Author Topic: One of my recents sprints  (Read 5421 times)

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Raptor

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One of my recents sprints
« on: July 18, 2013, 06:52:47 pm »
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Any criticism?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-g0oy0kJiwY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-g0oy0kJiwY</a>

LBSS

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Re: One of my recents sprints
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2013, 06:56:41 pm »
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grey and red is an abominable color combination.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

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Raptor

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Re: One of my recents sprints
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2013, 07:40:57 pm »
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Ah, that helps!

Thanks man!

seifullaah73

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Re: One of my recents sprints
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2013, 08:45:51 pm »
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That is impressive!
You could have accelerated a bit longer as you didn't have to raise your head up that early, just my 2 cents.
I think toddday would do a better job in analysing your sprinting.
nice job  :goodjobbro:
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acole14

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Re: One of my recents sprints
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2013, 10:02:06 pm »
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Looks pretty good to me. Spikes would probably take a bit of time off as well. I don't really know if lifting your head and coming out of drive phase sooner is better in a short 30m sprint compared to a 100m but yeah, wait to hear what TOdday has to say.

Raptor

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Re: One of my recents sprints
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2013, 05:13:17 am »
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I made a conscious effort to keep my head down... otherwise my tendency is to get tall and vertical immediately.

I just suck so much in terms of the acceleration phase... I'm the kind of guy that likes to stay tall and just paw the ground with straight legs so staying with the head down and "pushing" is not my cup of tea.

I might do some barefooted sprints soon, when and if I get healthy with my knee.

T0ddday

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Re: One of my recents sprints
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2013, 05:08:15 pm »
+1
Well the video is really only close enough to see the last 5 meters and your deceleration.   Get a video from the side angle rather than 3 quarter angle because we can't see much here.  It does look much better than the sprints on a tennis court you posted awhile back where you chopped your legs and hardly moved.  So improvement for sure.

You could have accelerated a bit longer as you didn't have to raise your head up that early, just my 2 cents.

What does acceleration have to do with having your head down?  This is one of the more frustrating things;  to go to a race and see a bunch of high school kids running with there head down for half the race because the coach read some drive phase head down mechanics BS. 
Your acceleration comes from your body angle not from where your head is.  Head down is just a cue, often it's a poor habit developed by athletes who practice a bunch of stride patterning.  Myself, I semi-pattern to about 10m so I'll sometimes catch myself looking at the ground till about there... 

Anyway, rant off.   Main point is if you aren't running 10.xx you don't need to be in drive phase for much of the race; keeping your head down cause you see the pros do it will only limit your performance.  Get to the passing zone (10m) in about 7 strides and practice falling starts or sled drags and acceleration will come naturally....  As you keep going you will get tall, if this happens at 12 meters so be it;  sure maybe you get vertical before others and you also don't accelerate as long.... Yes, if you could continue to accelerate you would get to a faster speed and that's great... But the solution is not to say "I'm gonna keep my head down for longer".  That will make you run slower.   Also, you can keep accelerating when you are somewhat vertical if your elastic enough; just keep your knee lift and heel recovery low and you can accelerate at high speeds if you are elastic enough.

Ben Johnson's head goes up after step 2.  Does that mean he isn't accelerating?


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoBGibav--A" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoBGibav--A</a>

Raptor

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Re: One of my recents sprints
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2013, 05:16:05 pm »
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For me... it's always been about getting up immediately basically and just sprint as fast as I can. I don't think about it at all.

It's also been about being extremely fast in terms of leg cycle frequency, even if the strides are short. That's how I have always sprinted. So since the strides are short and I am vertical then my knee lift is very low (you can see in the video I don't get my knees high at all... that would be a very illogical position in my case, I would just collapse into the ground from that height like a robot or something).

I've always been criticized that I don't get my knees high enough. Never felt natural at all.

