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Sport Specific Training Discussion => Basketball => Topic started by: fast does lie on October 06, 2017, 10:34:10 am

Title: Double EastBay on 10ft rim is definitely Doable
Post by: fast does lie on October 06, 2017, 10:34:10 am
Criteria:

-6 FT 1 - 6-7 in height

-Must be of West African Descent/ancestry (studies show this race tends to have the most fast twitch muscle fiber)

-Must have a wingspan similar to those of many NBA players, ie wingspan 105%+  of height

-Must have a tremendous base strength in comparison to body weight (many of these pro dunkers definitely lack base strength) but have so much elastic ability

-Must be sub 6% body fat

-Must have at least a good ability to palm the ball

All of this plus a lot of practice, flexibility, good coordination, and I guarantee this person will be able to pull off the double east bay on 10 ft.

Title: Re: Double EastBay on 10ft rim is definitely Doable
Post by: adarqui on October 06, 2017, 10:44:35 am
Criteria:

-6 FT 1 - 6-7 in height

-Must be of West African Descent/ancestry (studies show this race tends to have the most fast twitch muscle fiber)

lmao :uhhhfacepalm:

so you mean a white person (or any1 not fitting West African Descent - even though we all descend from Africa), who say, matches all of the qualities you mentioned except this one, can't do it?

anyone jumping ~45+" with a long wing span can theoretically pull it off, they just need to be obsessed with trying to make it, putting in all of the work on lower rims until they get to 10'.

45-50" is the biggest factor, you need enough time (near 1s off of the ground) to go through both legs while still having a chance to dunk it, so need to get up really high.. in addition to that, longer wingspan definitely helps.

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-Must have a wingspan similar to those of many NBA players, ie wingspan 105%+  of height

-Must have a tremendous base strength in comparison to body weight (many of these pro dunkers definitely lack base strength) but have so much elastic ability

why does base strength matter? all that matters is that you get up insanely high.. being more reactive/elastic is probably better, means you can just get off the ground easier and still fly, rather than getting deeper into your plant and focusing so hard on getting up.

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-Must be sub 6% body fat

-Must have at least a good ability to palm the ball

All of this plus a lot of practice, flexibility, good coordination, and I guarantee this person will be able to pull off the double east bay on 10 ft.

it's definitely doable.. Jonathan Clark fits pretty much all of those requirements.

Some older dunkers could have probably gotten it in their prime, like James White.. height+wingspan+vert+coordination.
Title: Re: Double EastBay on 10ft rim is definitely Doable
Post by: fast does lie on October 06, 2017, 11:01:37 am
I don't think these pro dunkers can get up over 48" above the ground ON A DUNK ATTEMPT (perhaps on a pure jump), that is why I say base strength matters. I think with good base strength compared to bw, this could push some of these dunkers over 48" on a dunk attempt.

Yeah Jonathan Clark does fit most of these categories and is sort of close to pulling it off, but not really.

I think he still does lack a bit of base strength and might be a bit too upper body heavy. I don't know about his wingspan, flexibility, or ability to palm/control the bball.

I'm not saying a white person can't pull this off, or asian for that matter lol, so long as they can really leap in the high 40s ON A DUNK attempt and have the wingspan/flexibility/coordination etc, but statistically speaking, there is a higher ratio of people of West AFrican descent that fit these categories than other races.

It's not a coincidence that the top sprinters in the world year after year are all those that are of direct West African descent.

Title: Re: Double EastBay on 10ft rim is definitely Doable
Post by: adarqui on October 06, 2017, 11:24:36 am
I don't think these pro dunkers can get up over 48" above the ground ON A DUNK ATTEMPT (perhaps on a pure jump), that is why I say base strength matters. I think with good base strength compared to bw, this could push some of these dunkers over 48" on a dunk attempt.

that's one of the biggest factors though, you nailed it.. getting up over 45+ ON A DRIBBLE DUNK ATTEMPT. T-Dub could do it, golden child could do it, James White could do it.. Double eastbay wasn't huge in their era. Double eastbay off lob is way harder than off of a dribble, so someone with all of the skills/flexibility/vert is going to additionally need to get up disgusting off dribble. Separating the two skills, max vert & double eastbay, seems really hard from a motor control point of view.. so someone's going to need to figure out how to dribble up, jump max (45-50), and still transition into the trick attempt to try and land it.

dexton4 is actually someone who does that alot.. he has the right mindset but he's probably too short/too small of a wingspan. He's someone that more dunkers need to learn from; he's able to separate the dunk attempt from the max vert. More dunkers need to figure out how to do that, it's a "new skill" as far as i'm concerned, and it'll definitely advance the dunk game even further once more athletes learn to really separate the two components & then merge them back together in the air to complete the attempt.

athletes like t-dub, reemix, and golden child are also guys who can do that.. dexton just does it on possibly another level, because he actually doesn't care about dunking it most of the time, it seems. He's just a nutcase who loves flying.. that's a good mentality.



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Yeah Jonathan Clark does fit most of these categories and is sort of close to pulling it off, but not really.

I think he still does lack a bit of base strength and might be a bit too upper body heavy. I don't know about his wingspan, flexibility, or ability to palm/control the bball.

I'm not saying a white person can't pull this off, or asian for that matter lol, so long as they can really leap in the high 40s ON A DUNK attempt and have the wingspan/flexibility/coordination etc, but statistically speaking, there is a higher ratio of people of West AFrican descent that fit these categories than other races.

It's not a coincidence that the top sprinters in the world year after year are all those that are of direct West African descent.

it's also not a coincidence that now some of the best jumpers/dunkers in the world are white.. when you shatter stereotypes, more will follow. When I see "white men can't jump" in YT comments now it's so cringe worthy.. I used to think it was true when I was younger. Obviously now I know it's complete bullshit.

