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entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #210 on: August 20, 2012, 11:17:19 am »
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The worst part imo of all that is driving your hips up vs driving YOU up.  What happens most of the time, in that picture if he were to go lower, he would simply get more leaned over, and keep the same or very similar knee angle.

Yeah, I see what you mean.

Quote
Looking at your front squat, I dont think mobility will be your issue, I think motor learning and getting stronger around the knee will have to take place to really make you comfortable with it. You can squat pretty upright with a low bar position too, and this is not a bad way to do it, you have to groove the squat differently though than your typical low bar, and drive your chest and shoulders, not your hips.

It's funny you should say this, I came away with a similar impression from todays workout. I'll explain in my workout summary.
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism - w9d1
« Reply #211 on: August 20, 2012, 11:29:19 am »
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Training
BS 3x90,2x100 (these were just warmups but cos I didn't do anything heavier than this i'll log these)
SQ 4x87.5-95 (nb notation for 4x95,4x92.5,4x90,4x87.5)
BS - 87.5x0 (didnt even do one rep lol)
BP - nope lol
RDL - 3x122.5 (PR), 10x97.5 (PR), 10x90

I only did front squats, wasn't planning only doing front squats, it just happened that way. Btw from now on I shall call the FS just a plain squat. To me it's the real deal, the only genuine squat. The other one is a BACK squat =  back/hamstring exercise, just an assistance exercise for the real squat.

I have to say a word about higher rep (reminder = front)  squats. I found these a wonderful exercise. After I was done squatting, I couldn't do anything else though. It fatigued all my back muscles, so much so that I could barely unrack 87.5kg (!!) for a backsquat warmup. In fact I just racked it, cos it felt so heavy on my back just walking it out. So a weight I could rep 4 times in my 4th set of squats, i couldn't even walk out of the rack on my back. Weird.

It goes on, the same thing happened with bench press. I got thru my warmups ok, but first rep of my workset and I hit the pins. It wasnt happening. Squats tired out my upper body (!) - i cudnt bench press.

RDLs were a struggle to start with, warming up, i could barely grip the bar with my 2nd warmup - 3x90kg. I somehow got 122.5x3 with good form, and then after that, the last 2 sets were real easy. I had made a conscious decision that if my grip was my weakness, then i'd try to get thru the set quickly, cos the longer it went, the more my grip wud suffer, and i'd fail not cos of my hamstrings but becos of grip. Turned out real easy when done quickly, i could have probably done another 10 reps that way!

But this changes everything. Squats, real squats are the antidote to the shitty excuse i'd been doing before. And i need to put the backsquat on the back burner, i'll do them dont worry, but just as an afterthought, i'll maintain my strength and slowly increase them over time but it's not a main priority now. The priority is to progress squats and once i get them up i'll have taught my body the right way to behave.

The darkness is finally over.

Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #212 on: August 20, 2012, 12:19:03 pm »
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Here's my argument for (F)SQ over BS

Have only been doing SQ for a short time but already

1. SQ is quickly catching up to BS, last wk I did 105x3 on SQ vs 110x2 on BS - very little to differentiate them
2. SQ form is better than BS form
3. progress in BS comes at the cost of form - squatmornings happen because legs are weak and back is much stronger, lighter backsquats do nothing for legs, and heavier backsquats are too much for legs and eaten up greedily for breakfast by much stronger back
4. SQ is remedial for squatmorning BS pattern - it fixes that and it teaches uprightness which will carry over to BS, in fact already has to some degree
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

LanceSTS

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #213 on: August 20, 2012, 03:41:33 pm »
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Here's my argument for (F)SQ over BS

Have only been doing SQ for a short time but already

1. SQ is quickly catching up to BS, last wk I did 105x3 on SQ vs 110x2 on BS - very little to differentiate them
2. SQ form is better than BS form
3. progress in BS comes at the cost of form - squatmornings happen because legs are weak and back is much stronger, lighter backsquats do nothing for legs, and heavier backsquats are too much for legs and eaten up greedily for breakfast by much stronger back
4. SQ is remedial for squatmorning BS pattern - it fixes that and it teaches uprightness which will carry over to BS, in fact already has to some degree

fwiw, youre not nearly the only one thats come to this conclusion.  As long as youre keeping balance in your legs with the hams and quads, go for it. 
Relax.

