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Messages - Gary

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1
really glad to hear about the knees healing up man.. pretty crazy how wrecked your knees were with all that draining going on.. stay healthy.

as for what to do... all i know is you should start out VERY slow. maybe even less than 150.. bodyqweight, 45, and 95 for 3-4 weeks, progress very slow, keep frequency low, and just feel it out.. i wouldnt worry about any goals for now other than figuring out if you can progress slow & squat pain/effusion free.. the last thing you want to do is jump in to 150 & have a severe response, imo.

pC man

You were very right. Slow is the key. I managed to stick with bodyweight to 95 for a few weeks. I even did 135 and 175 over two weeks without incident. I really think it was loaded articulation (those super light front squats) so soon after the super light back squats that caused this latest episode. Got to keep frequency really low for the foreseeable future. Squat as often as an old school American powerlifter instead of a Russian weightlifter.

2
NO barbell, just bands.

http://www.verticaljumping.com/power_jumper.html

The Portable Power Jumper is composed of bands that attached to holders you wear around your ankles. You loop the bands across your shoulders and they stretch as you lift your torso away from your ankles (where the bands' ends are secured) in a jump. The resistance obviously grows as the bands stretch, forcing you to accelerate more than usual in order to get the same velocity off the ground.

Using too much band resistance defeats the purpose. Just a little band resistance fires up your nervous sytem to make you move faster (and hence jump higher) once the bands are off. Too much resistance turns this back into a weighted squat practically and moves you from speed over to the strength side of the speed-strength curve.

You don't HAVE to buy the PPJ. You can use a couple of mini bands. Loop one under each foot and then over the neck and then jump.

Again, this may not be what you need. But it helped me. A little accomodating resistance "taught" my body how to move more quickly, develop force faster, etc. This was after a couple years of doing nothing but heavy squatting and deadlifting. I'd gotten much better at moving heavier things slowly, but I hadn't practiced moving quickly. The band jumping "turned the speed on". What was amazing was how quickly it did it. Immediate improvement after just a few triples with the bands. Gains promptly slowed down after that and I never got to 30" before I had to take a break from lower body work. But 2" in one day isn't bad (and indicates that I just really needed something to force me to move faster with my existing strength).



honestly, just do depth jumps.

I'm guessing you don't realize I'm the guy who had to drain all that fluid out of his banged up knee every day for a couple of years..?

And don't assume that I didn't try depth jumps. You seem exasperated that the bands worked better for me than the depth jumps did. Why is that?

3
So I'd been doing well by squatting 3 times every 2 weeks (Monday-Friday-Wednesday) and slowly upping my numbers from bodyweight to bar to 95 to 135 and recently to 175.

A couple days after I squatted 175, however, I messed around with a couple power snatches, power jerks and front squats. I'm talking reall light stuff. 135 and 145 singles with powersnatch, 175 with front squat + jerk.

The next day my knees were achy, but it felt more like quad pain versus actual joint pain. Two days later (today) and I see that a little effusion has crept back into the left knee.

I'm doubling up on my compression wraps to fight it. And I'm trying not to panic. I've spent a month squatting lightly without incident. I'm guessing that this is a transient problem that can be handled with conservative methods (compression instead of draining) and that it's because I simply cannot use my knees as frequently as I used to.

As always, opinions are welcome.

4
NO barbell, just bands.

http://www.verticaljumping.com/power_jumper.html

The Portable Power Jumper is composed of bands that attached to holders you wear around your ankles. You loop the bands across your shoulders and they stretch as you lift your torso away from your ankles (where the bands' ends are secured) in a jump. The resistance obviously grows as the bands stretch, forcing you to accelerate more than usual in order to get the same velocity off the ground.

Using too much band resistance defeats the purpose. Just a little band resistance fires up your nervous sytem to make you move faster (and hence jump higher) once the bands are off. Too much resistance turns this back into a weighted squat practically and moves you from speed over to the strength side of the speed-strength curve.

You don't HAVE to buy the PPJ. You can use a couple of mini bands. Loop one under each foot and then over the neck and then jump.

