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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4605 on: January 09, 2019, 02:16:19 am »
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Coming from someone who's not a runner but tried to join the "squad", running slow is an absolute mind fuck. It's embarrassing, there's no ego to it and sometimes you can be confused with someone who broke into a fast walk. It absolutely works though.

just don't understand the point bro. why spend an hour doing something you could get done in less than half the time. and if you're just going for distance then at my version of SLOW SPEED it would take literally 2 hours or more. I can understand mo farah doing a long run of 2 hours and doing like a good fraction of a marathon. at my slow speed i would be there all day to get to 10km .. no sense made whatsoever
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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4606 on: January 09, 2019, 02:22:27 am »
+1
Today i was too weak to squat a 3RM of 150kg (got 3x147.5kg yesterday) and im prob gonna put it down to the hard run this morning eating into my performance. However the funny thing is i was able to progress my 10rm just fine, getting 10x130kg which is a lifetime PR (and the 127.5kg was the same yesterday and so on forth). Plug in the 1rm calculator app on my phone and it says i shud have a 172.5kg max - lol yea alright, that's why i racked 150kg after the first rep cos i didn't think i would get a clean 2nd leave alone a 3rd. So what's going on? It's just the same thing we've been talking about -- the illusion of progress / productive training by doing something easier just to say you're making progress even tho there is almost zero translation between longer sets and runs to shorter more intense ones. I buy in to the longer rep sets though, cos it's nice to make progress regularly even if it's just fools gold to take it for anything other than what it is. something holistic would just make regular PRs as part of training and the problem with longer runs (and being specific here duration) just runs into the same problem that as you increase speed it becomes harder, so where is the progress?
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LBSS

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4607 on: January 09, 2019, 05:34:12 am »
+2
sorry that was per km pace not miles. I dont know what a mile is  :wowthatwasnutswtf:

i can do real world running at slow pace better but on TM it's harder getting a good warmup b/c it's locking you into a speed at all times. but lately running any pace just doesn't seem feasible .. im not sure why, my calf starts bugging out. it might be an over-use thing going on

Thought about it more and im pretty sure running has been good to me but ive reached the point of diminishing returns with it very quickly b/c of competing recovery resources. Something like limiting my daily running to 5km but trying to improve speed will help me more. To get fitness i won't get it from running but perhaps from a workout like the following:
- Treadmill run (or road if i run to the gym)  30 min (at around 5-6min/km pace)
- Row 30 min (for a given HR goal even tho i don't trust these gadgets for that .. will figure it out somehow)
- Bike 30 min.

That's a 90 minute 'long' cardio workout without the problems of trying to do a long run at a too slow pace that the total mileage is embarrassingly low (like 10-12km). It has better carry over to bball because the running is more specific to the way i feel during games (ded lol) and with the cross training of the rowing for upper body and bike to take fatigue out of beating up joints that running more would entail. win win?

counterpoint: you should not be embarrassed by the speed your body needs to work at! everyone has to start somewhere. you are, despite all your second-guessing and overanalysis, a patient and diligent person. i really think that you're best off starting with no ambition other than to just get consistent with running easy. on that note i'll contradict adarq a little bit: if 9-10 kph is the easiest pace for you and slower paces are harder, that's okay. do what feels right and mix things up later. over time i believe you'll get more out of running 30+ mins at 10 km/hr consistently than trying to force 90 minute cardio complexes.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

sunday: long very easy run 80+ mins @ 5:40+ (14+ km)
monday: strength/cross training
tuesday: extensive tempo (7 km) OR fartlek (mostly easy pace with mix of strides, hills, long tempo) 45 mins (8+ km)
wednesday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km)
thursday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km), strength/cross-training
friday: rest
saturday: short tempo 6-8x500 @ sub-4:00 (7 km)

strength would be:
- hops 2x10
- box jumps or ME SVJ 2x5
- squats 3x6-8 or weighted BSS/lunges 3x10/leg
- RDL/hypers 2x10-12 or SLRDL 2x10-12/leg
- upper push myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- upper pull myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- leg raises, holds, pallof presses