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #214 on: August 21, 2012, 02:06:30 pm »
+1
Here's my argument for (F)SQ over BS

Have only been doing SQ for a short time but already

1. SQ is quickly catching up to BS, last wk I did 105x3 on SQ vs 110x2 on BS - very little to differentiate them
2. SQ form is better than BS form
3. progress in BS comes at the cost of form - squatmornings happen because legs are weak and back is much stronger, lighter backsquats do nothing for legs, and heavier backsquats are too much for legs and eaten up greedily for breakfast by much stronger back
4. SQ is remedial for squatmorning BS pattern - it fixes that and it teaches uprightness which will carry over to BS, in fact already has to some degree

fwiw, youre not nearly the only one thats come to this conclusion.  As long as youre keeping balance in your legs with the hams and quads, go for it.  

I much appreciate your by-needs approach to training. It's suprisingly refreshing in this world of hard and fast internet experts. From stumbling thru pitfalls ive grown wary of dogmatic 'you must do X or you are pussy' thinking which doesn't take into account what's best for a given individual. And done, i'll heed your refrain to keep hamstring work. Either an extra day of RDLs to make 2x weekly - or try to setup a makeshift GHR or just keep one day, probably wednesdays for backsquats.

RDLs and Front Squats are my two special lifts. They come easier to me, form is good, and I am progressing well while enjoying my training. Compared to conventional deadlifts and LBBS backsquats it's a world of difference. I'm going to stick with them and make them my bread and butter and see how far they take me in becoming athletic.

Today was a bad diet day. I blew it both meals, meal 1 - I had a slice of cake and about a bowl of creamy chicken pasta. Then for dinner I had another slice of cake after eating dinner. It doesn't sound like much when i've written it down, but that's on top of my usual meals. It just brings home the lesson I learnt earlier today - that while cutting I have no business touching any food with excess dietary fat. Pasta is ok but that rich pasta was bad. Dietary fat will just go right back as bodyfat.  Eggs and lowfat milk fat is ok, even a teaspoon of butter for cooking is ok. What's not ok are fatty foods that do not belong in my day-to-day, nutrition as a (wannabe) athlete. Lesson learnt I hope. I want to salvage the week/month and still hit my goal of being ~82.5kg. Will need to lose a just under a kilo in 10 days.  Should be do-able.

Btw I realised I've actually looked leaner about a month and a half ago even though fatter and weighed more!  How does that work you ask? It's because I was doing a lot more cardio then. I was playing basketball regularly and that preferentially burns bellyfat for me (maybe not for everyone in general). So I've got that trick under my sleeve in my battle against bodyfat. I've also had good success in the past with keto diets - I lost the majority of my weight from a heavy ~250lb/110kg using low carb diets. Another weapon I've not yet used is using stimulants. I was hoping to get under 15% before pulling out any special tricks but we'll see how it goes, the option is always there. I'd rather save them for when I need them though. That way I still have them under my disposal to break plateaus.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 02:26:13 pm by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #215 on: August 22, 2012, 02:32:06 am »
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BW=83.25kg/183.54lb

K time to be ultra strickt for 10 days. I'll have a cheat meal or two though, family obligations, cos I haven't seen my sister in a long time and she's visiting and I don't want to be That Dieting Guy.

