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Introduction Area => Introduce Yourself => Topic started by: Cloud3205 on November 21, 2010, 02:52:51 am
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Hi everyone,
My name is Brandon and I am on this forum to try to con Lance into helping me with my training, haha. I would like to dunk a basketball though and jump higher after that and see what happens.
Training history: I started off like many unfortunate souls with Air Alert. I moved on to the jump manual which was initially a good program but lacks customization. Although Jacob is available for consultation, he is not always accessible and lacks basic variety in his program (the jump manual is merely a template). I have no history of injury. I am currently following the vertfreak system and trying to work with Lance to make sure I am programming everything properly.
Stats: I need about an inch more to dunk a basketball. I can alley-oop a basketball right now. I am 6'1" and have a standing vertical of 30". My running vertical is not much higher because I lack the requisite form otherwise I think I'd be able to get one down already. I am 180 pounds and 9 to 9.5% bodyfat. I would kill a man in hand to hand combat for an extra inch on my vertical.
I am posting my log here for Lance to review. I used to squat only to parallel but now I perform full (A2G) squats. I used to romanian deadlift but now do straight leg deadlifts so some of my initial tests on these lifts might be a little low based on unfamiliarity with the lifts. Anyway, here is my log.
I have my Monday and Friday workout here but I also do 4x4 running vertical jumps, core, and upper body wednesday, 4x4 running vertical jumps and box jump workout A on Thursday, and 4x4 jumps and core on Sunday. I take Tuesday and Saturday off. Everything below is listed in a reps x sets (as opposed to sets x reps) format.
Week 1 - Monday
8 x 100meters sprints
Full squat 3 reps x 8 sets - 205 pounds
Bulgarian split squats 3x5 - 20 pounds (each hand, each leg)
Stiff leg deadlifts 5 x 5 - 185 pounds
Week 1 - Friday
Stiff leg deadlifts - 5 x5 185 pounds
Box squats 6x4(60%) - 160 pounds
Hang cleans 3x5 - 135 pounds
Power snatch 2x4 - 75 pounds
Jump squat 4x4 - 95 pounds
Week 2 - Monday
8 x 100meters sprints
Full squat 3 reps x 8 sets - 210 pounds
Split squats 3x5 - 25 pounds
Stiff leg deadlifts 5 x 5 - 185 pounds
Week 2 - Friday
Stiff leg deadlifts - 5 x5 190 pounds
Box squats 6x4(60%) - 160 pounds
Hang cleans 3x5 - 135 pounds
Power snatch 2x4 - 75 pounds
Jump squat 4x4 - 95 pounds
Week 3 - Monday
8 x 100meters sprints
Full squat 3 reps x 8 sets - 215 pounds
Split squats 3x5 - 30 pounds
Stiff leg deadlifts 5 x 5 - 195 pounds
Week 3 - Friday
Stiff leg deadlifts - 5 x5 205 pounds
Box squats 6x4(60%) - 160 pounds
Hang cleans 3x5 - 140 pounds
Power snatch 2x4 - 80 pounds
Jump squat 4x4 - 95 pounds
Notes: I am just concerned about setting my squat percentages during weeks 6-10 of the intermediate strength based vertfreak template and would like help doing that. I will update this log weekly.
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Hey bud, glad to see you here, go ahead and start a journal in the journal section and I will get your workout adjusted for you. Also, can you train three days per week or only able to get to the gym two? Let me know and we will get you set up.
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Hi everyone,
My name is Brandon and I am on this forum to try to con Lance into helping me with my training, haha. I would like to dunk a basketball though and jump higher after that and see what happens.
welcome, no conmen tho ;d
Training history: I started off like many unfortunate souls with Air Alert. I moved on to the jump manual which was initially a good program but lacks customization. Although Jacob is available for consultation, he is not always accessible and lacks basic variety in his program (the jump manual is merely a template). I have no history of injury. I am currently following the vertfreak system and trying to work with Lance to make sure I am programming everything properly.
