Author Topic: chasing athleticism  (Read 929624 times)

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entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism -- quad contribution and squat depth
« Reply #390 on: October 11, 2012, 12:31:56 pm »
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I figured out how to make my squats more quad dominant. Paradoxically it means cutting depth to just around parallel. This is what I was doing earlier with my front squats when I set my old PRs. Back then, I always felt the lift in the quads. That's no longer the case now that I go a lot deeper, it's all glutes, they power me out of the bottom. Now at this point if I was perfectly setup, quads would be in a good position to contribute and finish the lift. That's not happening, I think because the bar has moved fwd, so quads cant contribute from that disadvantageous position. But cut depth and the quads can be perfectly positioned to drive the bar up since there is no fwd movement. I think I will experiment with depth. I like deep squats. And I will keep doing them. But I will also look at cutting depth when wishing to make the movement more quad dominant, perhaps as an assistance.

Videos on the way to illustrate the above.

Then:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTYIc9uNVxU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTYIc9uNVxU</a>

Now:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_qDT0j638I" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_qDT0j638I</a>

« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 12:37:29 pm by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

adarqui

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Re: chasing athleticism -- progress at last
« Reply #391 on: October 11, 2012, 12:56:27 pm »
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Nice ideas there adarqui. Reminds me of batman -

Quote from: Alfred Pennyworth
Why do we fall sir? So we might learn to pick ourselves up

Of course it explains why after a day of falling off the diet, you sometimes re-double the efforts the following days in trying to get back on track. Nice.

You're right about mind playing games - my thinking was I had stalled out, that to go further in my cut i'd have to cut more calories (scary) or train more (my poor knees) or worse take supplements (while still a long way from when i should need them ~10%).

RE: fasted walking, yeah. I think it might be partially because i'm not hydrated enough and my joints aren't well lubricated or whatever? I should try walking while hydrated see if that helps but I tend to just jump into it while hungry/thirsty.

ya i notoriously under-hydrate.. i used to underhydrate on purpose too, for dunking.. lose an easy ~5lb water or so, one more inch.

but ya, when im underhydrated, i'm much more achy.. since you're doing fasted walks, down 8-16oz of some propel-like liquids.. it's basically 0 kcal so that's not a problem.


Quote
One day i'll join a gym and then i'll have a bunch of different ways to train without beating up my knees. I'd use a SSB to hit my quads hard without breaking my knees with too much high bar/front squats. I'd use a bike or rower and get my fitness levels up without the knee beatup. I might even do it over nov-dec if i'm dangerously close to being lean and strong as a reward for my hard work lol.

ssbar is great.. i no longer have to worry about my shoulders while squatting & it feels more like a front squat, which i've always loved but hated racking the weight, especially when i was really lean/skinny, would kill my bony shoulders lul.. ssbar seems to hit "core" pretty hard too, it's definitely a great investment.

can you swim good? i've never used swimming as a form to improve fitness, but it makes sense.. probably would be a great tool for people like us who have to be careful with join inflam/various aches+injuries.. i doubt i could swim good enough to get a decent workout.. i can swim fine but i've never felt tired when trying to swim 'fast+long'.





Training
FS 3Fx102.5, 1Fx102, 2x97.5, 3x95, 4x92.5, 4x92
BS 2x90, 3x95, 5x90, 6x85, 8x80 (PR), 10x75 (PR)
Sprint 5x30m (best attempt was inside 1m away from finish line at 4 seconds)
SVJx5 (best attempt hit the rim at my wrist, that might be a new PR? dunno - doesn't matter)

FS notes:
I wanted that 4x102.5 but it wasn't to be. It's defied me the last 3 attempts but one day i'll get it. Actually, next time go for 4x102. I might have a better chance of getting that than 102.5.

Form was great. YES YES. Did not hurt my knees once, i've got this shit mastered now. I'll upload a vid after coming back from sprints but things are going well for me now. No there are no PRs but they will come eventually - be patient - for now just know I have progressed in technique and depth and if I keep working hard PRs will come.

BS notes:
High rep sets are a revelation. Im using a high bar placement but without fwd knee travel of HBBS squats. So basically it's a hybrid of sitting back and high bar placement. Net result is no squat mornings, and no knee discomfort. It's the holy grail. And I go plenty deep to stimulate glutes and hams while giving adductors plenty of work as well.

For the first time I am on top of squatting. I am not going to bother with any half deadlifts (so called RDLs) or full deadlifts (so called back-snap-shit-uppers). Just plain old PC dominant backsquats and glute dominant front squats. I still don't know how to make my quads big and strong - but for now i'm nudging them along ever so gently.

brb sprinting

Sprinting & Jumping notes:
Keep in mind my running and jumping was done straight after ~40-50 reps of squatting but ..

I started off rusty but my last sprint felt great, i was quick off the ground and finished strong. Came close to hitting my 30m in under 4s goal but not yet. Maybe once i'm closer to 10% i'll crack it. Yes i will and then i'll be athletic!

