Post by: adarqui on February 27, 2010, 07:14:04 pm
Golden Child: LR Plant
Golden Child: LR Plant
Golden Child: LR Plant #3
Golden Child: 2-LEAD IN Runup
Post by: piR on February 27, 2010, 09:18:55 pm
Post by: ARowe on February 28, 2010, 08:29:19 am
Mr. No Heels svj
Post by: adarqui on February 28, 2010, 08:29:49 am
GC plants just like me; he digs his left heel into the ground, etc.
ya, except his pushoff is different.. he pushes off in a nearly half-squat position while on the ball of his foot, it's pretty insane how strong he is in his ankles.. sometimes his heel barely touches tho on his plant. i'm going to post another one tomorrow, i think it's even more extreme.
i need to relook at some of your jumps.
peace
Post by: nba8340 on March 06, 2010, 01:21:37 am
it's crazy how long golden child's last step is, also yeh how strong his ankles are
look at his left ankle how strong it inverts when he is about to jump
also i thought his back would be nice and straight but it's slouched at first and then he straightens it right before he jumps
Post by: adarqui on March 06, 2010, 01:34:45 am
yo these vids are sick adarqui
it's crazy how long golden child's last step is, also yeh how strong his ankles are
Ya, he covers SOOO much distance with his strides, and it's so aggressive.
His ankles are probably the strongest ive ever seen in any jumper. That is a perfect example of "great ankle stiffness", ie insane strength.
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look at his left ankle how strong it inverts when he is about to jump
Ya, he's basically jumping from a half squat position, WHILE being on his toes.. most people's feet are flat in that position. Hell, most people's feet are basically flat until their legs are about to lock out, then they triple extend.
Having strength like that in the ankles, he's able to store alot more energy in the tendons & get alot more out of his calfs.
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also i thought his back would be nice and straight but it's slouched at first and then he straightens it right before he jumps
Yea, that probably helps him stay off his heels initially.. Most people can't jump like that, they'd look like jello.
Post by: adarqui on March 06, 2010, 06:32:57 am
Post by: TKXII on April 08, 2010, 04:22:49 pm
The plant leg, GC's left leg, absorbs a great deal of force in da pchain to start of the motion, so you land on your heel then the second leg comes in turned inwards almost (depends on your tendency to pronate, or flatfootedness, bowed-leggedness..) and the achilles + quads, + inner thighs bring the rest of the body up, while the first leg then pushes off with quads as well and achilles.
Realize though how I said the inner thighs; they are literally pushing the body up and forward during the RVJ of only ONE leg, the 'non-dominant' leg as I like to think about it.
Therefore, my favorite lift, of which I will have a video of shortly (@theAktor) is a deadlift with the barbell in b/w the legs.
What do you think adarqui? and others? Main point - one leg is pchain dominant in the 2ft RVJ, other is quad/achilles.
And to respond to why GC's back is bent - helps him absorb more force in the pchain, it's the SSC to the RVJ, abdominals are workin it, that's what I think
here is a great vid demonstrating that - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I23FCaCsxkA&playnext_from=TL&videos=yHsaxZ0_c2c
Post by: adarqui on April 08, 2010, 05:06:08 pm
someone said that GC only plants one of his heels down, and then adarq you said it looks like a half squat position; I think I can explain that with the epiphany I made a while ago: that two footed RVJ is easier to think of as a single legged motion, in which both legs are involved differently, using different muscle groups, rather than a double legged motion - in MOST cases. Some people do jump using the same exact patterns of motor recruitment in both legs (powerlifters), but dunkers jump more, for lack of a better word, unsymmetrically, unidirectionally, TDUB is dominant on the right leg, GOlden child on the left.
The plant leg, GC's left leg, absorbs a great deal of force in da pchain to start of the motion, so you land on your heel then the second leg comes in turned inwards almost (depends on your tendency to pronate, or flatfootedness, bowed-leggedness..) and the achilles + quads, + inner thighs bring the rest of the body up, while the first leg then pushes off with quads as well and achilles.
Realize though how I said the inner thighs; they are literally pushing the body up and forward during the RVJ of only ONE leg, the 'non-dominant' leg as I like to think about it.
