Author Topic: Another police shooting  (Read 3500 times)

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mattyg35

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Re: Another police shooting
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2016, 08:34:40 pm »
0
http://www.vox.com/2016/8/5/12388528/paul-o-neal-chicago-police-shooting-video

also .. to all of the people who shit on BLM:

https://theintercept.com/2016/08/03/black-lives-matter-answers-the-question-what-are-your-demands/

https://policy.m4bl.org/

their platform.. maybe now people can start to separate the BLM movement from a small percentage of people who "misuse" the movement.

And maybe now people can start to separate the good cops from a small percentage of people who "misuse" their badge.

Anyway, their demands are pretty fucking stupid.

Reparations?? Political power (plenty of examples of administrations that are signfiicantly black, eg Baltimore, mayors? What is economic justice, more affirmative action nonsense? Which war on black people, we all know the stats of black-on-black murder as well as the lies about who is killed more by the police? Invest-divest, is there significant differences in public school funding of schools and programs in different areas? What does Community Control mean?
The problems in the black community could all be fixed if they moved past the shittier aspects of habits that have become ingrained in their 'culture' it, but that will never happen as it would require self-reflection and an admission of the shortcomings of their community and culture.



adarqui

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Re: Another police shooting
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2016, 09:15:18 pm »
0
http://www.vox.com/2016/8/5/12388528/paul-o-neal-chicago-police-shooting-video

also .. to all of the people who shit on BLM:

https://theintercept.com/2016/08/03/black-lives-matter-answers-the-question-what-are-your-demands/

https://policy.m4bl.org/

their platform.. maybe now people can start to separate the BLM movement from a small percentage of people who "misuse" the movement.

And maybe now people can start to separate the good cops from a small percentage of people who "misuse" their badge.

Well obviously. But when unarmed people are being killed by police, sorry if the ones who are sworn to "protect and serve" aren't held to a higher standard. When entire police departments are found to be corrupt or rife with racism, don't expect people's trust of the police to increase. When cop after cop skates after killing someone unarmed, or brutalizing someone, sorry if people's trust in police goes beyond that one officer, and instead extends to everyone involved in protecting him/her. When cops don't come out and protest against people who hide behind the badge, and in fact face punishment and being shunned by those hiding behind the badge, don't expect people to have much trust in police.

http://www.policemisconduct.net/statistics/2010-annual-report/

Those statistics prove by far most cops are good.

Maybe we need a "pro police thread".



Quote
Anyway, their demands are pretty fucking stupid.

Reparations?? Political power (plenty of examples of administrations that are signfiicantly black, eg Baltimore, mayors? What is economic justice, more affirmative action nonsense? Which war on black people, we all know the stats of black-on-black murder as well as the lies about who is killed more by the police? Invest-divest, is there significant differences in public school funding of schools and programs in different areas? What does Community Control mean?
The problems in the black community could all be fixed if they moved past the shittier aspects of habits that have become ingrained in their 'culture' it, but that will never happen as it would require self-reflection and an admission of the shortcomings of their community and culture.



I was expecting you to hit back asap on reparations .. wish I could have bet some money on it. lmao.

What's your beef with reparations? I honestly have no opinion on the issue. That isn't my fight. All I know is that promises were made, somewhat delivered, and taken away.

mattyg35

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Re: Another police shooting
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2016, 10:13:01 pm »
+1

Well obviously. But when unarmed people are being killed by police, sorry if the ones who are sworn to "protect and serve" aren't held to a higher standard. When entire police departments are found to be corrupt or rife with racism, don't expect people's trust of the police to increase. When cop after cop skates after killing someone unarmed, or brutalizing someone, sorry if people's trust in police goes beyond that one officer, and instead extends to everyone involved in protecting him/her. When cops don't come out and protest against people who hide behind the badge, and in fact face punishment and being shunned by those hiding behind the badge, don't expect people to have much trust in police.

