Author Topic: Rest Cures Effusion  (Read 4464 times)

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Gary

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Rest Cures Effusion
« on: March 18, 2012, 09:44:47 pm »
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Looks like I really needed to rest from all squatting and jumping for a good long while.

I read a very old book online about knee effusion. The suggested treatment was months -- not just weeks -- of total rest. I finally gave in and stopped all lower body training. Remember I was at the point where walking more than a quarter mile or standing more than fifteen minutes would cause my knees to fill up!

I haven't squatted with a barbell since early December except for a couple overhead squats a few weeks ago. My knees got better almost daily with the rest. Pain cleared up after about a month and effusion stopped refilling and actually went down. My left knee remained just a tiny bit puffy and so I finally drained it one more time a couple weeks ago. Got only 6-7 cc of clear fluid which has not come back.

I can squat down with knees forward without pain, though I get uncomfortable if I remain in that position more than a minute. I have walked for miles without causing effusion. I've even jogged here and there. My knees still get a little tired if I carry a lot of stuff as I did during my own move and a friend's recently. But I am largely pain and effusion free now because I've stopped traumatizing my knees with frequent heavy squatting.

This brings me to my problem. I'm obviously afraid that squat and jump training will never be tolerated well by my banged up knees. I figure I should take a page from the American style of training and limit my squats to once per week when I test them again. Clearly I wasn't giving my knees enough time to recover between heavy loading and use. I am also wondering if I should wait another three months before reintroducing squats.

My stated plan is to wait another three months, then do a linear progression with squats only one day per week, using wraps and starting with 1RM - 150 lbs and adding 10 lbs per session till I am doing triples with my old 1RM four months later.

This is actually an old routine popularized by Ricky Dale Crain. Two sets of five regular followed by two sets of five paused with ~50 lbs less. Halfway through switch to triples. Nice limited volume, half of which is paused squats which are must gentler on the knees. Very low frequency. I also like how it starts with very light weights, the kind I'll be forced to use because my squat will likely be around 60% of my old pre-layoff max (It was after my last layoff of several weeks).
Height: 5'9.5"
Wingspan: 6'4"
Standing Reach Barefoot: 7'10"
Weight: 175 lbs
Standing Vertical Jump: 29"
Running Vertical Jump Bilateral: 30.5"
Running Vertical Jump, Unilateral: 25"
Standing Broad Jump: 9'3"
Beltless High Bar Squat: 365
Beltless Conventional Deadlift: 450
Low Bar Squat w/ Belt (in USAPL raw): 418
Sumo Deadlift w/ Belt (in USAPL raw): 506

Dreyth

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Re: Rest Cures Effusion
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2012, 10:53:19 pm »
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I hate the American style of squatting once per week also. But dammit, I got jumper's knee in both knees (but heavy in my left knee) and gave in.

I'm doing 5/3/1 now. You should look into that. Slow, consistent gains.
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adarqui

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Re: Rest Cures Effusion
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2012, 04:38:42 am »
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Looks like I really needed to rest from all squatting and jumping for a good long while.

I read a very old book online about knee effusion. The suggested treatment was months -- not just weeks -- of total rest. I finally gave in and stopped all lower body training. Remember I was at the point where walking more than a quarter mile or standing more than fifteen minutes would cause my knees to fill up!

I haven't squatted with a barbell since early December except for a couple overhead squats a few weeks ago. My knees got better almost daily with the rest. Pain cleared up after about a month and effusion stopped refilling and actually went down. My left knee remained just a tiny bit puffy and so I finally drained it one more time a couple weeks ago. Got only 6-7 cc of clear fluid which has not come back.

I can squat down with knees forward without pain, though I get uncomfortable if I remain in that position more than a minute. I have walked for miles without causing effusion. I've even jogged here and there. My knees still get a little tired if I carry a lot of stuff as I did during my own move and a friend's recently. But I am largely pain and effusion free now because I've stopped traumatizing my knees with frequent heavy squatting.

This brings me to my problem. I'm obviously afraid that squat and jump training will never be tolerated well by my banged up knees. I figure I should take a page from the American style of training and limit my squats to once per week when I test them again. Clearly I wasn't giving my knees enough time to recover between heavy loading and use. I am also wondering if I should wait another three months before reintroducing squats.

My stated plan is to wait another three months, then do a linear progression with squats only one day per week, using wraps and starting with 1RM - 150 lbs and adding 10 lbs per session till I am doing triples with my old 1RM four months later.