Therefore, my favorite lift, of which I will have a video of shortly (@theAktor) is a deadlift with the barbell in b/w the legs.
What do you think adarqui? and others? Main point - one leg is pchain dominant in the 2ft RVJ, other is quad/achilles.
And to respond to why GC's back is bent - helps him absorb more force in the pchain, it's the SSC to the RVJ, abdominals are workin it, that's what I think
here is a great vid demonstrating that - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I23FCaCsxkA&playnext_from=TL&videos=yHsaxZ0_c2c
well ya i agree that for most 2-footed basketball player plants, one leg uses more quad than the other, and the other leg uses more p-chain. This was actually measurable for myself, for example, I plant LR, and my left "vmo" was always 0.5" more than my right vmo. My right thigh was also 0.5" more than my left thigh.
In a plant like GC's, I'd imagine the initial plant leg would utilize more quad, because it is experiencing some major deceleration. The same goes for tus10 / t-dub or pretty much anyone. The people that plant simultaneously both legs, that changes things up, especially if they dont come in from a side angle. The people that come in from a "straight run up" and plant both legs are usually heavily squat trained, so they are using alot more p-chain.
The degree to which someone uses the achilles/calfs is definitely noticable in the plant. A guy like GC is getting a ton out of his calf/achilles, it's so damn strong he barely plants his heel. In plenty of vids he doesn't plant his heels at all. As my ankles got stronger, I started getting off my heels.
peace man
Post by: TKXII on April 13, 2010, 02:15:26 pm
I think though that the second leg uses more quad because there seems to be more knee flexion. Not just quad, but more achilles as well; I know this is true for me the way I jump because I feel the soreness the following day. And it makes the most sense if you think about doing a 360, dunk, or 720, whatever. The quads of the second leg plays the role of diverting the body in the desired direction, i'm sure someone has done an in depth analysis or something, wish I had it in my hands, haha
Post by: adarqui on April 13, 2010, 05:02:12 pm
wait what is vmo?
vastius medialis oblique
(http://www.sports-injury-info.com/image-files/patella-femoral-syndrome-vmo.jpg)
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I think though that the second leg uses more quad because there seems to be more knee flexion. Not just quad, but more achilles as well; I know this is true for me the way I jump because I feel the soreness the following day. And it makes the most sense if you think about doing a 360, dunk, or 720, whatever. The quads of the second leg plays the role of diverting the body in the desired direction, i'm sure someone has done an in depth analysis or something, wish I had it in my hands, haha
i havn't seen any, but it'd be hard to decipher, because who know how the plant is actually happening.. a side plant differs greatly from a "squat" plant.
but if you find anything let me know, i havn't foun much.
pc
Post by: TKXII on April 14, 2010, 04:37:58 pm
Post by: adarqui on April 14, 2010, 05:12:33 pm
OH yeah, the VMO, yeah yeah. Hm that's interesting for you, I really don't know everyone's different. But it's still very interesting if we can figure out how to train each leg individually to train the ways they work during an RVJ. WHich is what I'm trying to do atm, kinda stopped squats in general. Used to love front squats and my SVJ was going up but I'd rather train speed involved in the RVJ. I wonder what these ppls SVJs are. I know Troy McCray has a lot of strength, but these TDub and GC take high speed run ups
well, i'm not into that ideology, training each leg differently, that's getting way too specific IMO.. i'd rather just become generally stronger, then let the specific skill of RVJ/etc cause those changes.
rumor has it, T-dub's SVJ is low 30's or even lower.. him & GC are definitely ALL reactive.
troy definitely has the best SVJ of all these top dunkers, i mean his SVJ-BTL is insane.. they have some nice footage of troy doing drop-step vert's at a dunk contest, on a vertec.. i think he hit like 11'2-11'4 or something.. i forget.
