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Some post on another forum: Why people fail
adarqui:
dno, I liked it, good info for the blog. It goes good with my recent post discussing the verkhoshansky quote.
http://wgfforum.llsint.com/Forums/showthread.php?p=6600&posted=1#post6600
peace
--- Quote from: Kesh;6597 ---I spent 7 years lifting, jumping, and running…
did not get more athletic though…
3 of those were at a university football program…
The whole team lifted, ran and jumped…
They all got stronger (so did I, a lot stronger) but no real improvement as far as athletic ability…
The good or great athletes on the team were the ones that came in that way…
You know the ones, hardly do any work, smoke weed, drink beer, eat pizza, then run a 4.4 forty…
I never saw one single person improve in athletic ability, not one….
--- End quote ---
The biggest problem with those programs, is that they usually do not manage fatigue properly. Genetic freaks will make the most progress, because their explosive strength deficit won't grow as much, as well as they recover faster. Everyone has different work capacities, to a point, so that training might be improving 20% of the team, but the other 80% could be sinking into a hole, never (or rarely) fully reaching a supercompensatory state for the next session. Managing fatigue is probably the most important factor concerning make progress in training, and this is where most people fail.
The problem with pretty much all of those programs, is that they focus almost entirely on max strength & hypertrophy. Someone who is not a genetic freak, is going to have to make sure that they don't increase max strength TOO MUCH without a rise in explosive strength, ie, making sure the explosive strength deficit does not grow. With less naturally explosive individuals, explosive strength will stall far sooner than max strength, so the deficit grows out of control. This is something I've come to realize with my own training & that of those I train, but it's also something Verkhoshansky has said on many occasions.
"in other words, what kind of training method has been used for the maximal strength increasing - if this strength has been developed using Bodybuilding methods (with muscle hypertrophy), it could not assure the explosive strength increasing." -- Verkhoshansky
Those programs also use inferior methods for improving explosive strength, such as power cleans. I call them inferior because, i'd say the majority of athletes in these programs have horrible form, so there are better alternatives, such as: REA squat, depth jumps, REA lunge, jump squats, clean pulls.
Those programs also, for the most part, lack a good implementation of reactive drills, such as low squat ankle hops, quick lunges, lateral barrier jumps, RFI, stiff leg ankle hops, double leg bounds (hurdle jumps). Maintaining proficiency or improving in these exercises is fundamental to becoming a better athlete.
I am far from a genetic freak, considering I could barely touch a basketball rim my whole life, with a 10'4 touch at age 25. I spent nearly 2 years getting my touch up to 11'3.5". The most effective training during this time, came towards the end, when I learned how to manage fatigue properly, creating ramps/trampolines by inducing fatigue with high frequency training microcycles, and then rebounding out & taking advantage of the supercompensation.
I've trained plenty of athletes, but a good example of managing fatigue came recently with my friend ARowe who I have been talking to for a year or so online. His SVJ/RVJ was suffering for months, it had dropped about 4 inches from his previous PR. He was just going in and lifting, focusing entirely on getting his squat up. So, he decided to put a technique I used during my high freq training to use, MSEM (maximal strength effort method ala Verkhoshansky). I helped him implement it, which calls for no-multi rep squatting sets, only singles with rest in between reps of a set. His SVJ/RVJ PR'd within 3 weeks. Through that 5 week block, he learned how to manage fatigue. HE KNEW when he would PR, and when he would not, a week in advance. He could FEEL how he would respond, prior to training. His work capacity is not near mine, as i'm a chronic over-worker with an insane work capacity, but he did experience the SAME EXACT results that I did. That being, learning how his body supercompensates and being able to design short blocks to peak vert using higher frequency training.
The point is, the meat of all this training we do IS IN the programming, not in some magical method such as iso extremes. iso extremes could be implemented into a traditional program with much success, but playing with fatigue levels and supercompensation is the key to making progress athletically. This is where everyone is failing, on all of the forums I visit.
I've looked through nearly EVERY log on db forum/TVS, a few on CF.
Work capacity needs to improve. Creating ramps/trampolines & rebounding needs to be mastered. Getting stronger, adding muscle in the right muscle groups, needs to happen.
--- Quote ---I understand that WGF methods are far far better than the old school, squat, clean, stanch, dead lift, jump, run programs… but a lot of what they do are based off of jay’s system…
If you say that they made it better… ok, that’s up for debate, but there is no denying where it is from…
--- End quote ---
I'm not so sure they are better, IMO. I've never implemented WGF's methods in my own training, but I can see how it would be very effective when implemented properly. It has all of the elements of a successful system.
I still prefer traditional methods though.
--- Quote ---Also, I have incredible amount of respect for those like, Verkhoshansky, Bondarchuk, Siff and Zatsiorsky…. They laid the ground work and we all are standing on their shoulders….
--- End quote ---
Training evolved, through the work of these coaches, then, through the insane growth of the s&c field, is beginning to de-evolve. Everyone wants to put their spin on training, create something new, come up with some magical formula.
Just like Schroeder or his cult disciples would say: The answers are already there, but i'm referring to the coaches you mentioned.
--- Quote ---Sometimes, however it is like apples to oranges…
These people are superb at taking (good-great) athletes and making them word class... same with CF….
What do you do with the kid who works his ass off, gets really strong but runs a 6 flat…. And just watching him run makes you cringe because he moves so awkwardly…
--- End quote ---
I'm not big on the whole compensation patterns/corrective exercise department. Sure, I'm for implementing corrective exercises, but i'm not for spending years trying to reprogram someone from the ground up.