And beyond that, top speed sprinting is a "culture" in Jamaica, just like long distance running is a culture in Kenya ... Both are
 "more African", but they both excel at different events. How many Kenyan sprinters do you see? How many Jamaican long distance runners do you see? Culture is more of an influence than anything else. America is incredible because of it's diversity, imagine if everyone in America cared about one sport, event, etc? Imagine if everyone in Iceland cared about marathon running like the Kenyans? Surely you'd see more Icelandic marathon runners, but instead they are into strength events & skiing, skating events, sprint racing on ice skates etc.

Culture is the #1 factor. If you have a culture around an event/sport, you'll have way more competition, and a bigger pool of people to select the best from.
Title: Re: Double EastBay on 10ft rim is definitely Doable
Post by: fast does lie on October 06, 2017, 03:32:26 pm
yeah culture is important, but i wouldn't say it is #1. I'd go with #1 training #2 genetics #3 culture for more athletic based sports than skill based.

For skill and team based sports like soccer, bball, baseball, yeah culture matters a bit more.

I mean the Chinese have a sample of 1.3+ billion people and they want to win in every category, and train kids full time that have the interests, but they can never even qualify for something like the 100m.

However they do great in swimming, gymnastics, weightlifting at the lower classes, and many other sports, but 100m dash, long jump, etc they simply cannot produce a winner. It's not that they don't have hardwork, the tools, the culture, it comes down to genetics here.

yeah that James White guy might've been able to pull it off if he just focused on dunking, but he was a pro player. I don't know about Tdub because it's really hard for smaller guys to pull it off because 1) smaller hands 2) shorter legs...... u really need to be able to palm the ball well to move it fast in the air and also have the adequate space under your legs to do it quick.
Title: Re: Double EastBay on 10ft rim is definitely Doable
Post by: adarqui on October 06, 2017, 04:04:59 pm
yeah culture is important, but i wouldn't say it is #1. I'd go with #1 training #2 genetics #3 culture for more athletic based sports than skill based.

For skill and team based sports like soccer, bball, baseball, yeah culture matters a bit more.

I mean the Chinese have a sample of 1.3+ billion people and they want to win in every category, and train kids full time that have the interests, but they can never even qualify for something like the 100m.

However they do great in swimming, gymnastics, weightlifting at the lower classes, and many other sports, but 100m dash, long jump, etc they simply cannot produce a winner. It's not that they don't have hardwork, the tools, the culture, it comes down to genetics here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K80ZSLygsYo

9.99 speed .. hard to produce a winner when 100m sprinting & track in general isn't as popular in China, as it is in Jamaica for example.

China has a big pool to pick from, but it's not in their culture. Jamaican kids are sprinting shortly after they can crawl, and they see their parents sprinting as they are growing up, competitive sprinters are rock stars in Jamaica.

China has had several impressive athletes in short sprints, and the hurdle variations.

Chinese long jumper gets 3rd in long jump @ the 2015 world championships:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0ok_XFmLOU

https://www.iaaf.org/athletes/pr-of-china/jianan-wang-270455

China's system also "screens and molds athletes from a young age" .. so someone wanting to be a long jumper, might be "forced" to be a triple jumper, or some other event. That's a big difference between the US & China. Some of those olympic lifters or gymnasts might have actually wanted to be sprinters, and who knows how that would have turned out.

Not sure if, when you say they can't compete or produce a winner or qualify, if you know or not that they have athletes who are competitive in those events.

You mentioned "it comes down to genetics", well yes it does.. but in every population, these genetics exist. Whether or not they are developed from childhood, around others with similar genetics to push them, with national pride, seeing others do what you want to do, with a very strong belief system, is another story. It takes time to build a culture around that.

If Usain Bolt was raised in China for whatever reason, there's a high probability that we would never know about him, especially not in sprinting.

Also remember, diet is also very cultural .. so someone like Usain would be eating alot differently if he grew up in China, Kenya, or America for example. These things also shape athleticism, in combination with all of the other stuff mentioned, as they grow up.

It's just way more complex than "oh genetics".

Imagine Kenyan's with "great genetics" born in the US, focusing on running as they grow up .. would they be as successful, with all of the access to fast food, cheap garbage food, lack of people around them who are as fast or faster, lack of people around them who really know how to run, and all of the external forces making them feel "inadequate" for being so skinny and light? I seriously doubt it.

Also you put "training" as #1, but training is shaped heavily by culture. For example, Kenyan runners dominate long distance but don't lift weights. Americans think weights solve everything, even distance running. Kenyans are proud of being light & thin. Americans skinny shame & fat shame everyone, got to bulk up bro. Those cultural specific ideologies shape training, eating, body image, belief, goals, etc.

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yeah that James White guy might've been able to pull it off if he just focused on dunking, but he was a pro player. I don't know about Tdub because it's really hard for smaller guys to pull it off because 1) smaller hands 2) shorter legs...... u really need to be able to palm the ball well to move it fast in the air and also have the adequate space under your legs to do it quick.
Title: Re: Double EastBay on 10ft rim is definitely Doable
Post by: adarqui on October 06, 2017, 04:53:35 pm
This might be a good example.

Many people attribute an additional "component of success" for Kenyan distance runners & Jamaican sprinters (I use them alot because they are often thought of as genetically special), to running & sprinting barefoot as children and even young adults. Add to that, the fact that there are cultures around running in these countries, and that is alot of barefoot running from a very young age. In addition, you usually hear them talk about running to and from school, barefoot. There is a study which shows that Kenyan runners use better "barefoot mechanics" while in shoes, than other runners.