Have also decided to do daily cardio. Not hardcore 1hour long sweating like a pig cardio, just gentle fasted daily TM for 10 mins in the morning, and 5 mins before workouts, what I should be doing normally anyway. This doesn't stop me from doing hardcore cardio later when I'm closer to 10% -  it just means i'll be better adapted for THAT then by gradually building up to it in the mean time.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 02:33:43 am by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

LanceSTS

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #216 on: August 22, 2012, 02:47:28 am »
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Here's my argument for (F)SQ over BS

Have only been doing SQ for a short time but already

1. SQ is quickly catching up to BS, last wk I did 105x3 on SQ vs 110x2 on BS - very little to differentiate them
2. SQ form is better than BS form
3. progress in BS comes at the cost of form - squatmornings happen because legs are weak and back is much stronger, lighter backsquats do nothing for legs, and heavier backsquats are too much for legs and eaten up greedily for breakfast by much stronger back
4. SQ is remedial for squatmorning BS pattern - it fixes that and it teaches uprightness which will carry over to BS, in fact already has to some degree

fwiw, youre not nearly the only one thats come to this conclusion.  As long as youre keeping balance in your legs with the hams and quads, go for it.  

I much appreciate your by-needs approach to training. It's suprisingly refreshing in this world of hard and fast internet experts. From stumbling thru pitfalls ive grown wary of dogmatic 'you must do X or you are pussy' thinking which doesn't take into account what's best for a given individual. And done, i'll heed your refrain to keep hamstring work. Either an extra day of RDLs to make 2x weekly - or try to setup a makeshift GHR or just keep one day, probably wednesdays for backsquats.

RDLs and Front Squats are my two special lifts. They come easier to me, form is good, and I am progressing well while enjoying my training. Compared to conventional deadlifts and LBBS backsquats it's a world of difference. I'm going to stick with them and make them my bread and butter and see how far they take me in becoming athletic.

Today was a bad diet day. I blew it both meals, meal 1 - I had a slice of cake and about a bowl of creamy chicken pasta. Then for dinner I had another slice of cake after eating dinner. It doesn't sound like much when i've written it down, but that's on top of my usual meals. It just brings home the lesson I learnt earlier today - that while cutting I have no business touching any food with excess dietary fat. Pasta is ok but that rich pasta was bad. Dietary fat will just go right back as bodyfat.  Eggs and lowfat milk fat is ok, even a teaspoon of butter for cooking is ok. What's not ok are fatty foods that do not belong in my day-to-day, nutrition as a (wannabe) athlete. Lesson learnt I hope. I want to salvage the week/month and still hit my goal of being ~82.5kg. Will need to lose a just under a kilo in 10 days.  Should be do-able.

Btw I realised I've actually looked leaner about a month and a half ago even though fatter and weighed more!  How does that work you ask? It's because I was doing a lot more cardio then. I was playing basketball regularly and that preferentially burns bellyfat for me (maybe not for everyone in general). So I've got that trick under my sleeve in my battle against bodyfat. I've also had good success in the past with keto diets - I lost the majority of my weight from a heavy ~250lb/110kg using low carb diets. Another weapon I've not yet used is using stimulants. I was hoping to get under 15% before pulling out any special tricks but we'll see how it goes, the option is always there. I'd rather save them for when I need them though. That way I still have them under my disposal to break plateaus.

appreciate the kind words man. We are glad to have you here man, I see big things coming from you in the future if you keep  busting ass and training the way youve  been.  Keep up the good work in here, always like to read this log.
Relax.