Raptor

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Re: One of my recents sprints
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2013, 06:00:54 pm »
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Well... this is an older video of 2011 but it's in spikes and filmed from the start:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLlanWl89aI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLlanWl89aI</a>

T0ddday

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Re: One of my recents sprints
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2013, 02:10:24 am »
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For me... it's always been about getting up immediately basically and just sprint as fast as I can. I don't think about it at all.

It's also been about being extremely fast in terms of leg cycle frequency, even if the strides are short. That's how I have always sprinted. So since the strides are short and I am vertical then my knee lift is very low (you can see in the video I don't get my knees high at all... that would be a very illogical position in my case, I would just collapse into the ground from that height like a robot or something).

I've always been criticized that I don't get my knees high enough. Never felt natural at all.

Your start doesn't make sense.  There is no point in getting down in a three point stance if you are gonna rock into a full squat and then roll out of it forwards.  Just do a falling start or practice an actual start.   

Besides that it's fine if that is your cue; thinking of leg cycle frequency.   However, the majority of improvement for any sprinter comes from increased power off the ground which causes increased stride length.  Getting faster is about shorter and more powerful ground contacts.  If thinking about having fast leg cycle gets you to push your feet off the track faster then it doesn't matter.  It's not always about the cue being correct biomechanically it's about the cue causing you to do what is correct biomechanically.  Right now if you kept your head down for 30 meters and lifted your knees higher and stepped over more properly you would probably look more typical but be slower.   Hopefully your knee lift will come naturally as you get stronger.  Since you are weak right now you probably need to train more; perfecting weak form while you have no power makes very little sense. 

** I don't know what you mean about it being illogical to have knee lift when you are vertical?  The athletes with the most knee lift are those that run from a very vertical position....

Main point is make sure your strides are not too short (figure out where you are on your 7th footstrike).  If they are not then keep running however feels right and you will get stronger and faster and your form should come together.

Raptor

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Re: One of my recents sprints
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2013, 06:28:07 am »
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What I mean by illogical is why would you raise your knee at 2378948234723 meters when you're going to need to put it back down really fast for your next "cycle" of that leg? It feels like you need to get your knee high and then drop on that same leg's foot and run with each stride... it doesn't make sense at all. I don't get the need to exaggerate the knee lift - you will raise the knee as high as the body feels like you need to in order to be the fastest.

If I were stronger then maybe my technique would look different. I always felt like technique is 100% related to your strengths and weaknesses.

So I don't really care about my technique to be honest. I will fall into place in direct proportionality with my strength.

T0ddday

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Re: One of my recents sprints
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2013, 01:16:06 pm »
+3
If I were stronger then maybe my technique would look different. I always felt like technique is 100% related to your strengths and weaknesses.

So I don't really care about my technique to be honest. I will fall into place in direct proportionality with my strength.

Obviously, it's not 100% dependent on strength/power (see below).  Bad habits can and should be broken.  Additionally, some parts of the race are slightly counterproductive.  But on the whole I agree that you are "more correct" than the majority of people when it comes to analysis of sprint technique.  You can often tell by looking at a sprinter before they get in the blocks if they will have good technique; meaning it's more a function of  body composition and strength.    Most people tell you that you need to change this and that when you really just need to get faster and stronger.  This is especially true of the acceleration phase; get stronger and keep practicing and your clearance angles should clear up. 

What I mean by illogical is why would you raise your knee at 2378948234723 meters when you're going to need to put it back down really fast for your next "cycle" of that leg?*** It feels like you need to get your knee high and then drop on that same leg's foot and run with each stride... it doesn't make sense at all. I don't get the need to exaggerate the knee lift - you will raise the knee as high as the body feels like you need to in order to be the fastest.

This is an example of where technique might make a difference.  If optimal mechanics are counter-intuitive or the athlete does not understand the biomechanics of the movement it's helpful to nail down better motor patterns.   IMO acceleration mechanics are pretty intuitive.  This is because a) you can feel acceleration forces and thus figure out at a young age what to do to speed your body up b) most young kids play sports (soccer, tag, football) and thus get motor feedback on the movement which causes them to go faster at the contest.   However, you can't feel maintenance of velocity and unless you compete at track and field you really don't spend hardly anytime at maxV when playing sports.   