Now think about what the rest of the world tries to do by emulating that .. As grown adults, we become obsessed with running barefoot and try to incorporate it into our training, even creating "shoes" for it (lmfao).

Many in Kenya & Jamaica do it out of necessity. People in America (and probably China) have more access to appropriate footwear for running. Or, instead of wearing something more appropriate, they do what I did growing up, and ran in big heavy basketball shoes..

Finally, in America & China, if you do have parents who are aware of the potential benefits of learning proper mechanics through barefoot running/sprinting at a young age, they may try and utilize this as a training effect for their child. However, it's not distributed across an entire population like Kenya or Jamaica. So even though you try to give your child an advantage, he or she may simply not respond as good as another child in another village/city.

Alot of athletes from less developed countries who perform so well, are often lumped into "the genetics pool". Well beyond genetics, there's culture AND many of them do it for survival, to try and make a living, become successful, and there's so much competition around them at every age & level of their development etc.

And to add to all of that, for Kenyans, they also run at altitude their entire life. lmao. Want to get way faster, go live in Kenya and run there for years, surrounded by hundreds of people who run 2x/day, like Jake Robertson: instagram.com/jakehtbz/

Imagine if you had to jump 35" to survive. Imagine if everyone around you made a decent living if they jumped 35" from an SVJ, and you saw this from a young age. You really think you'd be jumping < 35"?

TEAM - Together Everyone Achieves More

That's a slogan lots of sports teams use .. that's exactly what happens when something is cultural.
Title: Re: Double EastBay on 10ft rim is definitely Doable
Post by: adarqui on October 06, 2017, 05:05:40 pm
anyway i'll stop "defending" it.. but I can't NOT defend it, when it's brought up. It's one of the oldest excuses in the book, to simply say, oh you must be born here or have x skin color. It's also often used as a way to diminish the hard work put in by athletes, by simply saying for example, "he can run fast or jump high because he's black", and on the flip side there's the old "he's smart because he's white" etc. Not saying you are doing that, just saying i've seen/heard it too many times; it also gets passed down & around.

So back to double eastbay, obviously genetics are important, but those genetics are simply the genes that give one more fast twitch fibers, or longer tendons, or a longer wingspan, or more height.. Even with all of that, there are outliers, so as long as someone can get up crazy high, doesn't matter what's actually going on in the minutia, all that matters is that they can get up insanely high & pull off the trick. Usain Bolt was always thought to be too tall for 100m, yet he became the greatest 100m sprinter of all time. 12+ years ago, coaches were laughing at the idea of someone that tall being able to compete in the 100m, so that's why I don't discount someone like T-DUB, even though he's 5'9, who can get up legit 50+ in his prime.

if one sticks to the actual numbers needed, ie all of the stuff you listed except for "West African Descent / race", then there's nothing to defend .. only substance to debate. Much easier thread.

Do you not agree with that btw (the bolded statement)? Just wondering. I imagine you do, but just curious.

peace
Title: Re: Double EastBay on 10ft rim is definitely Doable
Post by: Mutumbo000 on October 07, 2017, 12:11:07 am
Genetics>Training

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aKM_OY14AU

Edit- Depending on the sport just culture is nowhere near enough. Take the Philippines for example. They are obsessed with basketball and it is pretty much their national sport. How many Filo players do you see in the NBA? How many Filo players even play in decent professional leagues? Not many.

I know you can list players <6 foot that played in the NBA but the average height in NBA is 6'8 and in most decent leagues throughout the world e.g. NBL, Euro league, CBA etc. they all have a similar average height of around 6'7-6'8. The only sports where training>genetics are skill based sports like golf, tennis etc. imo
Title: Re: Double EastBay on 10ft rim is definitely Doable
Post by: adarqui on October 07, 2017, 08:26:51 am
Training > Genetics in skill based sports .. genetics just give people extra advantages, but not enough to overcome training.

Basketball is a skill based sport.

Culture > Genetics in every sport/event, because culture allows a population to more easily find & develop people with incredible genetic advantages.

Genetics>Training

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aKM_OY14AU

Edit- Depending on the sport just culture is nowhere near enough. Take the Philippines for example. They are obsessed with basketball and it is pretty much their national sport. How many Filo players do you see in the NBA? How many Filo players even play in decent professional leagues? Not many.

Not sure why you linked that video? lmao.. Someone saying, "he's simply not big enough to play in the league", when the kid is 5'11", is not going to convince me of anything.. Correction: he's simply not good enough to play in the league. He could be a child prodigy all he wants, but he wasn't a high school prodigy, nor a college prodigy, and that's when it matters. It looks like he really wants to get into the league though, so maybe he ends up playing in the NBDL at some point and then gets called up.. then what, will they fix the video and say "well he was big enough apparently". lol.

As for Philipinos, I think that's more of a cultural problem. What if more philipinos grew up playing bball in the US? It's their "national sport" now, but it's still new to them. I don't follow Philipino basketball, but do they have some impressive leagues? Are they sending players over to the US/colleges? Or are they just doing everything in house? If they are "all short", then shouldn't they have one of the biggest pools of point guards on the planet? Should be tons of skilled point guards ... I doubt that's the case. I bet many of them grow up playing center, forward, etc at shorter heights. Jamaica can make Hockey their national sport out of nowhere, have everyone playing it, but they won't get anywhere for a long time.

Also, remember when Argentina beat the US in the olympics? Did those Argentinean players have better genetics than than their US opposition?

The league has been steadily bringing in players from Europe and all over the world for several years now. The league is becoming "de-americanified", because there's so many good players all over the world now. That's the result of basketball becoming global, and a bigger pool of people (who bust their ass) to pick from.