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism - w9d2
« Reply #217 on: August 22, 2012, 10:11:28 am »
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Training
BS 3x105-100
OHP 4x55,3x53.5,5x52.5,5x53.5,4x52.5,5x52
Push Press 3,3,5,5,3x60 (5 is a PR - new lift)
CURLZ 3x8x39.5 (PR)
Chins  ~bwx20 deadhang
Cable curls 3x8
hanging knee raises 3x8

Really happy with BS form. I have successfully uncoached myself from LBBS. I now understand what Glenn meant when he said you just put the bar on your back and squat it, you don't need any detailed manual to learn how to do HBBS. The only struggle really is having to consciously force myself not to think of the myraid cues to go thru to do a correct LBBS - with HBBS it's just put the bar on the back at the right position, now squat. I avoid leaning fwd and thats it, the other thing I did was try to feel the weight thru the heels throughout the lift. Result? 4 nice looking reps, nice depth, upright and smooth. Only caveat was 5th rep was borderline acceptable, and 6th was a bit squatmorning. Not as bad as I used to squat morning but that's not good enough, i want to have all perfect reps. I'll keep working at it.

I couldn't understand why my OHP has been going nowhere but finally I saw why. I taped the sets and saw clearly I was leaning over too much. And then I remembered whenever I did OHP in the past, i did them barefoot, which helps keep me upright - so hopefully starting next week i'll be progressing on these.

Tried push presses after the recent discussion about them for basketball, decided I like them and will keep them after presses on weds. Much more fun than doing 3x8 with a lighter press for assistance.

appreciate the kind words man. We are glad to have you here man, I see big things coming from you in the future if you keep  busting ass and training the way youve  been.  Keep up the good work in here, always like to read this log.

 ;D :highfive:
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #218 on: August 23, 2012, 01:27:31 am »
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I've not benched "heavy" since Friday but i've had doms around my chest. This is probably a good sign. Im putting it down to squatting upright.

I think i'm close to moving from average to fitness in bodyfat

Ripped (<10%) --- Athletic (<13%) --- Fitness (<15%) --- Me --- Average (~20%) --- Fat (>20%)

I'll prob be in the "fitness"  category when I get to 82kg. And athletic at around 80kg.

On a tangent, if I were to start doing a lot of cardio, my bellyfat would go down appreciably and i'd look a lot leaner but without changing my strength/weight ratio much. But i'll do that later, even though i'm sick of being fat :/
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 02:20:30 am by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

vag

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #219 on: August 23, 2012, 04:22:54 am »
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I think i'm close to moving from average to fitness in bodyfat

Ripped (<10%) --- Athletic (<13%) --- Fitness (<15%) --- Me --- Average (~20%) --- Fat (>20%)

I'll prob be in the "fitness"  category when I get to 82kg. And athletic at around 80kg.

On a tangent, if I were to start doing a lot of cardio, my bellyfat would go down appreciably and i'd look a lot leaner but without changing my strength/weight ratio much. But i'll do that later, even though i'm sick of being fat :/

That's me too. We are the same bw, same bf, more or less same responses to diet/bulk.
But i never get unlazy enough to do my cardio. I also don't want to go below 82-83 kg, probably because i was weak and skinny all my life. So i end up cycling between 15-20% bodyfat / 85-90kg. 15% feels good for me, i could use some less belly slab but oh well...
Keep it up man , i enjoy this journal a lot, both the training progress and the insight/literature.
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #220 on: August 23, 2012, 12:00:57 pm »
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I think i'm close to moving from average to fitness in bodyfat

Ripped (<10%) --- Athletic (<13%) --- Fitness (<15%) --- Me --- Average (~20%) --- Fat (>20%)

I'll prob be in the "fitness"  category when I get to 82kg. And athletic at around 80kg.

On a tangent, if I were to start doing a lot of cardio, my bellyfat would go down appreciably and i'd look a lot leaner but without changing my strength/weight ratio much. But i'll do that later, even though i'm sick of being fat :/

That's me too. We are the same bw, same bf, more or less same responses to diet/bulk.
But i never get unlazy enough to do my cardio. I also don't want to go below 82-83 kg, probably because i was weak and skinny all my life. So i end up cycling between 15-20% bodyfat / 85-90kg. 15% feels good for me, i could use some less belly slab but oh well...
Keep it up man , i enjoy this journal a lot, both the training progress and the insight/literature.

lol I am my own worst enemy. I know if I can string together 7 days of perfect compliance to a diet i'll get MUCH leaner than i've ever been but that's proving to be difficult. I did manage a whole week this month, and saw progress but since then its 2 days on, 1 day off, then repeat, kinda going nowhere fast. I really hate cutting. I know everyone does but i've struggled a lot with it because i've been cutting for so long and the days of going 6 weeks strictly without tripping up are long gone. I can't bring up the same amount of discipline now as I did then. Maybe because it's more to do with my body fighting to keep the bodyfat than before. It's hard to say.