Stats: I need about an inch more to dunk a basketball. I can alley-oop a basketball right now. I am 6'1" and have a standing vertical of 30". My running vertical is not much higher because I lack the requisite form otherwise I think I'd be able to get one down already. I am 180 pounds and 9 to 9.5% bodyfat. I would kill a man in hand to hand combat for an extra inch on my vertical.
damn one inch, you got that.. you might want to try ingesting caffeine 1x/week prior to your jump sessions, that'll most likely give you that inch, sure it comes from a stimulant (caffeine), but it works nonetheless.. a starbucks coffee shot or, what lance has prescribed to me, a "redline", even though i've never had it, should get you extra amped.. if you have never tried that, it's very useful 1x/week, don't get into the habbit of 3x/week or more though, it'll lose effectiveness..
I am posting my log here for Lance to review. I used to squat only to parallel but now I perform full (A2G) squats. I used to romanian deadlift but now do straight leg deadlifts so some of my initial tests on these lifts might be a little low based on unfamiliarity with the lifts. Anyway, here is my log.
I have my Monday and Friday workout here but I also do 4x4 running vertical jumps, core, and upper body wednesday, 4x4 running vertical jumps and box jump workout A on Thursday, and 4x4 jumps and core on Sunday. I take Tuesday and Saturday off. Everything below is listed in a reps x sets (as opposed to sets x reps) format.
Week 1 - Monday
8 x 100meters sprints
Full squat 3 reps x 8 sets - 205 pounds
Bulgarian split squats 3x5 - 20 pounds (each hand, each leg)
Stiff leg deadlifts 5 x 5 - 185 pounds
Week 1 - Friday
Stiff leg deadlifts - 5 x5 185 pounds
Box squats 6x4(60%) - 160 pounds
Hang cleans 3x5 - 135 pounds
Power snatch 2x4 - 75 pounds
Jump squat 4x4 - 95 pounds
Week 2 - Monday
8 x 100meters sprints
Full squat 3 reps x 8 sets - 210 pounds
Split squats 3x5 - 25 pounds
Stiff leg deadlifts 5 x 5 - 185 pounds
Week 2 - Friday
Stiff leg deadlifts - 5 x5 190 pounds
Box squats 6x4(60%) - 160 pounds
Hang cleans 3x5 - 135 pounds
Power snatch 2x4 - 75 pounds
Jump squat 4x4 - 95 pounds
Week 3 - Monday
8 x 100meters sprints
Full squat 3 reps x 8 sets - 215 pounds
Split squats 3x5 - 30 pounds
Stiff leg deadlifts 5 x 5 - 195 pounds
Week 3 - Friday
Stiff leg deadlifts - 5 x5 205 pounds
Box squats 6x4(60%) - 160 pounds
Hang cleans 3x5 - 140 pounds
Power snatch 2x4 - 80 pounds
Jump squat 4x4 - 95 pounds
Notes: I am just concerned about setting my squat percentages during weeks 6-10 of the intermediate strength based vertfreak template and would like help doing that. I will update this log weekly.
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I would recommended you reevaluate your speed session. It is pretty crazy to ask your body to rattle off 8x 100's at a high intensity in one day. Even an elite sprinter would have trouble with a session like that. Personally I would struggle to over 500m of speed volume in an entire week..
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Thanks for the comments guys. The caffeine sounds like a good idea. I do drink some green tea already but that's most to help promote leanness.
As far as the sprints are concerned, I was using that from the vertfreak template. I talked to Adam Linkenauger about that and he seemed to think it is fine. However, since Lance is more helpful, I am going with his modified program starting Monday which will include no sprints. He put the modified program in the journal section.