Again, this may not be what you need. But it helped me. A little accomodating resistance "taught" my body how to move more quickly, develop force faster, etc. This was after a couple years of doing nothing but heavy squatting and deadlifting. I'd gotten much better at moving heavier things slowly, but I hadn't practiced moving quickly. The band jumping "turned the speed on". What was amazing was how quickly it did it. Immediate improvement after just a few triples with the bands. Gains promptly slowed down after that and I never got to 30" before I had to take a break from lower body work. But 2" in one day isn't bad (and indicates that I just really needed something to force me to move faster with my existing strength).

5
What really helped me IMMEDIATELY turn my squat strength into a higher vertical was jumping againt band resistance.

Upped my squat, both low bar and high bar over a couple of years. Vertical stayed at 23". Jumped with that gimmicky looking Power Jumper and got to 25" that very day. Got as high as 28" over the next few weeks.

I'm sure you could get the same effect from using minibands.

6
I can still snatch 145+ even though I'm squatting 200 lbs under my best.

I'm finally getting back into squatting after three months off all lower body training (to let serious inflammation and effusion die down). I've spent a month working bodyweight-only squats every four or five days, then adding the bar and then 95 and 135 (as Andrew recommended). Now today I've finally gone above 135. Squatted 175 for five. I was exhausted afterward. Trembling. Took 20 minutes to recover.

Yet about half an hour before the squatting, I tried my power snatch out of sheer curiosity. I got 135 up, but lost my balance before I could lock it. It had been five months since I tried it, after all. Then I got 135 clean and 145 almost as clean (a little slower at the very top).

My best ever power snatch was just ten pounds or so more. I think I got 158. I know I did at least 155. I was making regular progress in new personal bests when my knee problems forced me to stop all squatting, pulling, running and jumping for a while.

So I'm amazed that I can still power snatch within 10% of my all time best after months of not doing any leg work of any kind. Meanwhile I can barely squat more than I can snatch! I don't think I could squat 225 right now.

The power snatch of an efficient lifter ought to be around a little more than 50% of his high bar/Olympic squat [power snatch = 80% of full snatch, full snatch = 80-85% of full clean, full clean = 85-90% of front squat, front squat = 85-90% of back squat].

That I can snatch about the same while my absolute leg strength is so far down tells me that I wasn't converting that former leg strength into the snatch (or other quick lifts) at all. And it's not like I can blame lack of technique since tihs is only the power snatch we're talking about. Yeah, the power version takes technique, too, but not as much. Non-specialists on the classic lifts can usually use more weight in the power version. This was a test of power, not of technique. And my power was about the same with a ~200-lb squat as it was with a mid-300's squat.

If anyone has any explanations, I'm all ears.

Thanks for reading.


7
I hate the American style of squatting once per week also. But dammit, I got jumper's knee in both knees (but heavy in my left knee) and gave in.

I'm doing 5/3/1 now. You should look into that. Slow, consistent gains.

A few months ago I read a quote from some Russian or Eastern European coach who claimed that those high frequency/high volume routines weren't meant for regular people. Those routines were meant to separate potential champions from also-rans. Those with the potential -- i.e. superior recovery ability -- to win medals thrived on the stuff. Those without the potential eventually burned out.

Quite honestly I'm surprised that I lasted as long as I did.

Not to say that high frequency/high volume can't produce results. This stuff works so well that I was afraid that anything else would be a waste of time! But it ahs to used with the trainee's capacity in mind. I got greedy and used Smolov repeatedly almost back to back multiple times over two years. Slow and steady with the occasional bout of high frequency/high intensity would probably have kept me from developing this chronic joint inflammation and resulting pain and effusion. More frequent use of back off weeks also makes a lot of sense. So does adjusting training to account for other factors, i.e. cutting back on squats when also jumping or doing the classic lifts.

Right now, I'm using the fairly gentle "Russian" Squat Routine for bench, making great gains doing it thrice per week. But I'm only doing the building volume part and resetting after getting to 6x6 and 5x5. I'm also not doing any lower body work so more recovery can be devoted to bench. When I start squatting again. I'll just do twice per week benching with one light day and squatting (very light at first) on that light day. And I'm interspersing these 3-week building volume cycles with back off weeks right now.


8
as for what to do... all i know is you should start out VERY slow. maybe even less than 150.. bodyqweight, 45, and 95 for 3-4 weeks, progress very slow, keep frequency low, and just feel it out.. i wouldnt worry about any goals for now other than figuring out if you can progress slow & squat pain/effusion free.. the last thing you want to do is jump in to 150 & have a severe response, imo.

pC man

Oh yeah, I should have mentioned that I plan to break back in really slow. Not work up to my current max the first day like I might have done in the past. Bodyweight first, then the bar, then 95, then 135, then 165 over the course of a month or so.