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4608 on: January 09, 2019, 05:58:49 am »
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I spose it's the cognitive dissonance of internalising all these maxims:

- more miles more good
- slower is good

and if you accept them as is - then for a beginner it's saying do something impossible because you have to get a lot of miles and yet you're being told to do it very very very slowly (in an absolute sense). you can't do both. you can do more miles but you are already slow to begin with. take andrew's pace for his 45 min long run, that's not far from my tempo pace. i can see how it would work for him to do a submax run at that pace and still get enough miles in.

unpickling another assumption is prob that you're better than average a runner (starting out or whatever)  from the get-go and able to get a reasonable amount of weekly mileage strictly observing the above maxims. I watched one video where the guy suggested getting a weekly mileage of 100 miles (i think that's around 160km but idk) - but lets figure out what that averages to per day, 22km? even half that is way too much (and i did that for a while) - the only way i could get 10-15km/day was doing two-a-days and i don't think that was sustainable (for me).

but yea im glad i thought to write all this stuff cos it didnt make sense to me and now having written it all out i can see why, the rules are mutually contradictory. literally doesn't work unless you're already a runner and in which case you don't need any rule to tell you how to structure your training..

if someone could tell me how to get to my running goal of a sub 20 5k while doing at most 5km/day then i'd be happy to listen. obviously orthdox running would have me doing 50-100km a week and yea that's not my thing not right now .. maybe in the winter (i actually would love to do a winter of just focusing on running)
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LBSS

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4609 on: January 09, 2019, 06:17:26 am »
+2
they're only dissonant if you have an unrealistic time table and targets. slower is good, at first, when your body is just getting used to running, getting in the habit and feel of it. i spend months in 2017 running much too hard and too short for my fitness level. even elite runners spend most of their time running at "slow" paces, although as adarq pointed out what's slow for them might be very fast for you and me. but they point is they are (1) freaks and (2) the product of years of patient training.

more mileage is good but that is relative to where you're starting. 100 miles a week is extremely high.

you probably can't run under 20:00 for 5k without getting up over 50 km/week, or never running longer than the target distance. but given where you're starting from, you'd probably benefit a lot from far less than that. and, much like squatting, the benefits may not show up overnight, but they do show up eventually. last spring, i played ultimate for the first time since the previous fall when i hurt my shoulder. in the interim i'd been running 25-40 km/week, no speed work or anything, and doing no other exercise to speak of. at the end of the second or third point i was startled to realize that i wasn't winded. i was, in fact, in much better aerobic shape than i'd been a few months earlier. take that for what it's worth.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

sunday: long very easy run 80+ mins @ 5:40+ (14+ km)
monday: strength/cross training
tuesday: extensive tempo (7 km) OR fartlek (mostly easy pace with mix of strides, hills, long tempo) 45 mins (8+ km)
wednesday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km)
thursday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km), strength/cross-training
friday: rest
saturday: short tempo 6-8x500 @ sub-4:00 (7 km)

strength would be:
- hops 2x10
- box jumps or ME SVJ 2x5
- squats 3x6-8 or weighted BSS/lunges 3x10/leg
- RDL/hypers 2x10-12 or SLRDL 2x10-12/leg
- upper push myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- upper pull myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- leg raises, holds, pallof presses

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4610 on: January 09, 2019, 06:25:39 am »
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But it doesn't shift the dissonance. If i'm at low miles (because athletic background) b/c im slow then it would make sense to progress my speed,  no? And yet of the the various variables that's one you're being told to go backwards in.

