Author Topic: Another Mass Shooting in the US  (Read 14580 times)

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Raptor

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Re: Another Mass Shooting in the US
« Reply #180 on: July 14, 2016, 02:29:45 pm »
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So if someone points the gun at a cop (let's say we know he's a murderer) but doesn't shoot, the cop is legally bound not to shoot?

T0ddday

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Re: Another Mass Shooting in the US
« Reply #181 on: July 14, 2016, 04:57:42 pm »
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So if someone points the gun at a cop (let's say we know he's a murderer) but doesn't shoot, the cop is legally bound not to shoot?

Your asking about the model that I'm describing?  Yes. 

Although, I'm not arguing that the cop has to be shot at before he shoots - just that the other person has to be the "shoot first".  So if the murderer is shooting at other people and the cop comes then obviously the cop can shoot.  Or even if the murderer is murdering other people with his knife and the cop comes then the same rule would apply. 

Now, obviously I haven't thought this out but you could make the argument that being a known wanted murderer is aggression that can be carried over for multiple days or until your caught obviously.  Though, I would find it troublesome if cops shoot people who they think resemble murderers (i.e. Black people).

What I am moreso referring to is a realistic situation.  I mean people don't walk up to cops on the street and pull guns.  In America if you want to kill a cop you can - you see them on the street and in public places and guns are legal here so you could conceivably get a gun and shoot a cop.  Nothing is stopping you as we saw in Dallas. 

I'm referring to the situation where a cop pulls over a car or is called to a situation.  Here it's hardly ever one cop but almost always two or three.  In this situation yes I think even if someone pulls a gun the cops should try to take the person down with non lethal force.  There are two of them after all.  Tazers, tackling, etc. 

Will a few cops die?  Yes.  But this is the ultimate sacrifice.  This is what cops should be prepared for.  IMO when we talk about loss of life and how tragic it is we have the following heiarchy:

A > B >C

Innocent people > cops/military/etc > violent criminals

Since cops can't seem to stop killing A a shift to B is appropriate.  Especially in this country with enough people afraid of cops does having your hand on your gun mean you are afraid of the cop murdering you and protecting yourself or that you are trying to kill the cop?

I feel like cops are too protected.  Like there is an attitude that a cops life is better than an innocent persons and I feel this is backward... You hear cops with the attitude that "yeah the guy probably didn't have a gun but he reached for his waistband and with a cops life on the line you can't be too safe so we blew him away".  This is wrong.  The cop signed up for and should take the risk...

*** obviously I haven't thought this through so if my policy was amended to a suspect must pull out a weapon and point it at the cop before he can shoot... That would be progress... The current standard is when the cop "feels his life is in danger" or "when he is afraid".  Well guess what... Cops are afraid of black people!  So this just guarentees disproportionate killing of innocents.

acole14

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Re: Another Mass Shooting in the US
« Reply #182 on: July 15, 2016, 12:28:40 am »
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I don't mind the basis of that idea, as a devil's advocate I would argue that it could create many issues, for example, increased danger pay for cops, less people wanting to become cops, even more 'grey area' about rules on opening fire on suspects etc.

Raptor

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T0ddday

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Re: Another Mass Shooting in the US
« Reply #184 on: July 15, 2016, 05:14:37 am »
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I don't mind the basis of that idea, as a devil's advocate I would argue that it could create many issues, for example, increased danger pay for cops, less people wanting to become cops, even more 'grey area' about rules on opening fire on suspects etc.

What's more grey than the current rule of opening fire when "you feel like your in danger."  Don't shoot until your shot at is not grey.

Frankly, people who don't want to become cops because they are afraid to make a sacrifice for society shouldn't become cops.  Danger pay?  Yeah cops should make more.  It should be an honorable profession for upstanding people.  The cops that handcuffed me were the dumbest and scariest group of people I have been around in awhile, these people were afraid to even let me have my phone... Something must change...

Raptor

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Re: Another Mass Shooting in the US
« Reply #185 on: July 15, 2016, 05:33:54 am »
+1
So if someone points the gun at a cop (let's say we know he's a murderer) but doesn't shoot, the cop is legally bound not to shoot?