I guess my question is how long to take to build up my knees before even trying to do an actual routine again. Do I spend a month just doing bodyweight for reps? Then make a jump in weight every week: the bar, 95, 135, 165? Do I wait three more months to even begin bodyweight squats for reps, then spend three to six months doing just those??

I have no idea how much longer to wait and then how long to keep it light and build up resilience in my knees' connective tissue. Any suggestions would be very welcome.

9
Injury, Prehab, & Rehab talk for the brittlebros / Rest Cures Effusion
« on: March 18, 2012, 09:44:47 pm »
Looks like I really needed to rest from all squatting and jumping for a good long while.

I read a very old book online about knee effusion. The suggested treatment was months -- not just weeks -- of total rest. I finally gave in and stopped all lower body training. Remember I was at the point where walking more than a quarter mile or standing more than fifteen minutes would cause my knees to fill up!

I haven't squatted with a barbell since early December except for a couple overhead squats a few weeks ago. My knees got better almost daily with the rest. Pain cleared up after about a month and effusion stopped refilling and actually went down. My left knee remained just a tiny bit puffy and so I finally drained it one more time a couple weeks ago. Got only 6-7 cc of clear fluid which has not come back.

I can squat down with knees forward without pain, though I get uncomfortable if I remain in that position more than a minute. I have walked for miles without causing effusion. I've even jogged here and there. My knees still get a little tired if I carry a lot of stuff as I did during my own move and a friend's recently. But I am largely pain and effusion free now because I've stopped traumatizing my knees with frequent heavy squatting.

This brings me to my problem. I'm obviously afraid that squat and jump training will never be tolerated well by my banged up knees. I figure I should take a page from the American style of training and limit my squats to once per week when I test them again. Clearly I wasn't giving my knees enough time to recover between heavy loading and use. I am also wondering if I should wait another three months before reintroducing squats.

My stated plan is to wait another three months, then do a linear progression with squats only one day per week, using wraps and starting with 1RM - 150 lbs and adding 10 lbs per session till I am doing triples with my old 1RM four months later.

This is actually an old routine popularized by Ricky Dale Crain. Two sets of five regular followed by two sets of five paused with ~50 lbs less. Halfway through switch to triples. Nice limited volume, half of which is paused squats which are must gentler on the knees. Very low frequency. I also like how it starts with very light weights, the kind I'll be forced to use because my squat will likely be around 60% of my old pre-layoff max (It was after my last layoff of several weeks).

10
It's the next day and my knees are feeling way better than they should be at this point. I think it was the leg curls.

We keep hearing how we need to balance upper body pushing (pressing) with upper body pulling (chinning/rowing) in order to avoid imbalances that could easily lead to pain and dysfunction of the shoulder. Yet we're told that leg curls are a waste of time...as if the relatively delicate load-bearing joint of the knee doesn't need some balance.

I've spent a couple of years training the extensors of the knee to get much, much stronger. Meanwhile I haven't trained the flexing function at all. The common wisdom now says that it's fine just to train the proximal function of the hamstrings (hip extension). But  I think a horrible imbalance has built up in my case by avoiding the distal hamstring function (knee flexion).

I suspect the high rep leg curls from last night created some residual tonus that restored a semblance of balance. That's my theory right now anyway. It's too soon for the curls to have induced any benefit from actual thickening of the connective tissue.

11
Lance, thanks again! I will take the advice on alternating rep schemes. Did 50-rep leg curls tonight and they did make my knees feel a lot better. Still had to drain them both a bit and they still hurt, but they feel more "solid" after the pump.

This all makes me wonder about trends and "lost" training knowledge. Back before the 80's, powerlifters often did isolation work, did they not? Nowadays, everything's all "Bulgarian" and minimalist specialization, but there seems to be a lot of wisdom in including bodybuilding/isolation work, especially as a trainee ages.

I think we all assume that the main lifts will take care of everything, but that ain't necessarily so. The main lifts can really beat up the joints and connective tissue without developing them, especially as things get heavier.