Literally all of my objections amount to this, is it ok to do a 40 minute run where you're only getting 5km of distance covered? how does this help make me a faster runner? also if you look at basketball studies, the average HR for a player over the entire match (including dead periods) is 160-180bpm. So would it make sense to do more training closer to that range than say 140. I know what the argument is for long slow running (if you accept it and even if i did) it runs into a wall cos weekly mileage wud be so low to not offer much benefit to faster runs. tbh i can see how it 'could work' if you were sufficiently fast then going submax you can still get a decent amount of km done
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maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4611 on: January 09, 2019, 06:29:28 am »
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but the worst thing is indecision, so yea lemme just do it a different way. i think that's more fun anyway to work it out on your own and find your own path. i followed orthodox advice when it came to lifting and it took doing a crazy daily squat experiment to make some progress that i just don't find much faith in orthodox training advice, no offense to anyone .. i can see the limitations for how well it can work for someone who is not the ideal candidate. i'll stop just short of calling it nonsensical tho.
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Mutumbo000

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4612 on: January 09, 2019, 07:13:54 am »
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Today i was too weak to squat a 3RM of 150kg (got 3x147.5kg yesterday) and im prob gonna put it down to the hard run this morning eating into my performance. However the funny thing is i was able to progress my 10rm just fine, getting 10x130kg which is a lifetime PR (and the 127.5kg was the same yesterday and so on forth). Plug in the 1rm calculator app on my phone and it says i shud have a 172.5kg max - lol yea alright, that's why i racked 150kg after the first rep cos i didn't think i would get a clean 2nd leave alone a 3rd. So what's going on? It's just the same thing we've been talking about -- the illusion of progress / productive training by doing something easier just to say you're making progress even tho there is almost zero translation between longer sets and runs to shorter more intense ones. I buy in to the longer rep sets though, cos it's nice to make progress regularly even if it's just fools gold to take it for anything other than what it is. something holistic would just make regular PRs as part of training and the problem with longer runs (and being specific here duration) just runs into the same problem that as you increase speed it becomes harder, so where is the progress?

For the squat if you have a theoretical max of 172.5kg based on 130kgx10 reps but struggle with 150kg it's probably because you're not used to lifting the heavier weight. Your body adapts to what you train it at. If you started practicing heavy singles and also worked on doing half squats with 200+kg to get used to the weight on your back I wouldn't be surprised if you came close to 172.5kg in a couple of months. However, in rare circumstances you might be an anomaly where you're just great at being able to push out 10 reps. When I first started lifting I was mentored by one of my mum's friends who was a bodybuilder. He could easily rep out 12 reps of 120kg on bench but would struggle with benching anything 140kg+ because he was used to doing 8-20 reps with short rests (<1 minute) between sets.

Edit- Congrats on the  :personal-record:. As for running I think you should just experiment and do what you think is best. If your goal is to run 5km in sub 20 then get used to running for 20 minutes and keep increasing the speed.

To run 5km in 20 minutes or less you need to be running at 15km/h (4:00 minute 1km speed).
https://www.depicus.com/swim-bike-run/pace-conversion-chart

Atm you can't run that fast so start off running at 10km/h for 20 minute.
The next session try running at 10.3, 10.6, 10.9 etc. If the 0.3 intervals are too much reduce it down to 0.2 or even 0.1. Once you stall you can start doing other things like adarqui suggested e.g. speed work and longer runs.

Just my opinion (I have no distance running experience!!!).

« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 07:23:40 am by Mutumbo000 »
"IMO, It didn't happen if it's not on vid/official"- adarqui

It's easier to keep up than it is to catch up...

Mutumbo000

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4613 on: January 09, 2019, 07:29:12 am »
0
Today i was too weak to squat a 3RM of 150kg (got 3x147.5kg yesterday) and im prob gonna put it down to the hard run this morning eating into my performance. However the funny thing is i was able to progress my 10rm just fine, getting 10x130kg which is a lifetime PR (and the 127.5kg was the same yesterday and so on forth). Plug in the 1rm calculator app on my phone and it says i shud have a 172.5kg max - lol yea alright, that's why i racked 150kg after the first rep cos i didn't think i would get a clean 2nd leave alone a 3rd. So what's going on? It's just the same thing we've been talking about -- the illusion of progress / productive training by doing something easier just to say you're making progress even tho there is almost zero translation between longer sets and runs to shorter more intense ones. I buy in to the longer rep sets though, cos it's nice to make progress regularly even if it's just fools gold to take it for anything other than what it is. something holistic would just make regular PRs as part of training and the problem with longer runs (and being specific here duration) just runs into the same problem that as you increase speed it becomes harder, so where is the progress?

