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Messages - Joe

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166
ooh i had forgotten about that table. gives me an equivalent of 19:07 for the last 5k race i did (dew point 70 = -5%), so i like it lol.

i definitely feel you about hills, a big climb in km 4 is what killed me going sub-20 in that race. mental strength is one way to think about it, but i think another way is self-knowledge: my lack of mental strength in that situation came from not being sure that i would have anything left in the tank for the last 4 minutes if i pushed a bit harder up the hill. as it happened, i finished less tired than i had in the parkrun i did a couple months prior. so next time i'll gun it a little harder up late climbs and see what happens. racing is a learning experience. that's one of the things that's fun/valuable about it.

ETA: magness even alludes to that in his video about kipyegon's sub-4 attempt today: fading in the third quarter is more common with inexperienced runners.

Oh yeah for sure. I guess meant mental game generally rather than just strength per se. For sure just need more racing/learning what it's meant to feel like when you're going the right level of hard.

167
28-06-25

Parkrun 5k -- 20:18 [3:57, 3:50, 4:12, 4:19, 3:55]

2k each w/u + c/d, then another 5k after coffee with pals, so 14k on the day.

Evening

inc Fly ->lighter fly -> inc press -> dip drop set

bb row -> pullover ->  lighter pullover-> chin drop set

Notes

This is a tougher course, so by the standard scatch score conversion, this is basically exact same time I ran last month (also 5 C higher dew point, very muggy today), so relatively happy. Not much time has elapsed and volume has increased a lot, so much more fatigue in my legs. Disappointed not to be faster, but realistically it was a good effort.

Also, mentally just not strong enough. HR in Ks 3 and 4 was lower than 2. This course features some big hills up and down and I just didn't have the mental strength to grind up and then use the down as well in those sections. Managed to turn it back on with some positive self talk in the final 5. But really think with a better mental game plan I could have gone sub 20.

Stopped 3 times during the longer warmdown jog to do 3x10 pogo jumps. Seems good for my foot pain to do what I can to improve/strengthen foot/ankle/calf function.

Oh, one plus: I confirmed I was indeed using chest strap HR for the 5k, so got an updted LTHR of 174, so feel like the 177 one from last 5k is pretty realistic given slight lack of max effort on this one. Tho 174 seems good to use as my benchmark for sessions given condition adjustments (temp, coffee, food etc) vs weekday sessions.

ETA: https://runnersconnect.net/dew-point-effect-running/ found this table. Went from the "slightly difficult" range for last run to the "very difficult" range for this one. Conservative conversion (1.03 vs 1.01) puts this at equivalent to ~19:55 in previous conditions + another 9 seconds from this course being 2.2 SSS vs 1.9 SSS (https://www.thepowerof10.info/content/itemdisplay.aspx?itemid=1706) puts this as 19:46 equivalent on previous conditions. Solid.

168
26-06-25

Run --
w/u
3 x (10' on / 1' off) [4:32 avg]
c/d

Total 10.22k, 54:40

27-06-25

Run -- 6.46k, 42:31

Notes

1k less running today counts as a taper right?

169
25-06-25

AM

Run -- 7.47k, 48:51

PM

Random upper lifting cba to log details

Notes

good run, though i think the chest strap had some sketchy moments

doing another parkrun 5k on saturday, cba to taper so will still do 3x10 tomorrow probably. intervals.icu tells me my fitness is now 45 compared to 40 last time, so maybe i'll pb. training paces haven't picked up that much tho and it's gonna be hot, so i suspect it'll be a grind.

170
not that much faster. but anyway i'm sure you're right about playing with the format.

yeah i think people over anchor on the 3x SubT + 3x Easy + 1 long run format as being the core, when really it's just "track load, don't do too much, but do more over time", and that format is what James settled on + works generally for most people

171
with warm up and cool down those workout days would be 10.5-11.5 km, medium days are already 10-11 and could gradually build up to 13-14 (that was the plan anyway) and long run could just keep building bit by bit toward 42 until the 50k at end of october. that would mean weekly mileage starting around 70kpw and going up to 100kpw, give or take. and do weights on one of the easy weekdays in addition to the saturday.

ultra people talk about the importance of back-to-back long days but i feel like if i build up to a full marathon long run before the 50k, race the 50k, and then taper down to the 50 miler, that should be plenty. finishing 50 miles just doesn't seem that daunting. and wouldn't getting up at 6 AM to do a 3x10 less than 24 hours after finishing a long run serve the same purpose, pretty much?

I suspect your workout days would be longer, mine are like 10-10.5k and you're faster than me.

Also, I imagine wouldn't really be straying too far from the core concept if you changed i up to 2 x sessions + back-to-back long runs for a special block for your ultra.