This is actually an old routine popularized by Ricky Dale Crain. Two sets of five regular followed by two sets of five paused with ~50 lbs less. Halfway through switch to triples. Nice limited volume, half of which is paused squats which are must gentler on the knees. Very low frequency. I also like how it starts with very light weights, the kind I'll be forced to use because my squat will likely be around 60% of my old pre-layoff max (It was after my last layoff of several weeks).

really glad to hear about the knees healing up man.. pretty crazy how wrecked your knees were with all that draining going on.. stay healthy.

as for what to do... all i know is you should start out VERY slow. maybe even less than 150.. bodyqweight, 45, and 95 for 3-4 weeks, progress very slow, keep frequency low, and just feel it out.. i wouldnt worry about any goals for now other than figuring out if you can progress slow & squat pain/effusion free.. the last thing you want to do is jump in to 150 & have a severe response, imo.

pC man

Gary

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Re: Rest Cures Effusion
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2012, 09:06:03 am »
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as for what to do... all i know is you should start out VERY slow. maybe even less than 150.. bodyqweight, 45, and 95 for 3-4 weeks, progress very slow, keep frequency low, and just feel it out.. i wouldnt worry about any goals for now other than figuring out if you can progress slow & squat pain/effusion free.. the last thing you want to do is jump in to 150 & have a severe response, imo.

pC man

Oh yeah, I should have mentioned that I plan to break back in really slow. Not work up to my current max the first day like I might have done in the past. Bodyweight first, then the bar, then 95, then 135, then 165 over the course of a month or so.

I guess my question is how long to take to build up my knees before even trying to do an actual routine again. Do I spend a month just doing bodyweight for reps? Then make a jump in weight every week: the bar, 95, 135, 165? Do I wait three more months to even begin bodyweight squats for reps, then spend three to six months doing just those??

I have no idea how much longer to wait and then how long to keep it light and build up resilience in my knees' connective tissue. Any suggestions would be very welcome.
Height: 5'9.5"
Wingspan: 6'4"
Standing Reach Barefoot: 7'10"
Weight: 175 lbs
Standing Vertical Jump: 29"
Running Vertical Jump Bilateral: 30.5"
Running Vertical Jump, Unilateral: 25"
Standing Broad Jump: 9'3"
Beltless High Bar Squat: 365
Beltless Conventional Deadlift: 450
Low Bar Squat w/ Belt (in USAPL raw): 418
Sumo Deadlift w/ Belt (in USAPL raw): 506

Gary

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Re: Rest Cures Effusion
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2012, 11:23:48 am »
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I hate the American style of squatting once per week also. But dammit, I got jumper's knee in both knees (but heavy in my left knee) and gave in.

I'm doing 5/3/1 now. You should look into that. Slow, consistent gains.

A few months ago I read a quote from some Russian or Eastern European coach who claimed that those high frequency/high volume routines weren't meant for regular people. Those routines were meant to separate potential champions from also-rans. Those with the potential -- i.e. superior recovery ability -- to win medals thrived on the stuff. Those without the potential eventually burned out.

Quite honestly I'm surprised that I lasted as long as I did.

Not to say that high frequency/high volume can't produce results. This stuff works so well that I was afraid that anything else would be a waste of time! But it ahs to used with the trainee's capacity in mind. I got greedy and used Smolov repeatedly almost back to back multiple times over two years. Slow and steady with the occasional bout of high frequency/high intensity would probably have kept me from developing this chronic joint inflammation and resulting pain and effusion. More frequent use of back off weeks also makes a lot of sense. So does adjusting training to account for other factors, i.e. cutting back on squats when also jumping or doing the classic lifts.

Right now, I'm using the fairly gentle "Russian" Squat Routine for bench, making great gains doing it thrice per week. But I'm only doing the building volume part and resetting after getting to 6x6 and 5x5. I'm also not doing any lower body work so more recovery can be devoted to bench. When I start squatting again. I'll just do twice per week benching with one light day and squatting (very light at first) on that light day. And I'm interspersing these 3-week building volume cycles with back off weeks right now.

Height: 5'9.5"
Wingspan: 6'4"
Standing Reach Barefoot: 7'10"
Weight: 175 lbs
Standing Vertical Jump: 29"
Running Vertical Jump Bilateral: 30.5"
Running Vertical Jump, Unilateral: 25"
Standing Broad Jump: 9'3"
Beltless High Bar Squat: 365
Beltless Conventional Deadlift: 450
Low Bar Squat w/ Belt (in USAPL raw): 418
Sumo Deadlift w/ Belt (in USAPL raw): 506

Raptor

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Re: Rest Cures Effusion
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2012, 01:48:08 pm »
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Well high frequency squatting sure did increase my squat. Now the question is - is this good for athleticism? It will increase your squat, but I'm not sure if that's not ONLY movement efficiency improvements in the squat and that will not help you on the field. However, using heavier weights again and again will improve your body's explosiveness afterall, maybe even without increases in muscle (stronger neural signals).

PointerRyan

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Re: Rest Cures Effusion
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2012, 08:21:40 am »
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whats with this 5/3/1 thing i see ppl talking about?

Dreyth

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Re: Rest Cures Effusion
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2012, 01:25:42 pm »
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Well high frequency squatting sure did increase my squat. Now the question is - is this good for athleticism? It will increase your squat, but I'm not sure if that's not ONLY movement efficiency improvements in the squat and that will not help you on the field. However, using heavier weights again and again will improve your body's explosiveness afterall, maybe even without increases in muscle (stronger neural signals).

Also, lifting with heavier weights will lead to more muscle growth than otherwise anyway.
If you squat 350x3... then you're able to go up to 350x6 strictly through neural gains, you'll build more muscle that way.
And yes, the explosiveness part - I never thought about that. Probably will also help you release more testosterone or gH maybe, who knows (maybe if we were younger?).






whats with this 5/3/1 thing i see ppl talking about?