Them skating pisses me off as well. The lack of liability, accountability, repercussions in every government job is basically zero. No one is ever held responsible. It's easy to see with the police when you have footage of a police officer shooting someone in cold blood, but some/many(?) of the recent situations, eg Trayvon, Michael Brown, ], Mario Woods, Sterling, were found not guilty based on the evidence available. BLM seems like they're unhappy when things don't go their way. Garner, Castile was bullshit and someone should be in jail.

If you watch some videos of justified police shootings, I think you can understand how on edge some of these guys must be, not saying that makes it okay, maybe some need to find a new job, but I wouldn't want to be a cop in a poor neighbourhood in 2016.
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Quote
I was expecting you to hit back asap on reparations .. wish I could have bet some money on it. lmao.

What's your beef with reparations? I honestly have no opinion on the issue. That isn't my fight. All I know is that promises were made, somewhat delivered, and taken away.

1. IMO, it's not relevant in this day and age. If we're going to go back to historical wrongs, why stop at slavery? Therefore, when does that end? If all parties involved are still alive, then by all means take it to court, but if people want to dig up graves and sue people that didn't have anything to do with, it's going to spiral out of control.

2. It severely hinders race relations, which really shouldn't be as big of an issue in this day and age, but apparently it is.

While you may have no beef with reparations, reparation will have beef with you, if you want to let people politicize and sue people for events that they didn't have anything to do with. If reparations were to go forward, I think ultimately the problem will be that certain individuals, groups, or businesses that were responsible, won't be held accountable, it will just be some mass payout from the government to those "injured" parties, just like the bank bailout, if you know what I mean.

undoubtable

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Re: Another police shooting
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2016, 11:12:35 pm »
+2
http://www.vox.com/2016/8/5/12388528/paul-o-neal-chicago-police-shooting-video

also .. to all of the people who shit on BLM:

https://theintercept.com/2016/08/03/black-lives-matter-answers-the-question-what-are-your-demands/

https://policy.m4bl.org/

their platform.. maybe now people can start to separate the BLM movement from a small percentage of people who "misuse" the movement.
The problems in the black community could all be fixed if they moved past the shittier aspects of habits that have become ingrained in their 'culture' it, but that will never happen as it would require self-reflection and an admission of the shortcomings of their community and culture.

Why do you say "their" culture with respect to black communities in America? I would actually consider it "American" culture and use the word "our" culture because it makes more sense. If you think of black slaves coming over and being stripped of their identity, being sold as property, earning their freedom, and their current road toward equality, I see that as part of American culture and history no? Tell me if I'm wrong but any part of their culture that was African was lost (taken) upon arrival so everything that you see in black communities should be considered almost entirely American right?

When you think of US basketball or other blacks earning Olympic medals is it not American medals they earn? You can't pick and chose what parts are American and what parts aren't. So when you think of black on black crime or poverty in black communities why is it "their" problem and not "our" problem as Americans?

Essentially, I'm asking these questions to try and understand why you (and plenty of Americans) think improvement in black communities is entirely "their" problem and they need to resolve it on their own. From my understanding of history, "black culture" is one of the most American things there is so wouldn't it be logical to think of black issues as American issues that the entire nation has to work on resolving?

Its important to clarify that debate before we talk about possible solutions.
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adarqui

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Re: Another police shooting
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2016, 01:29:52 am »
0
The problems in the black community could all be fixed if they moved past the shittier aspects of habits that have become ingrained in their 'culture' it, but that will never happen as it would require self-reflection and an admission of the shortcomings of their community and culture.

