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Blog Section => Performance Training Blog => Topic started by: adarqui on March 19, 2011, 03:14:24 am

Title: length-tension-motor-pool Volume Sessions (LTMP-VOLUME sessions)
Post by: adarqui on March 19, 2011, 03:14:24 am
length-tension-motor-pool (LTMP-VOLUME) sessions.


(http://i.imgur.com/rLiQX.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/IjsPS.png)

Ok so the title sounds really advanced, but that's just because I can't really think of a cool title for this blog. As usual, going to try and keep it very short, this is more of a concept blog and one should realize I've only recently been utilizing this exact ideology of training, so it's long term effects are unknown, which in fact could predispose someone to even greater risk of injury. So keep that in mind. Though, so far so good.

(http://i.imgur.com/YE1kk.png)

I had this huge blog written but i'm going to keep this ridiculously simple.

If your goal is elite performance, you need to stimulate the highest threshold motor units of your prime movers on a daily basis, in fact possibly multiple times per day. Why do we allow our highest threshold MU's to lay dormant for days until our next max effort session? Training at a very high velocity, daily, is dangerous, so tapping into the fastest MU's using high velocity + high frequency training has far more risks than benefits, which include physiological, neural, and psychological fatigue. So what is the solution? To stimulate as much MU's as possible, every day, using submax intensity + "fatiguing work". This means, operating at 60-80% of 1RM and performing reps non stop, tempo doesn't matter, absolutely no rest in between, until failure or very close to it. This method becomes much safer than high frequency 90+% lifting, as it is far less draining neurologically, and is in fact very much restorative due to blood flow/temporary hypoxic environment. Thus, tapping into these MU's daily, or multiple times daily, using less fatiguing and in fact restorative methods, encourages growth of the entire motor pool, improves motor learning which builds connections which access these highest threshold MU's, aids in recovery, results in a significant amount of post-activation-potentiation (PAP/STIM), and should improve strength in regards to motor learning of the specific movements (such as improving strength at half squat depth).
 
So what does this mean? It means we can train at a relatively high intensity, using a submax RE method, which allows us to train more per week, month, and year than we ever thought possible. The amount of sessions we can handle per day, or week, depend on our progression & development of our work capacity. People accustomed to high frequency training can get away with multiple sessions per day. People who have no experience in high frequency training would need to stay strictly within the 1x/day limit for safety reasons. Regardless, progression of this ideology of training results in endless capability for growth. The percentages used per LTMP-VOLUME session can vary, as long as the tempo, no-rest, velocity, and "failure" guidelines are adhered to. This allows us to take advantage of what is considered the most powerful form of motor learning: randomized learning aka contextual interference (as opposed to block learning). Keep in mind these sessions are supplementary, they should not result in one "changing their program" to account for the LTMP-VOLUME sessions. The LTMP-VOLUME sessions are to be non fatiguing and in fact restorative, so they have no bearing on your actual "program".

So we covered the motor pool aspect, but what about the "length tension" relationship. This is where we kill two birds with one stone, if that even makes sense. Part of the motor learning aspect of this training, involves improving the resting length of our muscles/fascia prior to each LTMP-VOLUME session (well, the stretching part is considered the beginning of the ltmp-VOLUME session). Each LTMP-VOLUME session starts with mobility work of some sort, which can include but is not limited to: static stretching, pnf stretching, dynamic stretching/mobility/warmup, etc. Regardless of the method chosen, the idea is to "improve resting length" of key muscle groups. For lower body, this includes calfs, quads, hip flexors, hamstrings, glutes, adductors, and lats. So, prior to hitting our restorative squat, we would spend 15-30 minutes stretching to improve resting-length. Improving resting length WITHOUT improving the tension relationship is a problem, so, if we simply stretch without reinforcing the "tension relationship", we have a major problem. This is where we kill two birds with one stone. We lengthen, then utilize these muscle groups under tension in their slightly improved length. This will hopefully allow us to improve flexibility rather quickly while maintaining proper tonus in these muscle groups, for example, jello legs no longer exist from a long bout of static stretching, they in fact feel "loose" and ridiculously "springy", the active tonus is there, they are ready to fire.

So, putting it together, we lengthen, warmup using this "temporary" lengthened position, then perform a high rep submax fatiguing resistance exercise using these muscle groups, which if done using a high frequency approach, will result in very quick motor learning, recovery, stim, and thus more power.

An example LTMP-VOLUME session might look like this:


Stretching of various muscle groups: 15-30 minutes
Half squat: Warmup 30% x 10, 60-80% x F.
Done.



Something I'm thinking will work really good also will be this, have been doing it since tonight and it feels even better because of the interval sprints:


Stretching of various muscle groups: 15-30 minutes
Light interval sprints: Build up intensity over 10-20 sprints, do not exceed 70% effort
Half squat: Warmup 30% x 10, 60-80% x F.



Edited in, 03/19/2011: Another idea that might work, would be to hit a variety of exercises in the same manner, for example:


Stretching of various muscle groups: 15-30 minutes (upper AND lower)
Light interval sprints: Build up intensity over 10-20 sprints, do not exceed 70% effort
Half squat: Warmup 30% x 10, 60-80% x F.
Calf raises: Warmup 30% x 10, 60-80% x F.
Pullups: Warmup x ?, Work set x F
Pushups/dips: Warmup x ?, Work set x F



Edited in, 03/25/2011: Some other stuff:


Light completely stiff leg ankle hops: 4-5 x 25-50
RDL: Warmup 30% x 10, 60-80% x F.
Pullups: Warmup x ?, Work set x F
Calve Raises: Warmup 30% x 10, 60-80% x F


A good idea could be to alternate "knee bend exercises" (a-chain dominant: front/back/half squat/pin squat etc) with "stiff leg exercises" (p-chain dominant: 45 deg hyper, rdl, rev hyper, and let's include GHR), one could do this every other day, or rotating through the sessions throughout the day.