One solution and the best solution for this is to just train with someone with better maxV than you but not someone too many levels above you.  As you train with them over 50-150 meters and run shoulder to shoulder you will get feedback on the motor control necessary to run at maxV.  This is to an extent subconscious but it describes perfectly why they say you get speed when you train with speed.   It's also one the the reason I think the best male runner on a small college gets so much faster when he gets to a more advanced training group while this often doesn't happen to women; women already have men to key off, but the fastest man is on an island which makes it harder to improve.

***You have to realize the goal of running fast is not merely getting the leg down as fast as possible.  I can stand at the start line and chop my feet in place and get my feet 2x as fast as Usain Bolt but I won't win if I don't get anywhere.    This is how I have been taught to think about maxV mechanics and it makes the most sense to use this model:

1) The goal is first and foremost to push off the ground as hard as possible at the horizontal direction.  Force must also be applid in the vertical direction obviously; but the horizontal force off the ground is all the makes us go forward; nothing else contributes (arms counter eachother; knee lift brings us up but not forward; nothing we do in the air changes us; leg speed without horizontal force is useless, etc).    So first and foremost is horizontal force. 

2) Running is about making lots of horizontal forces; so you are correct after each one we want to make another one as soon as possible*.  However, we don't just want to get our foot back to the track we want to get our foot back to the track in the manner that will provide as the most horizontal force possible.   That means three things.  a) It has to strike in the right place relative to our COM (ie not in front of us; not way behind us)   b) it has to strike with force (ie we have to slam it down to the track as fast as possible).  c) It has to strike at a point where our body is moving horizontally slow enough that the breaking from the ground contact does not outweigh the additional force from our footstrike.   

Think about the forces after footstrike.  The vertical component of the velocity obviously starts positive gets reduced to zero by gravity at your highest point and then pulls you back down to earth.  During this time you reset your legs and cycle through to provide another footstrike.  What happens to the horizontal component?  Not much.  Yes their is some non-insignificant air resistance slowing you down; but it's still not that much.  So assume you push off with an initial velocity of 10 m/s in the horizontal direction and 2 m/s in the horizontal direction.  So, you go up and the air and reset your legs and quickly and now you are at around 0 m/s vertically and beginning to fall to the track and at 9.9 m/s in the horizontal direction.....

Consider two options:

1) Quickly get your foot down as fast as possible.   You get a fatiguing muscle down to the track quicker in what may be a non-optimal position.  You were able to create 10 m/s on your last foot strike but your body is fatiguing with each stride so now you get the foot down and create only 9.5 m/s horizontal velocity which actually slows you down relative to how fast you were traveling forward.   

2) You wait till your body has traveled a bit more by not getting your foot to the ground as quickly...  This allows you to continue to travel at 9.9 m/s forward for longer before footstrike, it allows you to make fewer footstrikes which may be less fatiguing BUT since you are not getting the foot with as much speed down you can't apply as much force off the track (sprinting is after all elastic) and now your next footstrike also produces less force.

Both of these options have their drawbacks clearly.   This is why maximum velocity mechanics are so touchy.  It's a fine line between cutting your stride and over-striding/waiting.   This is why knee lift is so important at high speeds.  You need to give your body time to travel forward with all that horizontal force you created.  After you get up to a decent speed each horizontal force you create will be weaker and weaker; thus you gotta let your body use the force you created and travel forward for some time before you apply the new weaker force.... However, if you just accelerate your footdown slowly or reach forward now the next force will be even weaker.  That's why you lift your knee and dorsiflex your foot during the flight phase; what this does is not "waste" the flight time but instead get your foot far away from the track so that you can allow the flight phase to take place but still accelerate the foot down to the track with as much speed as possible.   Essentially since when you are going really fast you want to give yourself time to fly you want to "wait" in the optimal position which is a position where when the time comes you can accelerate that foot as fast as possible downward.  That position requires the knee to be lifted and foot flexed and ready.

