Author Topic: Becoming a supple leopard  (Read 5972 times)

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Raptor

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Re: Becoming a supple leopard
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2013, 02:20:33 pm »
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I think a more correct term would be "torsion" strength... that twisting of the entire leg generates better proprioception/tension. Remember sickening vendetta?

entropy

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Re: Becoming a supple leopard
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2013, 02:37:19 pm »
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If John Broz wrote a book on how to squat, that would be worth reading. He's the only guy in the west* who knows what he's talking about. The rest are all pretty much clueless. Broz's lifters have beautiful form and they're strong as well. It's no coincidence that he's learnt everything he knows from spending time in eastern europe. His lifters exhibit excellent mobility as well. I noticed they have a knee-forward action, knee-in action and knee-out action respectively on descent->bottom->ascent too.

More examples of broz's lifters out of my nice squats youtube playlist:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0XfqQRdohY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0XfqQRdohY</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ25HHy0Ops" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ25HHy0Ops</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1DJ8odNf-M" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1DJ8odNf-M</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5DEMTIc2RI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5DEMTIc2RI</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZORJIeftIk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZORJIeftIk</a>


[*]on the inetrnets
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 02:40:44 pm by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

entropy

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Re: Becoming a supple leopard
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2013, 06:53:53 pm »
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<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTsaP8WDZHs" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTsaP8WDZHs</a>

Another angle of berestov.
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

entropy

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Re: Becoming a supple leopard
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2013, 08:06:54 pm »
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<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSE4hnVDREY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSE4hnVDREY</a>

same knee action as described.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 10:46:21 pm by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

entropy

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Re: Becoming a supple leopard
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2013, 10:48:49 pm »
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Asian bros

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DRIuA_mEOU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DRIuA_mEOU</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xl3fBUpz_s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xl3fBUpz_s</a>

Irish bro

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsvPp6cGn4U" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsvPp6cGn4U</a>

cuba WL
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwOT3kvh3KA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwOT3kvh3KA</a>

another russian
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGidV-a1Phw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGidV-a1Phw</a>


At some point you have to wonder if the whole world has bad form (so called "knee cave" FAULT according to starrett and other internet coaches) or maybe just maybe, your idea of good form is bad? Hmm?
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acole14

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Re: Becoming a supple leopard
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2013, 12:33:50 am »
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You're probably right...I don't know if using extreme outliers is the best way to prove it though. The trouble with this issue is most of the squat biomechanics papers I've read don't really discuss this issue, and Kstarr himself has never actually published anything either. What the fuck are kinesiologists doing all day!? Haha.

entropy

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Re: Becoming a supple leopard
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2013, 01:13:35 am »
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Outliers because they're elite athletes? Or outliers among elite athletes? Because among elite weightlifters this is probably the rule rather than the exception! If they're doing this safely with no harm to knees and if it's helping them lift a lot of weight and get really strong and powerful then the shoe fits.

Anecdotally a bunch of me-toos on the internet are self-reporting the same after kirksman started this whole thing on pendlays forum, some saying previous knee problems have disappeared once they stopped going knees out! That's pretty wild and worth considering. They're also saying they're getting PRs after switching. I don't really care much for what those guys say though. I actually hung out with kirksman in person and his method didn't really work for me. But it made me reconsider everything and question things i'd taken for granted just because of conventional wisdom and now my idea of good form is something like "knees-fwd, knees-in and knees-out" like every single video i've posted above. No knee problems whatsoever and i'm finally making progress with my backsquat after being horrible at it forever.

I just think, try it out, if it works for you, great. If it doesn't try somethign else. But don't take anything for granted, after all these guys who write books are just coming up with with reasons to justify their prejudices. ITS NOT SCIENCE. It's just opinion. IMHO. Question everything (in this murky field anyway).
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entropy

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Re: Becoming a supple leopard
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2013, 01:46:03 am »
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Russian PL:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRRijTU86aU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRRijTU86aU</a>

Once again, knees-in out of, followed by knees-out to lockout.
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Raptor

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Re: Becoming a supple leopard
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2013, 07:49:24 am »
+1
Yeah but you're taking extreme examples of maximal lifts and making them look like they're picture perfect. That's like taking my max deadlift attempt and say "look at this guy: he deadlifts his max with his back bent so therefore a bent back should be the proper form".

They get their knees in because they aren't able to keep them out due to going to their max. If they were able then they'd either lift more or not be at their max.

entropy

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Re: Becoming a supple leopard
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2013, 06:25:55 pm »
-1
Yeah but you're taking extreme examples of maximal lifts and making them look like they're picture perfect. That's like taking my max deadlift attempt and say "look at this guy: he deadlifts his max with his back bent so therefore a bent back should be the proper form".

The reason i'm using limit attempts (for the most part) is because that's when you see the true form under heavy load. For these guys the form for a few reps of 200kg is like 60kg for us mere mortals, utterly trivial, they can do those with any form they please EVEN SUBOTOPTIMAL KNEES OUT FORM. But to observe their true form under stress you have to look at limit reps/weights. Those higher rep sets as reps get slower and more challenging as the set goes on. Or the really heavy PR maxes. That's when you see how they lift with the most efficienct technique.

