Author Topic: Intermittent Fasting  (Read 6532 times)

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Joe

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adarqui

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Re: Intermittent Fasting
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2010, 02:07:35 am »
0
nice.. ive sort of been on IF, just doing it naturally though.

T0ddday

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Re: Intermittent Fasting
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2011, 05:26:43 pm »
+1
Interesting.  A lab I collaborate with just found data that IF in rodents pretty much replicates the long term calorie restriction as far as lifespan, lipid markers, etc.  I like it.  IF is MUCH easier than long term calorie restriction. 

Clarence

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Re: Intermittent Fasting
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2011, 05:57:09 pm »
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Interesting.  A lab I collaborate with just found data that IF in rodents pretty much replicates the long term calorie restriction as far as lifespan, lipid markers, etc.  I like it.  IF is MUCH easier than long term calorie restriction. 

TOddday, what would you speculate the mechanism is?

T0ddday

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Re: Intermittent Fasting
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2011, 08:28:23 pm »
+1
Hah.  That's tough.  First off, it's really difficult to try to establish a mechanism for WHY calorie restriction slows down ageing when we are not even in agreement as to what the mechanism of ageing is.  This was discovered in the 1930's (that CR extends lifespan in rodents) and since then the proposed mechanism has changed as research into ageing has progressed. 

Although there are many proposed mechanisms for the effect of CR you can put most of the mechanism into two camps.

1) Metabolism is very bad. 

This camp basically points to the fact that with less food, you invariably have a lower metabolic rate, less oxidative damage, less inflammation, less plasma glucose, lower body temperature.   These results are pretty well established.  The story most biologists will give you is the story of blood glucose metabolism.   We know if blood glucose is high then mitochondria operate poorly and generate more superoxide (a free radical implicated in ageing).  If blood glucose is too high for too long we know cells eventually become insulin resistant which results in a increased glycation of proteins, higher probability of infection (bugs eat sugar), and what we call metabolic syndrome or type II diabetes. 


2) Metabolism is not necessarily bad, but the lack of metabolism "trains" the body and this adaptation increases lifespan.

This camp really turns the idea of "free radical damage" on it's head.  Most of the research in this camp is less than 5 years old.  It's been shown in nematode that small increases in oxidative stress lead to increased resistance to further oxidative stress.  Basically, it's the idea that the free radical damage actually trains the cell to be robust to further damage.  It's believed that the low-intensity biological stress of calorie restriction A) Causes changes in cell physiology which make it more robust in the face of   stress  B) Cause transcription of "longevity genes" which turn on protective proteins like heat-shock protein. 


********************

In all likelihood, its probably a combination of factors from both camps and a few unmentioned factors.  But....the reason why the studies about intermittent fasting are so encouraging is because they shift the likelihood that camp 2 is playing a major role in the increased longevity.  If IF == CR as far as results, it's not simply the lack of calories.  It's a poor analogy, but I would describe Camp 1 is sort of like saying you will live longer if you do less because by doing less you accumulate less damage.  To effectively calorie restrict activity must be kept to a minimum which is not what people who love to train want to hear!  Camp 2 can be summarized as saying "just like you train your your muscles (with progressive overload) and they supercompensate so to must you train your cells (by intermittently reducing the amount of energy you provide to them)  so they will supercompensate and become efficient
at glucose metabolism and ready to withstand all the stresses of life!

Now that's something we can all get behind!  Hope that made sense! 


vag

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Re: Intermittent Fasting
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2014, 09:56:07 am »
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Cross-linking two nice articles, recently posted on entropy's journal:

IF vs frequent small meals:
vag: http://www.leangains.com/2010/10/top-ten-fasting-myths-debunked.html

IF for getting rid of stubborn fat:
also check out this -
http://www.leangains.com/2010/06/intermittent-fasting-and-stubborn-body.html


And a question:
Is IF also efficient for bulking? Or is it meant to be used as a cutting tool?
In my mind it makes some kind of foggy sense to go: fast-workout-eat big, so you get the best out of 2 words, like a zig-zag approach but on a daily basis, instead of splitting the caloric surplus and deficit per 24h you use the gym as hour zero. Makes sense? Any relevant knowledge/experience/article?
woot

entropy

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Re: Intermittent Fasting
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2014, 03:45:53 am »
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Just anecdotal, when i look at my abs in the PM (as i approach the end of a 24hr fast), i notice lots of green veins. This suggests to me an active blood flow in the area? Like ive been eating into that bodyfat or something haha.

I have a question about visceral fat. It seems my body doesn't burn that all off like it's supposed to around 15%. For some reason it remains intact, dieting doesn't do much if anything for it, i still have that visceral belly :/ But if i start playing basketball i'll quickly lose that inch or two around the belly. it's not subcutaneous fat, only have a little of that atm. I must be a special snowflake.
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

vag

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Re: Intermittent Fasting
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2014, 04:19:26 am »
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Also, what is the minimum fasted time span that you can consider fasting? Do 12hrs count or is it too little?
woot

LBSS

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Re: Intermittent Fasting
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2014, 12:03:14 pm »
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i posted about this in your journal already, but for bulking (as for cutting) i think it's too individual to come up with a blanket recommendation for whether IF is good for bulking. the priorities for diet, if you're training for something, are (1) overall caloric intake; (1a) protein intake; (3) everything else. yes, i realize that's slightly different than what i put in your journal but it's basically the same point: what matters most are caloric balance (intake vs. expenditure) and protein intake. timing and the breakdown of the balance of calories between fat and carbs are much less important and are more highly individualized.