^^ damn this paragraph is nuts.. HEH!!!

that also implies that the black community is incapable of self-reflection? wtf?

what about the problems in the white community? all of these politicians are white and they love using the drug war to lock up black people, killing brown people overseas, and destroying the middle class. I'd honestly like them to address their shortcomings (which have far reaching impact) before "blacks" do. :trollface: but-not-trollface

anyway I agree with undoubtable. The US is failing alot of people. These are US problems.



http://www.vox.com/2016/8/5/12388528/paul-o-neal-chicago-police-shooting-video

also .. to all of the people who shit on BLM:

https://theintercept.com/2016/08/03/black-lives-matter-answers-the-question-what-are-your-demands/

https://policy.m4bl.org/

their platform.. maybe now people can start to separate the BLM movement from a small percentage of people who "misuse" the movement.
The problems in the black community could all be fixed if they moved past the shittier aspects of habits that have become ingrained in their 'culture' it, but that will never happen as it would require self-reflection and an admission of the shortcomings of their community and culture.

Why do you say "their" culture with respect to black communities in America? I would actually consider it "American" culture and use the word "our" culture because it makes more sense. If you think of black slaves coming over and being stripped of their identity, being sold as property, earning their freedom, and their current road toward equality, I see that as part of American culture and history no? Tell me if I'm wrong but any part of their culture that was African was lost (taken) upon arrival so everything that you see in black communities should be considered almost entirely American right?

When you think of US basketball or other blacks earning Olympic medals is it not American medals they earn? You can't pick and chose what parts are American and what parts aren't. So when you think of black on black crime or poverty in black communities why is it "their" problem and not "our" problem as Americans?

Essentially, I'm asking these questions to try and understand why you (and plenty of Americans) think improvement in black communities is entirely "their" problem and they need to resolve it on their own. From my understanding of history, "black culture" is one of the most American things there is so wouldn't it be logical to think of black issues as American issues that the entire nation has to work on resolving?

Its important to clarify that debate before we talk about possible solutions.


solid. well said.

LBSS

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Re: Another police shooting
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2016, 08:19:55 am »
+1
oh cool it's finally in writing that matty is an out-and-out unapologetic racist. makes sense.
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mattyg35

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Re: Another police shooting
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2016, 10:28:25 am »
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re: undoubtable

Ok, if you want to reword it to being American culture, but that doesn't address the fact that growing up in the communities that many blacks do results in severe negative outcomes, you can look up crime statistics, education statistics, health statistics and any other metrics you consider relevant. It's very clear that something is wrong in those communities. It's not exclusive to being black, but many black people grow up with the conditions that result in the outcomes we see.

Don't strawman me with basketball and other anecdotes as I didn't bring those up, and never said they weren't American. Pretty much a perfect example of a strawman argument, you're better than that.

Regarding your "Essentially..." paragraph. I'm not American btw.
Who gets to fix these problems? Government? Community members? Who pays for it? Who puts in the necessary work?
Black youth need more upstanding mentors to prevent them from sliding into the ways that result in the negative outcomes that are prevalent in many of their communities. Many of the issues of crime, education, health, etc, aren't seen in other communities, it is related to poverty, and for some reason there seems to have been a cycle created in the black community where it's harder for them to socially mobilize themselves. So my question to you is, is this an American thing, eg are these same poor outcomes seen across all American communities? Go dig up some data for us, maybe I'm wrong, but afaik, being born black comes with the string attached that you're more likely to be murdered. That's fucked up.
This came up in search for 'black murder rates research'
http://crimeresearch.org/2014/10/inflammatory-and-misleading-claims-about-black-teens-being-vastly-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-whites-even-after-adjusting-for-crime-rates/

But yeah, saying that it's black doesn't mean they're not American, I'm not sure why you thought that other than wanting to demonize me, ignore what I've said, or just to be outraged. If these trends are seen across all races in the US, then by all means say it's American, but then it becomes an issue of proportionality, eg is it a bigger problem in some communities than others. Hope that's clear. Let me know if it isn't.

re: Adarq

Self-reflection is important, as I've said repeatedly now, when you look at relevant metrics, it's clear that something is wrong in those communities. Many outspoken members of those communities seem to see the source of the problem as being external instead of internal, which to me indicates a lack of self-reflection, eg what are we doing wrong? how are we failing our community/children?

