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Avishek
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« on: December 17, 2011, 10:47:42 pm » |
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Full title: THe right and wrong way to squat: most people reading this squat the wrong way. I'm going to make this really short, but after a few responses I'll get more detailed. Almost everyone I see in the gym does the useless type of squat for athleticism: you can call it the toe-to-heel squat. Weak glutes, laziness, ego and resultant desire to stack more plates on the bar, tight adductors/hipflexors, are all potential contributors to this calamity plaguing athletes every hour of the day. When I teach people how to squat (as the bona fide personal trainer I am), most people will initially descend on toes and ascend shifting to heels, performing this evil toe-to-heel squat. As a result, I came up with (as plenty of other moderately intelligent men and women have), of teaching a heel-to-toe squat. Descend, focusing on heels, ascend, rising on toes. Works wonders. It's important to understand the importance of this because many people who get interested in jumping higher subsequently become interested in weight lifting, and many waste their time due to incorrect form, and then lose interest in vertical jump and cease to see any gains so instead just focus on strength training. I've seen plenty of 'impressive' squat videos on this forum that are unfortunately toe-to-heel evil squats; and the athletes squatting this way usually have a poor vertical jump because this type of squatting won't transfer as well to VJ. Here is a toe to heel squat: at 00:11, she is on her toes, at 00:12, she shifts her weight back onto her entire foot, and then shifts back to toe. Concomitant with toe-heel mechanics are the positions of the knee and hip joints; the knee and hip tend to move in directions that they would not during athletic events in a vertical (coronal), or horizontal (sagittal) planes. Compare the way her hips and knees move in relation to her box jumping: In weight lifting, since the planes are slightly more restricted, the knees of toe-to-heel (to be called toe squatters from now on) push back tremendously. Notice in the squat video, that while her knees move back, her hips also move back. THis would be good if the athlete wanted to improve her ability to jump backwards.It's easier to lift more weight this way though for sure and that's why people do it. Here is another example of toe squatting The video I was looking for though was when frank yang literally jumped backwards after a max squat, throwing the bar in front of him... That wouldn't be possible if he were heel squatting, and transferring the forces to the toes, and extending more at the hip, because HE would be moving forwards slightly with the bar. Toe squatters move backwards, and this creates a nice levrage to lift more weight up. THe clearest evidence is in the knees, they come forward, and move back exaggeratedly as I mentioned earlier. Of course the knees do that in a vertical jump as well because that is how knee extension works in the coronal plane, but not as much. And NOBODY vertical jumps descending on their toes and ascending on their heels or some part of the foot behind the toes. Of coruse frank could jump high, but I am confident he'd be able to jump higher if he could squat the same numbers with the form I recommend... the same form everyone recommends in fact. It's natural to transfer weight forward whether it's walking, running, or jumping. I've taken videos of my deadlifts and noticed I fail to get back on my heels during the eccentric wth 70% of greater of 1rm. It's weakness. The challenge then arises: who can jump the highest, with the weakest squat? (assuming you weren't naturally jumping freakishly high, also assuming the squat is the heel-to-toe correct squat of course). Those wth strong squat who cannot jump high are probably doing toe to heel squats. Lastly, you'll immediately feel a difference in recruited musculature after doing it correctly. |
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"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"... breh
-MJ
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steven-miller
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« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2011, 05:40:07 am » |
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I have not read that much rubbish in quite a while on this forum. The fact that you seem to train people makes me really sad. I really do not know what to say about this since so much stuff was already covered here and elsewhere about related topics. For example why it is fucking stupid to try to mimic a jump when back squatting. Also note how every squat you posted was done with inappropriate shoes. And that you did not post video of a squat that you thought was correct. Or how the first video is not even a squat in the first place. It is also fascinating that you dichotomize squats in "right" and "wrong" and continue to refer to two types of "squats", that not even many people do or propose and which are, btw., both wrong. |
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Avishek
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« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2011, 12:40:54 pm » |
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"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"... breh
-MJ
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steven-miller
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« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2011, 01:00:59 pm » |
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I don't try to be credible or even to have a discussion with you. There is nothing to be gained by talking to people whose misinformation starts with the most basic things and who expect you to spoon fed everything to them. The sole intention of my last post was to inform you that, in my opinion, you posted rubbish - again. |
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vag
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« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2011, 01:35:46 pm » |
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I am very curious to know how/why steven miller's 35'' SVJ is 'not good' and how his 420x5 ATG squat is 'decent'. |
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Raptor
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« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2011, 01:59:04 pm » |
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You'd expect a guy with a 420x5 squat to jump higher than 35 SVJ. Just my opinion. |
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LanceSTS
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« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2011, 02:27:44 pm » |
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You'd expect a guy with a 420x5 squat to jump higher than 35 SVJ. Just my opinion.
