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« on: September 23, 2017, 04:33:29 pm »
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I've been meaning to post this for a long time, just never got around to doing it .. i'm also pulling these numbers directly out of my ass. they make some sense to me though, but this post is just for fun. I used the "half-assed intuition approach" to create this chart.

vj = SVJ or RVJ, someone specializing (jumping alot) in either.
mile = maxed out mile run

Association Chart: Men's VJ vs Mile:

50 - 3:43
49 - 3:45
48 - 3:50
46 - 3:55
44 - 4:00
42 - 4:15
40 - 4:30
38 - 4:45
36 - 5:00
34 - 5:15
32 - 5:30
30 - 5:45
28 - 6:00
26 - 6:30 "average"
24 - 7:00
22 - 7:30
20 - 8:00

alternative chart using ~15s between everything, which is pretty similar to the chart above (this chart is probably nicer, come to think of it):

50 - 3:30
48 - 3:45
46 - 4:00
44 - 4:15
42 - 4:30
40 - 4:45
38 - 5:00
36 - 5:15
34 - 5:30
32 - 5:45
30 - 6:00
28 - 6:15
26 - 6:30 "average"

So, i'll use myself as an example. My best GPS watch timed mile last year was 5:06, that would put me at an association level of a "~35 inch VJ". My best 5k last year, around the same time, GPS watch timed, was 18:12, which would put me at a "~29 inch VJ" equivalent per mile (~5:55), which makes sense because i'm using submax mile power, per mile, for 3.1 miles. So obviously there would need to be different standards for 5k, 10k etc, as the scale would shift downward (slower).

This also brings me to another thought i've had, which is why I basically created this little association/correspondence chart to begin with: it seems I can reach a ~5:06 mile alot faster than I can reach an associated ~35" VJ (RVJ). It seems that I have a much bigger ceiling for running, even at a "much older age" (5+ years), than I did with vert. This makes sense obviously, because one reason I became so obsessed with vert/dunking, was because I had never even come close growing up/early 20's, so I just wanted to do it so bad. Meanwhile, that entire time, I probably had (& maybe still have) a much better chance at reaching the ~42" vert association range, with running (~4:15 mile) etc.

Also, for an elite runner like Mo Farah:

https://www.iaaf.org/athletes/great-britain-ni/mohamed-farah-179892

Take Mo Farah for example, his fastest mile is 3:56, which is an associated VJ of ~45". His 5k PB is 12:53, which is ~4:09 per mile, with each mile at an associated VJ of ~42.X". His 10k PB is ~4:19 per mile, which is an associated VJ of ~41.X".

Finally, one of the most interesting things to me about running vs jumping, is that I can hit running paces high up on the association chart, for shorter intervals. We can't do that with VJ, unless we use a trampoline or bands, but that doesn't count. Perhaps an equivalent aid would be wind-aided running & wind-aided jumping. Wind-aided runups make sense, I tried to never go into the wind when I was dunking, always felt better with a tail wind than a head wind. Same for running when i'm able to choose. There's also the crowd/fan/race/competition factor, that applies to both running & jumping, so that could be used to stimulate higher performance per session.

So, if we can hit higher paces for shorter intervals, it could mean it's actually easier to improve running than it is to improve jumping. I mean how else do you stimulate more motor recruitment in a jump, other than wind & crowd? That's where STIM sessions/PAP/DJ's/Plyometrics comes in.

Also, the amount of reps you can put in with running vs jumping is very significant. That's one reason i've been doing lots of light/submax jumping lately, but my frequency is still way too low to properly adapt & improve, I think.

peace!

#### fast does lie

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« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2017, 05:01:26 am »
+2
I am too lazy to use my head to read thru this and too dumb to understand it real fast. cliff notes please
33yrs | 24in SVJ | >45% BF | 227LB | 5'9 | 7'5 reach | 400lb max squat paused | 5'8 wingspan | 26in RVJ

Coming back from 2 years of inactivity!

Goal: Maintain 385-405lb squat while cutting down to 165 LB

#### LBSS

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« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2017, 05:28:55 am »
+1
I am too lazy to use my head to read thru this and too dumb to understand it real fast. cliff notes please

agreed, lost me.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

sunday: run 14+ km
monday: lift
tuesday: run 10-12 km
wednesday: run 10-12 km
thursday: run 10-12 km
friday: rest
saturday: run tempo/VO2 max/speed x 6-8 km

#### Kellyb

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« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2017, 12:28:54 pm »
+2
Interesting topic. At first glance one might thing they're unrelated because one relies on explosiveness and power(fast twitch muscle) whereas the other relies on endurance but I imagine there is a pretty good correlation in a trained state due to structural characteristics. So if you have a body structure efficient enough to run a sub 5 minute mile you most definitely also have a body structure pretty efficient at getting up in the air as well.

