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Performance Area => Nutrition & Supplementation => Topic started by: D4 on August 09, 2012, 07:45:49 pm

Title: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: D4 on August 09, 2012, 07:45:49 pm
Anyone here use pre-workout supplements so they are energized fully for an optimal workout?  Since I started working, I've been getting less sleep and it's affecting my workouts.  My workout frequency isn't exactly that high so I need to make all my workout sessions count.  Caffeine has little to no affect on me now, considering that I'm drinking coffee everyday at work on top of the fact that I'm naturally pretty tolerant to it to begin with.

I've heard of stuff like N.O. Fury (I think Raptor uses it), and C4 or whatever... 

Any recommendations on a specific supplement? 

- Also it'd be nice if you add in information such as if it includes caffeine, if you experience a crash later, how long it lasts in your body, does tolerant build up, etc...

I am pretty clueless and completely inexperienced with pre-workout supplements.
Title: Re: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: Raptor on August 09, 2012, 08:07:56 pm
I take this:

http://www.pronutrition.ro/produs.aspx?pID=173&cID=0&dID=0&bID=38

I haven't exactly made a buy of it but it was a promotion of proteins + this so I got it. To be honest, it does help. Not sure if it's placebo or not, probably not though, but when you squat you do have some extra energy and "nerve" (extra will so to speak) to complete your reps and not quit. So...

It's a Romanian product though, so unless you can translate that ... here's what it contains (in Romanian):

(http://www.pronutrition.ro/client_pictures/img_ingredients/large/634492564936639990_tabel.jpg)

You can also go with this:

(http://www.suplimente.ro/images/products/no_xplode.jpeg)
Title: Re: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: LBSS on August 09, 2012, 09:17:43 pm
17 cups of coffee.
Title: Re: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: LanceSTS on August 09, 2012, 09:50:59 pm
most of this pre workout stuff is not that good or useful.  it all contains caffeine, the rest of the stuff is like vitamins and fruit extracts.  imo it's not worth it and is placebo effect most of the time.  nothing beats pure motivation, and some times this pre work out stuff makes u all giddy and not yourself.

and this stuff is terrible before basketball and plyometrics.

^ the above is based on science.
Title: Re: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: D4 on August 09, 2012, 11:13:36 pm
most of this pre workout stuff is not that good or useful.  it all contains caffeine, the rest of the stuff is like vitamins and fruit extracts.  imo it's not worth it and is placebo effect most of the time.  nothing beats pure motivation, and some times this pre work out stuff makes u all giddy and not yourself.

and this stuff is terrible before basketball and plyometrics.

Did you ask every single person on Earth if pre-workout supplements aren't useful for them? 

Maybe it sucks for you before plyos and basketball,but when I used to take a lot of caffeine (when I was less tolerant) prior to jump sessions/plyo's/basketball, I loved it lol.  Made me really aggressive and explosive,  not only making the jumps and plyos better quality, but making me perform better in basketball games as well.
Title: Re: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: chrisbro1 on August 09, 2012, 11:41:20 pm
I use jack3d sparingly.  No crash...I only notice the effects are waning because mentally my focus slowly drops back to normal.  I think it may be banned in the US but you can still find it in some places and it's never made me feel weird, although I also rarely ever use a full dose.

When I really want to make sure I kill it in the gym, the most effective thing for me has been eating a bowl of sweet potatoes the night before.  For some reason it really boosts my power & endurance.
Title: Re: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: LanceSTS on August 10, 2012, 12:00:18 am

 5hr energy + tyrosine capsules = nice increase in focus/energy without crash.
Title: Re: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: entropy on August 10, 2012, 01:15:48 am
I take synephrine (2x10mg) and caffeine(1x200mg) caps before my friday workouts, once or twice a month. I use them very sparingly, and only if i'm attempting a PR and don't feel very strong, cos I don't wanna fatigue my CNS more than necessary by taking stimulants often. It makes them less effective that way too.