Afaik, this thread isn't about white police shootings and problems in the white community, so not sure why you brought that up except to race bait things.

Regarding your drug war comment, I don't like the marijuana laws as they stand, I'm glad my country is a lot better in that respect. You guys have a lot of room to improve in that respect. Although from personal experience, I do think there are negative side effects of marijuana use that begins at a young age, eg when your brain isn't done developing, effects on short-term memory, etc.

Anyway, I don't see these views as being racist as I never attributed it to being black and referred to their communities and culture. The negative outcomes that are prevalent in the black community aren't nature but nurture, if you're familiar with that saying. But yeah, if you want, just write it off as being racist, ignore the problems, it won't change the fact that there are severe problems in many black communities. If you want to bring up other communities, then go find some data and we can compare metrics, and see what conclusions are available.

undoubtable

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Re: Another police shooting
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2016, 01:14:13 pm »
+1
re: undoubtable

Ok, if you want to reword it to being American culture, but that doesn't address the fact that growing up in the communities that many blacks do results in severe negative outcomes, you can look up crime statistics, education statistics, health statistics and any other metrics you consider relevant. It's very clear that something is wrong in those communities. It's not exclusive to being black, but many black people grow up with the conditions that result in the outcomes we see.

Don't strawman me with basketball and other anecdotes as I didn't bring those up, and never said they weren't American. Pretty much a perfect example of a strawman argument, you're better than that.

Regarding your "Essentially..." paragraph. I'm not American btw.
Who gets to fix these problems? Government? Community members? Who pays for it? Who puts in the necessary work?
Black youth need more upstanding mentors to prevent them from sliding into the ways that result in the negative outcomes that are prevalent in many of their communities. Many of the issues of crime, education, health, etc, aren't seen in other communities, it is related to poverty, and for some reason there seems to have been a cycle created in the black community where it's harder for them to socially mobilize themselves. So my question to you is, is this an American thing, eg are these same poor outcomes seen across all American communities? Go dig up some data for us, maybe I'm wrong, but afaik, being born black comes with the string attached that you're more likely to be murdered. That's fucked up.
This came up in search for 'black murder rates research'
http://crimeresearch.org/2014/10/inflammatory-and-misleading-claims-about-black-teens-being-vastly-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-whites-even-after-adjusting-for-crime-rates/

But yeah, saying that it's black doesn't mean they're not American, I'm not sure why you thought that other than wanting to demonize me, ignore what I've said, or just to be outraged. If these trends are seen across all races in the US, then by all means say it's American, but then it becomes an issue of proportionality, eg is it a bigger problem in some communities than others. Hope that's clear. Let me know if it isn't.

Matty, your statement about black culture reflects a view that many in the US unfortunately share which I then tried to break down as flawed because you're not seeing the entire picture. Were you not trying to say that crime, poverty, less than ideal education in black communities are black issues and those communities have to look within themselves to solve their own issues? I can't tell you how many times I've heard white Americans say they disapprove of welfare because it goes to lazy n*****rs that don't want to work but keep popping up babies or that the issue with black communities is that black dads don't stay around to father their kids etc.. Basically, they say that these are black problems and do not affect other communities and that black people have to resolve on their own. Or how many times have I seen arguments that America's high murder rates cannot be compared to those of other countries because of large minority communities that basically murder one another. Does this not seem to you like they are dividing America based on race and do your comments not seem to be doing the same?

You brought up statistics in black communities and I'm not trying to refute that. I brought up black history in the US so you don't compare black communities with other immigrant communities whose histories do not match in the least bit. So say you raise a child and tell him from early age that he's shit, he's just property with no rights then release him into the world when he's 20yo and say okay now you're free go about and make something of yourself, do you think he'll fare just the same as other 20yos? It's absurd that in less that 150 years removed from type of environment, followed by years racism and inequality, you expect black communities to fare no different from other communities. We should expect progress and there has been plenty, plenty of black people becoming successful and raising their children with equal expectation but it can't all happen at once and without support.

