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Performance Area => Nutrition & Supplementation => Topic started by: KokoyPinoy on February 15, 2011, 12:18:26 pm

Title: Creatine or Whey Protein?
Post by: KokoyPinoy on February 15, 2011, 12:18:26 pm
As a beginner who wants to test supplementation. What's better for me, Creatine or Whey Protein? I'm 17yrs. old. What more informations should I add so that someone could give me an advice regarding this?
Title: Re: Creatine or Whey Protein?
Post by: ARowe on February 15, 2011, 12:51:46 pm
If you can only do one I would do a whey protein isolate or whey mix (isolate + concentrate). Whey is the most basic supplement, a quick digesting protein to take after your workouts or to "supplement" with your meals throughout the day.

Creatine is a bit more advanced imo, the average broski who works out doesn't need to take it but it is good for athletes. Creatine increases ATP production which is utilized during anaerobic activities, such as... vert, low rep weightlifting, sprinting, etc. Contrary to popular broscience you don't need to "cycle" creatine, you can take it forever, just like whey protein. You should notice some nice strength increases if you start creatine.
Title: Re: Creatine or Whey Protein?
Post by: DamienZ on February 15, 2011, 02:41:07 pm
If you can only do one I would do a whey protein isolate or whey mix (isolate + concentrate). Whey is the most basic supplement, a quick digesting protein to take after your workouts or to "supplement" with your meals throughout the day.

Creatine is a bit more advanced imo, the average broski who works out doesn't need to take it but it is good for athletes. Creatine increases ATP production which is utilized during anaerobic activities, such as... vert, low rep weightlifting, sprinting, etc. Contrary to popular broscience you don't need to "cycle" creatine, you can take it forever, just like whey protein. You should notice some nice strength increases if you start creatine.

why?

...

just get the cheapest one with a good taste that you like!
Title: Re: Creatine or Whey Protein?
Post by: ARowe on February 16, 2011, 12:43:43 am
If you can only do one I would do a whey protein isolate or whey mix (isolate + concentrate). Whey is the most basic supplement, a quick digesting protein to take after your workouts or to "supplement" with your meals throughout the day.

Creatine is a bit more advanced imo, the average broski who works out doesn't need to take it but it is good for athletes. Creatine increases ATP production which is utilized during anaerobic activities, such as... vert, low rep weightlifting, sprinting, etc. Contrary to popular broscience you don't need to "cycle" creatine, you can take it forever, just like whey protein. You should notice some nice strength increases if you start creatine.

why?

...

just get the cheapest one with a good taste that you like!


Pure concentrate is the lowest grade shit. Plus the fact that the study where they found a bunch of protein powders had traces of metal in them, most of those were the popular concentrates (Muscle Milk etc).
Title: Re: Creatine or Whey Protein?
Post by: Cloud3205 on February 16, 2011, 01:36:56 am
Get both, I would get a casein protein as well.  Make sure you are working out optimally before you start supplementing (e.g. moving up your weights) otherwise you will be just wasting your supplements.
Title: Re: Creatine or Whey Protein?
Post by: KokoyPinoy on February 16, 2011, 09:24:16 am
Ow, i asked this because a friend of mine said that when a beginner trainee, like me, consumes whey protein, its effect will be minimal because our muscles are not that burned. Because whey protein is to fast absorbed by our body some of it will not be consumed after working out. He said that it is more appropriate for body builders than for athletes. I don't know if that's true that's why I'm asking here what's better.

So it is better to take isolate or whey protein mix than creatine. For now.
Title: Re: Creatine or Whey Protein?
Post by: LanceSTS on February 16, 2011, 10:09:32 am
Ow, i asked this because a friend of mine said that when a beginner trainee, like me, consumes whey protein, its effect will be minimal because our muscles are not that burned. Because whey protein is to fast absorbed by our body some of it will not be consumed after working out. He said that it is more appropriate for body builders than for athletes. I don't know if that's true that's why I'm asking here what's better.

Your friend is wrong.

Quote
So it is better to take isolate or whey protein mix than creatine. For now.

THEY BOTH DO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS.  If you can only afford one then go with the protein for sure, but thats like asking whats better, a hammer or a screw driver.  

Title: Re: Creatine or Whey Protein?
Post by: ARowe on February 16, 2011, 10:47:59 am
Ow, i asked this because a friend of mine said that when a beginner trainee, like me, consumes whey protein, its effect will be minimal because our muscles are not that burned. Because whey protein is to fast absorbed by our body some of it will not be consumed after working out. He said that it is more appropriate for body builders than for athletes. I don't know if that's true that's why I'm asking here what's better.