12 hours sounds like too long a window for it to really count as IF, but then again i don't think it matters THAT much.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

sunday: long very easy run 80+ mins @ 5:40+ (14+ km)
monday: strength/cross training
tuesday: extensive tempo (7 km) OR fartlek (mostly easy pace with mix of strides, hills, long tempo) 45 mins (8+ km)
wednesday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km)
thursday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km), strength/cross-training
friday: rest
saturday: short tempo 6-8x500 @ sub-4:00 (7 km)

strength would be:
- hops 2x10
- box jumps or ME SVJ 2x5
- squats 3x6-8 or weighted BSS/lunges 3x10/leg
- RDL/hypers 2x10-12 or SLRDL 2x10-12/leg
- upper push myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- upper pull myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- leg raises, holds, pallof presses

vag

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Re: Intermittent Fasting
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2014, 01:15:10 pm »
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You mean 12 hrs is too short?
woot

LBSS

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Re: Intermittent Fasting
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2014, 02:07:03 pm »
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You mean 12 hrs is too short?

no, by "window" i was referring to the eating window. i see why you were confused, though, given the way you phrased your post. 12 hours of not eating seems like too short a span to be considered "fasting." but take that with a grain of salt, it's a feels thing and not based in any kind of analysis or reading that i can recall.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

sunday: long very easy run 80+ mins @ 5:40+ (14+ km)
monday: strength/cross training
tuesday: extensive tempo (7 km) OR fartlek (mostly easy pace with mix of strides, hills, long tempo) 45 mins (8+ km)
wednesday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km)
thursday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km), strength/cross-training
friday: rest
saturday: short tempo 6-8x500 @ sub-4:00 (7 km)

strength would be:
- hops 2x10
- box jumps or ME SVJ 2x5
- squats 3x6-8 or weighted BSS/lunges 3x10/leg
- RDL/hypers 2x10-12 or SLRDL 2x10-12/leg
- upper push myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- upper pull myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- leg raises, holds, pallof presses

Coges

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Re: Intermittent Fasting
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2014, 10:26:41 pm »
+1
12 hours is almost a normal diet. Considering most will sleep for around 8. The "norm" for IF seems to be the 16/8 split advocated by leangains.

LBSS has it pretty much right as far as you need all your ducks in a row to ensure bulking (or fat loss for that matter) whilst doing IF. You might know I'm a fan of Anthony Mychal on this front and he advocates using IF, carb cycling and calorie cycling at the same time. The big point is to get enough cals for bulking period but then if you can shuffle your carbs to post wo then all the more better. The general rule of thumb as far as calorie levels each day he gives is on training days you eat enough carbs to feel full and jacked the next morning and on rest days you eat less and should wake up feeling lean. I can say this has worked for me when I eat around 3,000 cals on training days (lots of rice) I wake up feeling fuller and on rest days when I get around 1,800-2,000 I wake up feeling super lean.

It's an interesting dynamic and have to say it feels great pounding 4+cups of rice with your main meal after training. I'm only now getting to the stage where I can have one super big meal after 1 smaller meal earlier.
"Train as hard as possible, as often as possible, while staying as fresh as possible"
- Zatsiorsky

vag

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Re: Intermittent Fasting
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2014, 05:39:40 am »
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Ah, nice, that is what i was looking for, the IF 'norm'.
My current split is not 12/12 after all, it is around 10/14 to 9/15. I like the whole cycling/zigzagging idea, i am trying to implement it too currently. Body feels like it's confused, weight/water retention/bloating fluctuate like crazy. It is like dude, wtf is going on. Fasts,  force-feeds, high-carb, low-carb, 3000/1500 kcals alternating, it doesn't know what hit it lol. But i feel very good.

Oh, and since the chat is about IF bulking, for everyone that will try to implement it i gotta warn that force-feeding +2000 clean kcals is not easy. I am ok with it but not sure everyone is able to down e.g. half a chicken, 150kg rice, 300g yoghurt, 2 slices of whole grain bread and then realize all that was around ~1800 so add a couple handfuls of peanuts for 'desert'  :o
woot

LBSS

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Re: Intermittent Fasting
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2014, 08:09:26 am »
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bro.

Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

sunday: long very easy run 80+ mins @ 5:40+ (14+ km)
monday: strength/cross training
tuesday: extensive tempo (7 km) OR fartlek (mostly easy pace with mix of strides, hills, long tempo) 45 mins (8+ km)
wednesday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km)
thursday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km), strength/cross-training
friday: rest
saturday: short tempo 6-8x500 @ sub-4:00 (7 km)

strength would be:
- hops 2x10
- box jumps or ME SVJ 2x5
- squats 3x6-8 or weighted BSS/lunges 3x10/leg
- RDL/hypers 2x10-12 or SLRDL 2x10-12/leg
- upper push myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- upper pull myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- leg raises, holds, pallof presses

vag

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Re: Intermittent Fasting
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2014, 08:29:19 am »
+1
^^^^
Dat gets you ripped brah!!!

woot