Finally, "Mugsy Bogues" and "Earl Boykins" come to mind. It's harder to make it into the league if you're short, which philipinos are shorter on average, but it's absolutely not a restriction. Mugsy is basically a midget and was a dominant force. There's no way someone of similar size, from another country, couldn't emulate his game.

Also one of the best rebounders in the league was Barkley, what was he 6'5? That's like shooting guard height.

I'm just sitting here imagining a Steve Kerr-like philipino player, without much "impressive athleticism" or an impressive "body" based on genetics, but can simply shoot the lights out at a crazy high percentage from anywhere on the court. lol.

btw, there's been a few American/Filipino players in the NBA.

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I know you can list players <6 foot that played in the NBA but the average height in NBA is 6'8 and in most decent leagues throughout the world e.g. NBL, Euro league, CBA etc. they all have a similar average height of around 6'7-6'8. The only sports where training>genetics are skill based sports like golf, tennis etc. imo

Basketball is a skill based sport... some positions require different (arguably less) skills and more height/bulk. If people from some country are all < 6' for some reason, they still have a position in the NBA that has people that height, ie point guards.

If you base it on height, then "there's only been a few players under 5'6 to make it to the NBA & they come from America", that pool is so small that it makes sense it would be harder to join, regardless of country. The pool is bigger for < 6', but still pretty small. The pool for 6'+ is huge, and look what's happening over time, players from all sorts of countries are finding their way into the league and are successful.

The golf/tennis thing is funny though.. pretty much every sport you will list, including basketball, is considered a skill sport. Basketball is definitely less favorable to short people, so if someone is short they have a better chance at making it in other skill sports, but it isn't a fact that they won't be able to make it into the league just because of their height/wing span. Also, you don't see many short people in Tennis or Golf either..

Also just to clarify, I never said just because someone trains hard or does the right training, they will be successful. Incase anyone is thinking that's my stance. I'm saying these people need to also be surrounded by serious competition, ie a culture that supports that event/sport, year after year, and just like species evolution, you get sports evolution. It definitely takes time. Even then, this person might not make it, but their teammate might, or their grandkids might when the competition within their country has evolved more.
Title: Re: Double EastBay on 10ft rim is definitely Doable
Post by: Mutumbo000 on October 07, 2017, 08:46:18 am
Of course basketball is a skill based sport but someone that is 7'0 tall will always have a huge advantage over someone that is 5'6 predominantly on the fact that there are a lot less 70 people on the planet than 5'6 people.
Title: Re: Double EastBay on 10ft rim is definitely Doable
Post by: adarqui on October 07, 2017, 08:58:53 am
Of course basketball is a skill based sport but someone that is 7'0 tall will always have a huge advantage over someone that is 5'6 predominantly on the fact that there are a lot less 70 people on the planet than 5'6 people.

right but you also said:

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The only sports where training>genetics are skill based sports like golf, tennis etc. imo

so someone 5'6 from the philipines should be able to get into the league if he has Mugsy Bogues like skill, no?

again I think throwing genetics into all of this, causes everything to get murky. Sure being taller gives you a better chance of doing something in basketball, it's most often an advantage in a "taller sport". There's also plenty of incredible goofy uncoordinated people who probably wish they were a bit shorter too, that couldn't do anything in basketball, i've seen plenty of them growing up.

fixed:

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The only sports where training>genetics are skill based sports like golf, tennis, basketball, futbol, cricket, hockey, baseball, rugby, ping pong, etc. imo

:ninja:

for all of those sports, training > genetics, but some genetic factors do provide advantages / disadvantages, but it's not a given.

peace
Title: Re: Double EastBay on 10ft rim is definitely Doable
Post by: fast does lie on October 07, 2017, 01:17:57 pm
Come on Adarq, 13 billion people (actually 15 billion because the census in china is corrupt/innaccurate)

And you finally found 1 gem to try to support your claim that culture is the #1 factor, which just isn't true.

The people that train for athletics in China, similarly to those that "start running in Jamaica right out the woom", are kids that state they love a certain sport at the age of 3, and put into sports schools right off the bat.

it's really genetics /training the #1 factor.....

USA is a basketball culture, but the NBA is dominated by AFrican Americans, it's just a FACT. It's not stereotyping at all. 

Even though African Americans only account for roughly 10-13% of the population.

You're telling me white people just aren't into basketball, hence the NBA is like 90% people of direct West African descent/lineage?

Yeah Mutomboo, lol at philippines, they do love bball down there hahaha, but they're just at such a disadvantage due to their genetics lol, also it's true, they don't train as optimal as USA people or have great BBALL minds as USA trainers/coaches etc....
Title: Re: Double EastBay on 10ft rim is definitely Doable
Post by: fast does lie on October 07, 2017, 01:31:18 pm
lol, have you guys seen professional bball in the philippines? I watched it before and it was hilarious.

It was like I was watching Asian Allstar bball league in the US. I'm asian btw.

Especially the teams without overseas black players.... was like watching the China Town all star showcase lol

(i'm part chinese btw) just in case adarq or lbss calls me "YOU RACIST"

Title: Re: Double EastBay on 10ft rim is definitely Doable
Post by: adarqui on October 07, 2017, 01:54:16 pm
Come on Adarq, 13 billion people (actually 15 billion because the census in china is corrupt/innaccurate)

And you finally found 1 gem to try to support your claim that culture is the #1 factor, which just isn't true.

I never stated that "gem" supports my culture claim. I was refuting your incorrect claim. Anyway, it's how things begin.. one guy in a country proves it can be done, then others realize they can do it too, especially children..........

Just like Usain Bolt proved to everyone a tall 100m sprinter can become the best.

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The people that train for athletics in China, similarly to those that "start running in Jamaica right out the woom", are kids that state they love a certain sport at the age of 3, and put into sports schools right off the bat.

it's really genetics /training the #1 factor.....