This method can most likely be used for more than squat, of course, but my guinea pig status stops at squat. One could do 3-4 squat sessions per day in this manner, or do a different lift per session. With all the talk of "neural charge", this is beyond a neural charge.

As far as injuries are concerned, I actually feel better following these LTMP-VOLUME sessions. My knees and all muscle groups become lighter and feel stronger/more explosive throughout the day. I've been utilizing this for nearly 2 weeks now and I don't know when I'm going to stop, because I can simply back off on the intensity per LTMP-VOLUME session to 60% and achieve failure on those, achieving basically the same effect.

So to summarize, why are we not stimulating the highest threshold MU's in the prime movers specific to our goals on a daily basis, or in fact, multiple times per day? If we can do so, job/school/life situations withstanding, then the potential for growth is endless. The potential for power, strength, hypertrophy, and PAP/STIM adaptations are enormous.

Here's my sessions over the last week or so, and my legs have never felt better. They in fact feel the best using the higher rep sessions and that is what i'm sticking with:

- 03/08/2011: 3 sessions of pin 6 squat: 225 x 5 {6pm, 7pm, 10pm}, one heavy half squat session also
- 03/09/2011: 4 sessions of pin 6 squat {3:30pm=225x5, 5:30pm=225x5, 2am=245x5, 4am=225x5}
- 03/10/2011: 2 sessions of pin 6 squat {11pm=225x10, 12:30am=225x10}, 2 heavy half squat sessions also
- 03/11/2011: 3 sessions of pin 6 squat {6pm=225x10, 9pm=225x10, 1am=225x10}
- 03/12/2011: 3 sessions of pin 6 squat {6pm=245x5, 9pm=245x5, 1:40am=245x5}
- 03/13/2011: 1 session of pin 6 squat {10am=225x5}, dunking, heavy squat session at night
- 03/14/2011: 3 sessions of pin 6 squat {7:30pm=135x10,225x5,275x5,295x1,315x1, pullups=10}, {11:30pm=135x8,225x5,275x5,295x1,315x1, pullups=8, prone-reverse-hyper=100}, {3am=prone-reverse-hyper BW@5x50, 135x8,225x5,275x5,295x1,315x1, pullups=10}
- 03/15/2011: 4 sessions of pin 6 squat {6pm=225x5, 2am=225x10, 3:30am=225x10, 5am=225x10}
- 03/16/2011: 2 sessions of pin6 squat {9pm=135x8,225x15,  12am=135x8,225x15}
- 03/17/2011: 3 sessions of pin 6 squats {9pm=135x8,245x10  2:30am=135x8,245x10  5am=135x8,245x12}
- 03/18/2011: 3 sessions of pin 6 squats {7pm=interval sprint + 265 x 10,  9pm=interval sprint + 265 x 8  3:30am=interval sprint + 265x10}

Again, keep in mind this is experimental, if you try it, start out with just 1 session per day and 60-70% of 1RM for at least a week or so, see how you feel, and make sure you get the stretching in, that is apart of this ideology. As always, listen to your body and back off when needed.

Make sure you keep your ego in check and keep it safe, this is supplementary to your normal routine which gives you all the more excuse to stay lighter and not push your limits per session. Pushing your limits comes through the frequency + STIM effect of this style of training.

peace
Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Sessions (LTMP sessions)
Post by: dirksilver on March 19, 2011, 11:10:52 am
very interesting sir very interesting...with my work schedule and life i don't know if i'd ever be able to do this...i could probably get 4 sessions a week 2 out of 3 weeks but and then maybe 2 the other...but no better and even that would be pretty tough to make!

what do the other resident scholars think?

keep erybody post so we see how you progress bah
Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Sessions (LTMP sessions)
Post by: JayC on March 19, 2011, 11:30:31 am
Sounds really interesting, I would defintley like to try this out some time but I should probaly stay with i'm doing for now.
How often do you lift heavy mutilple sets (if ever) then?
Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Sessions (LTMP sessions)
Post by: zgin on March 19, 2011, 12:44:12 pm
can i try this for lunges?
Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Sessions (LTMP sessions)
Post by: AlexV on March 19, 2011, 02:41:16 pm
Interesting

It reminded me of this post on Barry Ross's site:

:Drew Baye, a frequent Supertraining poster provided his analysis of these points a while back:

“High levels of acceleration are not necessary to recruit the high threshold IIB fibers. Even with loads as low as 60% of 1RM all the motor units in the primary muscles in an exercise will be recruited within a few reps after which force is maintained despite fatigue by increased rate coding.

Whether you move slowly or quickly, as long as you use at least a moderately heavy weight ALL of the motor units will be recruited.

Also, the type II fibers are not responsible for explosive movements. The “fast” and “slow” in “fast twitch” and “slow twitch” refers to the time in ms it takes a fiber to reach it’s maximum tension, not the speed of movement the fiber is capable of producing. The difference in twitch speed between slow and fast twitch is less than 1/10th of a second. Slow twitch fibers can produce rapid movements and fast twitch fibers will be involved in even extremely slow or isometric movements as long as there is adequate resistance.”

Of course, such statements raise counter-arguments:

One such argument is that higher levels of acceleration with submaximal weights generates more total force, which would result in the greatest recruitment of type 2 fibers. Slower movements, even though utilizing all fiber types, would create far less total force than a faster concentric pace.

Baye notes that, “due to greater cross-bridging a muscle is capable of contracting with more force at slower velocities (force/velocity curve) during concentric contraction."

Baye offers that the best way to increase force is not to rapidly accelerate, but to simply use a heavier weight. Doing so increases the tension over the full range of the exercise and not just during the initial acceleration.

He also tries to clarify this issue of muscle “twitch.”