Your asking about the model that I'm describing?  Yes. 

Although, I'm not arguing that the cop has to be shot at before he shoots - just that the other person has to be the "shoot first".  So if the murderer is shooting at other people and the cop comes then obviously the cop can shoot.  Or even if the murderer is murdering other people with his knife and the cop comes then the same rule would apply. 

Now, obviously I haven't thought this out but you could make the argument that being a known wanted murderer is aggression that can be carried over for multiple days or until your caught obviously.  Though, I would find it troublesome if cops shoot people who they think resemble murderers (i.e. Black people).

What I am moreso referring to is a realistic situation.  I mean people don't walk up to cops on the street and pull guns.  In America if you want to kill a cop you can - you see them on the street and in public places and guns are legal here so you could conceivably get a gun and shoot a cop.  Nothing is stopping you as we saw in Dallas. 

I'm referring to the situation where a cop pulls over a car or is called to a situation.  Here it's hardly ever one cop but almost always two or three.  In this situation yes I think even if someone pulls a gun the cops should try to take the person down with non lethal force.  There are two of them after all.  Tazers, tackling, etc. 

Will a few cops die?  Yes.  But this is the ultimate sacrifice.  This is what cops should be prepared for.  IMO when we talk about loss of life and how tragic it is we have the following heiarchy:

A > B >C

Innocent people > cops/military/etc > violent criminals

Since cops can't seem to stop killing A a shift to B is appropriate.  Especially in this country with enough people afraid of cops does having your hand on your gun mean you are afraid of the cop murdering you and protecting yourself or that you are trying to kill the cop?

I feel like cops are too protected.  Like there is an attitude that a cops life is better than an innocent persons and I feel this is backward... You hear cops with the attitude that "yeah the guy probably didn't have a gun but he reached for his waistband and with a cops life on the line you can't be too safe so we blew him away".  This is wrong.  The cop signed up for and should take the risk...

*** obviously I haven't thought this through so if my policy was amended to a suspect must pull out a weapon and point it at the cop before he can shoot... That would be progress... The current standard is when the cop "feels his life is in danger" or "when he is afraid".  Well guess what... Cops are afraid of black people!  So this just guarentees disproportionate killing of innocents.

I'm absolutely with you on this one. In fact, this is somewhat true for white people. They can walk with their assault weapons out or even make a mockery with the cops about their 2nd amendment right, point the guns at the cops (Cliven Bundy story), and they won't get shot. All a black needs to do is LOOK like he's reaching for a gun and he gets shot.

acole14

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Re: Another Mass Shooting in the US
« Reply #186 on: July 15, 2016, 10:55:15 pm »
+1
I don't mind the basis of that idea, as a devil's advocate I would argue that it could create many issues, for example, increased danger pay for cops, less people wanting to become cops, even more 'grey area' about rules on opening fire on suspects etc.

What's more grey than the current rule of opening fire when "you feel like your in danger."  Don't shoot until your shot at is not grey.

Frankly, people who don't want to become cops because they are afraid to make a sacrifice for society shouldn't become cops.  Danger pay?  Yeah cops should make more.  It should be an honorable profession for upstanding people.  The cops that handcuffed me were the dumbest and scariest group of people I have been around in awhile, these people were afraid to even let me have my phone... Something must change...

I like the idea. Don't get me wrong, but unless I'm mistaken, you describe in your post where there could be at least a bit of grey area in regards to don't shoot until you're shot at/shots fired. I like your post-script idea better where police can't legally shoot until a gun is drawn with intent, not as dangerous for the cop and still progress from this ridiculous arcade shoot-em-up, hit anything that moves situation. I strongly agree with your general principle that these incidents have to stop, especially if it's racially motivated. I think the solution won't be new police procedure but deep societal changes - better gun control so cops aren't paranoid that everyone is packing would help too.