To the question of fixing these inequalities, its an American issue and all Americans are responsible. I believe in incentives, why not give young black children raised in poor families incentives like earn a 3.0gpa in HS and you have free university. Then they can become the role models that you say are missing with the proper expectations placed on them. Yes, we're not the same generation that caused these issues and many (like myself) have immigrated more recently but you inherit the issues present in the country along with opportunity. This is the reason I made the connection with black communities being apart of American culture when you tried to divide it and make it a black issue.
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T0ddday

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Re: Another police shooting
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2016, 03:25:09 pm »
+1
re: undoubtable

Ok, if you want to reword it to being American culture, but that doesn't address the fact that growing up in the communities that many blacks do results in severe negative outcomes, you can look up crime statistics, education statistics, health statistics and any other metrics you consider relevant. It's very clear that something is wrong in those communities. It's not exclusive to being black, but many black people grow up with the conditions that result in the outcomes we see.

Don't strawman me with basketball and other anecdotes as I didn't bring those up, and never said they weren't American. Pretty much a perfect example of a strawman argument, you're better than that.

Regarding your "Essentially..." paragraph. I'm not American btw.
Who gets to fix these problems? Government? Community members? Who pays for it? Who puts in the necessary work?
Black youth need more upstanding mentors to prevent them from sliding into the ways that result in the negative outcomes that are prevalent in many of their communities. Many of the issues of crime, education, health, etc, aren't seen in other communities, it is related to poverty, and for some reason there seems to have been a cycle created in the black community where it's harder for them to socially mobilize themselves. So my question to you is, is this an American thing, eg are these same poor outcomes seen across all American communities? Go dig up some data for us, maybe I'm wrong, but afaik, being born black comes with the string attached that you're more likely to be murdered. That's fucked up.
This came up in search for 'black murder rates research'
http://crimeresearch.org/2014/10/inflammatory-and-misleading-claims-about-black-teens-being-vastly-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-police-than-whites-even-after-adjusting-for-crime-rates/

But yeah, saying that it's black doesn't mean they're not American, I'm not sure why you thought that other than wanting to demonize me, ignore what I've said, or just to be outraged. If these trends are seen across all races in the US, then by all means say it's American, but then it becomes an issue of proportionality, eg is it a bigger problem in some communities than others. Hope that's clear. Let me know if it isn't.

Matty, your statement about black culture reflects a view that many in the US unfortunately share which I then tried to break down as flawed because you're not seeing the entire picture. Were you not trying to say that crime, poverty, less than ideal education in black communities are black issues and those communities have to look within themselves to solve their own issues? I can't tell you how many times I've heard white Americans say they disapprove of welfare because it goes to lazy n*****rs that don't want to work but keep popping up babies or that the issue with black communities is that black dads don't stay around to father their kids etc.. Basically, they say that these are black problems and do not affect other communities and that black people have to resolve on their own. Or how many times have I seen arguments that America's high murder rates cannot be compared to those of other countries because of large minority communities that basically murder one another. Does this not seem to you like they are dividing America based on race and do your comments not seem to be doing the same?

You brought up statistics in black communities and I'm not trying to refute that. I brought up black history in the US so you don't compare black communities with other immigrant communities whose histories do not match in the least bit. So say you raise a child and tell him from early age that he's shit, he's just property with no rights then release him into the world when he's 20yo and say okay now you're free go about and make something of yourself, do you think he'll fare just the same as other 20yos? It's absurd that in less that 150 years removed from type of environment, followed by years racism and inequality, you expect black communities to fare no different from other communities. We should expect progress and there has been plenty, plenty of black people becoming successful and raising their children with equal expectation but it can't all happen at once and without support.