“The reason they’re called fast “twitch” is because the twitch speed, or time it takes the fiber to reach maximum tension is faster – not the resulting speed of movement. Fast twitch motor units within a muscle are larger and as a result capable of producing greater force thus greater acceleration, but this is because of their size not necessarily their physiology. It is not necessary to move quickly to recruit them, however, only to use an adequately heavyweight.”

Baye’s take is that, with the exception of practice for a competitive lift, there is no reason to recommend moving quickly during exercise. Fast reps are not necessary to recruit the type IIB fibers, provide no advantage over slow reps with adequate resistance, and have the disadvantage of producing an inconsistent level of tension over the range of motion, not to mention an increased risk of injury.

I would have to look more closely at Baye’s analysis of an inconsistent level of tension and an increased rate of injury during these higher speed protocols, as well as his insight on a decrease in force as a result of kinetic energy imparted to themoving bar. Both concepts have been challenged on other forums.

Baye believes the best way to increase force is not to rapidly accelerate, but to simply use a heavier weight. Doing so increases the tension over the full range of the exercise and not just during the initial acceleration.
I do like Drew’s general guidelines for strength training:

1.Maintain strict body positioning and alignment.
2.Reverse direction smoothly with no bouncing, yanking, jerking or heaving.
3.Focus on intensely contracting the target muscles over the full range of the exercise.

As you fatigue the reps will become progressively slower. At this point you should attempt to gradually increase acceleration, trying to move faster but without altering body positioning and without jerking or heaving theweight . By this point it will be impossible for you to move faster if you maintain proper form and attempting to do so in a controlled manner will increase the intensity of contraction.

I think those of you doing any protocol with percentage at 85% of 1RM or greater would agree with these points.

One of Baye's key points:

'Lifting heavy will not make you slow; the stronger your muscles the more force they can produce the faster they can accelerate your body in the performance of any movement. Properstrength training will do far more to improve your running speed and vertical jump than plyometrics and will do so with much lower risk of injury.""
Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Sessions (LTMP sessions)
Post by: AlexV on March 19, 2011, 02:59:10 pm
Also reminds me of Thib's Perfect rep system a bit where you are essentilly waveloading between 60 and 85% of your 3RM  So closer to 80%1rm.  Only Thibs recommends lifting explosively.  I guess Adarq, according to this, would argue it is neurally more draining.  Personally I always feel fresher using the DE parameters in these %'s as opposed to getting near failure in the squat.

Of course he limits reps to the 1-5 rep range with more sets. So you are not training to fatigue.  You end up hitting 18-30 reps a day that don't approach failure.

And then there is Pavel's and Ross's PTP/GTG approach.

Recently I was reading Bompa's Periodization text and he had said that training frequency and intensity have the greatest impacts on results.  So the best bet is to train at high intensity and high frequency (motor learning) while still being able to recover.

Now this doesn;t mean doing a puke bucket plyo session.  Rather it means high quality.  Jump in sets of low reps (1-5) until your performance peaks or begins to fall and stop!  High intensity = high quality.

Look at your goal and see if you are following this advice.  In the weight room strength speed and max strength are the attributes most closely related to success.  Off the top of my head, alternating weight room work with blocks of PTP (ME) and CT's methods would work best.  Of course CT's system has you closing the explosive strength deficit which would mean that there will be a point where his system has you training kinda PTP style.

I'll close with this:

Pavel refers to training sessions and workouts as "practice".  If we take this concept in mind it may help bring clarity to our training programs.  AQs Dan John, quoting Dan Gable, has said "If it is important do it every day".  The concept of practice has its roots in motor learning.  We are teaching ourselves to be stronger and more explosive.
Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Sessions (LTMP sessions)
Post by: Raptor on March 19, 2011, 04:53:39 pm
So Andrew, for the work sets, do you do one work set to failure?

Meaning, a session is stretching + 1 warmup set + 1 work set then go home?

I was thinking about doing some squats before I go to work, so I could experiment on that doing it every day. Then do my usual workout on the evening.
Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Sessions (LTMP sessions)
Post by: adarqui on March 19, 2011, 06:57:34 pm
very interesting sir very interesting...with my work schedule and life i don't know if i'd ever be able to do this...i could probably get 4 sessions a week 2 out of 3 weeks but and then maybe 2 the other...but no better and even that would be pretty tough to make!

what do the other resident scholars think?

keep erybody post so we see how you progress bah

ya it's definitely easier when you have a power rack at home, makes the LTMP sessions much easier to get in. The actual lifting portion of them could be done in 5-8 minutes. The stretching portion could be done while watching tv etc.

pc man



Sounds really interesting, I would defintley like to try this out some time but I should probaly stay with i'm doing for now.

well that's the thing, you can stay with what you're doing now and incorporate some LTMP sessions.. they are light, restorative, and stimulatory.. they shouldn't negatively impact your current routine at all.



Quote
How often do you lift heavy mutilple sets (if ever) then?

well, i'd rather lift multiple sessions per day, if you can't do that, then i'd still stick with 1 set 1x/day. multi-set moderate-high rep sessions could turn this from restorative/stimulatory to fatiguing.

pC







can i try this for lunges?

sure i don't see why not, just make sure you alternate legs.
Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Sessions (LTMP sessions)
Post by: adarqui on March 19, 2011, 07:15:49 pm
Interesting

It reminded me of this post on Barry Ross's site:

:Drew Baye, a frequent Supertraining poster provided his analysis of these points a while back:

“High levels of acceleration are not necessary to recruit the high threshold IIB fibers. Even with loads as low as 60% of 1RM all the motor units in the primary muscles in an exercise will be recruited within a few reps after which force is maintained despite fatigue by increased rate coding.

Whether you move slowly or quickly, as long as you use at least a moderately heavy weight ALL of the motor units will be recruited.