In the past when I was cutting (from ~110kg down to ~85kg), I used the same stack daily to control hunger and appetite while on a very low carb diet diet  to feel alert for workouts. I never take stimulants before games because my normal nerves have me wired, and if I take stimulants on top of that, I get overstimulated and it's impossible to shoot or pass well because everything feels fast forwarded x 10 lol. On my current cut i've managed to do without stims but eventually when i'm leaner I suspect i'll have to take them to control hunger.
Title: Re: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: pelham32 on August 10, 2012, 07:57:52 am
Straight black coffee works for me, or two monster rehab energy drinks. But today i think i will copy Lance and will try some tyrosine and coffee I have some left over I forgot about. Have any of you tried biotests expensive brain candy? It's pretty good puts you in a sort of social/thinking/happy/energized mood it's just so expensive though I bought some for semester finals.
Title: Re: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: D4 on August 10, 2012, 04:46:12 pm
it is because of the crash.  it works okay for 30-45 min short workouts

That doesn't mean it works okay for 30-45 min for everyone...  For some people it works better than okay.  Everyone is different
Title: Re: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: Raptor on August 10, 2012, 04:49:05 pm
Everyone is different

"Everybody is the same and should squat the same"

- Mark Rippetoe
Title: Re: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: steven-miller on August 10, 2012, 08:27:17 pm
Black coffee works best for me personally. When I have the time I make ~500 ml and bring it with me to train. Then I consume it over warm-ups which has me amped up when I have to do the work-sets. Before most PR attempts I use mint oil. Just dribble some on the back of your hand and sniff it. If it is not enough, smear it under the eyes or something. Makes you be "there" immediately.
Title: Re: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: Kingfish on August 10, 2012, 09:25:31 pm
cups of black french pressed coffee. kona, columbia, jamaican blue mountain, costa rica, ethiopia.... i don't mess around with my coffee.

i use most of the mainstream PW supplements too - noxplod, 1MR, jack3d.. they all do the same thing. wake you up and get you veiny.

300mg of caffeine on an empty stomach starts me up slowly. thats mild for me but works.
Title: Re: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: Raptor on August 11, 2012, 06:20:59 am
How good/bad is NOEXPLODE?

I heard stories from friends that it made them feel really weird...
Title: Re: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: LanceSTS on August 11, 2012, 08:33:36 am
How good/bad is NOEXPLODE?

I heard stories from friends that it made them feel really weird...

Its got stimulants in it so it give you a pretty solid rush.  Stomach issues happen mostly from people taking too much, it has creatine in it and too much creatine can cause some pretty frequent trips to the restroom.
Title: Re: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: LBSS on August 13, 2012, 12:24:56 pm
i don't mess around with my coffee.


of course you don't, you're from northern california. snob.  :P
Title: Re: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: TheSituation on August 13, 2012, 12:51:32 pm
If you don't care about taste you're better off making one with bulk ingredients on your own.

Creatine: 3-5g
Beta Alanine: 2-4g (best split into 2 doses a day but it doesn't matter)
Caffeine: 200-400mg
L-Citruline: 3g
L-Tyrosine: 1.5g-2g
Multi Vitamin


After that you can add more stimulants if you'd like. 1,3 dimethylamylamine is now banned in supplements but you can find it bulk. 40mg is a good dose. I'd only use this for weight lifting and not sports/running. It's also banned by some sporting federations (I don't think by the NCAA yet). Dendrobine and various forms of Phenylethylamine could be useful, but research isn't even close to being conclusive.


All of this won't really do that much, but if you want a preworkout this is the best you'll get.
Title: Re: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: Raptor on August 13, 2012, 05:46:25 pm
http://www.scitecsupplements.co.uk/hot-blood---tub-820g-307-p.asp
Title: Re: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: pelham32 on August 14, 2012, 11:47:18 am
I've tried 200 mg caffeine and 1200mg phenylethylamine and it definitely works. You feel a big head rush but you are ready to go!! I was using it during my 4 am workouts.. The phenylethylamine helped with a good mood feeling and combined with caffeine you really set some pr's but your blood pressure does increase when taking it. It also makes music sound better, I think the increased dopamine from taking it just puts your brain in a euphoric mode and nothing can bother you.
Title: Re: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: TKXII on August 23, 2012, 10:51:46 pm
99% of pre-w/out supplements are complete SHIT. Most of them release more adrenaline into yoursystem which overtime create a lot of stress. I know I'm going to get negged for this but NO ONE will give me a half-intelligent argument backing up any of the supps here. If you think this is science you are just a fucking idiot. braindead.