For the squat if you have a theoretical max of 172.5kg based on 130kgx10 reps but struggle with 150kg it's probably because you're not used to lifting the heavier weight. Your body adapts to what you train it at. If you started practicing heavy singles and also worked on doing half squats with 200+kg to get used to the weight on your back I wouldn't be surprised if you came close to 172.5kg in a couple of months. However, in rare circumstances you might be an anomaly where you're just great at being able to push out 10 reps. When I first started lifting I was mentored by one of my mum's friends who was a bodybuilder. He could easily rep out 12 reps of 120kg on bench but would struggle with benching anything 140kg+ because he was used to doing 8-20 reps with short rests (<1 minute) between sets.

Edit- Congrats on the  :personal-record:. As for running I think you should just experiment and do what you think is best. If your goal is to run 5km in sub 20 then get used to running for 20 minutes and keep increasing the speed.

To run 5km in 20 minutes or less you need to be running at 15km/h (4:00 minute 1km speed).
https://www.depicus.com/swim-bike-run/pace-conversion-chart

Atm you can't run that fast so start off running at 10km/h for 20 minute.
The next session try running at 10.3, 10.6, 10.9 etc. If the 0.3 intervals are too much reduce it down to 0.2 or even 0.1. Once you stall you can start doing other things like adarqui suggested e.g. speed work and longer runs.

Just my opinion (I have no distance running experience!!!).

The pacing is easy on a treadmill. If you're worried about treadmill running being non-specific to actual running do it on an oval if you have a stopwatch/additional tech equipment you can replicate the strategy by adjusting your pace.
"IMO, It didn't happen if it's not on vid/official"- adarqui

It's easier to keep up than it is to catch up...

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4614 on: January 09, 2019, 10:38:42 am »
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For the squat if you have a theoretical max of 172.5kg based on 130kgx10 reps but struggle with 150kg it's probably because you're not used to lifting the heavier weight. Your body adapts to what you train it at. If you started practicing heavy singles and also worked on doing half squats with 200+kg to get used to the weight on your back I wouldn't be surprised if you came close to 172.5kg in a couple of months. However, in rare circumstances you might be an anomaly where you're just great at being able to push out 10 reps. When I first started lifting I was mentored by one of my mum's friends who was a bodybuilder. He could easily rep out 12 reps of 120kg on bench but would struggle with benching anything 140kg+ because he was used to doing 8-20 reps with short rests (<1 minute) between sets. 

My 'program' lately has been start with 120kg, do it for a given number of reps (started with 6). then increase the weight each time for the same reps. when i got up to 132.5kg i stall usually, reset back to 120 and add reps, work up again. did it for 8s and now 10s. So far ive got this up to 10x130kg. I think 12 or 15 would be mastering 120kg. My hope is that eventually i'll be able to rep 140kg a lot better. Ive never been able to do more than 5 even when i was able to do 10 sets of 5 with 137.5kg in one workout. so 1rm estimates aren't accurate but that's okay it's progress and eventually if i can 10x150kg i'll be able to do an ez 170kg single (maybe). that's on paper. The easier/lighter i can make 120kg (2 red plates a side), the better i'll be trying to squat heavy for a max rep eventually.

Quote
Edit- Congrats on the  :personal-record:. As for running I think you should just experiment and do what you think is best. If your goal is to run 5km in sub 20 then get used to running for 20 minutes and keep increasing the speed.

it's weird how that works. i did a 'long' run at 9.1km/hr for 65mins which was my PR. Tried to improve on it by going up to 9.2km/hr and 67.5min and just hit a wall hard, couldn't break 30 minutes. was trying to work up to 10km/hr on the longer run for 90 minutes, turns out i can't seem to make progress on both speed and duration. My PR for 5km is 24:36 and seems pretty daunting to try get that down to 20.

i dont have a problem with treadmill running. initially going from TM to real world was jarring but after a couple of real world runs they're pretty much interchangeable which was a relief.