First, a TRUE 35 svj at his bw of ~200 lbs is not something to laugh at, you dont take into consideration the length of his levers, his bw, fiber distribution, etc. etc., so thats a very dumb statement. Figure up your squat to bw ratio, and your TRUE svj, then compare it to his ratio. Maybe he "only" jumps 35 because he doesnt squat on his toes though, hed be flying the rest of high flyers who over analyze and butcher the living fuck out of general strength exercises. |
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Relax.
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Raptor
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« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2011, 02:58:01 pm » |
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You'd expect a guy with a 420x5 squat to jump higher than 35 SVJ. Just my opinion.
First, a TRUE 35 svj at his bw of ~200 lbs is not something to laugh at, you dont take into consideration the length of his levers, his bw, fiber distribution, etc. etc., so thats a very dumb statement. Figure up your squat to bw ratio, and your TRUE svj, then compare it to his ratio. Maybe he "only" jumps 35 because he doesnt squat on his toes though, hed be flying the rest of high flyers who over analyze and butcher the living fuck out of general strength exercises. I do, trust me. I take into consideration and all that, but IN MY OPINION, BASED ON HIS STRENGTH NUMBERS, you'd expect a higher SVJ. I'm not "laughing at" whatsoever. 35 is no joke. If diminutive 5'5 O-lifters jump 40+, you'd expect a taller guy with better leverage to do better at 420x5 squat, even if that weaker than what O-lifters squat. |
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LanceSTS
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« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2011, 03:03:19 pm » |
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You'd expect a guy with a 420x5 squat to jump higher than 35 SVJ. Just my opinion.
First, a TRUE 35 svj at his bw of ~200 lbs is not something to laugh at, you dont take into consideration the length of his levers, his bw, fiber distribution, etc. etc., so thats a very dumb statement. Figure up your squat to bw ratio, and your TRUE svj, then compare it to his ratio. Maybe he "only" jumps 35 because he doesnt squat on his toes though, hed be flying the rest of high flyers who over analyze and butcher the living fuck out of general strength exercises. I do, trust me. I take into consideration and all that, but IN MY OPINION, BASED ON HIS STRENGTH NUMBERS, you'd expect a higher SVJ. I'm not "laughing at" whatsoever. 35 is no joke. If diminutive 5'5 O-lifters jump 40+, you'd expect a taller guy with better leverage to do better at 420x5 squat, even if that weaker than what O-lifters squat. since their SQUAT is the reason for their vj ........... the dudes JUMP heavy weights overhead and through space all day long, but that damn squat is all thats making the jumps high. |
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Relax.
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Avishek
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« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2011, 03:34:30 pm » |
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It's interesting how people start debating about other random shit in a debate after realizing they can't make any valid points. I don't think anyone can disagree (and that's why no one has made any comments on it), that descending with elevated heels, and ascending with the hips pushing backwards, and the heels depressed, is better than squatting heel-to-toe as a mental cue, or has any relevance to vertical jump, sprinting, or any athletic movement involving plantar flexion, knee and hip extension. This is really not overanalyzed. It's common sense. Actually, kinesthetic sense. Don't think about it.. feel about it. It doesn't make sense to squat this way. It's the lazy way to squat and happens under fatigue. Lastly, steven has a good VJ after watching the video closely. I thought it was only 30 at first but looks like it could be 35. But yes for having over a 2xbw squat, it could be way better. His reason would be slow RFD, because I looked at his form and it is not bad at all, there is a tiny amount of hip movement backwards but not much comapared to these other videos. Frank Yang had a very good VJ, but squatted toe-to-heel (but trained very explosively) so the point is thus, you can develop strong quads by squatting incorrectly toe-to-heel, but you can get stronger in a more specific fashion heel-to-toe. Not incredibly huge of a deal, but enough worth posting about. |
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"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"... breh
-MJ
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Kingfish
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« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2011, 03:48:09 pm » |
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to make this "best squat-style" for SVJ, id say learn to front squat and use the closest movement pattern on a high bar back squat. simple. done. my best front squat recently in less than 8 weeks of doing them is in the mid-high 300s.. and im not failing from lack of quads.. my wrist gives out while i try to push the bar / prevent the bar from falling out of my deltoids. if you don't have the flexibility for a clean grip.. the best harness i recently saw the trainers in my gym is using looks like a 8-10" rod with extended hooks at both ends to grip the bar (2 harness, 1 for each hand). you will front squat with your wrist a good 6-8" above your deltoids, almost at ear level. this harness also makes low bar squatting alot easier on the wrist since you can grip a low bar with wrists almost at high bar wide |
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« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 04:00:38 pm by Kingfish »
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5'10" | 170lbs | 8.4%BF | 30 yrs
reach - 7'8" (92") |paused full squat - 440x1| 90° Squat - 515x2 | standing VJ - 40"|
That which that does not kill us, makes us stronger.