I actually enjoy cardio, gives me a chance to listen to some music and unwind. It just sucks when it fatigues legs which leads to bad squat workouts. Maybe I shud just swallow the temporary hit to lifts and get the cutting out of the way though.

My brother came over this weekend and for some bizarre reason he went out and bought a massive chocolate cake. He ate like a slice or two and then left the rest in the fridge for me to finish. So i've been slowly working thru it, a slice here a slice there. I was doing so well just avoiding food I shudnt eat but i haven't got the self discipline to avoid indulging the cravings when the temptation is so near.

But yeah I shud just get the cutting out of the way and stop fucking around. Starting NOW :P

Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #221 on: August 24, 2012, 03:03:48 am »
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BW=82.75kg/182.43lb

Going to post these up every friday. That way it corresponds to FS PRs (hopefully), and it gives a useful week-to-week progress report. If I drop 1 pound this week, i'll end up at around 82.5kg - if I drop 2 pounds i'll be in the low 82s. I think my goal for the month is 82.5kg or under - so i'll keep that in sight. 7 days of perfect compliance = goal achieved.

Ive fasted 19 hours, not intentionally just kind of happened, and then did 1km on the treadmill fasted. Will dial in nutrition today, and the weekend, i'll have a cheat meal probably for dinner on saturday. Pickup ball on sunday for a caloric deficit from training. That's the plan.

Also i've got a 35" waist now. I'm glad to see the waist size decreasing, even if I have to drag it along kicking and screaming just to see small changes compared to scale changes.

I must say the one thing I get right is breakfast. Whether i'm cutting or just eating normally, my breakfast is always quite good. It's the one meal i'll get 100% right 98% of the time, 365 days a year. While on this recent cut it looks something like this:

3 whole eggs, boiled or cooked in 1/2 tspoon butter
2 slices wholemeal toast (not buttered)

using the above i'll make an egg sandwich which tastes great and is nutritious.

Then i'll have a banana and another fruit, orange or what've been eating currently since they are in season, strawberries (~6 of these).

And finish it off with a whey shake in 400mL lowfat milk + 100mL fullcream milk, 1.5 scoops of whey.

That's it, pretty quick and easy and well balanced in calories and nutrients. The only way to improve it wud be to add some veg and meat, but i'm not into eating those things for breakfast.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 03:52:32 am by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

Raptor

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #222 on: August 24, 2012, 04:58:15 am »
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I find your log the hardest log to follow because you write so much in it each time (much like what Avishek is doing). So I just see how much is written and go "nah... I don't want to read all that" and just pass on. But hey, who cares about what I do, right? Just thought I'd say this.

I do respect your passion and dedication though.

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #223 on: August 24, 2012, 06:41:20 am »
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I see what you mean, i tend to go dear diary mode a bit too much even tho I try avoid it sometimes. Maybe I shud make 15 minute youtube videos instead and then you'll say, why can't you just write it down somewhere so i can read it in like 2 seconds :P Thanks though, also to vag.
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

Rix

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #224 on: August 24, 2012, 08:21:40 am »
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Your journal is one of my favorites to read. I actually like the length of your posts. They give a lot of detail and explain your interpretation of what's going on as you train. For example I struggle in a similar way with the BS and thanks to your analysis am now inclined to try FS'ing once I am able to comfortably do legs again. Keep up the hard work!