I remember AlexV ran a study where they took a group of cross country runners and put around 6 inches on their average vert using strength movements over 6-8 weeks. I think it was for his masters thesis. But that's a pretty good increase relative to normal.

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« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2017, 04:52:18 pm »
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Interesting topic. At first glance one might thing they're unrelated because one relies on explosiveness and power(fast twitch muscle) whereas the other relies on endurance but I imagine there is a pretty good correlation in a trained state due to structural characteristics. So if you have a body structure efficient enough to run a sub 5 minute mile you most definitely also have a body structure pretty efficient at getting up in the air as well.

Yup definitely. Many of the same characteristics are there. If someone wants to jump high and run fast over distance, I definitely believe they can. Last year I got my SLRVJ back up to around 32" or so, while running quite a bit. The key was to just get out there and get my jumps in, and when I was feeling good, really get after it, max effort. I don't think they are as hard to mix as people think. Too much of one will surely impact the other, beneficially in the context of structural characteristics & detrimentally in the context of maximal gains, due to fatigue, but that's just something you can tweak as you oscillate back and forth between which one you care about the most - at the time. The good news is that tapering/deloading is great for running, and surely it would be great for jumping.

If we look at a guy like Mo Farah, his times across 400m, 800m, 1500m, 1 mile, 2 mile, 5k, 10k, half, and even marathon are mind blowing. These guys have to have some serious horse power & bounce to maintain such blazing sub-maximal paces for so long. If a guy like that was into "dunking" (for fun, vert bro), i'm sure he'd be able to get way up off one leg, especially when he deloads his run volume. The kind of horse power an elite miler, 5k, 10k, or half marathoner needs over 400m is I imagine, considerably more than most vert enthusiasts. The only missing ingredient at this point, is jump reps, IMHO.

I wanted to do a hybrid, so I could have been a good guinea pig for this kind of "experiment". When I think about resuming jumping though, I just worry more about injury & not derailing my running progress, so that seems to keep me from executing the hybrid. I did start jumping again in a basketball gym a few months ago, using a new rule: pro surface basketball gym jumping only. I felt great in there  & miss it, but who knows 8| Running has just become much more important to me, because I can compete in it. Can't compete doing the same dunk over and over

I feel like I could definitely hit 35" L-SLRVJ still AND have sub5 mile speed. Honestly, the faster I get on the track/road, the more I can feel it translate to my potential jumping ability, if I were to focus on it as well. The gains in power, reactivity, and work capacity make me feel more & more like when I was at my peak during dunking.

I was going to do some jumps yesterday at the court, but didn't.

pc!!

Quote
I remember AlexV ran a study where they took a group of cross country runners and put around 6 inches on their average vert using strength movements over 6-8 weeks. I think it was for his masters thesis. But that's a pretty good increase relative to normal.

ah I forgot about that. That was some nice info.

also, wonder how AlexV is doing?

I am too lazy to use my head to read thru this and too dumb to understand it real fast. cliff notes please

agreed, lost me.

well, it's simple IMHO. We are impressed with elite dunkers, who can drop legit 50's. We try to get to 35" RVJ, then 40', etc. So what would the equivalent be, in the context of 1 hard mile.

Our first major milestone is usually a 35" RVJ, and in mile terms, that would be a ~5:20 mile, according to my imaginary chart.

Your peak vert would have you around 4:50-4:55 for a mile. So for example, if someone was asking you what your vert was, and they had no idea how high that is, but they were a runner, you could tell them it was the equivalent of a ~4:50 mile

I'd like to get to an official <= 4:40 mile, get into that 35-39 all american standard , so the vert equivalent of that would be ~42+

My major goal is 4:2X's though .. I mean that's what i'd need to wreck everyone at these mile races. Lofty. In the context of vert, that would be ~43".

pc!!

#### Kellyb

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« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2017, 01:08:30 pm »
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I'm not sure what AlexV is doing. Last I heard from him was several years ago, and I believe he was working with the San Jose sharks hockey team.  I also have been wanting to get in touch with RJ but I can no longer find him on facebook.

So are you training for any endurance event in particular or just running because you like to run?

I spent last weekend watching some ultra-endurance stuff on netflix.  The Barkley marathons. It's 5 laps of 20 miles thru mostly woods with very little in the way of trails. Has to be completed in 60 hours or less. Only something like 10 people have completed the event in 25 years. The sleep deprivation usually gets most people.

It seems many ultra-endurance competitors dont have any inherent talent other than being extremely determined. Hell, one of the barkley finishers couldn't even make his college cross country team and from what I gather that's pretty common. Not my cup of tea, but I can see where that type of event would be appealing to some people.