Ideally, one should be really amped up for a workout. THis can be achieved by eating foods that optimize hormone production, these include animal fats which also contain cholesterol the building blocks for nutrients. RED MEAT, not chicken, BISON, ELK, GAME, FISH, RAW DAIRY, ORGAN MEATS.

THe only supplement I'd recommend is COD LIVER OIL for extra vitamin A for metabolism/thyroid.

Schisandra berries are good too but won't give oyu much of the boost if the first thing I mentioned is there but it's a great long term tonic herb, there are other good long term tonic herbs such as ashwagandha but these won't give you a pre-workout boost. All the supps people mentioned just SUCK. They will NOT GIVE YOU STRENGTH GAINS, they will temporarily AMP YOU UP, which A HEALTHY PERSON SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO ALREADY and which ppl on the verge of overtraining will suffer the negative consequences of from over acivating the Sympatho-adrenal system (SAS) and fucking up even more their HPA axis. go to mindandmuscle.net/forum to learn more about overtraining and its symptoms.

If you're not amped up, go to bed on fucking time, don't eat sweets at night, eat egg yolks and butter...take cold showers, practice osm emeditation to reduce stress, and take cod liver oil for the vitamin A, maybe som eiodine for extra metbaolism boost but be careful you don't need too much.
Title: Re: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: LanceSTS on August 23, 2012, 11:34:36 pm
NO ONE will give me a half-intelligent argument backing up any of the supps here.

No one will give you an argument because no one gives a shit what you have to say. 
Title: Re: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: TheSituation on August 24, 2012, 12:42:04 am
I can give studies for every ingredient I listed (besides Tyrosine. That's more of an anecdotal thing). Considering you think pre workouts "increase adrenaline" shows you have no idea what you're talking about. The only thing that does something remotely close to that is 1,3 dimethylamylamine.

Assuming one has normal levels of testosterone, dietary changes aren't going to do anything for significant hormone production increases. People even worrying about hormone levels is laughable. The only time to worry about hormones is if you have low testosterone or you are taking steroids. Once you are in the normal levels, any increase you can do naturally will have zero effect on anything training wise. The most you will see is an increase in libido but that's probably just placebo. Even if you take steroids, that's not going to "amp you up" like stimulants will. Plus the other ingredients will still help.

Adrenal fatigue is not real




(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Y6K4qfg9EX4/TrQDFbEEpbI/AAAAAAAAE9Y/t5TW9WqL4oo/s640/26.ready.jpg)
Title: Re: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: J-DUB on August 24, 2012, 02:27:02 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwNWpttORgY
Title: Re: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: J-DUB on August 24, 2012, 02:39:51 am
This is gonna sound hippie, but I've been influenced about a lot of paranormal stuff. I'd do the regular massage as has been recommended, but seriously meditate, and do not get "angry" at your ankle. Your body hears this information according to psychics. I know this is weird.

Also meditation taps into the electrical bone healing properties of the body. Read "The Body Electric." Yogis and energetic healers who can heal fractures instantly all tap into this ability that many lower creatures with less nerve tissue, who have better bone regenerative ability, inherently have.


If you think this is science you are just a fucking idiot. braindead.
Title: Re: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: AGC on August 24, 2012, 03:29:46 am
J-DUB delivers the goods again!
Title: Re: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: entropy on August 24, 2012, 04:21:20 am
There are different ways to look at preworkout stimulation. Some people believe that excess stimulation is unnecessary and counter productive. I remember reading Glen Pendlay on either P&B or IGX (i can't recall which)

Quote
INTENSITY

Intensity one thing i have noticed over the years is that some lifters need much more emotional arousal to lift top weights than others. i have also noticed that it is the emotional arousal itself, not the lifts, that brings on fatigue, and possibly overtraining. consider this. in lifters who can lift 95-100% weights without getting "psyched up", there is usually the ability to lift these top weights very often, sometimes daily, without undue fatigue.

However, with lifters who need considerable emotional arousal to lift these weights, they CANNOT be lifted often, certainly not more than once a week. this obviously leads one to the conclusion that the emotional arousal itself, not the weights lifted, is the mechanism leading to fatigue. before anyone flys off the handle, ill admit that one can overtrain without getting psyched up if they try, and the physical stress of lifting obviously plays a part, i am only saying that the EMOTIONAL arousal plays a bigger part than most would consider.

Now, i consider it a truism that it is not sensible to let your ability to lift with or without emotional arousal determine your lifting frequency or volume. in other words, psyching yourself out of your mind every time you squat to get your best possible poundage, then simply accepting the fact that you can only squat once every 10 days is not sensible. personally, i limit pssyching up in training. true, i support a businesslike atmosphere, and yell and scream at liftes daily.

But i DO NOT let lifters pace for 3 minutes working themselves into a frenzy before a lift. just go up to the bar and lift it is in my opinion the best training strategy. what does this have to do with all of you? well i know that some of you feel unable to train very often. i know that "overtraining", loss of motivation, etc, are subjects discussed somewhat regularly on this board and by lifters everywhere. my suggestion if you have experienced this or are experiencing it, is to not only look at your workouts, but look at your attitudes and arousal during your workouts. try to do 2 or 3 weeks of training where you DO NOT psych yourself up prior to sets. you may find several things.

You might find that you just plain feel better out of the gym, not so "drained" and tired as usuall. you might find that you are able to handle more training volume. and finally, you will almost surely find that in time you will increase your ability to lift heavy weithts without psyching yourself up, it is in fact a learned ability. and when this happens, youll find you have the best of both worlds, youll be lifting as heavy as possible, without draining yourself emoutionally. youll feel better, youll lift better and be albe to lift more and more often... and youll find that your mental state in everyday life is just plain better. and finally, PLAN your all out, crazy, psyche up and frothing at the mouth workouts. itll be a pleasant change of pace every couple of weeks! itll be something to look forward to, not just the daily grind.

and another one from a different forum by Glen
Quote
LEARNING to give as close to 100% physically as is possible without undue emotional involvement is a... LEARNING experience, for most people at least.

Just because you cant do it doesnt mean it isnt valuable, or that you cant learn to do it better.

Just as with most things, it will be hard at first, keep trying, and you will get better.

If you never plan to get anywhere near your physical limits or really push yourself, this isnt really important. But if thats not the case, the closer you get, the more advanced you get, the more important this will become.

Quote
I did write something on the net about this, cant remember where or when though. It is something that anyone who coaches a few hundred lifters will eventually see. Some kids can lift 90-95% of their maximum with about as much excitement as getting out of bed in the morning. Others need to psych up. The kids that can do it without psyching up can lift very near their maximum many times per week, those that need to psych up, can do it much less often. I personally believe that learning to lift weights over 90% of your maximum with no emotion is one of the keys to frequent training.

My view is squarely in the middle. Sometimes you need stimulants, even if just as a placebo (i feel stronger with my preworkout stack)  to get thru a workout that is mentally daunting. Sometimes you just need a boost. But for day to day and week to week  training I agree with Glen that you don't want to become reliant on psyching up, whether thru supplements or listening to the rocky speech on youtube or whatever. If most workouts are approached with a calmness then it takes less of an emotional drain on the body and it's easier to maintain consistency in training since sessions don't ask for too much out of you mentally. Like i've already mentioned the more often you take stimulants the less effective they are as you become desensitised to the effects. Saving them and using them sparingly is probably a good idea. Or you could keep ramping up the dosage as some people are prone to do, but i'm not sure that's a great idea either. Just my 2c.
Title: Re: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: Raptor on August 24, 2012, 04:54:16 am
Quote

ball of foot getting ready for toe off. Yes it's more "dangerous" but in reality it's just breaking? down the tissue more and therefore needs more nutrients in order to heal.

RawAthlete

 :ninja:
Title: Re: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: vag on August 24, 2012, 07:12:33 am
"Stimulants are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit."
Title: Re: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: Raptor on August 24, 2012, 08:12:48 am
Stimulants generate bone growth.
Title: Re: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: TheSituation on August 24, 2012, 11:22:04 am
I didn't know Creatine, Beta Alanine and Citrulline were stimulants.

These all help and you should take them everyday if you have them. You don't develop a tolerance. The only difference you'll notice is you won't get tingles from Beta Alanine after awhile.

But again, these don't help that much and if you can't afford them don't worry about it.
Title: Re: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: entropy on August 24, 2012, 11:35:33 am
I didn't know Creatine, Beta Alanine and Citrulline were stimulants.

These all help and you should take them everyday if you have them. You don't develop a tolerance. The only difference you'll notice is you won't get tingles from Beta Alanine after awhile.

But again, these don't help that much and if you can't afford them don't worry about it.

You are right, they're not. Thanks btw, I used your tip for a homemade preworkout and I like it. Using creatine and a multi + stimulants, plus some carbs+protein about 15 mins later makes for a good workout.
Title: Re: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: TKXII on August 24, 2012, 03:15:49 pm
haha. Yes citrulline is not a stimulant, but who takes that shit alone? Most pre-w/out formulas contain adrenergic agonists. I agree with entropy's quote where the guy quoted said it's not necessarily good to try to psyche yourself up before each lift. This willr esult in overtraining.


I've been there for the past 8months-ish. Now I'm taking cod liver oil and I'm insanely psyched up probably due to the Vitamin A. this won't work for everyone.

Situation: good points, I didn't mean to say it's all about testosterone, but of course having a healthy hormonal profile is huge. And diet can significantly affect T levels.

ADrenal fatigue is a controversial condition I'd agree, it's a problem originating int he hypothalamus, HPA axis.

I would also agree for endurance training citrulline, beta alanine, and creatine could help but I wasn't thinking about that, just strength/power training.

Pretty much everyone agrees with me that the stimulant supps like JACK3d are not good supplements to rely on and in general are not good for you.

You should go to the gym because you are warmed up. Not go to the gym, and then get warmed up. That's a healthy metabolism.
Title: Re: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: Kingfish on October 16, 2013, 08:54:10 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctQ89UkcMfc

if i sell my unused gen1 craze for $250+ each on ebay (got them for $25+).. does that make me a meth dealer.. lol. (not srs)

not using these lately because of the allegations.. now probably not going to be using my 20+ tubs at all.. need heart to be healthy.


Title: Re: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: entropy on October 30, 2013, 05:44:35 am
That's nuts!

Btw KF I realised you take a lot of caffeine because duh you are a daily squatter so you kinda have to take a lot unlike someone who only lifts 3x a week.

Have you ever tried going without it? Wonder if that would help you reduce CNS fatigue. I feel as though it would because that much caffeine so often has got to be tough on the nervous system especially with very high frequency training as yours.

Lately ive reduced my caffeine intake quite a bit and I like it, don't get so wired and find it easier to sleep after training now.
Title: Re: Pre-Workout supplements
Post by: Kingfish on October 30, 2013, 09:39:57 pm
That's nuts!

Btw KF I realised you take a lot of caffeine because duh you are a daily squatter so you kinda have to take a lot unlike someone who only lifts 3x a week.

Have you ever tried going without it? Wonder if that would help you reduce CNS fatigue. I feel as though it would because that much caffeine so often has got to be tough on the nervous system especially with very high frequency training as yours.

Lately ive reduced my caffeine intake quite a bit and I like it, don't get so wired and find it easier to sleep after training now.

i can do with 0mg-800mg caffeine a day without any headaches or withdrawals. i take black coffee at 5am and still sleep 7.5hr at 8am.