- Friedrich Nietzsche
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J-DUB
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« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2011, 04:12:50 pm » |
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It's interesting how people start debating about other random shit in a debate after realizing they can't make any valid points.
I don't think anyone can disagree (and that's why no one has made any comments on it), that descending with elevated heels, and ascending with the hips pushing backwards, and the heels depressed, is better than squatting heel-to-toe as a mental cue, or has any relevance to vertical jump, sprinting, or any athletic movement involving plantar flexion, knee and hip extension.
This is really not overanalyzed. It's common sense. Actually, kinesthetic sense. Don't think about it.. feel about it. It doesn't make sense to squat this way. It's the lazy way to squat and happens under fatigue.
Lastly, steven has a good VJ after watching the video closely. I thought it was only 30 at first but looks like it could be 35. But yes for having over a 2xbw squat, it could be way better. His reason would be slow RFD, because I looked at his form and it is not bad at all, there is a tiny amount of hip movement backwards but not much comapared to these other videos. Frank Yang had a very good VJ, but squatted toe-to-heel (but trained very explosively) so the point is thus, you can develop strong quads by squatting incorrectly toe-to-heel, but you can get stronger in a more specific fashion heel-to-toe. Not incredibly huge of a deal, but enough worth posting about.
x 2 bro, i dont get these morons not learning from an experienced elite guru such as yourself. you have brought us the avishek drops that dont need to be absorbed, the jumping round backed powercleans and snatches, and amazing running deadlifts and smash the swiss ball off balance pistols. why someone wouldnt follow your advice is beyond individuals such as myself, you have proven that you are insanely strong and athletic, i mean i dont know too many people on the earth lifting those massive poundages with that type form other than the master himself, diesel weasel. nor people who can actually fly like yourself and grab a basketball rim. I mean come on guys, how can u not take this dude serious, just look at the wealth of knowledge he exhibits in his videos. beautiful. POWER. ELITE GENIUS NO WORDS FOR THE ELITENESS OF THIS i mean come the fuck on guys, stop arguing about random shit and listen to this guy please hes a FUCKING GENIUS. |
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Raptor
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« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2011, 04:47:59 pm » |
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No Avishek drops video, no point taken ^^^ Sorry. EDIT: Actually there are "some" drops but not 10 feet +. That sucks. |
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TheSituation
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« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2011, 06:18:02 pm » |
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It's interesting how people start debating about other random shit in a debate after realizing they can't make any valid points.
I don't think anyone can disagree (and that's why no one has made any comments on it), that descending with elevated heels, and ascending with the hips pushing backwards, and the heels depressed, is better than squatting heel-to-toe as a mental cue, or has any relevance to vertical jump, sprinting, or any athletic movement involving plantar flexion, knee and hip extension.
This is really not overanalyzed. It's common sense. Actually, kinesthetic sense. Don't think about it.. feel about it. It doesn't make sense to squat this way. It's the lazy way to squat and happens under fatigue.
Lastly, steven has a good VJ after watching the video closely. I thought it was only 30 at first but looks like it could be 35. But yes for having over a 2xbw squat, it could be way better. His reason would be slow RFD, because I looked at his form and it is not bad at all, there is a tiny amount of hip movement backwards but not much comapared to these other videos. Frank Yang had a very good VJ, but squatted toe-to-heel (but trained very explosively) so the point is thus, you can develop strong quads by squatting incorrectly toe-to-heel, but you can get stronger in a more specific fashion heel-to-toe. Not incredibly huge of a deal, but enough worth posting about.
lol If you get relatively stronger in any kind of squat (after neural gains), your jump is going to go up. Doesn't matter if it's optimal A 35 inch jump is higher than most players in the NFL (take into account inflation). I'm sure a lot of them are strong enough to squat 2xBW. I'm not sure what you are basing your numbers on. You're too distracted by e-stats to know how people actually jump. Thank people like Rip for that. |
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« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 06:21:04 pm by TheSituation »
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I don't lift for girls, I lift for guys on the internet
[7:31pm] adarq: ripp, being honest, it's hard for u to beat jcsbck, he's on fire lately
[7:31pm] adarq: he's just
[7:31pm] adarq: wrecking people
[7:31pm] adarq: daily
Say NO to Maroko
And also NO to anyone who associates with him. No Taylor Allan. No Adam Scammenauger. No Kelly Baggett. No Elliot Hulse. No Jtrinsey. NO JUMP USA
Don't PM me asking me training questions. I'm here for the lulz. If you want help, post on the forums and get help from all the members, maybe even me.
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chrisbro1
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« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2011, 06:40:57 pm » |
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"Must use legs to push effectively with pecs" Interesting. |
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