Also, the type II fibers are not responsible for explosive movements. The “fast” and “slow” in “fast twitch” and “slow twitch” refers to the time in ms it takes a fiber to reach it’s maximum tension, not the speed of movement the fiber is capable of producing. The difference in twitch speed between slow and fast twitch is less than 1/10th of a second. Slow twitch fibers can produce rapid movements and fast twitch fibers will be involved in even extremely slow or isometric movements as long as there is adequate resistance.”

love that, thanks for re-posting it here, applies perfectly..





Quote
Of course, such statements raise counter-arguments:

One such argument is that higher levels of acceleration with submaximal weights generates more total force, which would result in the greatest recruitment of type 2 fibers. Slower movements, even though utilizing all fiber types, would create far less total force than a faster concentric pace.

Baye notes that, “due to greater cross-bridging a muscle is capable of contracting with more force at slower velocities (force/velocity curve) during concentric contraction."

Baye offers that the best way to increase force is not to rapidly accelerate, but to simply use a heavier weight. Doing so increases the tension over the full range of the exercise and not just during the initial acceleration.

He also tries to clarify this issue of muscle “twitch.”

“The reason they’re called fast “twitch” is because the twitch speed, or time it takes the fiber to reach maximum tension is faster – not the resulting speed of movement. Fast twitch motor units within a muscle are larger and as a result capable of producing greater force thus greater acceleration, but this is because of their size not necessarily their physiology. It is not necessary to move quickly to recruit them, however, only to use an adequately heavyweight.”

Baye’s take is that, with the exception of practice for a competitive lift, there is no reason to recommend moving quickly during exercise. Fast reps are not necessary to recruit the type IIB fibers, provide no advantage over slow reps with adequate resistance, and have the disadvantage of producing an inconsistent level of tension over the range of motion, not to mention an increased risk of injury.

I would have to look more closely at Baye’s analysis of an inconsistent level of tension and an increased rate of injury during these higher speed protocols, as well as his insight on a decrease in force as a result of kinetic energy imparted to themoving bar. Both concepts have been challenged on other forums.

Baye believes the best way to increase force is not to rapidly accelerate, but to simply use a heavier weight. Doing so increases the tension over the full range of the exercise and not just during the initial acceleration.
I do like Drew’s general guidelines for strength training:

1.Maintain strict body positioning and alignment.
2.Reverse direction smoothly with no bouncing, yanking, jerking or heaving.
3.Focus on intensely contracting the target muscles over the full range of the exercise.

As you fatigue the reps will become progressively slower. At this point you should attempt to gradually increase acceleration, trying to move faster but without altering body positioning and without jerking or heaving theweight . By this point it will be impossible for you to move faster if you maintain proper form and attempting to do so in a controlled manner will increase the intensity of contraction.

I think those of you doing any protocol with percentage at 85% of 1RM or greater would agree with these points.

One of Baye's key points:

'Lifting heavy will not make you slow; the stronger your muscles the more force they can produce the faster they can accelerate your body in the performance of any movement. Properstrength training will do far more to improve your running speed and vertical jump than plyometrics and will do so with much lower risk of injury.""

i think alot of that applies to this method i am talking about, but, with max effort style lifting, i still prefer to work on speed during the transition of each lift. I think it's better to really work on reversal speed than to just smoothly control the reversal.







Also reminds me of Thib's Perfect rep system a bit where you are essentilly waveloading between 60 and 85% of your 3RM  So closer to 80%1rm.  Only Thibs recommends lifting explosively.  I guess Adarq, according to this, would argue it is neurally more draining.  Personally I always feel fresher using the DE parameters in these %'s as opposed to getting near failure in the squat.

I definitely would find that to be more draining than slow 60-80% higher rep, i know for certain i would really burn myself out quick while working on speed 3-4x/day using those guidelines. I can "feel" the fatigue from higher speed training vs slow controlled moderate-high rep lifting, it's hard to explain but I basically feel shut down when my frequency of explosive lifts is very high, especially if all of these lifts/movements really target the quads. If my quads are at all dead, the only thing I can really do is sprint, jumping/rebounding exercises/explosive squatting are "inhibited" in my mind, again hard to explain, but last night for example, still have quad fatigue from two days prior, I couldn't even do one rebounding tuck jump.. body wouldn't let me, I could force it of course, but i listen to those feelings and back off.. Body did let me do light sprints though, because quads were fine during those movements.

so ya, high freq explosive work really drains me.. I can't jump max back2back days, perhaps it is just an individual thing.



Quote
Of course he limits reps to the 1-5 rep range with more sets. So you are not training to fatigue.  You end up hitting 18-30 reps a day that don't approach failure.

And then there is Pavel's and Ross's PTP/GTG approach.

Recently I was reading Bompa's Periodization text and he had said that training frequency and intensity have the greatest impacts on results.  So the best bet is to train at high intensity and high frequency (motor learning) while still being able to recover.

yup, that's my mindset too, through trial and error thats what i've found to be true for myself and others.. I just can't apply it to ballistic movements, or a host of issues start manifesting themself.




Quote
Now this doesn;t mean doing a puke bucket plyo session.  Rather it means high quality.  Jump in sets of low reps (1-5) until your performance peaks or begins to fall and stop!  High intensity = high quality.

Look at your goal and see if you are following this advice.  In the weight room strength speed and max strength are the attributes most closely related to success.  Off the top of my head, alternating weight room work with blocks of PTP (ME) and CT's methods would work best.  Of course CT's system has you closing the explosive strength deficit which would mean that there will be a point where his system has you training kinda PTP style.