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I would recommended you reevaluate your speed session. It is pretty crazy to ask your body to rattle off 8x 100's at a high intensity in one day. Even an elite sprinter would have trouble with a session like that. Personally I would struggle to over 500m of speed volume in an entire week..
agree, unless they are lighter tempo of course, but ya 8 x 100m at 90+% is ridiculously intense and a great way to pull a hammy/hip flexor.
pc
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Thanks for the comments guys. The caffeine sounds like a good idea. I do drink some green tea already but that's most to help promote leanness.
As far as the sprints are concerned, I was using that from the vertfreak template. I talked to Adam Linkenauger about that and he seemed to think it is fine. However, since Lance is more helpful, I am going with his modified program starting Monday which will include no sprints. He put the modified program in the journal section.
Yea, sprints should be part of the dynamic warm up, the last thing you do before workout, something like 6 sets of 10 yd sprints/starts for now. If you need help making the warm up let me know in the journal.
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Hmmm, do you know why those sprints would be in the vertfreak template like that? They are in there....
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Hmmm, do you know why those sprints would be in the vertfreak template like that? They are in there....
are you supposed to run them at max effort, or at some percentage of max effort?
what's the guidelines (intensity, rest interval between sprints, etc) for those 100m sprints?
peace
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I emailed Adam on this and basically it's full speed sprints on Monday with a walk back rest and 75% sprints on Fridays. I have the relevant portion of the email below followed by the full email if you want to see that. In the template it says to walk back for a recovery. The question I was asking was on week 1 which only had 80 meter sprints x 8, but they are increased to 100 meters in week 2 and on.
Excerpt:
3) In the "Intermediate explosive" program you have listed 8x80 uphill sprints before a workout essentially based on squatting and stiff leg deadlifts. I see no % max listed on the uphill sprints so does that mean you should sprint at full speed? Wouldn't sprinting 80 meters uphill 8 times at full speed wear you out before squatting?
Anything under 100m will be at 100%, with near full recovery between sprints. Proper recovery, and your squat should be fine.
Full email:
I just bought a copy of vertfreak. I have a few questions...
1) In choosing between the "strength based" and "explosive based" workouts the primary test seems to be subtracting a running jump from a standing vertical jump. I have really bad form on my jump and always have and my running jump has consistently been 2" higher than my standing jump. For example, when my standing vertical was 20" my running vertical was 22." Now my standing vertical is 30" and my running vertical is 32". I am trying to work on my form but I don't know if I can do it without a coach physically present...My question is, should I always just select the "explosive based" workout based on the test provided?
Go on the test provided.. If you feel that form is really the deciding factor in WHY your numbers are what they are, then go with Strength.
2) In the program I don't see any practice jumping (just doing regular approach jumps) scheduled into the workouts, at least not in "intermediate explosive". Everything I have ever read says that you should practice jumping. I am wondering how often you think you should practice jumping built in the confines of your workout and if you could give a set s and rep ranges.
Practice jumps come into play during phase 3, as there is no use "practicing approaches" when you are out of shape/not in the shape we want you at... You can also do practice jumps after phase 3 for a couple weeks to concentrate on form before getting into another cycle.
3) In the "Intermediate explosive" program you have listed 8x80 uphill sprints before a workout essentially based on squatting and stiff leg deadlifts. I see no % max listed on the uphill sprints so does that mean you should sprint at full speed? Wouldn't sprinting 80 meters uphill 8 times at full speed wear you out before squatting?
Anything under 100m will be at 100%, with near full recovery between sprints. Proper recovery, and your squat should be fine.
4) I see no discussion of post-activation potentiation in the vertfreak program. I was wondering if you recommend doing altitude drops or depth jumps in between sets of squats...
Phase II and Phase III should have drops and jumps for you, but these will take place in the workout portion prior to weights, I personally don't recommend DJs between squatting unless you are on a VERY light explosive phasing.
5) Are there only 6 workouts? Basically I see i. Beginner strength based ii. Beginner explosive based iii. intermediate strength based iv. intermediate explosive based v. advanced strength based vi. advanced explosive based.