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« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2017, 07:48:39 pm »
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I'm not sure what AlexV is doing. Last I heard from him was several years ago, and I believe he was working with the San Jose sharks hockey team.

Yeah, just checked his site (http://evolutionaryathletics.com/), seems kind of broken. Has some kind of re-post script running though I think, recent articles from various people/coaches.

Quote
I also have been wanting to get in touch with RJ but I can no longer find him on facebook.

Saw something about him recently, posted it here:

Seems like he's back into the mix full force:

Quote
Roger Nelsen Jr. CSCS is the strength and conditioning coach for the 212th Rescue Squadron, a special operations unit in Anchorage, Alaska. He also currently runs Body Mechanics Personal Training with his wife, and fellow CSCS, Christal Nelsen, and loves nothing more than bringing people of all ages, backgrounds, and medical histories up to high levels of performance.

Quote
So are you training for any endurance event in particular or just running because you like to run?

Yup, road running races (1 mile, 5k). Not ready for 10k+ etc yet, need to figure out how to run consecutive sub5 splits for 3.1 miles first.

I do lots of races now and i'm somewhat competitive. Just won a historically big 5k Sunday (none of the people I wanted to show up were there tho) and got top 3 (3rd) in a mile race last week (4:58.16 with a uturn), that's actually pretty huge considering how fast these mile races are. Usually get top 3 in 5k's or top 3 in age group at least. I'm becoming more competitive at 5k now that my mile has improved so much -> which is my strategy. My main objective is to dominate these mile & 5k races. So I need my mile to get into the 4:3X's and then be able to sustain 4:5X pace consecutively for at least 3.1 miles. It's a "head on rim level" goal but IMHO, not really. I feel like i'm more capable of that than the head to rim goal, because i'm just more naturally "gifted" at running. Plus i'm 35 so that adds a bit of complexity to it.. but at 35 i'm pretty fast already & know I can get way faster.

I don't really "like running", but I LOVE racing. The only kind of running I like/enjoy, is very slow relaxed running. I do really love that. So I think that probably makes me more of a runner at heart than not, because I could run slow forever and enjoy it. Some people hate that. Hard/fast running is a battle. I enjoy how I feel afterwards, but in the moment, it can be brutal lmfao.

I love racing though.. Testing my fitness & training methodology against others, is really fun.

Also as far as races go, I hit a next gear.. I definitely race up to my competition. So racing more, especially against the fastest people, is one of my main strategies for improvement.

TLDR: When i'm 40 i'd love to be an elite masters runner, competing at national or even world events. I really think i'm capable. Just need to stay healthy and be smart. And I guess when i'm 70+ if I make it that far, i'd love to set some WR's.

Quote
I spent last weekend watching some ultra-endurance stuff on netflix.  The Barkley marathons. It's 5 laps of 20 miles thru mostly woods with very little in the way of trails. Has to be completed in 60 hours or less. Only something like 10 people have completed the event in 25 years. The sleep deprivation usually gets most people.

It seems many ultra-endurance competitors dont have any inherent talent other than being extremely determined. Hell, one of the barkley finishers couldn't even make his college cross country team and from what I gather that's pretty common. Not my cup of tea, but I can see where that type of event would be appealing to some people.

Yeah i'm not into the ultra stuff myself either, though I have incredible respect for those athletes. In my experience, many of those people don't really want to get "fast". I've met/known several of them, and they struggle performing respectably at 5k's for example. It's just that they either don't take speed seriously, or they are afraid of it. As you shift from speed distance to slow distance, the mental battle reduces in amplitude but increases in duration. To me, running a hard mile is 10000x harder than running an easy 20 miles for example. I think it's easy for them to "feed into" the reactions of people, when they hear about someone running 50 miles, 100 miles etc. I mean it seems batshit to me and unhealthy IMHO. It becomes a robotic mental grind at that point. Still takes an incredible amount of determination like you mentioned.

Also, some of the ultra people combine speed with ultra-distance, those are the legit freaks. Like someone running 7:30 per mile for 100 miles on a track or something like that. That resonates with me more because it's not about just "plodding" out the miles and saying you achieved it. At that point, it's also about world records and such, brings it closer to marathon level efforts to me.

And as far as marathon efforts go, that truly is the most mind blowing athletic event i've come to know, at this point. Kipchoge's breaking2 is absolutely incredible, 4:33 min/mi pace for 26.2 IIRC? Elites running 4:4x for 26.2 across a variety of turns/level changes/wind/elements etc. To me it's nutty. That combined speed + distance, is incredible.

peace!!