Quote
They get their knees in because they aren't able to keep them out due to going to their max. If they were able then they'd either lift more or not be at their max.

That's not a valid counterargument. Absence of proof isn't proof of absence.  It's not even a scientific argument because those proponents of knees-out action haven't tried anything out before proclaiming against the knees-in action. If you had, like many others who have embraced a knee-in action out of the bottom of a squat you'd notice how stronger and more explosive it is instantly. People are getting PRs from the mere change. The fact is the facts dont bear out that theory, if anythign they contradict it. The onyl thing you can conclude from lighter/easier sets where knees can stay out is that it's not challenging enough to warrant more efficient technique. That's all.
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Raptor

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Re: Becoming a supple leopard
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2013, 07:01:19 pm »
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You can say whatever you want to say but "efficient" is not the same as "good for safety and muscle building purposes". Maybe if you want to lift the most possible weight and win in your category as a WEIGHTLIFTER (not as an athlete that uses weightlifting to build muscle for his athletic endeavors) then yeah, you can go overboard with "efficient" and "unsafe" technique.

Would a guy trying to win his powerlifting event risk pulling with a bent back on a deadlift his final attempt? You bet he would. Would he be smart to try to do that continuously every day he trains? I don't think so.

Same here. Yes they will go to their max and allow the knees to cave in if that means winning the competition etc.

And no, just because 200 kg is their 60% 1RM is NOT easy for them. It's still very hard, even as a low % of their 1RM. It still might bring up some issues they have in maintaining proper form, even as elite as they are.

entropy

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Re: Becoming a supple leopard
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2013, 07:10:51 pm »
-1
You can say whatever you want to say but "efficient" is not the same as "good for safety and muscle building purposes". Maybe if you want to lift the most possible weight and win in your category as a WEIGHTLIFTER (not as an athlete that uses weightlifting to build muscle for his athletic endeavors) then yeah, you can go overboard with "efficient" and "unsafe" technique.

Looking at it the wrong way. If this technique is fundamentally sound enough for other men to lift extremely heavy weights safely then maybe it's good enough for the rest of us with our more modest loads. But you're completely off the mark this time. This method of lifting recruits more LEG musculature - these guys have very strong quads and highly defined VMOs. This is what we look for when training for athleticism!

Quote
Would a guy trying to win his powerlifting event risk pulling with a bent back on a deadlift his final attempt? You bet he would. Would he be smart to try to do that continuously every day he trains? I don't think so.

Why are you muddling the issue by introducing deadlifts? Round back deadlifts have a place in training, as do straight back ones. They're a tool whose use depends on the needs of the lifter. Off topic, let us stick to squats.

Quote
Same here. Yes they will go to their max and allow the knees to cave in if that means winning the competition etc.

pls go. you're being an idiot. Go and try it out and see how you feel about it, even if it's with the empty bar. Get a tendo unit, see if it gives you more bar speed. Explore it, dont apriori reject it out of dogma because some asshole who came out of crossfit wrote a book saying you must saying you must keep knees out.

Quote
And no, just because 200 kg is their 60% 1RM is NOT easy for them. It's still very hard, even as a low % of their 1RM. It still might bring up some issues they have in maintaining proper form, even as elite as they are.

nah, they're pro weightlifters they have the best form going around, they live and breathe this shit. revise your theory that they don't care about technique when doign these heavy lifts and reconsider that maybe they have to lift that way to move such heavy weights out of necessity and efficiency considerations.

edit. I'll just add one last thing on this post. If you lift 60% of 1RM, you have less muscle recruitment than if you were lifting 90% of 1RM. Maximum muscle recruitment happens at 100% of 1RM. Or when you are lifting near a RM for a given percentage of 1RM. So an 8RM has near enough 100% muscular recruitment as you get closer to rep 8.

Now what does this mean for our knee-in vs knee-out discussion? It is when the lifter requires 100% of muscular recruitment, especially of the legs and VMOs that's what knee-in gives you out of the bottom of a squat, that extra kick to initiate the ascent of the squat. And this is why you see an exaggerated knee-in action on those limit weights (for reps or max), because you must recruit more muscle than at 60% when you can relax the need to recruit as much muscle.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 07:34:39 pm by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

Raptor

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Re: Becoming a supple leopard
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2013, 07:45:08 pm »
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It's not because some guy in Crossfit said it - it's because if you look at most knee injuries (same as yes, back injuries in the case of the beloved deadlift) - they happen (ACL tears more specifically) when knee valgus is involved. Same with bent backs in the deadlifts. It's just regular physics, body structure and logic. Try to fight these in the argument you're making.

entropy

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Re: Becoming a supple leopard
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2013, 07:48:55 pm »
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None of these guys are in valgus. Knee-in action to initiate the concentric is NOT VALGUS COLLAPSE. It's a controlled push of the knees inwards to recruit leg musculature and improve leverage.
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LBSS

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Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

handstand + backflip + flag