Not all of them. Many of those kids are guided into specific athletic disciplines based on testing/screening that's performed, with kickbacks (money) to the parents, and the potential for a better life.

Even if they were 3 year old kids who loved "olympic weightlifting & olympic diving" (LMFAO, do you recognize how ridiculous that sounds), it's not certain that they wouldn't have been better left to develop more naturally, and realize they actually love sprinting. Those 3 year old "phenoms", don't have Chinese sprinters as role models.

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USA is a basketball culture, but the NBA is dominated by AFrican Americans, it's just a FACT. It's not stereotyping at all.

but pretty much all of the europeans entering the league are white? Why aren't the non-US players entering the league, all black, from African countries, or just black people from mixed/mostly white countries?

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Even though African Americans only account for roughly 10-13% of the population.

You're telling me white people just aren't into basketball, hence the NBA is like 90% people of direct West African descent/lineage?

I see plenty of white people in the league, obviously nowhere near black, but could that be attributed more towards where african americans grow up? how sports is basically the #1 option in most of these areas, not education?

Parents who let their kids play sports all day, put them in leagues, idolize sports stars, instead of forcing them to come inside and study, regardless of color, will have more athletic children. That's a sad fact of where many athletes grow up, low income areas, low education areas, emphasis on sports & competition, not education.

Have you ever been to a "mostly white town/city" in the US and watched their children/sports leagues? When I grew up in the area, it was mostly white here, no tackle football, only flag football. Now a large percentage of the population is black and guess what, tackle football and it's become a massive culture down here, and it's mostly black people playing it.

So, would I have had any chance at football growing up in this mostly white/elderly area at the time? Or would I have more of a chance growing up now, with tackle football leagues and tons of children whose family members/parents/etc have also played, perhaps at the collegiate and NFL levels as well?

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Yeah Mutomboo, lol at philippines, they do love bball down there hahaha, but they're just at such a disadvantage due to their genetics lol, also it's true, they don't train as optimal as USA people or have great BBALL minds as USA trainers/coaches etc....

They probably have people < 6' being trained to play Center, Forward, etc.



Where'd you get your 90% number from? Your ass? It's probably a pretty close guess though. This is from something on wikipedia:

"the NBA in 2015 was composed of 74.4 percent black players, 23.3 percent white players, 1.8 percent Latino players, and 0.2 percent Asian players."



Clarify one thing for me though.. If a white player dominates in the NBA, what's it attributable to? Genetics? But how can it be attributable to genetics if, he's not of "West African Descent and/or not black" (even though we all descend from Africa)?

So what makes a white NBA player successful, or more successful, than his genetically superior black colleagues?

Btw, this is the argument racists always end up at: for whites, it's skill and hard work. For blacks, ok they maybe work hard but it's all genetics. Their genetics codify the ability to put a ball through a hoop from 30+ feet away @ ~40+ % accuracy.

How come there's no black NFL quarterbacks??? Ever heard that one? Remember when that was a "thing" 15 years ago? What happened to that theory? DESTROYED. The theory was based on the "fact" that blacks weren't as smart/capable in such a position, they don't have the "intelligence genetics" to be able to play QB. Well, one after the other, black QB's started to emerge, more & more young black children began to emulate Warren Moon & Randal Cunningham, and now we have black superstar QB's who can play just as good as any white QB.

smh.. kinda sad tbh.

These discussions always suck.

BTW FDL, you'll never reach 40" SVJ because of your genetics. Might as well quit now, you have no chance. Someone of West African Descent can do it easily, but you never will.......... :( If you fail to reach 40" SVJ, it could be attributable to genetics, but it would be mostly attributable to training, and not developing such qualities (to give you more of a chance later on in life) while you were a young child/young teen/young adult etc.

You can reach 40" SVJ though, you know why? All you have to hit is 2.5-3xBW squat while being ~6-8% body fat, and jumping over 100,000 times.. None of those components are constrained to being "black". They are constrained to putting in the proper work, and hitting the right numbers.

pc
Title: Re: Double EastBay on 10ft rim is definitely Doable
Post by: fast does lie on October 07, 2017, 02:10:19 pm
LMFAOOOO hahahahahahaha hwahahahahah

All i'm saying is that YOU CAN'T DENY THE FACT THAT GENETICS PLAYS A BIG ROLE IN ATHLETICS.

If I were to say that African Americans skin pigments, in general, is less likely to get sunburned than a caucasian, am I still being racist?  It's a FACT, not racism at all. If I were to say no african americans get sunburned, and all whites get sunburned, then that be a stereotype/racism etc wthaever u want to call it.

I can't believe someone as smart as you are, is being like this....
Title: Re: Double EastBay on 10ft rim is definitely Doable
Post by: fast does lie on October 07, 2017, 02:23:50 pm
If I were to say "German Shepards, in general, have stronger bites than Cocker Spaniels" would I be a dog racist?

If I were to say "All german shepards have stronger bites than cocker spaniels" than I may be stereotyping.

Sure there has to be certain cocker spaniels out there that have stronger bites than certain German Shepards, but those are obv outliers.
Title: Re: Double EastBay on 10ft rim is definitely Doable
Post by: adarqui on October 07, 2017, 02:33:10 pm
LMFAOOOO hahahahahahaha hwahahahahah

All i'm saying is that YOU CAN'T DENY THE FACT THAT GENETICS PLAYS A BIG ROLE IN ATHLETICS.

I don't think you read what I type, I never said genetics don't play a role .. I read what you type though.

Quote
If I were to say that African Americans skin pigments, in general, is less likely to get sunburned than a caucasian, am I still being racist?  It's a FACT, not racism at all. If I were to say no african americans get sunburned, and all whites get sunburned, then that be a stereotype/racism etc wthaever u want to call it.