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LBSS

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4615 on: January 09, 2019, 11:33:20 am »
+1
But it doesn't shift the dissonance. If i'm at low miles (because athletic background) b/c im slow then it would make sense to progress my speed,  no? And yet of the the various variables that's one you're being told to go backwards in.

Literally all of my objections amount to this, is it ok to do a 40 minute run where you're only getting 5km of distance covered? how does this help make me a faster runner? also if you look at basketball studies, the average HR for a player over the entire match (including dead periods) is 160-180bpm. So would it make sense to do more training closer to that range than say 140. I know what the argument is for long slow running (if you accept it and even if i did) it runs into a wall cos weekly mileage wud be so low to not offer much benefit to faster runs. tbh i can see how it 'could work' if you were sufficiently fast then going submax you can still get a decent amount of km done

the answer to the question i bolded is, "yes, if that is a moderately challenging effort for you." low intensity steady state cardio is a tick or two above walking; you should be able to have a conversation with someone but not without having to catch your breath once in a while. if you're really overweight or have emphysema, then maybe walking is the quickest you can do, in which case covering 3 km in 40 minutes is ok. building aerobic capacity makes you faster for sports by, among other things, improving your body's ability to recover from bursts of effort. that was what i noticed during my ultimate game last spring: i wasn't necessarily any faster at max speed, but i could reach max speed -- and change direction quickly -- more times over the course of multiple points. that made a big difference in my capacity on the field.

i think you're making a mistake that a lot of people do, myself included, which is assuming too direct a correlation between two different data points. you think "basketball is played at 160-180 bpm, jogging gets me to 140 bpm, therefore maybe jogging isn't an optimal way to train for basketball." but jogging and basketball are different activities, and jogging can absolutely help build physical capacities that improve your ability to do specific training for and to play basketball. it's GPP. same as squatting: there isn't a 1:1 relationship between squatting and basketball ability, to claim one would be silly. but getting a bigger squat has carryover into speed and jumping and boxing people out. jogging has carryover into not getting winded as easily during gameplay.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

sunday: long very easy run 80+ mins @ 5:40+ (14+ km)
monday: strength/cross training
tuesday: extensive tempo (7 km) OR fartlek (mostly easy pace with mix of strides, hills, long tempo) 45 mins (8+ km)
wednesday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km)
thursday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km), strength/cross-training
friday: rest
saturday: short tempo 6-8x500 @ sub-4:00 (7 km)

strength would be:
- hops 2x10
- box jumps or ME SVJ 2x5
- squats 3x6-8 or weighted BSS/lunges 3x10/leg
- RDL/hypers 2x10-12 or SLRDL 2x10-12/leg
- upper push myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- upper pull myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- leg raises, holds, pallof presses

adarqui

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4616 on: January 09, 2019, 11:34:27 am »
+2
LBSS, quick recap:
1. i told him to play more full court basketball
2. he says he can't etc
3. he came up with some running stuff, which was basically 2x/day, but lots of hard running
4. i told him to do most of his runs slow/relaxed, not looking at pace, for ~30 minutes or so, then try to get 1-2 hard sessions in per week
5. he said running was making his squat feel amazing, best thing ever, feels so strong/good etc
6. treadmill vs road vs grass stuff
7. diminishing returns after 2 weeks, slow running isn't for him
8. slow running is dogma
9. he needs to feel like he can progress each workout etc, so running might not be for him
10. he'll stop short of calling it nonsensical
11. he says part of the fun is figuring it out for yourself, which i can identify with

i wrote the brief recap because i saw a devil's advocate comment. i forget exactly what, but it was related to pace etc.

i told him not to worry about the watch, pace, etc.. don't worry about how slow he looks compared to others.

tbh, i think he has problems going that slow because of "ego". maxent has made some comments which elude to that.