Post by: TKXII on April 16, 2010, 09:39:49 am
Brings up the question are theese people jsut genetic freaks or have they really started to train at the optimal time? And if you think about it, it should be much easier, metabolically to synthesize lots of collagen, rather than muscle, and be easier to improve tendon stiffness/tendon size, than muscle when those hormones are so high, since buildig muscle is a much more intensive process. Vitamin C + some lysine or proline = collagen basically, but it's not that simple of course
Post by: adarqui on April 16, 2010, 03:42:52 pm
That's crazy, if Tdub's SVJ was that low, but would make sense; he could dunk since he was a boy. I think people like him, who simply practice jumping during puberty, develop extremely reactive tendons, due to the extra hormones floating around in their blood during that time, have you seen Ben WIlliams? He started triple jumping when young and now has very stiff tendons, and doesn't seem to weight train much.
Brings up the question are theese people jsut genetic freaks or have they really started to train at the optimal time? And if you think about it, it should be much easier, metabolically to synthesize lots of collagen, rather than muscle, and be easier to improve tendon stiffness/tendon size, than muscle when those hormones are so high, since buildig muscle is a much more intensive process. Vitamin C + some lysine or proline = collagen basically, but it's not that simple of course
well, most of us white boys have been playing ball/jumping since a young age, and that didn't help :) I mean, I played all day every day from age 8 to age 22-23.. I would do max jumps all the time, trying to dunk on 8 when i was young, or trying to touch rim when i was in h.s. on up.. didn't do anything for me.. this is a reason why you see dunk/jump programs so popular, it's a majority of people who have been playing ball their whole life but can't jump for shit who are buying the programs... i mean i personally got so frustrated that even years after getting bored of basketball, i still wanted to dunk.. hah.. if anyone put the work in on the court/jumping it was me, didn't help one bit for my vert tho.
it has more to do with genetics imo.. sure if they didn't jump/play as much ball as they did, they wouldn't have those hops.. but these guys just adapt/have the leverages/tendon length/power naturally to be great..
i mean ive seen it with kids that i've tested, for performance camps.. you get mostly kids with bad performance numbers, then you get some kid (mostly black or hispanic, but some white) who just have freaky power numbers for their age.. absolutely dominate everyone else in terms of power.. their gene pool for power is just better.. :)
but ya, generally the most motor learning is going to happen at a young age, so getting in the right kind of practice/training at a young age definitely does help.
peace man
Post by: Raptor on April 20, 2010, 08:15:38 am
I thought the quads take a lot more beating trying to decelerate and prevent the knees from collapsing than when planting sideways, since planting sideways brings a bit of a twist and the plant occurs at a different angle than a direct overload of the quads that happens in a straight-forward plant.
I don't get it.
Post by: adarqui on April 20, 2010, 05:48:41 pm
I don't get why a "squat plant" (both feet at the same time) has more posterior chain amortization ???
I thought the quads take a lot more beating trying to decelerate and prevent the knees from collapsing than when planting sideways, since planting sideways brings a bit of a twist and the plant occurs at a different angle than a direct overload of the quads that happens in a straight-forward plant.
I don't get it.
i'm not talking squat plant just being both feet same time, im talking landing both feet, squared to the basket, just like a squat / SVJ would be.. these jumps usually have slower run ups, which means less deceleration.. it's more of a strength jump where you hop into a plant (quarter squat or lower) that is very balanced, both legs will be on the ground for the same amount of time, hips can be back more to load the hamstrings better..
to me it's more p-chain than side plant.
Post by: Raptor on April 21, 2010, 03:02:13 am
AC is using this technique in a few dunks, if we're talking about the same plant. It's also being seen in technically defficient/physicaly strong people.
Post by: adarqui on April 21, 2010, 01:55:00 pm
But because of the angle, the quads need much more force to amortizate properly and prevent knee collapse.