172
24-06-25

Run --
w/u
5 x (6' on / 1' off) [4:31, 4:28, 4:25, 4:26, 4:23]
c/d

Total -- 10.38k, 55:01

173
23-06-25

Run -- 7.7k, 50:50

Notes

HR - 127. Back to reality with 6.45 pre-coffee outdoor runs.

174
22-06-25

Run -- 16.00k, 1:38:23 [avg HR 132]

Seated Calf Raise --
45kg x a bunch
55kg x a bunch
45kg x a bunch

Notes

Nabbed the treadmill under the air con unit at the gym, so this was nice. Again really don't mind treadmill it seems, didn't get bored. Just lock into pace and listen to my thing and roll on. Was like 30 mins @ 6:19, 40 mins @ 6:00, 10 mins @ 5:43 which I decided was too fast (HR averaged 136 in that portion, didn't seem to be drifting, but it touched 140 which I didn't want), back to 6:00 for a while then last 2k at 6:40 to chill a bit. Tbh love having this much control over exactly how I'm running.

Counted breaths at various points and was always 20-22 per minute, even during the 5:43 portion.

On the one hand I believe that the seated calf raise is a trash-tier exercise (every study comparing seated vs standing shwos that both produce equivalent soleus gainz, but only standing trains the gastroc meaningfully), but on the other hand it is more fun to do for whatever reason. Could set up on the leg press machine for some calf raises but that's just takes too much time, whereas this is trivial to get going.

Over last couple weeks have been getting a little bit of arch pain here and there in my right foot. That's the side with the less mobile ankle/weaker calf, previous hip issue etc. So given that obvs my hips are not meaningfully weak (rdls, airplanes, etc), I guess calves must be the weak link, esp since that's more foot specific. So calf gym work can only be a good idea, esp since it's also a bomb way to stretch, since you can just hold the bottom position for 3s+ per rep, so across like 30 reps that's 90s of weighted intense stretching. Arguably this is a case where seated is better for me b/c straight leg ankle mobility is fine on both sides, but bent is poor on right side. Anyway, will try to do those after runs any time I use the gym. Can just do one of my classic drop or myo sets.

Oh 70k for the week  :personal-record: :personal-record: partly aided by doing long run in aircon/on treadmill, but avg pace for the week is basically same as always, i just somehow ran for 7 hours instead of the usual 6:30. Mostly a result of making an effort to keep all my weekday runs 50mins +, those 3-8 mins/day really add up. Not sure I can extend much past 70k/week without just getting faster.

ETA: other nice thing abt treadmill is it is easier to bring more liquids. Consumed like 1.2L during this which wd just be annoying outdoors.

ETA: also, evidence for my somewhat (played-up for effect) HR-sceptical stance. I was surely fresher yesterday than today, trained at about same time with same pre-workout nutrition, both on treadmill, etc etc. Today, HR never went above 140 and spent <1 min over 138, no HR drift, etec. Yesterday, I was 138 @ 6:19, 144 @ 6:00 and 147 @ 5:43. Exact same paces today were 128, 134, 136 avg. Used same HR strap. Now one confounder is using a different treadmill, maybe yesterday's had a faster belt. But still, interesting!

175
21-06-25

AM

Treadmill Run - 13.02k, 70 mins

Pace - RR - HR
7:04 - 22 - 131
6:40 - 20 - 133
6:19 - 19 - 138
6:00 - 19 - 144
5:43 - 21 - 147
5:27 - 22 - 148
5:13 - 23 - 151
5:00 - 26 - 155
4:48 - 29 - 158
4:37 - 30 - 162
4:26 - 32 - 165
4:17 - 38 - 170
4:08 - 44 - 174
6:40 - 24/21 - 145

Lift Upper

Lat Pulldown drop set into one arm lat pulldown drop set

Machine bench drop set

Machine dip drop set

Chest-supported row drop set

Machine OHP drop set

Notes

Did the step test instead of my usual 10 x 3'/1'. If we buy the model the run argument that LT1 and VT1 are about the same, I guess mine is ~25. Checks out since on easy runs when I've counted I'm normally breathing 20-24 per min.

First 11 all 5 mins, 4:08 was 2:30, 6:40 was 7:30. Two RRs for the last one since i did at like 3 mins in and for the last min, just to see how it changed. Otherwise all RR readings were taken for approx the last minute (tho really from 3:30-4:30 of the rep to give me time to adjust pace on watch etc).

HR correlations slightly confounded since on weekend I run post-coffee/post-medication, whereas on weekdays I run before either of those. Also this was indoors, airconned, treadmill vs outdoors, hot, undulating. Anyway, might use this and let pace move around a bit more on easy runs as long as I'm sub ~24 breaths/minute. The article was less clear on using it to demarcate LT2, but based on HR/feel/pace correlations etc, 38 also seems about right there. As I noted the other day, last mins on reps was like 37. So, looks like things be gucci.