Despite all this I wouldn't become a high knee runner just yet.  But I would do two things.   Add dynamic hip lifting work in your training (ie. clap under your knees on a high knee warmup).   And actively notice your knee lift during your tempo work at about 90%.   Getting them more flexible and getting the feel of the float from knee lift will be enough.   Trying to run at maxV with high knees will probably just confuse you.   You look MILES better than that shitty start video in spikes; so keep improving.

The best are sometimes the worst to watch; but if you take a look at this video you will see the "waiting" taking place.  At each stride bolt gets good knee lift and gets his foot ready in the optimal position; then he "waits" and allows his body to travel forward instead of cutting his stride; when his COM is almost over the foot and accelerates in rapidly down to the track and makes another horizontal force.  He COULD clearly get his foot to the track faster; that's not the only goal:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QrlPmK4B94" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QrlPmK4B94</a>
 

Raptor

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Re: One of my recents sprints
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2013, 05:21:40 pm »
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Bolt looks to be in a bit of anterior pelvic tilt in that video... he's always been in APT... remember his "power clean" video?

But yeah... maybe if I'd have better hip flexibility to get the knee higher easily (without "trying") then maybe my mechanics would look different.

But at this point I just automatically put my foot down wherever the body feels like "doing so". I think at my level of strength that's what you get.

It's also kind of confusing how sprinters with good acceleration also seem to move their feet/legs at the start to the sides so to speak. So they don't really step in line with their body but behind and a bit on the side so their feet combined with their body look like a "V" for the first 10-20 meters. Then they start to step in-line and straight ahead...

You can see me do that in the video in the first post in this thread... I was like "let me try it" and... it's strange. Maybe they want to finish on the big toe or something in the acceleration phase?

By the way - thanks for the effort of writing that much, I really appreciate it.

ChrisM

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Re: One of my recents sprints
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2013, 05:25:39 pm »
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The "v" thing may be due to quad dominance at the start? I know it feels more natural that way for me and I'm pretty sure I'm quad dominant. It seems to let me push off much easier.

BTW, Toddday, amazing writeup!
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Re: One of my recents sprints
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2013, 09:02:03 pm »
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Well the video is really only close enough to see the last 5 meters and your deceleration.   Get a video from the side angle rather than 3 quarter angle because we can't see much here.  It does look much better than the sprints on a tennis court you posted awhile back where you chopped your legs and hardly moved.  So improvement for sure.

You could have accelerated a bit longer as you didn't have to raise your head up that early, just my 2 cents.

What does acceleration have to do with having your head down?  This is one of the more frustrating things;  to go to a race and see a bunch of high school kids running with there head down for half the race because the coach read some drive phase head down mechanics BS. 
Your acceleration comes from your body angle not from where your head is.  Head down is just a cue, often it's a poor habit developed by athletes who practice a bunch of stride patterning.  Myself, I semi-pattern to about 10m so I'll sometimes catch myself looking at the ground till about there... 

Anyway, rant off.   Main point is if you aren't running 10.xx you don't need to be in drive phase for much of the race; keeping your head down cause you see the pros do it will only limit your performance.  Get to the passing zone (10m) in about 7 strides and practice falling starts or sled drags and acceleration will come naturally....  As you keep going you will get tall, if this happens at 12 meters so be it;  sure maybe you get vertical before others and you also don't accelerate as long.... Yes, if you could continue to accelerate you would get to a faster speed and that's great... But the solution is not to say "I'm gonna keep my head down for longer".  That will make you run slower.   Also, you can keep accelerating when you are somewhat vertical if your elastic enough; just keep your knee lift and heel recovery low and you can accelerate at high speeds if you are elastic enough.

Ben Johnson's head goes up after step 2.  Does that mean he isn't accelerating?


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoBGibav--A" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoBGibav--A</a>

One thing I never really understood is why sprinters wear a solid amount of jewelry during competition?  Is it a good luck thing, or for looks, because it would seem kind of annoying and might even weigh you down a bit.
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