For weight training that is correct, but there are three combo's available (BW/Medball/Weights) and also the program obviously will base itself on your strength numbers. I think you will be pleased with the periodized training system.
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I emailed Adam on this and basically it's full speed sprints on Monday with a walk back rest and 75% sprints on Fridays. I have the relevant portion of the email below followed by the full email if you want to see that. In the template it says to walk back for a recovery. The question I was asking was on week 1 which only had 80 meter sprints x 8, but they are increased to 100 meters in week 2 and on.
Excerpt:
3) In the "Intermediate explosive" program you have listed 8x80 uphill sprints before a workout essentially based on squatting and stiff leg deadlifts. I see no % max listed on the uphill sprints so does that mean you should sprint at full speed? Wouldn't sprinting 80 meters uphill 8 times at full speed wear you out before squatting?
Anything under 100m will be at 100%, with near full recovery between sprints. Proper recovery, and your squat should be fine.
Full email:
I just bought a copy of vertfreak. I have a few questions...
1) In choosing between the "strength based" and "explosive based" workouts the primary test seems to be subtracting a running jump from a standing vertical jump. I have really bad form on my jump and always have and my running jump has consistently been 2" higher than my standing jump. For example, when my standing vertical was 20" my running vertical was 22." Now my standing vertical is 30" and my running vertical is 32". I am trying to work on my form but I don't know if I can do it without a coach physically present...My question is, should I always just select the "explosive based" workout based on the test provided?
Go on the test provided.. If you feel that form is really the deciding factor in WHY your numbers are what they are, then go with Strength.
2) In the program I don't see any practice jumping (just doing regular approach jumps) scheduled into the workouts, at least not in "intermediate explosive". Everything I have ever read says that you should practice jumping. I am wondering how often you think you should practice jumping built in the confines of your workout and if you could give a set s and rep ranges.
Practice jumps come into play during phase 3, as there is no use "practicing approaches" when you are out of shape/not in the shape we want you at... You can also do practice jumps after phase 3 for a couple weeks to concentrate on form before getting into another cycle.
3) In the "Intermediate explosive" program you have listed 8x80 uphill sprints before a workout essentially based on squatting and stiff leg deadlifts. I see no % max listed on the uphill sprints so does that mean you should sprint at full speed? Wouldn't sprinting 80 meters uphill 8 times at full speed wear you out before squatting?
Anything under 100m will be at 100%, with near full recovery between sprints. Proper recovery, and your squat should be fine.
4) I see no discussion of post-activation potentiation in the vertfreak program. I was wondering if you recommend doing altitude drops or depth jumps in between sets of squats...
Phase II and Phase III should have drops and jumps for you, but these will take place in the workout portion prior to weights, I personally don't recommend DJs between squatting unless you are on a VERY light explosive phasing.
5) Are there only 6 workouts? Basically I see i. Beginner strength based ii. Beginner explosive based iii. intermediate strength based iv. intermediate explosive based v. advanced strength based vi. advanced explosive based.
For weight training that is correct, but there are three combo's available (BW/Medball/Weights) and also the program obviously will base itself on your strength numbers. I think you will be pleased with the periodized training system.
8x80m at 100%, even up a hill, is pretty crazy for a beginner, I would scratch that and go with some shorter stuff at a much lower volume. I highly doubt you will be able to maintain intensity for 8x80m, if you do it, think about doing them on a grassy hill, that'll go a long way to preserving your legs.. walkback for the rest interval!?! that is also rather crazy, General rule of thumb when doing a speed workout is 1 min recovery for every 10m @ 100%.
I personally think a more appropriate workout to start out with would be along the lines of 10x10m or 6x20m, definitely under 150m of speed volume to start with.. for hills something like 5x30m.
Also unless your looking to make general fitness gains or work on speed endurance qualities, i think 80m is a little too far for hills.