I can't believe someone as smart as you are, is being like this....

We're actually making progress here, believe it or not.

You just identified a genetic factor in black people, melanin, which helps prevent sunburn - but doesn't actually entirely prevent sun burn. Black people also have a significantly higher risk of getting melanoma's, apparently. So burn less, but more risk for skin cancer.

So you identified an EXACT genetic trait responsible for addressing some kind of effect.

Now, please provide me the genetic trait(s) responsible for putting a ball through a hoop. If you list "melanin", i'll fall over and die. Every trait you will try to list, will not be anything specific to people with melanin in their skin.

Apparently simply being "of West African Descent" or having melanin in skin, makes people better at putting a ball in a hoop and bouncing it with coordination on the floor. Got it. Thanks!

I need a melanin injection.
Title: Re: Double EastBay on 10ft rim is definitely Doable
Post by: fast does lie on October 07, 2017, 02:41:04 pm
exactly, it's more complicated than a specific trait.... brb going to go train....
Title: Re: Double EastBay on 10ft rim is definitely Doable
Post by: adarqui on October 07, 2017, 02:44:34 pm
If I were to say "German Shepards, in general, have stronger bites than Cocker Spaniels" would I be a dog racist?

If I were to say "All german shepards have stronger bites than cocker spaniels" than I may be stereotyping.

Sure there has to be certain cocker spaniels out there that have stronger bites than certain German Shepards, but those are obv outliers.

Your golden nugget basket is getting heavier.

The problem (one of many) with your analogy is, these dogs are of completely different structure (size/weight), and you're using a strength measurement.

If you were comparing the bite strength of black cocker spaniels to white cocker spaniels, that'd resemble more of what you're doing with humans.
Title: Re: Double EastBay on 10ft rim is definitely Doable
Post by: adarqui on October 07, 2017, 02:46:25 pm
exactly, it's more complicated than a specific trait.... brb going to go train....

if it's more complicated than a specific trait or traits, then you're basically agreeing that it's more complicated than genetics, which would mean you're starting to agree more with me that culture & training are probably more important. :ninja:

have a good session.
Title: Re: Double EastBay on 10ft rim is definitely Doable
Post by: seifullaah73 on October 07, 2017, 04:48:14 pm
A few interesting articles I found.

Summary: genetic is an advantage, but without training it's nothing. Culture provides the encouragement to get these people with an genetic advantage to get into that sport as adarq was stating. If Jamaica was not supporting sprinters, jamaica would be like any other country and not famous for sprinting.

Quote
No athlete became great because he/she was born with certain genes. Every great athlete put in their share of hours in the gym. Hard work is a necessary component of being a good athlete.

http://athleteculture.com/training/athletic-science-genetics-vs-effort/

Genetic and Culture
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-science-imagination/201305/genes-affect-culture-culture-affects-genes

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/to-what-extent-does-genetic-make-up-contribute-to-athletic-performance-1.1271394

Good reads.
Title: Re: Double EastBay on 10ft rim is definitely Doable
Post by: Mutumbo000 on October 07, 2017, 05:51:51 pm
exactly, it's more complicated than a specific trait.... brb going to go train....

if it's more complicated than a specific trait or traits, then you're basically agreeing that it's more complicated than genetics, which would mean you're starting to agree more with me that culture & training are probably more important. :ninja:

have a good session.

Agreed.

When I was looking up Mugsby Bogues (he was before my time) I came across this article about the rapper Master P almost making the NBA at 31.
http://www.complex.com/sports/2015/08/master-p-nba-career-oral-history

"Culled from interviews with over a dozen former colleagues, coaches, and executives, here is the scouting report on Percy Miller: Master P could shoot. He could spot-up or shoot off the dribble. If a defender went under a screen or rotated off him to double-team the post, P could hit the open jumper. He didn’t have the quickest release, and his range was limited to 20 feet with a hand in his face, but he could shoot. He had adequate ball-handling skills, a decent handle. When driving to the hoop, he didn’t rely on athleticism. He had a sneaky old-man game similar to Andre Miller, a mix of guile and pump fakes that allowed him to get his shot off. He was a big guy—a sturdy 6’3”—who knew how to use his body. He was also fit and had surprising strength and stamina. Above all, P was a great competitor who played with confidence—he was far from humble. Master P believed he belonged in the NBA.

As for his weaknesses, P lacked explosiveness. He was a good athlete, he just wasn’t an NBA athlete. For all his craftiness, finishing at the rim was a challenge. He wasn’t dunking on anybody. He was also slow for a guard, which led to trouble on defense; you can’t hide on that end of the floor in the NBA. More than anything, he lacked fundamentals, the result of playing mostly pick-up ball in recent years. He struggled reading screens, and coming off screens. He didn’t understand proper spacing or how to find the right shot on offense—little things that seem inconsequential but are foundations of the game".
Title: Re: Double EastBay on 10ft rim is definitely Doable
Post by: fast does lie on October 07, 2017, 06:30:57 pm
Yes, but all of the specific traits working in unison gives one an advantage in the game of basketball.

It all depends though. If my team had Shaq, Anthony Davis, and Kevin Durant, the need for say a Karl Anthony Towns is greatly diminished.  The need for a Jeremy Lin is much higher now, even though Karl Anthony Towns is a much bigger assett than Jeremy Lin (KAT can shoot anywhere from point blank to deep 3s with accuracy and almost led the league in points in the paint, he also won the NBA skills challenge as a 7fter)
Title: Re: Double EastBay on 10ft rim is definitely Doable
Post by: fast does lie on October 07, 2017, 06:46:59 pm
exactly, it's more complicated than a specific trait.... brb going to go train....

if it's more complicated than a specific trait or traits, then you're basically agreeing that it's more complicated than genetics, which would mean you're starting to agree more with me that culture & training are probably more important. :ninja:

have a good session.