And also training more often over time may not be for every trainee. Those blessed with unusual resilience and recovery (and aided by drugs) may thrive on it, but a lot of us may be better off cutting the frequency over time.


12
I've been meaning to implement this "24 Total Reps" thing I came up with a while ago. Progressing through 12x2, 8x3, 6x4, 4x6, 3x8, 2x12. Moving from a set of twelve down to a set of two over a few months. I'll do it now with the paused squat and start really light with the numbers set so I end up doing a paused squat with my current max after four months or so...

set x reps
2x12
135
145
155

3x8
165
175
185

4x6
195
205
215

6x4
225
235
245

8x3
255
265
275

12x2
295
305
315

3x1
325
335
345

x1
355

After that I can spend some time working on the standard squat and probably add 50 or more pounds to that number with a bounce at the bottom. That's the plan anyway. Subject to change if I get stuck. Who knows if I can actually hit these numbers, right? Eventually, I may end up spending most of my time in the 8-12 rep range for squats. I'll probably be using pauses most of the time from now on too.

This would be one barbell squat session a week. I would include at least one other day a week for Hindu/bodyweight-only squats for higher volume. I did some of those this morning and my knees felt better almost immediately. Higher rep isolation work on the barbell squat days including extensions and curls and TKEs.

13
Thanks very much for responding, Lance! Everything you wrote makes perfect sense.

Looking back, I realize that I'd been spending every squat session going to over 90%. I need to spend more time in the blood pump rep range and build up tissue and resilience.

I really like the idea of the pause squats. The last couple of sessions I did the first couple of warm up sets with controlled descent and a slight paused and noticed immediately that my knees felt better. I would then switch to the usual bounce style after 225 or so. I thought handling the most possible weight was important for progress and that using the SSC was preferable, but I am more than willing to try them out.

14
I might have made my knees permanently sensitive to loading and they fill up with synovial fluid whenever I stress them in any way. It started three years with my right knee when I sprained the MCL. Over time my left knee also started to fill up as it took most of the stress during training.

I kept draining the right knee (and posting about it in other forums like Starting Strength) and it eventually stabilized. But I was also doing stuff like repeated Smolov base phases throughout the year. Eventually I had to start draining the left knee. It's been about a year and I'm still having to drain it.

In any case, things were looking pretty good and the left knee seemed to be stabilizing. Then I went and did some dunk practice (with half-sized balls on a 9'10" rim) before some power snatch singles and squats. I'd also upped my squat frequency from the careful once per week I'd been doing to three times per week. Now this past week my knees have gone to hell.

They tend to fill up most when I stand around and drink. After all that increased stress, I had to fly in for the company Christmans part where I stood around for four hours and drank. That night I drained twice as much as normal from my left knee (40cc +) and had to drain my right knee again (30cc +). Today I've drained another 20 from the left and 15 from the right. The extreme pain is gone, but I'm sure the refilling will continue.

I think it was a combination of those landings from the dunks (the court is some kind of rubberized material covering the old concrete slab) and the increased squat frequency.

I wonder if I should squat at all anymore or try to jump. My knees clearly cannot take much stress and I wonder if I should be training at all anymore. I hit a double bodyweight Olympic squat this year and was excited about pushing toward 2.5 x bodyweight and dunking. I'm reluctant to give it all up and lose my quad mass and go back to being weak, skinny and slow. But I'm about to turn 36 and no one is paying me to abuse my body like this.

(And of course I use knee protection. Had Rehbands and just added Tommy Konos. I got through Smolov last time by using wraps on the work sets.)

15
very interesting. wonder how much of the effect is acute and how much is really lasting.

are you going to incorporate them into training from now on? if yes, how? or was it a one-and-done thing?

The extremely quick effects tell me it's neural, but there may be some longer lasting benefit to the connective tissue and joint structure itself. I see no reason not to keep these as pre-hab along with high rep leg curls (which Lance recommended for beat up knees).

I want to experiment with progressive movement training, doing this partial work after the volume work with full squats, and working down an inch every month or so while lowering the load. This may carry over to the full movement. At the very least it will get my knees and quads strong so they are no longer a weak link in my full squat.

I built my squat strength low bar style and I think that left a lot of quad/knee development out. Partial work like this may be helping to address an imbalance that is now showing up as I switched to a more quad-dominant style of squatting.

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