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Yeah I think Charlie Francis (RIP) would have an aneurysm if he saw 8x80 recommended as a way to build explosiveness and/or speed (EDIT: Except for someone already highly trained and already well into their training year). Seems pretty retarded to me.
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Hey friends, this was not my idea. I was just following what Adam Linkenauger suggested to me. Above is a copy of his email. I thought that it was too intensive when I saw it, but please know that every person using a Vertfreak intermediate based program is told to do those sprints. I am thinking about asking for a refund...
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I responded to some forums on the Vertfreak site over the last few weeks because I just finished the intermediate strength program. I gained maybe a quarter of an inch over the 12 weeks and I think I was severely overtraining- not just from the sprints but from the length and volume of the workouts overall. Some people on there were criticizing me, making it sound like I didn't work hard enough or my recovery habits (sleep, diet, etc.) were poor, so it's nice to see that my claims of overtraining might be valid. Most people on the VF forums said they love the program and got great results from it.
The sprints were usually twice a week, once something like "10x100m Uphill sprints light jog down recovery" and once something like "10x125m light hill incline sprints (70% max speed/above a jog pace) Walk back recovery".
You can always ask for a refund and I'll sell you my copy of it cheap, since I'm done with it. Maybe I should ask for a refund too but I don't think Adam is very happy with me right now, lol.
And since I just joined here, I'll give a quick intro. I'm Craig, I'm 33, 5'8", 155 lbs, and have usually been into endurance sports. I've accomplished lots of my goals over the years such as bicycling across the USA and bicycling 200 miles in a day, running a marathon in my target time, and getting my bench press up to 200 pounds. I've shifted a little bit over the last 2 years to try to get my running vertical leap up to 30" to touch a 10' hoop. It's something I've always wanted even though I haven't played basketball in about 10 years. It was about 28" back in college, 25" when I started working on it again last year, and now 28" again. I used VJB and some similar workouts over the last year and a half to get it back there but I'm now at a plateau. I'm going to start Vertical Mastery over the weekend and Jack told me about this thread after I was complaining to him about how tired I was after VF. He's been very helpful and friendly and I'm looking forward to getting going with Vertical Mastery.
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One More Inch
That's what she said! :highfive:
Couldn't resist!
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Craig,
I didn't fully do all the sprints because I thought it would lead to overtraining. I started talking to Lance before I got into weeks 6-10 because those weeks looked like they would lead to further overtraining. Luckily he is helping me. Lance really hasn't commented on the numerous sprints in the vertfreak program, so I'm not really sure what he thinks, but he currently doesn't have me sprinting before workouts. I would say that it almost certainly leads to overtraining. As far as Vertical Mastery is concerned, I think Jack will be a great resource for you. I think you should ask for a refund from Adam and also explain the sprinting volume to Jack and see if he thinks that leads to overtraining. Forget it if Adam doesn't' like you, it's his job to sell a quality product. Secondly, I would be mad at him if I wasted 12 weeks of my training life on a program that just overtrains you. I noticed a number of grammatical errors in the vertfreak program as well as broken links to exercises. I don't really mind that so much, but I am eventually going to get some more feedback on the sprints and ask for a refund if it is clearly out of line. If there is some sort of disagreement on the topic then I will not ask for a refund. However, every single vertfreak copy sold has 10x100 meter uphill sprints with a "jog back recovery" before a full workout that includes max effort squats, deadlifts, and split squats. Some talented athletes on this forum seem to think that it is clearly overtraining.
Finally, you should realize that your other accomplishments were endurance based activities. I am not trying to discount what you have done, I am just saying that I think becoming more explosive involves a different kind of workout. There are girls who don't train very hard who run marathons, for example. How many girls do you know who can dunk? Probably none. Make sure you tell Jack how much cardio you are doing, as if you are playing pickup games too often it could ruin your results.
I cannot clearly define what is reasonable to gain over a period of time, but gaining 1/4 an inch over 12 weeks means there is something going on with your training, diet, rest, or a combination of the three. I cannot definitively say that the sprinting and lifting volume was the sole reason for your overtraining because I was not there to see you train, but I think that at least the sprinting portion of the program is overdone. As you progress the inches will not come as fast, but if you train explosively (not necessarily hard) for 12 weeks then the results will come. I think it sucks that Linkenauger isn't accessible, he didn't answer 3 of my emails. He only answered my first email.
Were you able to put any weight on your squats during your workouts?
JoeJoe,
She may have said that but it wasn't to me.
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Brandon,
I have some of the same complaints that you have about VertFreak. Adam didn't reply to any of my 3 emails to his various email addresses. On the VF forum, he responded to my complaint by saying, "Every email has been responded too on our support account." I found some of the errors pretty annoying and confusing, such as which warmup exercises to do. I'll think about asking for a refund in the next few days.
I mostly agree with your thoughts on my other accomplishments. I had mentioned them on the VF forums and here to say that I'm not afraid of hard work and am committed to achieving my goals and that I have definitely shifted my priority from endurance activities to explosiveness. Most of the endurance stuff was a few years ago. Yes, there are people who run marathons and don't train too hard and only want to finish in 6 hours or so (the girls that you mention, lol), but that wasn't the case for me and I was definitely working hard. I haven't done much cardio in the last few months and I'm not planning on doing any while doing Vertical Mastery so that shouldn't be an issue.
I haven't checked my max squat in a while but I don't think it gained much, if any. I'm doing my Vertical Mastery pre-tests today and tomorrow. Did the jumping ones this morning. I did them back in August when I was trying to decide between VF and Vertical Mastery. They're about the same as they were back then- some of them are up 1". I'll do the box squat and deadlift tomorrow.
Looking forward to reading about your progress.
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Hi Craig,
I wasn't trying to discount your accomplishments at all, I was just trying to say that explosiveness vs. endurance is a big issue. I was just suggesting that if you are feeling sore or tired, just take an extra day off and move everything in your workouts up a day. Pushing through a workout will have negative effects. One way to determine if you are overtraining is if your squat is not improving either in reps or in weight (you need not increase a 1rm, it can be a 5rm, for example).
As far as the squat is concerned, that is going to be one of the leading predictors of whether or not your vertical will increase. If at a loss as how to increase your vertical, you can always increase the strength of your prime movers (glutes, hamstrings, posterior chain) and then the rate of force with which the strength can be applied. Basically, improving your vertical jump comes downs to strength x quickness. If you are moving up your squat max and then increase how quickly you can produce that force (doing olympic lifts, plyometrics, etc.) you will increase your vertical. Obviously the optimal level on how to increase these things and the technical nature of the exercises is a much more complex matter...
However, if you aren't moving up your 1rm, 3rm, or 5rm on your squat and other lifts (deadlift, hang snatch, etc.) the base to increase your vertical isn't really there. Your strength is the foundation for vertical jumps (like a motor in a car) and explosive and plyometric exercises are the expression of your newly found strength (like getting a tune up). Lifting too often or being fatigued will just further break down your muscles and make recovery impossible and ruin your progress.
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That all makes sense, but like you say, increasing your lifts isn't always a simple matter.
I heard different opinions on what to do when tired during VertFreak. Some people (including the staff) said push through it as hard as you can and the results will come. I did and they didn't. I never would have worked out that much if the staff and other users didn't encourage it.
On Friday I re-tested my lifts for the Vertical Mastery pre-tests. My box squat was about the same as it was 3 months ago (215 pounds x 6 reps at a body weight of 155) but my deadlift was up about 30 pounds to 295 x 3 reps. Jack put together a Vertical Mastery program and it's not much weight lifting- much more jumping exercises to work on reactive and explosive strength. I did a core workout yesterday and the first plyometric workout today and they went well- not too long, moderately difficult, and pretty fun.