I'll close with this:

Pavel refers to training sessions and workouts as "practice".  If we take this concept in mind it may help bring clarity to our training programs.  AQs Dan John, quoting Dan Gable, has said "If it is important do it every day".  The concept of practice has its roots in motor learning.  We are teaching ourselves to be stronger and more explosive.

excellent quotes and posts..

i completely agree with the "practice" concept and "if it is important do it every day".. What I had to figure out was, what do i do every day?? I obviously can't jump every day, it destroys me.. what I can do every day: submax lifting for moderate-high rep, bodyweight exercises (high rep), light interval sprints from 10-60m, max effort short sprints (10-20m), and that's about it. So jumping is my goal, but it's not something that is "important", the important things are teaching myself to recruit more mu's as much as possible, getting stronger, getting "stimmed", not draining myself, and getting in those light or explosive short sprints to keep that "rebounding stimulus in" without fatiguing my quads.

peace man great posts, loved it.
Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Sessions (LTMP sessions)
Post by: adarqui on March 19, 2011, 07:17:18 pm
So Andrew, for the work sets, do you do one work set to failure?

Meaning, a session is stretching + 1 warmup set + 1 work set then go home?

I was thinking about doing some squats before I go to work, so I could experiment on that doing it every day. Then do my usual workout on the evening.

cool try it out tell me how it goes, this will give you an excuse to go light, relax, and hit some higher rep work :)

yup one work set.. use your 'relaxation techniques' while lifting, stay relaxed, make everything seem effortless and completely controlled, breathe good etc.

get some safe (dont over do it) stretching in prior, then hit those 2 sets of squat and bam, done.. should make you feel really good.

peace
Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Sessions (LTMP sessions)
Post by: Clarence on March 20, 2011, 12:33:26 am
Seems like it's working well for you adarqui, but gotta admit i'm a bit weary of it.

I tried a squat daily program last year after reading something by Dan John advocating it...I kept the weight at about 70-80% and only did 1-2 sets...destroyed my hip.  Couldn't squat for about 6wks without pain.
Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Sessions (LTMP sessions)
Post by: adarqui on March 20, 2011, 02:45:50 am
Seems like it's working well for you adarqui, but gotta admit i'm a bit weary of it.

I tried a squat daily program last year after reading something by Dan John advocating it...I kept the weight at about 70-80% and only did 1-2 sets...destroyed my hip.  Couldn't squat for about 6wks without pain.

bet you went deep right??? :)

that's why i stay half.. allows me to do stuff like this without stressing the hip/knee joint nearly as much as below parallel squatting..

my hip felt a little sore the other day but it feels good right now.. that's the key man, going deep is a damn problem for stuff like this.. i'm not saying it can't be done for those with great hip mobility, but people with subpar, half is definitely the way to go.. in the very least, stuff like this gives people an excuse to make use of half squatting etc, and they will fall in love with it.

i'm only doing it off pins too, alot less stressful on the hip.

peace dude
Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Sessions (LTMP sessions)
Post by: adarqui on March 20, 2011, 05:32:53 am
to add to that, in case people have already read it.. my first HFSE (high frequency squat experiment) resulted in serious hip pain, i was going slightly below parallel, that's what caused me to eventually go half squat, which resulted in extra gains in vert and no hip pain.. so that's how i began half squatting.

so ya, if you do high frequency stuff deep, better listen to your body very well, or just suck it up folks and utilize pin/half squats, they rulz :D

pc
Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Sessions (LTMP sessions)
Post by: Raptor on March 20, 2011, 05:56:53 am
In my case, I have no pins so I don't really like to half squat because I'm going to use a bit of a heavier bar and if I can't go up with it anymore... then...
Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Sessions (LTMP sessions)
Post by: adarqui on March 20, 2011, 06:07:38 am
In my case, I have no pins so I don't really like to half squat because I'm going to use a bit of a heavier bar and if I can't go up with it anymore... then...

why can't you go up with it anymore?
Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Sessions (LTMP sessions)
Post by: adarqui on March 20, 2011, 06:23:58 am
edited this into the article,

Quote
Edited in, 03/19/2011: Another idea that might work, would be to hit a variety of exercises in the same manner, for example:

Stretching of various muscle groups: 15-30 minutes (upper AND lower)
Light interval sprints: Build up intensity over 10-20 sprints, do not exceed 70% effort
Half squat: Warmup 30% x 10, 60-80% x F.
Calf raises: Warmup 30% x 10, 60-80% x F.
Pullups: Warmup x ?, Work set x F
Pushups/dips: Warmup x ?, Work set x F

that would be for stimulating more muscle groups, that would pretty much nail everything.

pc
Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Sessions (LTMP sessions)
Post by: dirksilver on March 20, 2011, 07:32:13 am
edited this into the article,

Quote
Edited in, 03/19/2011: Another idea that might work, would be to hit a variety of exercises in the same manner, for example:

Stretching of various muscle groups: 15-30 minutes (upper AND lower)
Light interval sprints: Build up intensity over 10-20 sprints, do not exceed 70% effort
Half squat: Warmup 30% x 10, 60-80% x F.
Calf raises: Warmup 30% x 10, 60-80% x F.
Pullups: Warmup x ?, Work set x F
Pushups/dips: Warmup x ?, Work set x F

that would be for stimulating more muscle groups, that would pretty much nail everything.

pc


when you say x F you mean to failure right?
Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Sessions (LTMP sessions)
Post by: Raptor on March 20, 2011, 08:43:09 am
In my case, I have no pins so I don't really like to half squat because I'm going to use a bit of a heavier bar and if I can't go up with it anymore... then...

why can't you go up with it anymore?