AC is using this technique in a few dunks, if we're talking about the same plant. It's also being seen in technically defficient/physicaly strong people.
well ya AC's plant does come to mind.. he claims that he switched to a more side-plant for his 50/55.5 (heh) jumps.
i still think side plant is alot more quad, i also think it's why most basketball players with no weight training experience use this style of plant.. the stronger you get (in the p-chain , from squatting etc), the more you tend to deviate from side into a more double-neutral plant.. so if we just look at it from that perspective, the more you improve your glute/ham strength, the more you shift from side to double-neutral.. i mean, this happened with me and a bunch of other people on TVS, the stronger i got in squatting, the more i switched to double-neutral.. now that could just be because of the squat itself, my body wanting to be in the position from start to finish, but it was my p-chain that was limiting me on those below parallel squats and as i improved that i shifted.. when i used a half squat close stance neutral foot style, it didn't effect my plant one bit, i side planted even stronger.. the deep squatting journey i was on was effecting my plant big time.
pc man
Post by: TKXII on April 25, 2010, 10:05:11 pm
Post by: Natho on April 25, 2010, 10:53:39 pm
Post by: adarqui on April 26, 2010, 12:16:54 am
have u guys ever noticed justin darligton's plant, it's RL but it's almost two feet at the excact same time, doesnt' look that great or finesse but he gets wayyyyyyy up....double-neutral
ya definitely, he gets very deep too.
Post by: Raptor on April 26, 2010, 04:21:13 am
What about their arm swings (double/single arm swings and the moment of the arm swing). For example, I was playing NBA 2k10 and looking through the dunk packs, and it was one dunk when the guy would arm swing with his left arm during the pen-penultimate step and then again when he jumped).
So I guess a lot of stuff happens with the arm swing that gets overlooked.
Post by: TKXII on April 27, 2010, 08:52:44 am
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ya definitely, he gets very deep too.
You think he gets deep?In most videos he looks like he is barely bending at the knees, but I have seen in some dunks he gets deep, still not nearly as deep as GC I would think..
Post by: adarqui on April 27, 2010, 03:25:58 pm
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ya definitely, he gets very deep too.
You think he gets deep?In most videos he looks like he is barely bending at the knees, but I have seen in some dunks he gets deep, still not nearly as deep as GC I would think..
ya, well he's pretty versatile, he can go lr/rl/leftleg slrvj, so we're going to see alot of variety.
but on alot of dunks i've seen him go pretty deep.
check this:
http://www.adarq.org/forum/crazy-weird-analysis-stuff-%29/various-jumpers-plants/
t-dub's got some ridiculous shit going on.
Post by: TKXII on April 27, 2010, 11:42:25 pm
However, in the video below, Tdub does not seem to be getting as low (slow-mo at 0:22) - he also jumps faster than the speed of light.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg4oPtERYqY&playnext_from=TL&videos=SbZIJ6uHZGQ
Maybe I should have posted this in the plant thread..
Post by: adarqui on May 25, 2010, 08:04:35 pm
yeah I jsut checked that out, sick thread. Tdub get's the lowest by far - which IMO looks cool as well - it makes you look like you're jumping higher too.
However, in the video below, Tdub does not seem to be getting as low (slow-mo at 0:22) - he also jumps faster than the speed of light.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg4oPtERYqY&playnext_from=TL&videos=SbZIJ6uHZGQ
Maybe I should have posted this in the plant thread..
ya he definitely didn't dip as low on that dunk and he was flying.. his run up was really fast though, could have had something to do with it.
Post by: Raptor on May 27, 2010, 05:40:49 am
You probably will bend more off a two-step approach or so.
Post by: adarqui on May 27, 2010, 01:54:09 pm
Probably the more speed you have, the less you will bend in your jump because bending more will overload too much and also make you "reset" and lose all that momentum.
You probably will bend more off a two-step approach or so.
ya I agree.. some of t-dub's huge run ups amaze me, sometimes he gets low off 6+ steps.. for most everyone, that's just too much force/momentum to handle at those depths.
I was actually thinking about experimenting with a drill to improve the plant:
- big run up
- plant (side and/or "front")
- no jump
I never uploaded any of my huge run up dunks, because they weren't anything special except for the run up, wish i would have, i had a few run ups from beyond half court (from beyond the sideline though).. i definitely didn't get max, the plant's were so "high", damn near stiff legged and i'd just bounce up to about 33 or so RVJ, even when i was around 37-38" from 4 steps at the time.
I think maybe it's time to experiment with some plant specialization exercises :D
peace
Post by: Raptor on May 27, 2010, 04:58:38 pm