So it is better to take isolate or whey protein mix than creatine. For now.



Sounds like your friend has a degree in broscience.
Title: Re: Creatine or Whey Protein?
Post by: DamienZ on February 16, 2011, 10:48:29 am
If you can only do one I would do a whey protein isolate or whey mix (isolate + concentrate). Whey is the most basic supplement, a quick digesting protein to take after your workouts or to "supplement" with your meals throughout the day.

Creatine is a bit more advanced imo, the average broski who works out doesn't need to take it but it is good for athletes. Creatine increases ATP production which is utilized during anaerobic activities, such as... vert, low rep weightlifting, sprinting, etc. Contrary to popular broscience you don't need to "cycle" creatine, you can take it forever, just like whey protein. You should notice some nice strength increases if you start creatine.

why?

...

just get the cheapest one with a good taste that you like!


Pure concentrate is the lowest grade shit. Plus the fact that the study where they found a bunch of protein powders had traces of metal in them, most of those were the popular concentrates (Muscle Milk etc).

dude, its the same protein! isolate is made from concentrate and hydrolysate is made from isolate.
Title: Re: Creatine or Whey Protein?
Post by: Dreyth on February 16, 2011, 12:29:05 pm
Purity and the process of purifying matters.

Isn't casein hydrolosate even FASTER absorbing than whey? Thoughts on that, guys?
Title: Re: Creatine or Whey Protein?
Post by: DamienZ on February 16, 2011, 12:38:32 pm
Purity and the process of purifying matters.

Isn't casein hydrolosate even FASTER absorbing than whey? Thoughts on that, guys?

absorption rate doesnt matter at all...
Title: Re: Creatine or Whey Protein?
Post by: LanceSTS on February 16, 2011, 01:16:29 pm
Purity and the process of purifying matters.

Isn't casein hydrolosate even FASTER absorbing than whey? Thoughts on that, guys?


 Yep,( whey) hydrolysates are a faster absorbing form .  

  " Hydrolysates are predigested, partially hydrolyzed whey proteins that, as a consequence, are more easily absorbed, but their cost is generally higher. [8] Highly-hydrolysed whey may be less allergenic than other forms of whey. [10] They are very bitter in taste.”

  The only time I use the hydrolysate is post workout, a slower absorbtion rate (casein/isolate) is more beneficial during the rest of the day as you dont need or want the quick absorbtion during these times.  One thing I have noticed in my experience with it is that more advanced lifters and athletes seem to love the hydrolysate pwo and notice a difference, most of the beginner/intermediate level dont.  

Whether or not its the absorbtion rate or simply the purity, I and many others notice a difference enough to be valid for us.   For athletes undertaking multiple training sessions per day, or people who have digestion issues with typical whey proteins, the hydrolysate can be beneficial imo.  
Title: Re: Creatine or Whey Protein?
Post by: Dreyth on February 16, 2011, 02:40:20 pm
Purity and the process of purifying matters.

Isn't casein hydrolosate even FASTER absorbing than whey? Thoughts on that, guys?

absorption rate doesnt matter at all...

That I know. In fact, I take weightgainer with a mix of a bunch of crap that's slowly absorbing


Other stuff i don't understand: The "mix" of whey and casein to create a "time release formula." You don't get the best of both worlds. Whey will not absorb as fast as whey if you're taking whey+casein at the same time. The casein will slow it down... lol

And yes, whey isolate gets absorbed faster, and hydrolyzed whey isolate, even faster, but I thought "new research" showed that casein hydrolosate was faster than both. Whatever, who cares because:

How did the notion that you need to absorb protein as fast as possible (and therefore choose whey) after a workout get so popular? Where are the sources for this? I've heard it a bunch of times but never saw studies. Another thing, I remember reading that whey doesn't hit peak absorption rates until about 45-min to 60-min after ingesting it... so wouldn't it make more sense to take it at the start of the workout, so you're hitting that peak rate as you finish off? I know that more and more people are taking pre- and post-workout whey now, but sometimes people *only* take post-workout for whatever reason when they could easily take it *only* pre-workout.

Another thing I read (lol i need to bring in some sources cuz I'm just rambling) is that a high amino acid profile in your blood isn't what causes muscle synthesis, but the actual spike in the level of amino acids itself... as an analogy, it's about the acceleration, not the top speed. So what some people were recommending was alternating whey with casein to get greater (as in amount and in frequency) amino acid spikes throughout the day. Sounds like that would make sense to me, but not sure why it's the spike that's beneficial instead of the amino acids themselves. I guess maybe it's the body foreseeing a need to build muscle or something in anticipation of higher amino acid levels. Makes sense to me!