i run very slow, most often. even slower than old ladies, who can sometimes pass me. doesn't bother me one bit. so i'm definitely someone who has seen the benefits of running very slow/relaxed. thing is, for me it works best at ~45 minutes or so (and adds more benefit the longer i go). for maxent, it would probably work great at 30 minutes.

so, if he was enjoying his 2x/day running, or even every day running, he should be going hard 2x/week, with the rest of the sessions slow & relaxed .. occasionally throwing in some short strides or ending with them, if he wanted. that'd be my advice.

he wanted to go faster like every workout/week etc, but it just doesn't work that way with running.

i'll stop just short of calling it nonsensical tho.

nice. because calling something nonsensical, while not knowing much about the subject, would be well - nonsensical.

 :ninja: :uhhhfacepalm:

also you asked if it's mileage or duration .. i told you several times, it's duration! don't worry about miles.

every single one of my runs, i simply write "1 hour" , "2 hours", "3 hours", "30 min", "45 min" etc.. i don't even write the mileage.

if you write the mileage, it makes you run too fast.

running to improve general fitness is very simple. you've already overcomplicated it like crazy. i mean that's not good to do in itself, but to do it with this confidence of calling the time tested basics "nonsensical" and "dogma" is just ridiculous. when it comes to conditioning you're self admittedly clueless, so chill with those "attack words" lmao. you know alot more about lifting/diet etc .. but conditioning is a completely different paradigm, takes a long time to learn/master. it's not easy. and the hardest aspect to learn about it, is how simple it is, yet how hard it is to perform the simple basics. the basics are hard to perform because they are so simple. they aren't shiny or amazing.

bottom line.. to build a strong foundation, one needs to improve their work capacity specific to the total duration of efforts, and total duration per week, per month, per year. etc.

peace!

adarqui

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4617 on: January 09, 2019, 11:35:29 am »
0
i think you're making a mistake that a lot of people do, myself included, which is assuming too direct a correlation between two different data points. you think "basketball is played at 160-180 bpm, jogging gets me to 140 bpm, therefore maybe jogging isn't an optimal way to train for basketball." but jogging and basketball are different activities, and jogging can absolutely help build physical capacities that improve your ability to do specific training for and to play basketball. it's GPP. same as squatting: there isn't a 1:1 relationship between squatting and basketball ability, to claim one would be silly. but getting a bigger squat has carryover into speed and jumping and boxing people out. jogging has carryover into not getting winded as easily during gameplay.

^^ :highfive:

very well said.

LBSS

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4618 on: January 09, 2019, 11:37:41 am »
+1
@adarq: yeah i've been following the dialogue. i think the problem is less ego than maxent's general tendency to overanalyze and assume the things he does know relate much more strongly than they probably do.

same problem avishek had, which is funny considering maxent's recent use of "nonsensical." (check my sig if you haven't in a while :P)
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

sunday: long very easy run 80+ mins @ 5:40+ (14+ km)
monday: strength/cross training
tuesday: extensive tempo (7 km) OR fartlek (mostly easy pace with mix of strides, hills, long tempo) 45 mins (8+ km)
wednesday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km)
thursday: easy run 60+ mins @ 5:20-5:30 (11+ km), strength/cross-training
friday: rest
saturday: short tempo 6-8x500 @ sub-4:00 (7 km)

strength would be:
- hops 2x10
- box jumps or ME SVJ 2x5
- squats 3x6-8 or weighted BSS/lunges 3x10/leg
- RDL/hypers 2x10-12 or SLRDL 2x10-12/leg
- upper push myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- upper pull myo-reps or sets to technical failure
- leg raises, holds, pallof presses

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #4619 on: January 09, 2019, 09:47:06 pm »
+1
For what it's worth, it's prob cos i'd been listening to too many ppl. Like cicirunner on youtube and Vo2maxproductions who stress the miles. not sure if anyone, not even andrew had explicitly mentioned duration as the key variable while limiting distance on the longer run. No one says you have to do 'X hours' per week they all talk about '100 miles' per week
Training for sub 20 5K & 40" RVJ & 170kg BS @ 85kg bw. log entry template