To me, if someone is moving awkwardly, it's because they are not strong, or they lack movement efficiency (which is a result of strength). Even some of the best athletes move ugly or different from what we perceive as optimal.
If you get strong in the right muscle groups, as well as put in the required work on the track, you will get faster.
From what I see, most less-genetic athletes put too much dreams into the s&c program, and not on the track. Both of these elements fuse together to create progress. The problem is, I see people spending way too much time in the weight room, yet they want to get fast. To get fast, you have to put in the work on the track. The frequency of sprinting needs to improve, whether it be tempo or closer to maximal runs, the work has to get done. These athletes also have to improve their mastery on other, yet transferable movements, such as bounding and hops, which I rarely see. How many people do you see who want to improve their 40, learn to bound properly? But, this work cannot be done at the exclusion of improving lagging muscle groups such as the glutes & hamstrings. When proper attention is paid to both of these elements, progress is made.
If strength is improved, especially in the most important muscles groups required for sprinting, and sprinting is not neglected, and new movements are improved and mastered (bounds/hops/reactive), and fatigue levels are managed properly to ensure a top speed session IS TRULY top speed (supercompensated session), then there is no way that this athlete will not improve.
--- Quote ---In the USSR, that kid would have moved over to chess or violin….
--- End quote ---
Well ya, because they don't waste time with people who aren't going to be the cream of the crop. But for aspiring athletes, insane progress can be made. Athletes spin their wheels when phony coaches mislead.
peace
ESav15:
so basically
strenght base-muscle building+specific movement mastery+proper fatigue managing=success
Lack in one of those departments=FAIL
Am I forgetting something?
Andrew, I'm serious man, I must stop reading your posts for a bit. If I really care about my health, I just have to.
I mean, it's not fair to be so motivating.
all of those infos, principles and concepts... damn! I'm injured, I should be patient, and all I can think about right now is "gotta start training again no matter what"
Again: not fair.
adarqui:
--- Quote from: ESav15 on March 27, 2010, 09:04:40 pm ---so basically
strenght base-muscle building+specific movement mastery+proper fatigue managing=success
Lack in one of those departments=FAIL
Am I forgetting something?
--- End quote ---
nope, you pretty much nailed it. There are times within a training protocol, where one of those components will be emphasized more than the others. For example, early on strength & hypertrophy could be the primary focus, with movement prep/maintenance (reactive drills/plyo prep). If strength isn't rising significantly during this period, fatigue management will be the key. As you transition into peaking your performance, expressing the strength gained via higher intensity/lower volume training becomes the primary focus, so again, fatigue management becomes important.
Gains rely alot on how fatigue is managed, there should be some kind of overall plan. If the plan is to go hard for 4 weeks, knowing full well that performance may suffer, then following the 4 weeks, during a realization phase, one would expect to rebound significantly from that 4 week block, for at least 4 weeks, perhaps even longer depending on how concentrated the block was. A fatigue block could be 1 week, 4 weeks, 1 session, etc. One must understand that, while improving strength or adding muscle using moderate to high volume routines, performance may suffer, this could be due to RFD decreasing (due to a decrease in starting strength) or other factors such as inadequate recovery / nutrition etc. Starting strength will decrease because of how potent the multi-rep lifing stimulus is, why would the body give you everything in rep 1 when it has learned that there are 4-7 more reps left? It won't, it adapts. Type IIx fibers will shift more towards the characteristics of IIa fibers. This leads to a "slower profile". Even though this occurs, you can still actually make gains in vert, because, regardless of starting strength decreasing, peak strength is improving, and vert takes a considerable amount of time to express. Once you reduce fatigue & peak, starting strength will improve resulting in an improved RFD compared to the initial level, type IIa fibers will overshoot to type IIx fibers, and power will peak. Fatigue is going to effect speed alot more than vert, considering the importance of RFD, ground contact times & need for optimal limb quickness.
--- Quote ---Andrew, I'm serious man, I must stop reading your posts for a bit. If I really care about my health, I just have to.
I mean, it's not fair to be so motivating.
all of those infos, principles and concepts... damn! I'm injured, I should be patient, and all I can think about right now is "gotta start training again no matter what"
Again: not fair.
--- End quote ---
I apologize... hahaha! Can't wait to see you healthy again.
Maintain some kind of upperbody strength would be my advice. I personally would also perform leg exercises that do not hurt your knee, such as double leg glute bridges and/or calf raises. If you are planning on doing anything like that for your hips, ask your doctor first of course. There's always something we can do while injured to improve our abilities, that's just how i've always approached it.
peace man!
ESav15:
Well, it worked just as you wrote above for me.
At the beginning, the strenght gains transfer into vert was quite significant. I was surprised to the point I actually thought I could have focused only on lifting hard and see results despite neglecting everything else. Then my vert kinda plateaued a bit. So I went into your "power-strenght" routine, doing some stuff I never did before and cutting the volume with the weights in order to be fresh + stim two days before a dunk session and I was able to jump like never before. So, basing on my personal experience, I can only say your words are gold. Period.
Anyway, I'm actually training Upper body-core-doing calf raises right now.
;)
nothing more than that though.
I should have my MRI next week, so keep your fingers crossed for me.
vag:
Thats an awesome post , its the missing link for so many people!
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