Also, kind of enjoyed doing this on the treadmill, nice to just set it and forget it.

Will do leg lifting in the pm to split things up.


PM

1A Rev Nord
10 x 10 + BW x 5
10 x 6 + BW x 5

1B RDL
130 x 10 + 120 x 5

2A Airplane
24 x 6, 5

2B Copenhagen Plank
7.5 x 7, 5 + Iso

3A Lateral
17.5 x Lots + some + fewer

3B Hammer Curl
17.5 x lots + some + fewer

176
when do you think the a/c turning point will be for the UK? it's been ubiquitous in the states for decades, i've never lived in a house without it.

at homes? maybe new builds have them, not sure tbh. my office aircon is great, at least.

btw check out the latest magness video, especially the first and last 3 seconds  :uhhhfacepalm:

177
that was interesting. i'm not sure i'm going to start using it imminently, but i like the guy's style. funny to note that the first comment is a reference for more fancy gear. clicked through to the norwegian singles article and that seems like it would be interesting to try, maybe next year if i manage to get through this year with a real build up in training consistency and volume. i kind of have qualifying for boston as a back-of-the mind goal now. and getting faster over shorter distances. like, touch wood the rest of the year goes well, i achieve my ultra goals, and maybe next year i dial in on 18:xx 5k and sub-3:00 marathon.

made an appointment with a neurologist for the end of july, earliest i could get in with one that's in-network and came with a strong referral for migraines specifically.

norwegian singles is what i've been doing for the last while. it just feels very manageable/sensible, structured like a good lifting programme (put you near, but shy your recoverable volume, progress absolute load but keep relative load approximately same, only moving that lever when you need to, etc). also just never have to think about sessions, which i enjoy, happy to lock into a boring thing and do it on repeat. there's a good strava group and subreddit for it with lots of stuff about how people have adapted it to the marathon.

178
I meant breaths per minute. Less confounders than trying to pair with steps since cadence changes with pace (for me at least), and also counting two things at once is hard.

Check out the article i linked in my previous post, it's a nice overview on using respiration rate as an effort proxy.

179
20-06-2025

Run -- 7.11k, 50:52

Notes

Lol slow. 124 HR avg at least. Slept like 5 hours tops each of the last two nights. Too hot at night to sleep well.

180
migraine started friday night and is just now starting to dissipate close to midday on sunday. not an auspicious first week for my 50-miler build.

update: or second week, obviously. woke up this morning without a headache for the first time since last friday. will go for a cautious run later, probably inside because it's hot today and that just seems like asking for trouble.

btw @joe, i watched a short from will o'connor where he talks about how easy it is for a run with hills on it to slip out of zone 2 when you're climbing, even if HR doesn't change. apparently, if you're aerobically fit enough, you can buffer the extra costs of running uphill for a little while (i guess longer and/or steeper the fitter you are) without it affecting HR. an argument in your favor against relying on HR as the primary metric. seems like you can kinda fudge a power-based workout with just the watch but to do it right you have to get a stryd pod. oh boy, more gear... :uhhhfacepalm: i'll probably stick with HR as the main thing and use pace for intervals.

gotta be honest that read like bs and i went to watch and i still think that's bs. first of all, stryd/power meters for running stink. secondly, if you're buffering that stuff, then like so what it's probably not really creating extra fatigue? and third, like who cares if it's a "zone 2" run (love this interview for debunking the zone 2 hype: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6DhfMJH84E -- gist, in terms of adaptation, doesn't really matter that much what zone you're in, just aim for whatever combination let's you accumulate the most training).

way i think easy runs is that hr is great for setting an upper bound, b/c if you're below some arbitrary fairly low number (i use 70%, which probably puts me in zone 1 rather than 2 anyway), you're defo going easy enough. pace fine too but hr does a better job of keeping me honest (you can see how slow i go, when the same calculators i use for interval paces are saying i should be doing like 5:50 or whatever for easy runs), and i have to take my easy runs very easy so i can do 3 sessions a week.

and yeah, for intervals, i like pace as the like framework, and then hr as the progression metric, kind of like sticking with the same weight/reps and having more reps in reserve over time.

I read this article the other day: https://modeltheruncom.wpcomstaging.com/2025/05/17/respiration-rate-1/

that left me feeling very intrigued by respiration rate as a metric. have been counting breaths during some sessions to try and build an internal sense of where various thresholds sit in relation to each other. might try out the step test this weekend on a treadmill if i feel like hiding from the sun for the saturday session.

Also, wishing you the best with the migraines!

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