Agreed.

When I was looking up Mugsby Bogues (he was before my time) I came across this article about the rapper Master P almost making the NBA at 31.
http://www.complex.com/sports/2015/08/master-p-nba-career-oral-history

"Culled from interviews with over a dozen former colleagues, coaches, and executives, here is the scouting report on Percy Miller: Master P could shoot. He could spot-up or shoot off the dribble. If a defender went under a screen or rotated off him to double-team the post, P could hit the open jumper. He didn’t have the quickest release, and his range was limited to 20 feet with a hand in his face, but he could shoot. He had adequate ball-handling skills, a decent handle. When driving to the hoop, he didn’t rely on athleticism. He had a sneaky old-man game similar to Andre Miller, a mix of guile and pump fakes that allowed him to get his shot off. He was a big guy—a sturdy 6’3”—who knew how to use his body. He was also fit and had surprising strength and stamina. Above all, P was a great competitor who played with confidence—he was far from humble. Master P believed he belonged in the NBA.

As for his weaknesses, P lacked explosiveness. He was a good athlete, he just wasn’t an NBA athlete. For all his craftiness, finishing at the rim was a challenge. He wasn’t dunking on anybody. He was also slow for a guard, which led to trouble on defense; you can’t hide on that end of the floor in the NBA. More than anything, he lacked fundamentals, the result of playing mostly pick-up ball in recent years. He struggled reading screens, and coming off screens. He didn’t understand proper spacing or how to find the right shot on offense—little things that seem inconsequential but are foundations of the game".

Lol, at least Master P even got a chance to be analyzed by NBA scouts. There are probably thousands of players that are better than Master P, have much better bball resume, experience, the whole 9 yards, that scouts wouldn't even look bother looking at.

Fame and publicity can get you pretty far.
Title: Re: Double EastBay on 10ft rim is definitely Doable
Post by: Mutumbo000 on October 07, 2017, 07:11:20 pm
exactly, it's more complicated than a specific trait.... brb going to go train....

if it's more complicated than a specific trait or traits, then you're basically agreeing that it's more complicated than genetics, which would mean you're starting to agree more with me that culture & training are probably more important. :ninja:

have a good session.

Agreed.

When I was looking up Mugsby Bogues (he was before my time) I came across this article about the rapper Master P almost making the NBA at 31.
http://www.complex.com/sports/2015/08/master-p-nba-career-oral-history

"Culled from interviews with over a dozen former colleagues, coaches, and executives, here is the scouting report on Percy Miller: Master P could shoot. He could spot-up or shoot off the dribble. If a defender went under a screen or rotated off him to double-team the post, P could hit the open jumper. He didn’t have the quickest release, and his range was limited to 20 feet with a hand in his face, but he could shoot. He had adequate ball-handling skills, a decent handle. When driving to the hoop, he didn’t rely on athleticism. He had a sneaky old-man game similar to Andre Miller, a mix of guile and pump fakes that allowed him to get his shot off. He was a big guy—a sturdy 6’3”—who knew how to use his body. He was also fit and had surprising strength and stamina. Above all, P was a great competitor who played with confidence—he was far from humble. Master P believed he belonged in the NBA.

As for his weaknesses, P lacked explosiveness. He was a good athlete, he just wasn’t an NBA athlete. For all his craftiness, finishing at the rim was a challenge. He wasn’t dunking on anybody. He was also slow for a guard, which led to trouble on defense; you can’t hide on that end of the floor in the NBA. More than anything, he lacked fundamentals, the result of playing mostly pick-up ball in recent years. He struggled reading screens, and coming off screens. He didn’t understand proper spacing or how to find the right shot on offense—little things that seem inconsequential but are foundations of the game".

Lol, at least Master P even got a chance to be analyzed by NBA scouts. There are probably thousands of players that are better than Master P, have much better bball resume, experience, the whole 9 yards, that scouts wouldn't even look bother looking at.

Fame and publicity can get you pretty far.

Exactly the NBA is a business at the end of the day so anything that can boost their publicity and draw more attention to their product will get a look in.

From all reports Mugsy Bogues was an incredible athlete especially with his speed and agility. I still think he'd be a defensive liability though simply for the fact that taller PG's could shoot over him all day due to superior length. If he only played a season in the NBA I'd say it was a publicity stunt but he had a good career so it would be unfair to write him off like that.
Title: Re: Double EastBay on 10ft rim is definitely Doable
Post by: Mutumbo000 on October 07, 2017, 07:18:15 pm
Yes, but all of the specific traits working in unison gives one an advantage in the game of basketball.

It all depends though. If my team had Shaq, Anthony Davis, and Kevin Durant, the need for say a Karl Anthony Towns is greatly diminished.  The need for a Jeremy Lin is much higher now, even though Karl Anthony Towns is a much bigger assett than Jeremy Lin (KAT can shoot anywhere from point blank to deep 3s with accuracy and almost led the league in points in the paint, he also won the NBA skills challenge as a 7fter)

All else being equal height is always an advantage for basketball. 2 players same skill, same shooting %, same style one is 5'11 the other is 6'4 teams will always pick the 6'4 guy all day. It's just the way it is. Like in that video I posted before people use Steph Curry as an example of someone with amazing skill and not the greatest athleticism but he's still a great athlete maybe just not compared to  other NBA athletes and he is still 6'3, which is hardly 'short'.
Title: Re: Double EastBay on 10ft rim is definitely Doable
Post by: fast does lie on October 07, 2017, 07:32:03 pm
Yes, but all of the specific traits working in unison gives one an advantage in the game of basketball.