To the question of fixing these inequalities, its an American issue and all Americans are responsible. I believe in incentives, why not give young black children raised in poor families incentives like earn a 3.0gpa in HS and you have free university. Then they can become the role models that you say are missing with the proper expectations placed on them. Yes, we're not the same generation that caused these issues and many (like myself) have immigrated more recently but you inherit the issues present in the country along with opportunity. This is the reason I made the connection with black communities being apart of American culture when you tried to divide it and make it a black issue.

I had been meaning to respond to this...

A really concientious post by undoubtable but also I think just indicative of how hard it is for white people to understand the difficulty of coming up with solutions that are really for the both the black and white community... I mean I'm mixed both black and white and I don't claim to have solutions either...   A few things I feel like white people should be aware of when they make comments about reparative solutions...

So you tell a black student that if he gets a certain GPA his school is free on account of his blackness?  How do you think that makes him feel about his self worth... This is counter to the whole idea expressed in brown vs board.  I got the top fellowship possible in grad school (tbh I probably got it cause I made a great impression on someone - but not cause of race) and when I was in school I had to constantly deal with people telling me all the advantages I had as a minority... The implicit message was "you aren't as smart - your only here cause of the color of your skin."

Second - the black community is not monolithic.  You would be surprised how many black people believe in parts of MattYGs points.  Black lives matter is an incredibly devisive group.  Everybody thinks black lives matter but a lot of people do not support the group BLM.  The group is headed by three women - two of which identify as transgender or queer.  I don't want to get into a debate about LGBT issues but I can tell you in the church (which has long been a source of mobilization for black civil rights) BLM is not well received.  IMO most of the people who fully understand and endorse black lives matter are not actually members of the black community!

Finally... Don't want to argue that being only 150 years removed from slavery isn't an issue... But I think that what undoubtable mentions as "years of racism and inequality" should be focused on more.  And most importantly we should focus on the exact policies that facilitate mattygs comments about the black community needing to fix itself...

This is I think the most important thing to be aware of...

That these black communities ridden with problems were created by white people!  Crime is highest in the Midwest - Cleveland, Chicago, etc.  Black Americans moved to the north during the great migration around 1910 and were able to make strides despite racism and inequality... However, they were repeatedly forced to be segregated by housing and schooling possibilities that made it impossible for them to live in neighborhoods of their choosing... One of the biggest opponents of forced segregation was George Romney (yeah mitts dad) and he was politically destroyed for being against segregation...  White flight, property tax laws,  and housing policies created these communities and none of these were created by the black community...  Suggesting that the solutions need to come from entirely within the community is a little shortsighted...  It's like throwing someone in a hole and telling them he needs self reflection to get out of the hole...

Here's my favorite statistics to illustrate how horrible segregation is in this country is the following... Blacks are a minority in the country.  Whites are the majority.  Because of efforts to desegregate white communities there are all white high schools in the US.   However there are many all black high schools (mostly in the Midwest).   Obviously from a statistical perspective this is extremely unlikely...  Basically we have fought white segregation and put minorities in every school - of course that isn't really the problem with segregation - that problem is far less all white schools than it is all black schools... Until we address this we really can't expect much...

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Re: Another police shooting
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2017, 07:03:50 pm »
0
horrible..

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-police-shooting-video-shocking-20160805-snap-story.html

don't care what anyone says, that cop firing into the car initially as it's driving away is an absolute travesty. horrible policing.

also the cops high fiving & shit afterwards is a bit annoying.

The media never tells the full side of the story and portrays things in certain ways. This shit happens almost every single day in Chicago where some guy goes crazy during pursuit and ends up killing 3 others in a crash. They're literally willing to go out like Scarface than getting caught. So given all these facts this is very standard.

Nobody ever goes car jacking without a gun in Chicago. It's almost a fact. The cops really can't play it any other way or else they're just going to get exploited/destroyed. It's a war between gangs and rival gangs, and the police.... hence the city is called Chiraq.

« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 07:05:38 pm by fast does lie »
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fast does lie

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Re: Another police shooting
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2017, 07:20:34 pm »
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mattg, adarq, undoubtable:

The media plays a big role in segregating America....
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