Well you have the luxury of the pin cage. If you fail a rep, you just let the bar on the pins and that's it. For me, if that happens, I'm in a bad, baaad situation.
Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Sessions (LTMP sessions)
Post by: adarqui on March 20, 2011, 02:41:12 pm
edited this into the article,

Quote
Edited in, 03/19/2011: Another idea that might work, would be to hit a variety of exercises in the same manner, for example:

Stretching of various muscle groups: 15-30 minutes (upper AND lower)
Light interval sprints: Build up intensity over 10-20 sprints, do not exceed 70% effort
Half squat: Warmup 30% x 10, 60-80% x F.
Calf raises: Warmup 30% x 10, 60-80% x F.
Pullups: Warmup x ?, Work set x F
Pushups/dips: Warmup x ?, Work set x F

that would be for stimulating more muscle groups, that would pretty much nail everything.

pc


when you say x F you mean to failure right?

ya







In my case, I have no pins so I don't really like to half squat because I'm going to use a bit of a heavier bar and if I can't go up with it anymore... then...

why can't you go up with it anymore?

Well you have the luxury of the pin cage. If you fail a rep, you just let the bar on the pins and that's it. For me, if that happens, I'm in a bad, baaad situation.

you don't have a rack/half rack anywhere? and it's 60-80%, you can predict when you're going to fail pretty easy with that weight, if you're about to fail just dump it.
Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Sessions (LTMP sessions)
Post by: Raptor on March 20, 2011, 04:15:53 pm
Yeah, I know, it should work well for this type of training.
Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Volume Sessions (LTMP-VOLUME sessions)
Post by: JayC on March 26, 2011, 07:26:06 am
Could these sessions be done before and/or after basketball training?
Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Volume Sessions (LTMP-VOLUME sessions)
Post by: adarqui on March 26, 2011, 10:43:46 am
Could these sessions be done before and/or after basketball training?

yup, just have to keep it light though initially when trying that out.. i've done sessions with 10 rep squat hours before dunking etc, felt great when i dunked, but i'm used to it so, just hold back a bit more until you know how it'll effect you.

peace!
Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Volume Sessions (LTMP-VOLUME sessions)
Post by: JayC on March 26, 2011, 11:51:00 am
Aight  :)
Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Volume Sessions (LTMP-VOLUME sessions)
Post by: steventar on March 28, 2011, 04:30:49 pm
why is stretching without doing a strengthening exercise immediately afterwords a problem?
Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Volume Sessions (LTMP-VOLUME sessions)
Post by: DCJayhawk57 on March 28, 2011, 06:31:19 pm
What do you do to maintain the stretch/mobility after the post-workout period is over?

Reason I ask this is because of the idea of calf raises to failure.  Every time in my life I have attempted this I lose a significant portion of my calf mobility, sometimes for weeks.  Even if I stretch/etc. beforehand, it doesn't seem to matter once the workout is over, and post-workout stretching does not seem to remedy this.
Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Volume Sessions (LTMP-VOLUME sessions)
Post by: adarqui on March 28, 2011, 06:44:55 pm
why is stretching without doing a strengthening exercise immediately afterwords a problem?

well it's not, you could stretch after you lift, etc.. but if you spend alot of time stretching, improving rom, without "re-acclimating" those movements to produce force in those newly acquired ranges of movement, your power (explosive strength/reactive strength) production can suffer, max strength not so much, AND the new range of movement you acquired will be "more temporary, ie, less permanent". The idea here is to "reprogram the CNS", at a very fast rate, by stretching to improve range of motion but then following it up with moderate/heavy lifting, this reacclimates those movements for producing force with that newly acquired range of motion alot quicker, sort of how PNF stretching would leave you better at producing force after achieving greater resting length in the muscles, because PNF strengthens too, just like we're doing here.. that's why PNF, imo, is alot more beneficial than static regarding these issues, but static is still effective, i'm not saying it isn't.

Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Volume Sessions (LTMP-VOLUME sessions)
Post by: adarqui on March 28, 2011, 06:47:18 pm
What do you do to maintain the stretch/mobility after the post-workout period is over?

nothing, because it continues to exist afterwards.. you could stretch problem areas afterwards but i've found it's not needed at all with this style of training.



Quote
Reason I ask this is because of the idea of calf raises to failure.  Every time in my life I have attempted this I lose a significant portion of my calf mobility, sometimes for weeks.  Even if I stretch/etc. beforehand, it doesn't seem to matter once the workout is over, and post-workout stretching does not seem to remedy this.

well, if the frequency is high, it should help to alleviate that problem.. think of it as multiple sessions per day or at least 1x/day, you'd be stretching then strengthening, repeat.. so you'd keep reinforcing that improved resting length & cement those gains in with the tension exercises (calve raises).

pc

Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Volume Sessions (LTMP-VOLUME sessions)
Post by: horton on March 28, 2011, 11:48:50 pm
how would a session like this on a monday with a workout of heavy lunges on say thursday work? do you think 1 LTMP session a week is enough if you focus on increasing the amount of reps every week? i recover from workouts extremely slow so im trying to plan my training for when AAU season is over now
Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Volume Sessions (LTMP-VOLUME sessions)
Post by: adarqui on March 29, 2011, 12:00:14 am
how would a session like this on a monday with a workout of heavy lunges on say thursday work? do you think 1 LTMP session a week is enough if you focus on increasing the amount of reps every week? i recover from workouts extremely slow so im trying to plan my training for when AAU season is over now

nah, if you were going to do that, you'd want to just make that a normal session, not ltmp.. ltmp would be used WHENEVER throughout that week, could go VERY light, for example the 60% squatting for reps.. That's extremely light, it shouldn't cause any problems whatsoever with your other training, it should instead aid recovery and get you "more stimmed" for your real sessions.

so you could do a normal volume session on monday, that would make more sense.. 3-5 x 10 and a 20 repper for example (or do without the 20 repper etc).

one of the good things about high frequency training, it will improve your ability to recover from workouts.. if you got in more submax lifting sessions, your work capacity would improve.