Also, where the hell are phasers at? Why does the primary method of immobilising a dangerous suspect have to be lethal in most cases as well?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 10:57:51 pm by acole14 »

Mutumbo000

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Re: Another Mass Shooting in the US
« Reply #187 on: July 18, 2016, 02:01:09 am »
0
An ex-marine has recently shot dead 3 cops in Baton Rouge.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-18/multiple-police-shot-dead-in-baton-rouge/7636690

The NRA have been silent as usual. Testing times in the US atm :(
"IMO, It didn't happen if it's not on vid/official"- adarqui

It's easier to keep up than it is to catch up...

Raptor

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Re: Another Mass Shooting in the US
« Reply #188 on: July 18, 2016, 03:08:04 am »
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http://edition.cnn.com/2016/07/17/politics/cleveland-police-baton-rouge-security-open-carry/index.html

Quote
"We are sending a letter to Gov. Kasich requesting assistance from him. He could very easily do some kind of executive order or something -- I don't care if it's constitutional or not at this point" Stephen Loomis, president of Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association, told CNN.

 :goodjobbro:

Raptor

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Re: Another Mass Shooting in the US
« Reply #189 on: July 18, 2016, 03:29:25 am »
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Watch the series of videos here:

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/07/17/us/baton-route-police-shooting/index.html

Some pretty emotional ones.

Mutumbo000

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Re: Another Mass Shooting in the US
« Reply #190 on: July 18, 2016, 05:07:48 am »
0
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/07/17/politics/cleveland-police-baton-rouge-security-open-carry/index.html

Quote
"We are sending a letter to Gov. Kasich requesting assistance from him. He could very easily do some kind of executive order or something -- I don't care if it's constitutional or not at this point" Stephen Loomis, president of Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association, told CNN.

 :goodjobbro:

You mean common sense is starting to finally prevail :P
"IMO, It didn't happen if it's not on vid/official"- adarqui

It's easier to keep up than it is to catch up...

Raptor

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Re: Another Mass Shooting in the US
« Reply #191 on: July 18, 2016, 05:09:56 am »
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I was actually being sarcastic, you can't take exceptions from the Constitution, especially as a representative of the police.

adarqui

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Re: Another Mass Shooting in the US
« Reply #192 on: July 18, 2016, 05:52:28 am »
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An ex-marine has recently shot dead 3 cops in Baton Rouge.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-18/multiple-police-shot-dead-in-baton-rouge/7636690

The NRA have been silent as usual. Testing times in the US atm :(

pretty "bad timing" too, considering the republican convention is this week, starting tomorrow. I mean copycats get very motivated after events like this, and now you have "the biggest" event this week, with thousands of cops and people.. and people openly carrying all kinds of firearms. I dno, just seems like a very bad concoction.

T0ddday

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Re: Another Mass Shooting in the US
« Reply #193 on: July 18, 2016, 07:55:27 am »
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I was actually being sarcastic, you can't take exceptions from the Constitution, especially as a representative of the police.

Why not? 

Surprised to hear you say this given your not American.  One of the most annoying thing about Americans is there supposed reverence for the constitution...  Truthfully we take exceptions from the constitution all the time - I mean the Supreme Court is responsible for things like Brown vs the board, which any constitutional scholar will tell you has nothing to do with an interpretation of the constitution but basically a radical Supreme Court making laws that fit with the pulse of society... That doesn't mean it's bad... It just means it's a lie that the Supreme Courts job is to interpret the constitution!

Seriously the constitution is a piece of paper written by a bunch of slaveholders...  It's a joke that it slows us down so much...

We could easily interpret the second amendment to be that state militias are state police forces and they have the right to bear arms...

Raptor

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Re: Another Mass Shooting in the US
« Reply #194 on: July 18, 2016, 08:09:53 am »
+1
You can't make a mockery out of the Constitution whenever it fits your needs, you can't interpret it all the time. Such an act must be very precise. If it's not, steps must be taken to revise it/adapt it. But until that happens, to say that it is acceptable to take exceptions is wrong. You can set the circumstances of the breaking, if anything (aggravating or lessening circumstances), but if you want to have a state of law, you can't mess around with the constitutional rights or else the Constitution is useless, it's just a "convention" that can or can not be followed.