, etc claimed that during their career), and generally is salty as fuck. Remember him losing the scoring title to KD one year?  How he daid he'd average 60ppg if he took 30 shots a game like 'they' did? Guess what...he just shot over 30 attempts per game and averaged 36ppg. Don't get mad that KD is offensively more efficient LBJ...do something about it! Wait, that would require him to add facets of the game to his that are lacking  (which means he'd need to work on his game but we'll get to that in a min). LBJs offensive issues are the se as when he came in the league, shaky handle, streaky jumper, no go to move (a dunk isnt a go to move lol). All these are fixable butnhis work ethic is shit compared to Jordan and Kobe. They came back each summer and worked to be better...James just coasts on pure freak athleticism and hasnt legitimately grown his game.


First half...factual. Second half...things Ive seen as a guy who grew up watching this game and has a pretty firm grasp of the nuances that define winners vs average players or role players. So...just my thoughts.

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ChrisM

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Re: Andre Iguodala 2015 Finals MVP
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2015, 09:27:22 am »
+2
Oh random stat that backs up my comment about how the East is weak...

# of 50 win teams beaten in a series:

Kobe: 24
Jordan: 20
Duncan: 18
James: 7.

Acoles right...put his teams in the west and he makes maybe 3 finals.
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LBSS

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Re: Andre Iguodala 2015 Finals MVP
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2015, 01:11:03 pm »
0
No doubt that his paths to finals have been easier because he plays in the East. And I'm not trying to compare him to Jordan, although I think maxent's point is important: Jordan's Bulls teams were comparatively stacked - he was always playing alongside one and sometimes more than one future hall of famer for the championship runs.* LeBron was playing with some bullshit after Kyrie went down. There was basically no one else on the team who could score reliably.

I grant that he pooped the bed in 2011, that Jordan was better in the playoffs, etc. But that's all beside the point: The point is that LeBron was BY FAR the most valuable player in this series. Sure Iggy fucked his shit up on D, sure he shot badly from 3 and from the line, sure the advanced stats are not great, but the fact is that no other player had even close to as strong an impact on his team's performance as did LeBron. Again, if you want the MVP to mean "best player on the winning team," then okay. Iggy getting it shows that at least a fair number of media people think that. And Iggy was awesome! He was the MVP for the Warriors without a doubt! But I prefer a literal reading of the term and by that reading I just don't see how it could be anyone but LeBron.

*PS: Off-topic, but for an explanation of just how huge a contributor Dennis Rodman was, please see this fascinating read: http://skepticalsports.com/the-case-for-dennis-rodman-guide/.
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ChrisM

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Re: Andre Iguodala 2015 Finals MVP
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2015, 01:51:52 pm »
0
That is a great read on Rodman,  one of my favs.

Its true that LBJ had a higher PIE rating than anyone else...4 points better than Currys. But his usage rate doubled Currys, which again points to his inefficiency.  :/


Brons #s at face value suggest his impact was huge but if you really watch the games...even when Steph wasnt shooting well he still had aassive impact on the game because the entire Cavs D was adjusted to slow him down. Without Currys manipulation of the Cavs D (drawing double and triple teams, moving helpside away from the 2nd pass, etc) these Warriors are nothing. No single player on the Warriors can replace him and what he does, even without his shooting. His mere presence on the floor dictates the d and where it is. In that regard his impact was similar to James but without the gaudy stats. Although....one could argue that given a similar usage rate his stats would be mind blowing as well.  Fun topic lol
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