peace!
Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Volume Sessions (LTMP-VOLUME sessions)
Post by: horton on March 29, 2011, 01:03:39 pm
how would a session like this on a monday with a workout of heavy lunges on say thursday work? do you think 1 LTMP session a week is enough if you focus on increasing the amount of reps every week? i recover from workouts extremely slow so im trying to plan my training for when AAU season is over now

nah, if you were going to do that, you'd want to just make that a normal session, not ltmp.. ltmp would be used WHENEVER throughout that week, could go VERY light, for example the 60% squatting for reps.. That's extremely light, it shouldn't cause any problems whatsoever with your other training, it should instead aid recovery and get you "more stimmed" for your real sessions.

so you could do a normal volume session on monday, that would make more sense.. 3-5 x 10 and a 20 repper for example (or do without the 20 repper etc).

one of the good things about high frequency training, it will improve your ability to recover from workouts.. if you got in more submax lifting sessions, your work capacity would improve.

peace!

ok thanks for the reply man, ive been reading through all the different articles on here just trying to prepare myself for once my aau season ends. When it ends im going to have from July-February to train before AAU starts again in March. Thats 8 months of training I think I can make some serious gains during that time. Without a doubt I'll be able to throw down with ease off 1 leg with 8 months of nothing but training. Im just looking for some guidance and the articles your write help bro.

I know Ive said it before but youre strength lately is incredible. I imagine reps with weights in the 400s this summer
Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Volume Sessions (LTMP-VOLUME sessions)
Post by: adarqui on March 29, 2011, 11:08:21 pm
how would a session like this on a monday with a workout of heavy lunges on say thursday work? do you think 1 LTMP session a week is enough if you focus on increasing the amount of reps every week? i recover from workouts extremely slow so im trying to plan my training for when AAU season is over now

nah, if you were going to do that, you'd want to just make that a normal session, not ltmp.. ltmp would be used WHENEVER throughout that week, could go VERY light, for example the 60% squatting for reps.. That's extremely light, it shouldn't cause any problems whatsoever with your other training, it should instead aid recovery and get you "more stimmed" for your real sessions.

so you could do a normal volume session on monday, that would make more sense.. 3-5 x 10 and a 20 repper for example (or do without the 20 repper etc).

one of the good things about high frequency training, it will improve your ability to recover from workouts.. if you got in more submax lifting sessions, your work capacity would improve.

peace!

ok thanks for the reply man,

np man



Quote
ive been reading through all the different articles on here just trying to prepare myself for once my aau season ends. When it ends im going to have from July-February to train before AAU starts again in March. Thats 8 months of training I think I can make some serious gains during that time.

definitely



Quote
Without a doubt I'll be able to throw down with ease off 1 leg with 8 months of nothing but training. Im just looking for some guidance and the articles your write help bro.

well, your case is unique in the sense that your knees can become an issue.. you have to find a way of strengthening your legs which doesn't bother your knees, that could be half squatting and/or lunging etc.. just have to find something that keeps your knees healthy and then go apeshit on it and improve strength like crazy, i imagine deep squatting for you definitely exacerbates the issues..

you could implement LTMP in addition to a program or by itself, the only thing would be to make sure you stay more towards the 60% range initially, first 1-2 weeks, just to make sure the knees aren't getting murdered.. playing bball is more intense than LTMP-lifting, so, but it comes down to finding a lift that doesn't aggravate issues.. you could load up a lift with 30% and if that lift doesn't agree with you biomechanically, it'll cause issues, so the key is to find something that allows you to push the weights without messing with those knees.. for me, that's half.. imagine if i was deep squatting with the type of frequency/volume i use? i'd be a mess, my hip would be destroyed before my knees would be.. staying above parallel keeps me in a much safer position and allows me to do what i do.

i'm starting to use ltmp in and of itself, i've pretty much cut out my normal lifting sessions.. for example, i'm lifting mostly LTMP-VOLUME sessions, but then i am throwing in LTMP-SINGLES sessions and really pushing the intensity on those WHEN I FEEL GOOD.. so i might go 3-4 days in a row with multi-session days using LTMP-VOLUME, then bam mentally i feel ready to hit some major singles, and i'll do so.. by staying in the submax range for the most part, i'm getting stronger without taxing my CNS.. the ltmp-singles sessions really tax my CNS/tendons much harder.. 90+% lifts put alot more pull on the tendons of course, and that's something i avoid with the 60-85% range during the LTMP-VOLUME sessions..

this ltmp framework is becoming a system in and of itself, pretty much guided by feel.. if you feel like hitting a max 20, go for it.. if you feel like hitting a 10, go for it.. very slow 10, very fast 20, then out of nowhere after a good night's rest you feel PR ready and go for some big lifts on LTMP-SINGLES, it's mostly a "by feel" approach but the reason it becomes effective is this:

1. lengthening (stretching) before tension, promotes better length-tension relationships
2. submax work improves recovery and still activates all mu's, while "bathing the muscle+fascia with blood" (recovery)
3. submax high rep work is a prolonged hypoxic environment which is very anabolic, time under tension is very important to strength/hypertrophy
4. submax work doesn't drain the CNS once you're adapted, initially sure because of soreness etc, but once you get past that initial soreness/draining phase, you'll feel fine the next day after hitting any number of sessions with 10-20 reps.. it really is amazing.
5. high frequency routines provide the greatest results, if a stimulus is provided day in and day out, even multiple times per day, the body has no choice but to adapt to survive, given adequate nutrition intake + sleep schedule.
6. improved work capacity, this style of lifting improves work capacity.. for example, if i'm stimulating max motor units 3x/day with half squat, vs 2x/week, i'm squatting 120 times a month vs 8 times a month, huge difference.. that would be over 1 year's worth of lifting done in 1 month, so you can see the potential for gains.
7. ltmp-singles sessions don't even need to be 100% psyche up.. you use all of the volume work to get stronger, then just test your new strength relaxed no psyche up using singles.. no need to push the maxes unless you really want too, the higher frequency submax work will push your maxes.. for nd, if you can squat 305 x 8, and you work around that realm, going 275 x 20, 305 x 10 breathing, 225 x 20 slower, 345 x MSEM singles, within a short while, that 305 will improve with most of the work coming submaximally.. you could in fact stay completely shy of 305 x whatever and work within the 275-295 range for more volume, busting ass on breather's, then go back to 305 and easily PR.