Excellent program with a lot of room for tampering with accessory work and stuff. Not for beginners or early intermediates.
It's by powerlifter jim wendler, although you can tune it to fit bodybuilding needs or olympic lifting needs if you want:
http://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/hardcore-look-at-jim-wendlers-5-3-1-powerlifting-system.html
I read the entire book (~100pgs, but a light read) a few hours after I got it and I loved it. There's a few things I disagree with, like the de-load. Seems to be far too light for me. But I searched up and found out he has new de-load parameters.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2012, 01:28:09 pm by Dreyth »
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mattyg35

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Re: Rest Cures Effusion
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2012, 11:35:15 pm »
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I don't know if everyone or some of the people that do 5/3/1 do this or not, but I cycle the 5/3/1/deload, so that in a given cycle it would look like

Squat - 5
Military - 3
Deadlift - 1
Bench - Deload

Then next week is

Bench - 5
Squat - 3
Military - 1
Deadlift - Deload

Then
Deadlift - 5
Bench - 3
Squat - 1
Military - Deload

Then
Military - 5
Deadlift - 3
Bench - 1
Squat - Deload

I find this more manageable and fun rather than having all 3x5 one week, then 3x3, and so on.

Dreyth

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Re: Rest Cures Effusion
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2012, 03:08:33 pm »
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I don't know if everyone or some of the people that do 5/3/1 do this or not, but I cycle the 5/3/1/deload, so that in a given cycle it would look like

Squat - 5
Military - 3
Deadlift - 1
Bench - Deload

Then next week is

Bench - 5
Squat - 3
Military - 1
Deadlift - Deload

Then
Deadlift - 5
Bench - 3
Squat - 1
Military - Deload

Then
Military - 5
Deadlift - 3
Bench - 1
Squat - Deload

I find this more manageable and fun rather than having all 3x5 one week, then 3x3, and so on.

This actually looks pretty cool. I'm doing it the regular way for now, but that way has "5/3/1 written all over it" lol.

i guess ill check out ur log
edit: can't find it. Do you have one? how's 5/3/1 working for u so far?
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Gary

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Re: Rest Cures Effusion
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2012, 04:31:55 pm »
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So I'd been doing well by squatting 3 times every 2 weeks (Monday-Friday-Wednesday) and slowly upping my numbers from bodyweight to bar to 95 to 135 and recently to 175.

A couple days after I squatted 175, however, I messed around with a couple power snatches, power jerks and front squats. I'm talking reall light stuff. 135 and 145 singles with powersnatch, 175 with front squat + jerk.

The next day my knees were achy, but it felt more like quad pain versus actual joint pain. Two days later (today) and I see that a little effusion has crept back into the left knee.

I'm doubling up on my compression wraps to fight it. And I'm trying not to panic. I've spent a month squatting lightly without incident. I'm guessing that this is a transient problem that can be handled with conservative methods (compression instead of draining) and that it's because I simply cannot use my knees as frequently as I used to.

As always, opinions are welcome.
Height: 5'9.5"
Wingspan: 6'4"
Standing Reach Barefoot: 7'10"
Weight: 175 lbs
Standing Vertical Jump: 29"
Running Vertical Jump Bilateral: 30.5"
Running Vertical Jump, Unilateral: 25"
Standing Broad Jump: 9'3"
Beltless High Bar Squat: 365
Beltless Conventional Deadlift: 450
Low Bar Squat w/ Belt (in USAPL raw): 418
Sumo Deadlift w/ Belt (in USAPL raw): 506

Dreyth

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Re: Rest Cures Effusion
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2012, 05:28:24 pm »
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^^ Goodluck!
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Gary

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Re: Rest Cures Effusion
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2012, 07:55:33 pm »
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really glad to hear about the knees healing up man.. pretty crazy how wrecked your knees were with all that draining going on.. stay healthy.

as for what to do... all i know is you should start out VERY slow. maybe even less than 150.. bodyqweight, 45, and 95 for 3-4 weeks, progress very slow, keep frequency low, and just feel it out.. i wouldnt worry about any goals for now other than figuring out if you can progress slow & squat pain/effusion free.. the last thing you want to do is jump in to 150 & have a severe response, imo.

pC man

You were very right. Slow is the key. I managed to stick with bodyweight to 95 for a few weeks. I even did 135 and 175 over two weeks without incident. I really think it was loaded articulation (those super light front squats) so soon after the super light back squats that caused this latest episode. Got to keep frequency really low for the foreseeable future. Squat as often as an old school American powerlifter instead of a Russian weightlifter.
Height: 5'9.5"
Wingspan: 6'4"
Standing Reach Barefoot: 7'10"
Weight: 175 lbs
Standing Vertical Jump: 29"
Running Vertical Jump Bilateral: 30.5"
Running Vertical Jump, Unilateral: 25"
Standing Broad Jump: 9'3"
Beltless High Bar Squat: 365
Beltless Conventional Deadlift: 450
Low Bar Squat w/ Belt (in USAPL raw): 418
Sumo Deadlift w/ Belt (in USAPL raw): 506