Gotta find these sources though.
Title: Re: Creatine or Whey Protein?
Post by: DamienZ on February 16, 2011, 04:31:18 pm
absorption rate matters only on an empty stomach, so usually it never matters for anyone
Title: Re: Creatine or Whey Protein?
Post by: KokoyPinoy on February 19, 2011, 12:02:52 am
Ow, i asked this because a friend of mine said that when a beginner trainee, like me, consumes whey protein, its effect will be minimal because our muscles are not that burned. Because whey protein is to fast absorbed by our body some of it will not be consumed after working out. He said that it is more appropriate for body builders than for athletes. I don't know if that's true that's why I'm asking here what's better.

Your friend is wrong.

Quote
So it is better to take isolate or whey protein mix than creatine. For now.

THEY BOTH DO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS.  If you can only afford one then go with the protein for sure, but thats like asking whats better, a hammer or a screw driver.  



Ow thanks, sir lance. Ow, Btw my goal is be more explosive (jump higher) even if that's my goal i should take whey protein? I heard and read that creatine is for more ATP production and explosiveness.
Title: Re: Creatine or Whey Protein?
Post by: LanceSTS on February 19, 2011, 12:15:32 am
Ow, i asked this because a friend of mine said that when a beginner trainee, like me, consumes whey protein, its effect will be minimal because our muscles are not that burned. Because whey protein is to fast absorbed by our body some of it will not be consumed after working out. He said that it is more appropriate for body builders than for athletes. I don't know if that's true that's why I'm asking here what's better.

Your friend is wrong.

Quote
So it is better to take isolate or whey protein mix than creatine. For now.

THEY BOTH DO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS.  If you can only afford one then go with the protein for sure, but thats like asking whats better, a hammer or a screw driver.  



Ow thanks, sir lance. Ow, Btw my goal is be more explosive (jump higher) even if that's my goal i should take whey protein? I heard and read that creatine is for more ATP production and explosiveness.

Yea, whey protein is going to help you in many ways, its very rare to see athletes who get adequate protein intake without supplementing with protein shakes.  They are more of a "food" than a supplement really for an athlete.  Creatine is great for explosive/power type activities and sports, if you can get both thats a good way to go.  If you can only get one or the other definitely go with the whey protein though.
Title: Re: Creatine or Whey Protein?
Post by: KokoyPinoy on February 19, 2011, 11:03:33 pm
Thank you very much! O wait, sir lance .I will definitely buy whey protein but I'm on my 11'th week (recovery and explosiveness) on the VF 2.0 and asking if i have the money to buy creatine now and will have many to buy whey protein after 2 weeks (start of VF intermediate phase 1 which is high intensity 5x5 squat etc.). Should I buy creatine now and save for whey protein for the start of the next cycle of VF?
Title: Re: Creatine or Whey Protein?
Post by: LanceSTS on February 20, 2011, 03:13:59 am
Thank you very much! O wait, sir lance .I will definitely buy whey protein but I'm on my 11'th week (recovery and explosiveness) on the VF 2.0 and asking if i have the money to buy creatine now and will have many to buy whey protein after 2 weeks (start of VF intermediate phase 1 which is high intensity 5x5 squat etc.). Should I buy creatine now and save for whey protein for the start of the next cycle of VF?

 The most important thing right now is to make sure youre getting adequate protein intake, taking creatine wont combat an inadequate protein intake.  Once your protein intake is up to par then adding creatine is a good idea and can be helpful.
Title: Re: Creatine or Whey Protein?
Post by: KokoyPinoy on February 20, 2011, 10:09:15 am
Sorry for the incessant questions.  :D Okay ,protein intake first then creatine. Do you have any link, sir lance, on how much of protein per lbs of body weight should I take during the day and after or before work-out? Or a guideline on how much protein intake should I take?
Title: Re: Creatine or Whey Protein?
Post by: LanceSTS on February 20, 2011, 12:36:56 pm
Sorry for the incessant questions.  :D Okay ,protein intake first then creatine. Do you have any link, sir lance, on how much of protein per lbs of body weight should I take during the day and after or before work-out? Or a guideline on how much protein intake should I take?