It all depends though. If my team had Shaq, Anthony Davis, and Kevin Durant, the need for say a Karl Anthony Towns is greatly diminished.  The need for a Jeremy Lin is much higher now, even though Karl Anthony Towns is a much bigger assett than Jeremy Lin (KAT can shoot anywhere from point blank to deep 3s with accuracy and almost led the league in points in the paint, he also won the NBA skills challenge as a 7fter)

All else being equal height is always an advantage for basketball. 2 players same skill, same shooting %, same style one is 5'11 the other is 6'4 teams will always pick the 6'4 guy all day. It's just the way it is. Like in that video I posted before people use Steph Curry as an example of someone with amazing skill and not the greatest athleticism but he's still a great athlete maybe just not compared to  other NBA athletes and he is still 6'3, which is hardly 'short'.

Yeah definitely, furthermore wingspan/reach is an even more important factor than height, especially on the defensive end.
Title: Re: Double EastBay on 10ft rim is definitely Doable
Post by: Mutumbo000 on October 07, 2017, 07:41:53 pm
Of course basketball is a skill based sport but someone that is 7'0 tall will always have a huge advantage over someone that is 5'6 predominantly on the fact that there are a lot less 70 people on the planet than 5'6 people.

right but you also said:

Quote
The only sports where training>genetics are skill based sports like golf, tennis etc. imo

so someone 5'6 from the philipines should be able to get into the league if he has Mugsy Bogues like skill, no?

again I think throwing genetics into all of this, causes everything to get murky. Sure being taller gives you a better chance of doing something in basketball, it's most often an advantage in a "taller sport". There's also plenty of incredible goofy uncoordinated people who probably wish they were a bit shorter too, that couldn't do anything in basketball, i've seen plenty of them growing up.

fixed:

Quote
The only sports where training>genetics are skill based sports like golf, tennis, basketball, futbol, cricket, hockey, baseball, rugby, ping pong, etc. imo

:ninja:

for all of those sports, training > genetics, but some genetic factors do provide advantages / disadvantages, but it's not a given.

peace

I largely agree. You need to train to take advantage of the genetics in the first place.

We might agree to disagree but I still believe that 80% of champions are born and not made. Take rugby. With rugby it does take skill but another huge factor is size and that's a major contributor as to why rugby is increasingly becoming dominated by Polynesians who make up a huge presence in professional leagues. Obviously there's also cultural aspects to it as well but having natural size and power is a huge advantage in the sport. Personally I just don't have the frame or the genetics to be big naturally and while fairly fast I don't have the speed to be elite and make up for my shortcomings in size. Now people would say but you don't eat properly or train properly etc. but the fact is even at 26 years old now I have friends that were the same size as me when they were 14!!!
Title: Re: Double EastBay on 10ft rim is definitely Doable
Post by: fast does lie on October 07, 2017, 09:32:18 pm
Quote
With rugby it does take skill but another huge factor is size and that's a major contributor as to why rugby is increasingly becoming dominated by Polynesians who make up a huge presence in professional leagues.

I wonder how the genetic trait was able to be passed on with the Samoans.... cause many other Islanders who don't have that trait, like the Philippines, or japan ,etc.



Title: Re: Double EastBay on 10ft rim is definitely Doable
Post by: Mutumbo000 on October 07, 2017, 09:52:20 pm
Quote
With rugby it does take skill but another huge factor is size and that's a major contributor as to why rugby is increasingly becoming dominated by Polynesians who make up a huge presence in professional leagues.

I wonder how the genetic trait was able to be passed on with the Samoans.... cause many other Islanders who don't have that trait, like the Philippines, or japan ,etc.

Its not just Samoans it's Tongans, Cook Islanders and to a lesser extent Maoris. I know there are plenty of massive Maoris but imo Maoris tend to be smaller than Islanders. My partner is from the Cook Islands so hopefully my son inherits her genetics (I'm 5'11 and my girlfriend is 5'9 so my son should theoretically end up being at least 6'1)

I'm not sure why they are so big when I ask them they joke about eating Taro (it's a vegetable similar to a potato and tastes very bland).

Searching on google I found this:

"Pacific islanders are a surprisingly new group of people, but they are a very separate ethnic group to east-Asian peoples like Malays or Filipinos. Originally they lived on what is now Taiwan, and for some reason, around about 1000 BC, these Taiwanese aborigines left Asia and headed to Polynesia. If you've seen a map, you can see how far New Zealand is from China, and so the journey was insanely perilous. Sailing across the enormous pacific was considered dangerous to the rest of the world even when we were cruising across it in steamers and frigates, so the fact that these aborigines managed to get to Polynesia at all is fairly amazing. As such, its likely that only very strong, hardy people were able to make it to their new homes in the pacific. Furthermore, after arriving at their new homes (as late as 1300 AD in the case of New Zealand) most pacific islanders continued living tribal lifestyles which required great strength".
Title: Re: Double EastBay on 10ft rim is definitely Doable
Post by: Mutumbo000 on October 07, 2017, 09:58:01 pm
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/270288637_Body_composition_characteristics_of_elite_Australian_rugby_union_athletes_according_to_playing_position_and_ethnicity#pfa

“Polynesians are predisposed to possess physical characteristics potentially beneficial to rugby union performance”. They are heavier, have more muscular limbs and smaller proportions of body fat, and can produce “greater force in explosive movements” than players of other ethnicities. This combination of impact and agility has also been useful in other sports. A number of Tongans and Samoans have played in the National Football League, including Super Bowl winners Troy Polamalu and Haloti Ngata. One of the world’s most famous wrestlers, Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson, has a Samoan mother.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaFdvrILYPc