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Performance Area => Nutrition & Supplementation => Topic started by: Tam on July 01, 2010, 03:21:46 pm
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What is everyone taking for pre/post workout supplements, if at all? Right now i am doing this:
1st half of training: 1/2 serving of biotest surge workout fuel with 24g whey
2nd half of training:1/2 serving of biotest surge workout fuel.
Immediately after training: 50g whey
1-1.30h after - Post workout meal with 50g protein and 50-80g carbs
Will throw in a serving of surge recovery and 12g whey before heavy squats. Like dong this as i have tons of energy and i am able to maintain/increase strength while dropping fat slowly.
During my bodybuilding days i have done this with great results in strength and size:
30 mins before: 2 scoops of biotest surge workout fuel
15 mins before: 2 scoops biotest surge recovery
During: 1 scoop of biotest surge recover + 12g of whey
Immediately after: 50g whey
1-1.30h after - Post workout meal with 50g protein and 50g carbs.
I thought the above protocol was great for adding size and strength with minimal fat gain, but was expensive though!
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What is everyone taking for pre/post workout supplements, if at all? Right now i am doing this:
1st half of training: 1/2 serving of biotest surge workout fuel with 24g whey
2nd half of training:1/2 serving of biotest surge workout fuel.
Immediately after training: 50g whey
1-1.30h after - Post workout meal with 50g protein and 50-80g carbs
Will throw in a serving of surge recovery and 12g whey before heavy squats. Like dong this as i have tons of energy and i am able to maintain/increase strength while dropping fat slowly.
During my bodybuilding days i have done this with great results in strength and size:
30 mins before: 2 scoops of biotest surge workout fuel
15 mins before: 2 scoops biotest surge recovery
During: 1 scoop of biotest surge recover + 12g of whey
Immediately after: 50g whey
1-1.30h after - Post workout meal with 50g protein and 50g carbs.
I thought the above protocol was great for adding size and strength with minimal fat gain, but was expensive though!
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
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On a serious note: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/an-objective-comparison-of-chocolate-milk-and-surge-recovery.html (http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/an-objective-comparison-of-chocolate-milk-and-surge-recovery.html)
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What is everyone taking for pre/post workout supplements, if at all? Right now i am doing this:
1st half of training: 1/2 serving of biotest surge workout fuel with 24g whey
2nd half of training:1/2 serving of biotest surge workout fuel.
Immediately after training: 50g whey
1-1.30h after - Post workout meal with 50g protein and 50-80g carbs
Will throw in a serving of surge recovery and 12g whey before heavy squats. Like dong this as i have tons of energy and i am able to maintain/increase strength while dropping fat slowly.
During my bodybuilding days i have done this with great results in strength and size:
30 mins before: 2 scoops of biotest surge workout fuel
15 mins before: 2 scoops biotest surge recovery
During: 1 scoop of biotest surge recover + 12g of whey
Immediately after: 50g whey
1-1.30h after - Post workout meal with 50g protein and 50g carbs.
I thought the above protocol was great for adding size and strength with minimal fat gain, but was expensive though!
glad that worked/works for you but i like to keep it real simple with performance nutrition, plus i'm not the biggest biotest fan :/
I mean, currently i'm on absolutely no supplements, but if I was or was to recommend anything, it would be:
- clean diet (lots of veggies/chicken/lean meats/fruit)
- protein shake in the morning
- protein shake 1-1.5 hours prior to lifting
- protein shake right after lifting
- big meal ~1 hour after lifting
- zig zagging carb intake
protein shakes for me, are simple: whey + whole milk OR whey + propel packet + gatoraid powder.. as for direct ratio of protei/carb, I like the 1:3 protein/carb rule..
I think alot of that advanced supplementation is pretty overrated, but that's just me..
My current "workout nutrition" protocol, on a normal training day (not trying to peak vert)..
- wakeup: whole milk + bananas
- a bit after waking up: stir fry + protein source + whole milk OR rice & beans + protein source + whole milk
- 1 hour pre-workout: whole milk + banana
- workout: 1-3 hours, no water, no nutrients
- ~15 minutes after workout: ~3-4 glasses of whole milk
- ~1 hour after workout: ~2 glasses of milk, 5-7 bananas, sandwhich
lol :D
peace
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What is everyone taking for pre/post workout supplements, if at all? Right now i am doing this:
1st half of training: 1/2 serving of biotest surge workout fuel with 24g whey
2nd half of training:1/2 serving of biotest surge workout fuel.
Immediately after training: 50g whey
1-1.30h after - Post workout meal with 50g protein and 50-80g carbs
Will throw in a serving of surge recovery and 12g whey before heavy squats. Like dong this as i have tons of energy and i am able to maintain/increase strength while dropping fat slowly.
During my bodybuilding days i have done this with great results in strength and size:
30 mins before: 2 scoops of biotest surge workout fuel
15 mins before: 2 scoops biotest surge recovery
During: 1 scoop of biotest surge recover + 12g of whey
Immediately after: 50g whey
1-1.30h after - Post workout meal with 50g protein and 50g carbs.
I thought the above protocol was great for adding size and strength with minimal fat gain, but was expensive though!
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
You don't have to insult me with that shit, trying to have a serious discussion.
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On a serious note: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/an-objective-comparison-of-chocolate-milk-and-surge-recovery.html (http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/an-objective-comparison-of-chocolate-milk-and-surge-recovery.html)
Wouldn't take chocolate milk post workout, loaded with HFCS. In fact i wouldn't take any simple carbs post workout at all due to the release of catecholamines that counteract the insulin response, so having a but load of simple carbs would more likely be stored in the liver and the remainder as fat. Plus it isn't about how much carbs and protein its about what types of protein and carbs ingested. You want fast acting protein and carbs. Surge has whey hydrosolite which is much faster acting than casein found in milk. Surge also contains maltodextrin an dextrose which is much faster replenishing glycogen stores than lactose found in milk. Also Surge contains 13g of BCAA's and Leucine. Not saying that Surge is the best product you can buy but i like biotest, certainly worked form me. IMO carbs are better taking pre workout but if you had to take them post workout then a simple dextrose or maltodextrin powder mixed with whey is much better than chocolate milk. And when your goal is to put as much size and increase strength as quick as possible why not take some supplements that would make it a little easier, certainly beats eating 5,000+kcals a day in clean food.
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What is everyone taking for pre/post workout supplements, if at all? Right now i am doing this:
1st half of training: 1/2 serving of biotest surge workout fuel with 24g whey
2nd half of training:1/2 serving of biotest surge workout fuel.
Immediately after training: 50g whey
1-1.30h after - Post workout meal with 50g protein and 50-80g carbs
Will throw in a serving of surge recovery and 12g whey before heavy squats. Like dong this as i have tons of energy and i am able to maintain/increase strength while dropping fat slowly.
During my bodybuilding days i have done this with great results in strength and size:
30 mins before: 2 scoops of biotest surge workout fuel
15 mins before: 2 scoops biotest surge recovery
During: 1 scoop of biotest surge recover + 12g of whey
Immediately after: 50g whey
1-1.30h after - Post workout meal with 50g protein and 50g carbs.
I thought the above protocol was great for adding size and strength with minimal fat gain, but was expensive though!
glad that worked/works for you but i like to keep it real simple with performance nutrition, plus i'm not the biggest biotest fan :/
I mean, currently i'm on absolutely no supplements, but if I was or was to recommend anything, it would be:
- clean diet (lots of veggies/chicken/lean meats/fruit)
- protein shake in the morning
- protein shake 1-1.5 hours prior to lifting
- protein shake right after lifting
- big meal ~1 hour after lifting
- zig zagging carb intake
protein shakes for me, are simple: whey + whole milk OR whey + propel packet + gatoraid powder.. as for direct ratio of protei/carb, I like the 1:3 protein/carb rule..
I think alot of that advanced supplementation is pretty overrated, but that's just me..
My current "workout nutrition" protocol, on a normal training day (not trying to peak vert)..
- wakeup: whole milk + bananas
- a bit after waking up: stir fry + protein source + whole milk OR rice & beans + protein source + whole milk
- 1 hour pre-workout: whole milk + banana
- workout: 1-3 hours, no water, no nutrients
- ~15 minutes after workout: ~3-4 glasses of whole milk
- ~1 hour after workout: ~2 glasses of milk, 5-7 bananas, sandwhich
lol :D
peace
I was the same until i tried their products, was surprised to be honest. Plus as i said in the earlier post my main goal for the past two years was to put on size and increase strength as quick as possible ( which i done), so i thought why not give it a go, sort of an experiment to see what all the hype was about peri workout nutrition etc and it worked really well for me.Would i recommend these supplements to a newbie? Hell no! would keep it as simple as possible. Thats good that works for you, i wish i had your simple approach but i tend to over analyze things lol
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No insult intended, I just find it funny that anyone has bought Surge. If you want to keep funneling cash to those shysters, knock yourself out. I'll stick with my chocolate milk mixed with whey concentrate.
W/r/t HFCS, also see:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/research-review/straight-talk-about-high-fructose-corn-syrup-what-it-is-and-what-it-aint-research-review.html
and
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/a-primer-on-dietary-carbohydrates-part-1.html
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No insult intended, I just find it funny that anyone has bought Surge. If you want to keep funneling cash to those shysters, knock yourself out. I'll stick with my chocolate milk mixed with whey concentrate.
W/r/t HFCS, also see:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/research-review/straight-talk-about-high-fructose-corn-syrup-what-it-is-and-what-it-aint-research-review.html
and
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/a-primer-on-dietary-carbohydrates-part-1.html
Why bash a company when you haven't even tried their products? Fair enough you do what works for you and i will do what works for me but as i said in my earlier post its not all bout how many carbs/protein ingested, its the types and all the BCAA's and leucine you are missing out on that chocolate milk doesn't provide. And yeah i know what a carbohydrate is and their breakdown products, studied nutrition in college.
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I just came across this thread and wanted to add a little to what has been said. First of all, milk contains whey proteins as well as casein so it technically has both slow release and quick release properties. That being said, I have found hydrolysates to be worth the hype for pre and post workout supplementation. I was very skeptical at first as well but gave it a shot (nothing from biotest, GNC brand "Extreme 60" and Optimum nutritions "Hydro whey". Myself as well as several clients have noticed a significant difference in recovery, especially when training multiple times daily. The importance of pre and post workout protein intake is significantly higher when training specifically for hypertrophy vs jump and speed training. Alot of the TNation info is exaggerated due to the use of anabolics which raise protein synthesis levels by a massive amount (one of the main reasons they work), so the reccomendations could be toned down alot for us natural trainees as much of the excess protein would essentially be wasted with us and they would likely be able to absorb a much larger amount. I agree that biotest seems to put out some very suspect products and I have never used their stuff as it is grossly overpriced and other companies make similar products for much more reasonable amounts. But anyway, yea the hydrolysate is actually very effective and worth looking into imo. Also carbs taken post workout are much more important for people training more than once a day as they have a reason to race to get glycogen levels back up. Typical once a day athletes have plenty of time to replinish it through whole meals later in the day.
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I just came across this thread and wanted to add a little to what has been said. First of all, milk contains whey proteins as well as casein so it technically has both slow release and quick release properties. That being said, I have found hydrolysates to be worth the hype for pre and post workout supplementation. I was very skeptical at first as well but gave it a shot (nothing from biotest, GNC brand "Extreme 60" and Optimum nutritions "Hydro whey". Myself as well as several clients have noticed a significant difference in recovery, especially when training multiple times daily. The importance of pre and post workout protein intake is significantly higher when training specifically for hypertrophy vs jump and speed training. Alot of the TNation info is exaggerated due to the use of anabolics which raise protein synthesis levels by a massive amount (one of the main reasons they work), so the reccomendations could be toned down alot for us natural trainees as much of the excess protein would essentially be wasted with us and they would likely be able to absorb a much larger amount. I agree that biotest seems to put out some very suspect products and I have never used their stuff as it is grossly overpriced and other companies make similar products for much more reasonable amounts. But anyway, yea the hydrolysate is actually very effective and worth looking into imo. Also carbs taken post workout are much more important for people training more than once a day as they have a reason to race to get glycogen levels back up. Typical once a day athletes have plenty of time to replinish it through whole meals later in the day.
nice reply man, never tried hydrolysates.
"Additionally, when a 25-gram dose of protein hydrolysate was ingested after a damaging bout of eccentric exercise and compared to a 25-gram of intact whey protein, those individuals who ingested the hydrolysate were able to completely recover their ability to maximally produce force and overall seemingly greater recovery [7]. Currently, research is lacking to tell us conclusively if ingestion of a hydrolysate is better than an isolate and whether either leads to better improvements in strength and body composition over even a highly purified concentrate. Until these studies are conducted, ingestion of hydrolysates, appears to invoke many favorably physiological responses, which can favorably alter many aspects of exercise, recovery and sport nutrition."
Buckley, J.D., et al., Supplementation with a whey protein hydrolysate enhances recovery of muscle force-generating capacity following eccentric exercise. J Sci Med Sport, 2010. 13(1): p. 178-81.
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No insult intended, I just find it funny that anyone has bought Surge. If you want to keep funneling cash to those shysters, knock yourself out. I'll stick with my chocolate milk mixed with whey concentrate.
W/r/t HFCS, also see:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/research-review/straight-talk-about-high-fructose-corn-syrup-what-it-is-and-what-it-aint-research-review.html
and
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/a-primer-on-dietary-carbohydrates-part-1.html
Why bash a company when you haven't even tried their products? Fair enough you do what works for you and i will do what works for me but as i said in my earlier post its not all bout how many carbs/protein ingested, its the types and all the BCAA's and leucine you are missing out on that chocolate milk doesn't provide. And yeah i know what a carbohydrate is and their breakdown products, studied nutrition in college.
I bash Biotest because they're shysters. Because they make bullshit up -- lie, in other words -- to sell their insanely overpriced, unnecessary products. Fuck them.
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Hmmmmmm.........
Pre- banana(s) or peanutbutter sanga or someting....chickern? weet-bix? idk? lol.
Post- Lean Whey unlavoured protenin shake with ~500ml of full cream milk then maybe a peanut butter snaga or a good meal depending......
I KNOW ITS ALOT TO REMEMBER BUT I LIKE OVERCOMPLICATING THINGS :D :D :D :D :D
sorry tam but i had to... ;)
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BTW is biostest surge or whateva just a pre-workout pump/ingnitior???
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BTW is biostest surge or whateva just a pre-workout pump/ingnitior???
"Surge" is a post workout product, "Surge Workout Fuel" is a pre workout energy and endurance product.
I recommend you read product descriptions in future.
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More on fructose/HFCS, this bit related particularly to athletes and/or people who exercise a lot: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=gmail&attid=0.1&thid=129eb842f7251360&mt=application/pdf&url=https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui%3D2%26ik%3D408d536b32%26view%3Datt%26th%3D129eb842f7251360%26attid%3D0.1%26disp%3Dattd%26zw&sig=AHIEtbQ_Z0cNKp1V0DgqZ8IHNxmxp4Xo7g (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=gmail&attid=0.1&thid=129eb842f7251360&mt=application/pdf&url=https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui%3D2%26ik%3D408d536b32%26view%3Datt%26th%3D129eb842f7251360%26attid%3D0.1%26disp%3Dattd%26zw&sig=AHIEtbQ_Z0cNKp1V0DgqZ8IHNxmxp4Xo7g)
Salient quote:
Fructose is a monosaccharide that is the principal sugar present in fruits and honey. Table sugar (sucrose) derived from sugar cane and sugar beets is another source of fructose, as this disaccharide is degraded by sucrase in the intestine to equal parts glucose and fructose. The other major source of dietary fructose is high fructose corn syrup (HFCS), which is generated enyzmatically by converting corn starch to a mixture of fructose and glucose, often in a 55:45 mixture. HFCS is a common sweetener because it is liquid and mixes well, does not crystallize with freezing, is relatively inexpensive, and has a long shelf life. Natural fructose also is present in some vegetables (such as the sweet pea and sweet potato), but most fructose ingested today comes from products containing sugar and HFCS. It should be noted that HFCS comes in two commercially used variants: HFCS-55, as described above, and HFCS-42, in which only 42% of the total carbohydrate is fructose. In other words, HFCS-55 delivers slightly more fructose than table sugar (sucrose is composed of 50% glucose and 50% fructose), whereas HFCS-42 delivers slightly less fructose. HFCS-55 is used more often as a sweetener because its higher fructose content confers greater perceived sweetness. Most importantly, from a metabolic perspective, the three sugar sources are indistinguishable.
So what again is wrong with HFCS?
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More on fructose/HFCS, this bit related particularly to athletes and/or people who exercise a lot: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=gmail&attid=0.1&thid=129eb842f7251360&mt=application/pdf&url=https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui%3D2%26ik%3D408d536b32%26view%3Datt%26th%3D129eb842f7251360%26attid%3D0.1%26disp%3Dattd%26zw&sig=AHIEtbQ_Z0cNKp1V0DgqZ8IHNxmxp4Xo7g (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=gmail&attid=0.1&thid=129eb842f7251360&mt=application/pdf&url=https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui%3D2%26ik%3D408d536b32%26view%3Datt%26th%3D129eb842f7251360%26attid%3D0.1%26disp%3Dattd%26zw&sig=AHIEtbQ_Z0cNKp1V0DgqZ8IHNxmxp4Xo7g)
Salient quote:
Fructose is a monosaccharide that is the principal sugar present in fruits and honey. Table sugar (sucrose) derived from sugar cane and sugar beets is another source of fructose, as this disaccharide is degraded by sucrase in the intestine to equal parts glucose and fructose. The other major source of dietary fructose is high fructose corn syrup (HFCS), which is generated enyzmatically by converting corn starch to a mixture of fructose and glucose, often in a 55:45 mixture. HFCS is a common sweetener because it is liquid and mixes well, does not crystallize with freezing, is relatively inexpensive, and has a long shelf life. Natural fructose also is present in some vegetables (such as the sweet pea and sweet potato), but most fructose ingested today comes from products containing sugar and HFCS. It should be noted that HFCS comes in two commercially used variants: HFCS-55, as described above, and HFCS-42, in which only 42% of the total carbohydrate is fructose. In other words, HFCS-55 delivers slightly more fructose than table sugar (sucrose is composed of 50% glucose and 50% fructose), whereas HFCS-42 delivers slightly less fructose. HFCS-55 is used more often as a sweetener because its higher fructose content confers greater perceived sweetness. Most importantly, from a metabolic perspective, the three sugar sources are indistinguishable.
So what again is wrong with HFCS?
Cmon man, you trying to tell me that there is nothing wrong with eating refined products that contain HFCS? I don't mind fructose as long as its from fruit. HFCS is refined, contains empty calories and not good for developing a good physique so i would rather stay away from it.
Since we're talking sugars, let's highlight the differences between fructose and glucose (the sugar that most of our ingested carbohydrates become when they hit the bloodstream).
Fructose is absorbed through the intestine via different mechanisms than glucose. In addition, fructose has a slower rate of uptake.
Unlike glucose, fructose doesn't stimulate a substantial insulin release. Fructose is transported into cells via a different transporter than glucose. Once fructose is in the liver, it can provide glycerol, the backbone of triglycerides (fat), and increase fat formation.
Some people may have an inability to completely absorb fructose when ingested in a high dose of around 50 grams. Note, that's a lotta fructose. We're talking four to five medium apples. Conversely, a 16 ounce juice with HFCS can provide around 45 grams of fructose. Hello, flatulence.
Consuming glucose with fructose at the same time accelerates the absorption of fructose. This is one of the reasons that many sports drinks contain a mixture of sugars.
So, as you can see, there are some clear differences in absorption, digestion, and metabolism between fructose and glucose.
Your Liver, Leptin, and Why You're Still Eating
The liver is the major site of fructose metabolism. In the liver, fructose can be converted to glucose derivatives and stored as liver glycogen — which is good if you're physically active.
However, the liver's ability to do this is limited — which isn't so good. With very high single-serving doses of fructose, the fructose that arrives at the liver can easily be converted to fat. This is more prominent in clients with high blood lipids, insulin resistance, or Type II diabetes.
Now, blood levels of fructose aren't directly subject to tight hormonal regulation. This is one of the reasons fructose has a low glycemic response — which is often considered a positive.
On the negative side, while high intakes of fructose can lead to the synthesis of fat, it also fails to stimulate the production of leptin.
Since leptin is a hormone involved in the long-term regulation of energy balance, the decrease in leptin production associated with chronic high fructose intake can have harmful effects on the regulation of energy intake and body fat.
In other words, with HFCS, you never get those "I'm full" signals from the brain. So you keep eating.
Although fructose is low on the glycemic scale and can help replenish liver glycogen in the very physically active, excess intake of fructose can lead to the creation of fats in the liver, as well as short circuiting our energy balance and body fat regulating systems.
As a result, central obesity, low levels of good cholesterol, high levels of bad cholesterol, high triglycerides, and poor appetite control have been linked to consuming high amounts of high fructose sweeteners.
http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_nutrition/fructose_wars
Fact #3: Metabolic mayhem ensues after HFCS ingestion.
Let me ask you this: where in nature could our hunter-gatherer ancestors quickly guzzle down 100 grams of sugar? You guessed it, nowhere. It just ain't natural. It astounds me that the human body can even deal with a Super Big Gulp. And actually, it doesn't deal with it very well.
Guzzling Corn Syrup
When a human being quickly introduces that much sugar, his body does what it must: turn it into triglycerides (fat). I've seen some disturbing blood work after ingestion of a fat-free, high-fructose meal, in which the subjects' blood values looked like they had just wolfed down some fried chicken. How can this be?
Fructose really turns up the lipogenesis by bypassing the most important regulatory enzyme in our carbohydrate biochemistry, PFK-1. This supplies our bodies with a bountiful supply of acetyl-CoA and glycerol, the building blocks of fat.[5]
http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_nutrition/thank_you_for_guzzling_corn_syrup
There is nothing wrong with fructose from fruit, have you ever seen someone get fat from eating too many apples? But the opposite cant be said with someone eating to many products containing HFCS e.g. sweets and soda.
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More on fructose/HFCS, this bit related particularly to athletes and/or people who exercise a lot: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=gmail&attid=0.1&thid=129eb842f7251360&mt=application/pdf&url=https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui%3D2%26ik%3D408d536b32%26view%3Datt%26th%3D129eb842f7251360%26attid%3D0.1%26disp%3Dattd%26zw&sig=AHIEtbQ_Z0cNKp1V0DgqZ8IHNxmxp4Xo7g (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=gmail&attid=0.1&thid=129eb842f7251360&mt=application/pdf&url=https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui%3D2%26ik%3D408d536b32%26view%3Datt%26th%3D129eb842f7251360%26attid%3D0.1%26disp%3Dattd%26zw&sig=AHIEtbQ_Z0cNKp1V0DgqZ8IHNxmxp4Xo7g)
Salient quote:
Fructose is a monosaccharide that is the principal sugar present in fruits and honey. Table sugar (sucrose) derived from sugar cane and sugar beets is another source of fructose, as this disaccharide is degraded by sucrase in the intestine to equal parts glucose and fructose. The other major source of dietary fructose is high fructose corn syrup (HFCS), which is generated enyzmatically by converting corn starch to a mixture of fructose and glucose, often in a 55:45 mixture. HFCS is a common sweetener because it is liquid and mixes well, does not crystallize with freezing, is relatively inexpensive, and has a long shelf life. Natural fructose also is present in some vegetables (such as the sweet pea and sweet potato), but most fructose ingested today comes from products containing sugar and HFCS. It should be noted that HFCS comes in two commercially used variants: HFCS-55, as described above, and HFCS-42, in which only 42% of the total carbohydrate is fructose. In other words, HFCS-55 delivers slightly more fructose than table sugar (sucrose is composed of 50% glucose and 50% fructose), whereas HFCS-42 delivers slightly less fructose. HFCS-55 is used more often as a sweetener because its higher fructose content confers greater perceived sweetness. Most importantly, from a metabolic perspective, the three sugar sources are indistinguishable.
So what again is wrong with HFCS?
Cmon man, you trying to tell me that there is nothing wrong with eating refined products that contain HFCS? I don't mind fructose as long as its from fruit. HFCS is refined, contains empty calories and not good for developing a good physique so i would rather stay away from it.
Since we're talking sugars, let's highlight the differences between fructose and glucose (the sugar that most of our ingested carbohydrates become when they hit the bloodstream).
Fructose is absorbed through the intestine via different mechanisms than glucose. In addition, fructose has a slower rate of uptake.
Unlike glucose, fructose doesn't stimulate a substantial insulin release. Fructose is transported into cells via a different transporter than glucose. Once fructose is in the liver, it can provide glycerol, the backbone of triglycerides (fat), and increase fat formation.
Some people may have an inability to completely absorb fructose when ingested in a high dose of around 50 grams. Note, that's a lotta fructose. We're talking four to five medium apples. Conversely, a 16 ounce juice with HFCS can provide around 45 grams of fructose. Hello, flatulence.
Consuming glucose with fructose at the same time accelerates the absorption of fructose. This is one of the reasons that many sports drinks contain a mixture of sugars.
So, as you can see, there are some clear differences in absorption, digestion, and metabolism between fructose and glucose.
Your Liver, Leptin, and Why You're Still Eating
The liver is the major site of fructose metabolism. In the liver, fructose can be converted to glucose derivatives and stored as liver glycogen — which is good if you're physically active.
However, the liver's ability to do this is limited — which isn't so good. With very high single-serving doses of fructose, the fructose that arrives at the liver can easily be converted to fat. This is more prominent in clients with high blood lipids, insulin resistance, or Type II diabetes.
Now, blood levels of fructose aren't directly subject to tight hormonal regulation. This is one of the reasons fructose has a low glycemic response — which is often considered a positive.
On the negative side, while high intakes of fructose can lead to the synthesis of fat, it also fails to stimulate the production of leptin.
Since leptin is a hormone involved in the long-term regulation of energy balance, the decrease in leptin production associated with chronic high fructose intake can have harmful effects on the regulation of energy intake and body fat.
In other words, with HFCS, you never get those "I'm full" signals from the brain. So you keep eating.
Although fructose is low on the glycemic scale and can help replenish liver glycogen in the very physically active, excess intake of fructose can lead to the creation of fats in the liver, as well as short circuiting our energy balance and body fat regulating systems.
As a result, central obesity, low levels of good cholesterol, high levels of bad cholesterol, high triglycerides, and poor appetite control have been linked to consuming high amounts of high fructose sweeteners.
http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_nutrition/fructose_wars
Fact #3: Metabolic mayhem ensues after HFCS ingestion.
Let me ask you this: where in nature could our hunter-gatherer ancestors quickly guzzle down 100 grams of sugar? You guessed it, nowhere. It just ain't natural. It astounds me that the human body can even deal with a Super Big Gulp. And actually, it doesn't deal with it very well.
Guzzling Corn Syrup
When a human being quickly introduces that much sugar, his body does what it must: turn it into triglycerides (fat). I've seen some disturbing blood work after ingestion of a fat-free, high-fructose meal, in which the subjects' blood values looked like they had just wolfed down some fried chicken. How can this be?
Fructose really turns up the lipogenesis by bypassing the most important regulatory enzyme in our carbohydrate biochemistry, PFK-1. This supplies our bodies with a bountiful supply of acetyl-CoA and glycerol, the building blocks of fat.[5]
http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_nutrition/thank_you_for_guzzling_corn_syrup
There is nothing wrong with fructose from fruit, have you ever seen someone get fat from eating too many apples? But the opposite cant be said with someone eating to many products containing HFCS e.g. sweets and soda.
ya i'm with Tam on this one.. i mean, sure that study shows that result, but i've seen plenty of studies that showed some adverse effects of HFCS and fat metabolism/insulin/cortisol compared to fructose from fruit etc.
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TMuscle is so deeply full of shit that I basically assume anything on there is wrong. HFCS is totally fine in moderation. If all your carbs come from HFCS, that's one thing. But as an ingredient in a PWO shake, or every once in a while in some ice cream or cake or whatever, it's not a big deal. The point is that metabolically, it's just sugar. There's nothing especially bad about it except for how pervasive it is.
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TMuscle is so deeply full of shit that I basically assume anything on there is wrong. HFCS is totally fine in moderation. If all your carbs come from HFCS, that's one thing. But as an ingredient in a PWO shake, or every once in a while in some ice cream or cake or whatever, it's not a big deal. The point is that metabolically, it's just sugar. There's nothing especially bad about it except for how pervasive it is.
Yeah there maybe a few shit articles on t muscle but I think Dr. John Berardi knows what he is talking about as well as Dr. Lonnie Lowery.
http://www.johnberardi.com/about/jb.htm
http://staleytraining.com/articles/lonnie-lowery/1-lonnie-lowery-articles.htm
I would stay clear of it in a PWO ingredient as well, but that's just me as i would like to have the best physique i can possibly achieve and wouldn't want anything to screw that up. Of course having cake and ice cream or whatever once in a while, if your diet is strict most of the time, aint going to hurt.
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TMuscle is so deeply full of shit that I basically assume anything on there is wrong. HFCS is totally fine in moderation. If all your carbs come from HFCS, that's one thing. But as an ingredient in a PWO shake, or every once in a while in some ice cream or cake or whatever, it's not a big deal. The point is that metabolically, it's just sugar. There's nothing especially bad about it except for how pervasive it is.
Yeah there maybe a few shit articles on t muscle but I think Dr. John Berardi knows what he is talking about as well as Dr. Lonnie Lowery.
http://www.johnberardi.com/about/jb.htm
http://staleytraining.com/articles/lonnie-lowery/1-lonnie-lowery-articles.htm
I would stay clear of it in a PWO ingredient as well, but that's just me as i would like to have the best physique i can possibly achieve and wouldn't want anything to screw that up. Of course having cake and ice cream or whatever once in a while, if your diet is strict most of the time, aint going to hurt.
cake = FAIL
ice cream = WIN
ice cream still has a good amount of protein in it usually :D
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I agree, the post is worth it despite the load time. I'm wondering though, why LBSS seems so vehemently against just about anything outside of bodyrecomposition.com
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I agree, the post is worth it despite the load time. I'm wondering though, why LBSS seems so vehemently against just about anything outside of bodyrecomposition.com
well, he gave lyle a big hug, on his nuts, and has yet to let go. He has a very strong grip and amazing pec/lat endurance. :P
the info on bodyrecomposition is really good i do admit compared to many supplement companies who try and push all types of junk science down our throats.. lyle keeps it pretty simple and definitely doesn't come off as a hype artist.. his information is very solid, while t-nation makes claims of 28 lb lean mass in 8 weeks using anaconda or whatever.. so alot of people (and some on here) have some pretty nasty remarks about the good ole` folks at t-nation.
peace
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I agree, the post is worth it despite the load time. I'm wondering though, why LBSS seems so vehemently against just about anything outside of bodyrecomposition.com
I'm not vehemently against anything outside br.com. That would also be retarded. However, the quality of information on there is so much higher than anywhere else I've found that until I find someplace better -- and trust me, I look -- I rely on Lyle for the most part.
Largely because, unlike most other nutrition sites I've seen, HE DOESN'T FUCKING LIE ALL THE TIME* and HE ISN'T A FUCKING MORON.** Also, Lyle's support forum is moderated only for civility, unlike TMag's or practically anyone else's message board. You can troll him to your heart's content, ask the dumbest questions possible, and he will not censor or ban you. Because he's not selling bullshit and he actually knows what he's talking about.
*See: Practically everyone who writes for TMag
**See: Practically everyone who advocates for the Paleo diet/lifestyle, including the two-years-ago version of myself.
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Also, I think adarq meant to refer to my exceptionally strong jaw musculature.
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I agree, the post is worth it despite the load time. I'm wondering though, why LBSS seems so vehemently against just about anything outside of bodyrecomposition.com
I'm not vehemently against anything outside br.com. That would also be retarded. However, the quality of information on there is so much higher than anywhere else I've found that until I find someplace better -- and trust me, I look -- I rely on Lyle for the most part.
Largely because, unlike most other nutrition sites I've seen, HE DOESN'T FUCKING LIE ALL THE TIME* and HE ISN'T A FUCKING MORON.** Also, Lyle's support forum is moderated only for civility, unlike TMag's or practically anyone else's message board. You can troll him to your heart's content, ask the dumbest questions possible, and he will not censor or ban you. Because he's not selling bullshit and he actually knows what he's talking about.
*See: Practically everyone who writes for TMag
**See: Practically everyone who advocates for the Paleo diet/lifestyle, including the two-years-ago version of myself.
To say that every author on t muscle lies and is a moron is retarded and ignorant to say. If you "looked" hard enough then you would found a few good authors such as Dr. John berardi, christian thibaudeau, Dr Clay Hyte, Eric Cressey, Dave Tate and Jim wendler. Now if you had to say the forum members are morons, i would have to agree with you but there is some good material on t muscle.
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Please retake reading comprehension. I didn't say the people who write for TMag are morons, I said they LIE ALL THE FUCKING TIME. You're right, some of the authors actually do know a lot.
Berardi: Sucks
Hyte: Never read anything by him, so fair enough
Cressey: Knows plenty and has some good info but still pisses me off because of the whole obnoxious internet circle-jerk with Robertson, Gentilcore, Alwyn "Plagiarist" Cosgrove, etc.
Tate: Yup, been around for a million years, knows his shit. Still wouldn't trust a lot of what he writes on TMag and would prefer to read things he wrote before they found him.
Wendler: See entry for Tate.
I'd add that Dan John is absolutely bad ass and knows as much as anyone on earth about getting strong. Some of the articles on there are good, no doubt about it. But the purpose of that site is to sell insanely overhyped and overpriced supplements that are useless or at least comparable to or inferior to much cheaper versions. Therefore even the "good" authors on there, including a couple of the ones you pointed out, often have to lie through their teeth in those articles.
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I agree, the post is worth it despite the load time. I'm wondering though, why LBSS seems so vehemently against just about anything outside of bodyrecomposition.com
I'm not vehemently against anything outside br.com. That would also be retarded. However, the quality of information on there is so much higher than anywhere else I've found that until I find someplace better -- and trust me, I look -- I rely on Lyle for the most part.
Largely because, unlike most other nutrition sites I've seen, HE DOESN'T FUCKING LIE ALL THE TIME* and HE ISN'T A FUCKING MORON.** Also, Lyle's support forum is moderated only for civility, unlike TMag's or practically anyone else's message board. You can troll him to your heart's content, ask the dumbest questions possible, and he will not censor or ban you. Because he's not selling bullshit and he actually knows what he's talking about.