 Try and get at least 1.5 grams per lb of bw if youre trying to build muscle tissue, 20-30 grams pre workout and 40-60 grams pwo works very well.  5 grams of creatine daily, dont need to follow the "loading" phase on the bottle and you dont need to "cycle" it either.
Title: Re: Creatine or Whey Protein?
Post by: KokoyPinoy on February 20, 2011, 07:51:44 pm
Sorry for the incessant questions.  :D Okay ,protein intake first then creatine. Do you have any link, sir lance, on how much of protein per lbs of body weight should I take during the day and after or before work-out? Or a guideline on how much protein intake should I take?


 Try and get at least 1.5 grams per lb of bw if youre trying to build muscle tissue, 20-30 grams pre workout and 40-60 grams pwo works very well.  5 grams of creatine daily, dont need to follow the "loading" phase on the bottle and you dont need to "cycle" it either.

WOW. :o That's alot. :-X Good bye savings! and hello whey protein!      ;D
Title: Re: Creatine or Whey Protein?
Post by: LanceSTS on February 20, 2011, 08:16:29 pm
Sorry for the incessant questions.  :D Okay ,protein intake first then creatine. Do you have any link, sir lance, on how much of protein per lbs of body weight should I take during the day and after or before work-out? Or a guideline on how much protein intake should I take?


 Try and get at least 1.5 grams per lb of bw if youre trying to build muscle tissue, 20-30 grams pre workout and 40-60 grams pwo works very well.  5 grams of creatine daily, dont need to follow the "loading" phase on the bottle and you dont need to "cycle" it either.

WOW. :o That's alot. :-X Good bye savings! and hello whey protein!      ;D

 The number above was total grams of protein per day, that wont come from strictly whey alone.  Using one shake post workout can work if you make up the extra protein throughout the day in whole foods.  Alot of people find that supplementing with protein shakes actually saves them money when they calculate it all up, they are not spending as much on fast food or more expensive meals and it saves them money in the long run.  My whey protein comes out to about $1 per shake, which substitutes for a meal that would normally cost ~$5.
Title: Re: Creatine or Whey Protein?
Post by: KokoyPinoy on February 20, 2011, 11:34:37 pm
Sorry for the incessant questions.  :D Okay ,protein intake first then creatine. Do you have any link, sir lance, on how much of protein per lbs of body weight should I take during the day and after or before work-out? Or a guideline on how much protein intake should I take?


 Try and get at least 1.5 grams per lb of bw if youre trying to build muscle tissue, 20-30 grams pre workout and 40-60 grams pwo works very well.  5 grams of creatine daily, dont need to follow the "loading" phase on the bottle and you dont need to "cycle" it either.

WOW. :o That's alot. :-X Good bye savings! and hello whey protein!      ;D

 The number above was total grams of protein per day, that wont come from strictly whey alone.  Using one shake post workout can work if you make up the extra protein throughout the day in whole foods.  Alot of people find that supplementing with protein shakes actually saves them money when they calculate it all up, they are not spending as much on fast food or more expensive meals and it saves them money in the long run.  My whey protein comes out to about $1 per shake, which substitutes for a meal that would normally cost ~$5.

Ow! A problem of mine is knowing how much protein a meal has. Is there a table on how much protein beef, fish, pork, etc has? Here in the Phil. food is cheap and almost always our food is home cooked (whole e.g. cafeteria except from fast food chain obviously) and normally costs $1-$1.25. whey protein on the other hand, i think, costs about $50-$70 for 5lbs or 7lbs? . I'm not really sure about this numbers I haven't shop or gone to a mall to check this. My conclusion is.... wait I don't have any conclusion cause I don't know the exact figures. :-X I'll ask my friend when we will go to the mall to check some products. Does anyone have any idea what brand or type of whey protein is the best for me (casein etc)? Given that I could only buy 1 type of protein. Thanks sir lance! I have now a clearer I dead on how to manage my protein intake.

 BTW, here's my sample diet on weekdays. If it is okay that you analyze how much protein i take cause I have no ideaof it. I only know tahat egg has around 5g of protein....

Breakfast--- one egg, 2 slices of ham, 3 cups of rice
10 am--- Omelet Sandwich (2 eggs) around 10g of protein
Lunch--- 2 cups of rice.... one chicken leg and 50g of pork  OR   70-150g(just estimates or one slice of tuna) Fish
2pm--- Omelet Sandwich again

Work-out day
---post work-out---- 2 boiled eggs, chocolate bar, chocolate milk, soy milk

6pm--- tapsilog (50g of beef(processed) + egg)
8pm--- 3 cups of rice and soup( 3 parts of chicken (leg, wings, breast) and vegetable)

The # of grams are just pure estimates.
BTW, I'm 169lbs. So I need around 255 g of protein. Everyday excluding those of pre and post work-out. Right? I just read that. :)