hope that helps.. this system is built more around submax work, but higher frequency.. so, if we really do "check our egos at the door", we can make some pretty impressive gains safely in the submax realm.. really focusing on moderate-high rep efforts @ a higher frequency results in some pretty impressive strength gains..

this approach is really a demonstration of "practice".. if you want a good jumper, got to shoot every day, mixing it up, all types of spots/volumes.. same for learning to recruit your mu's.. to tap into those dormant mu's, multiple times per day, is really effective at spurring on adaptations for using those mu's, making them stronger, etc.

think of recruiting mu's as a skill, this is a system aimed at improving that skill, without causing much CNS fatigue.

hope that helps

Quote
I know Ive said it before but youre strength lately is incredible. I imagine reps with weights in the 400s this summer

appreciate it man, hope so, that's the goal, i want 405 x 10 on pin 6 squat by august. :F

pc!
Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Volume Sessions (LTMP-VOLUME sessions)
Post by: horton on March 30, 2011, 10:12:31 am
Thanks for the reply man. Deffinetly lunges and half squatting will be best for my body. Even though my knee health is improving full squats just put too much pressure on, and half squats just feel so much better for my body. I deffinetly gotta get strong as hell in the half squat and lunges, especially in lunges because I really wanna improve my single leg jumping.

I really like the idea of LTMP-VOLUME sessions, I can imagine after 3 or so sessions of high volume that your legs would feel amazing and ready to PR on the singles. Without a doubt I am going to implement LTMP into my training. Just like you, id love to get 225x50 at 155lbs. I can only imagine squatting that number of reps is just as much a mental thing as it is physical, id imagine by the 30th rep or so you would start to get exhausted mentally too.

But I am deffinetly going to give this a try im excited to start training once AAU ends. I think lunges will help my single leg jumping a lot too.
Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Volume Sessions (LTMP-VOLUME sessions)
Post by: shammy12 on March 30, 2011, 04:51:32 pm
What will the difference be if I do 2 sets of LTMP in one session instead of doing 2 sets spread across two session?

I'm planning to do something like 1 session of SquatsxF, BSSxF and Calf Raises everyday. And do jumps like 2 or 3 times a week.
Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Volume Sessions (LTMP-VOLUME sessions)
Post by: ccameron on April 15, 2011, 06:58:03 pm
What do you think about really light ltmp as a form of rehab for certain muscle groups? Once the inflammation is gone and there is only shortened ROM and weakness do you think it would be an effective treatment?

I was thinking of trying really light rdl/wide stance box squat for my hamstring once it gets a little better.
Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Volume Sessions (LTMP-VOLUME sessions)
Post by: pelham32 on July 31, 2012, 07:14:45 pm
    Is any one still incorporating adarqui's concept of length tension motor pools in their workouts? Stretching and high rep squats? I really like the concept, any thoughts for people that tried it?
Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Volume Sessions (LTMP-VOLUME sessions)
Post by: adarqui on September 07, 2012, 09:49:36 am
    Is any one still incorporating adarqui's concept of length tension motor pools in their workouts? Stretching and high rep squats? I really like the concept, any thoughts for people that tried it?

ltmp/high rep/rested max was by far the best stuff i ever did.. rested max is crazy advanced tho i dont advise it unless you are crazy experienced, mostly because allowing your ego to triumph over common sense is pretty easy.. rested max requires staying below the threshold of psyching up/work up sets, the idea being you just go from homeostasis to a 'safe' max effort without any workup/psyche ups in between, so it requires alot of experience.

ltmp stuff can be done very safely imo.. especially if you play with the higher rep work more so than the max effort single etc.......

i never felt better when doing ltmp.. the combo of stretching + heavy high rep/heavy singles made me feel the most bouncy ive ever felt in my life.. was pretty shocking.. landed my best dunks using that technique too.

heavy high rep work is brutal but i feel it's the most effective... incorporating that with ltmp technique i really feel it's ridiculously powerful.

peace
Title: Re: length-tension-motor-pool Volume Sessions (LTMP-VOLUME sessions)
Post by: pelham32 on September 09, 2012, 09:33:45 pm
    Is any one still incorporating adarqui's concept of length tension motor pools in their workouts? Stretching and high rep squats? I really like the concept, any thoughts for people that tried it?

ltmp/high rep/rested max was by far the best stuff i ever did.. rested max is crazy advanced tho i dont advise it unless you are crazy experienced, mostly because allowing your ego to triumph over common sense is pretty easy.. rested max requires staying below the threshold of psyching up/work up sets, the idea being you just go from homeostasis to a 'safe' max effort without any workup/psyche ups in between, so it requires alot of experience.

ltmp stuff can be done very safely imo.. especially if you play with the higher rep work more so than the max effort single etc.......

i never felt better when doing ltmp.. the combo of stretching + heavy high rep/heavy singles made me feel the most bouncy ive ever felt in my life.. was pretty shocking.. landed my best dunks using that technique too.

heavy high rep work is brutal but i feel it's the most effective... incorporating that with ltmp technique i really feel it's ridiculously powerful.

peace






Hey thanks for the reply man!! Yeah I think you were on to something with the ltmp sessions. I've been incorporating them in a pretty much similar fashion.. What is the rested max useful for? For example is it kind of like if I jumped 40 inches with no warmup and no psyche up but with squatting, just getting really strong and be able to demonstrate that strength at any given time? Wish you were still making training vids, they were creatively awesome. You got me wanting to make some and post them.