*See: Practically everyone who writes for TMag
**See: Practically everyone who advocates for the Paleo diet/lifestyle, including the two-years-ago version of myself.
i've been modded a bunch of times on t-nation for "posting stuff that would conflict with t-nation", or so the mods told me in the reply.. hehe
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I don't think I would like anything moderated if I was bashing a site for lying, at least this site tries to have civil discussion. Also, I really don't like supplement companies to begin with, especially when they make outrageous claims. The only thing I've read from Berardi is Scrawny to Brawny and his credentials which so far give me the impression that he really knows what he's talking about. (maybe not within TMag, I haven't even been on there) Also, just saying that he sucks isn't a good argument. Plus, he's a living example of his own material, so for now I'll trust him.
Also, I was looking at br.com and I agree, they have really fantastic information. I especially like the article on building calf muscles, I'll be using it, most programs don't incorporate calves or just do a very poor job of it.
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Largely because, unlike most other nutrition sites I've seen, HE DOESN'T FUCKING LIE ALL THE TIME* and HE ISN'T A FUCKING MORON.** Also, Lyle's support forum is moderated only for civility, unlike TMag's or practically anyone else's message board. You can troll him to your heart's content, ask the dumbest questions possible, and he will not censor or ban you. Because he's not selling bullshit and he actually knows what he's talking about.
That's a load of crap. Remember when he banned anyone who mentioned rippetoe owning him?
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I don't think I would like anything moderated if I was bashing a site for lying, at least this site tries to have civil discussion. Also, I really don't like supplement companies to begin with, especially when they make outrageous claims. The only thing I've read from Berardi is Scrawny to Brawny and his credentials which so far give me the impression that he really knows what he's talking about. (maybe not within TMag, I haven't even been on there) Also, just saying that he sucks isn't a good argument. Plus, he's a living example of his own material, so for now I'll trust him.
Also, I was looking at br.com and I agree, they have really fantastic information. I especially like the article on building calf muscles, I'll be using it, most programs don't incorporate calves or just do a very poor job of it.
most people like to talk shit about the calfs.. "p-chain bro!".. it's odd how a muscle group can just become "unimportant". It's kind of how the quadriceps have become "unimportant". People everywhere bash the quads and calfs while drooling over glutes & hams.. sure, most people's glutes and hams are underdeveloped, but that's no reason to minimize the important of such important muscle groups as quads/calfs.. all muscle groups are important, otherwise they wouldn't be there.. people are nuts.. quads/calfs play a huge role in vertical, as well as a stabilizing force (quads) during plant & acceleration in sprinting, calfs play an important role in everything involving sprinting/jumping.
but ya, im not really for direct training of the quads, except for TKE's (terminal knee extensions) on leg extension or manual resistance.. calfs/glutes/hamstrings i'm for isolation training, as well as of course the big compound movements (squat/lunge/etc).
peace
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Largely because, unlike most other nutrition sites I've seen, HE DOESN'T FUCKING LIE ALL THE TIME* and HE ISN'T A FUCKING MORON.** Also, Lyle's support forum is moderated only for civility, unlike TMag's or practically anyone else's message board. You can troll him to your heart's content, ask the dumbest questions possible, and he will not censor or ban you. Because he's not selling bullshit and he actually knows what he's talking about.
That's a load of crap. Remember when he banned anyone who mentioned rippetoe owning him?
LOL.. on what, that GOMAD experiment?
haha
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Every muscle is important to the total physique. I like what Pavel said in the Naked Warrior, "Everything in your body is interrelated and isolation is a myth."
Though I think isolation workouts are great for building muscles like the calves, I still think great strength comes from compound lifts and exercises.
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I'm not gonna defend Lyle in the whole Rippetoe shit, he acted like a giant prick, got caught doing it and was incapable of apologizing or ceding even a little bit of ground. That was lame. But I don't remember anyone getting banned for that specifically, though? I'm pretty sure the only people he's banned were people who violated his forum's very, very few rules (don't make fun of Tillerman, the guy on there who died of cancer; don't make fun of Lyle and speedskating; don't complain about not being able to do those two things). Most of the trolls (Brother, Ultra Round, nisora23, The Metronome, butkus, etc. -- I just checked, didn't know them off the top of my head :D) who flamed him after the shit with Rip went down are still active accounts. The one in the Rip's Forum thread who's gone now, superman, wouldn't stop violating the skating rule, so he got banned. But that seems reasonable to me and the warning is clear.
Also, far from censoring people who call him out, Lyle admits it and apologizes when he's wrong about something factual, including in that very thread, at least twice.
And none of that changes the fact that his info is better/more honest/clearer than anyone else's that I've seen.
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Every muscle is important to the total physique. I like what Pavel said in the Naked Warrior, "Everything in your body is interrelated and isolation is a myth."
Though I think isolation workouts are great for building muscles like the calves, I still think great strength comes from compound lifts and exercises.
^^^True.
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This winter I did this:
Pre: 30g whey protein+30g dextrose
Post: 30g whey protein+45g dextrose
Now I just try and get my pwo meal as fast as possible (read within 30min). If this is not possible I try to just get some milk or some other source of protein. Sometimes I bring 1l of milk for training. But thats not often.
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I'm gonna defend Lyle in the whole Rippetoe shit,
im shocked
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Lulz @phil