Jumping, i haven't jumped in like 2 months? Feels like ages. Anyway i was surprised that even after not having jumped for so long, I could easily hit the rim at the wrist off a SVJ. That was cool. When i'm a legit under 80kg - then i'll go to the gym and test my leap properly. I'm loath to jump maximally on concrete because it bothers my ankle every time so I didn't try any max attempt RVJs or any RVJs for that matter. That makes a 30" SVJ? Cool but I want more.

So good training today. I saved the best for last, made a judgement call not to do conditioning (HIIT or SSA) today. I'll do it on teh weekend that way I wont beat up my CNS/joints too much today.


one thing that always made me uber-achy was performing jumps after squatting, unless my volume was very low (such as with the crazy high frequency ltmp/rested max stuff).

nice on that SVJ.. good sign after not jumping or 2 months.





I figured out how to make my squats more quad dominant. Paradoxically it means cutting depth to just around parallel. This is what I was doing earlier with my front squats when I set my old PRs. Back then, I always felt the lift in the quads. That's no longer the case now that I go a lot deeper, it's all glutes, they power me out of the bottom. Now at this point if I was perfectly setup, quads would be in a good position to contribute and finish the lift. That's not happening, I think because the bar has moved fwd, so quads cant contribute from that disadvantageous position. But cut depth and the quads can be perfectly positioned to drive the bar up since there is no fwd movement. I think I will experiment with depth. I like deep squats. And I will keep doing them. But I will also look at cutting depth when wishing to make the movement more quad dominant, perhaps as an assistance.

ya that's why I always half'd.. saved my hips/knees & hit my quads hard.

one other possibility is eventually investing in chains or LIGHT bands.. I used to hit quads pretty hard by going deep (light) and then really loading up the weight on those chains.. so quads would really have to work once I got above parallel.. accommodating resistance is definitely effective for improving 'the best of both worlds'.

otherwise, you could just do your deep sets and then just do one progressive workup above parallel.

PEaCE!

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism -- progress at last
« Reply #392 on: October 11, 2012, 01:53:21 pm »
0
ya i notoriously under-hydrate.. i used to underhydrate on purpose too, for dunking.. lose an easy ~5lb water or so, one more inch.

but ya, when im underhydrated, i'm much more achy.. since you're doing fasted walks, down 8-16oz of some propel-like liquids.. it's basically 0 kcal so that's not a problem.

Truth. Okay, i'll try fasted walking again but on the provision that i have plenty of water before hand. And you're right it's zero calorie, so there is no reason to avoid it. I just am not used to drinking a lot of water on an empty stomach but it's dumb to train fasted while underhydrated. Thanks for that, makes sense.

Quote
ssbar is great.. i no longer have to worry about my shoulders while squatting & it feels more like a front squat, which i've always loved but hated racking the weight, especially when i was really lean/skinny, would kill my bony shoulders lul.. ssbar seems to hit "core" pretty hard too, it's definitely a great investment.

Haha! i have the bruises on my collar bone and shoulders to prove it but thankfully Wolfs law kicked in at some point, and even tho i'm pretty bony, it doesn't hurt anymore and I never think twice about the rack. Bones adapt pretty quickly which is good! When I started i used to complain about wrists too but now they're plenty flexible and i'm happier for it. THe only complaint I had against front squats was my knees hurting. But I think I have that fixed now, i just have to go into the hole a certain way, and then it doesn't hurt knees. It's brilliant.

Quote
can you swim good? i've never used swimming as a form to improve fitness, but it makes sense.. probably would be a great tool for people like us who have to be careful with join inflam/various aches+injuries.. i doubt i could swim good enough to get a decent workout.. i can swim fine but i've never felt tired when trying to swim 'fast+long'.
Funny you should mention swimming. I learnt to swim last summer and i was thinking of getting back into it now that it's warm again. But the only problem is for me swimming is an anerobic activity lol, im not a great swimmer (probably worse now that im less of a whale than I was last summer!). But i'll get back into it, and if I adapt and it becomes aerobic, i agree its a great way to get some extra conditioning in. Good suggestion. I'll ask my homies if they wanna join me again this summer.

Quote
one thing that always made me uber-achy was performing jumps after squatting, unless my volume was very low (such as with the crazy high frequency ltmp/rested max stuff).

Yep i dont jump more than a few times on concrete, it's just a bad idea. So i did about 5 SVJS and stopped.

Quote
nice on that SVJ.. good sign after not jumping or 2 months.

cheers! can't wait to get to cut to 10% bf and take my front squat up another 5-15kg hopefully by then, and I'm hoping it will give me some nice improvements in vert.

Quote
ya that's why I always half'd.. saved my hips/knees & hit my quads hard.

Well. I don't have any probs with hips, and now i've improved my technique at the bottom, knees are ok. But the problem is i'm not a natural squatter. A natural squatter will go deep into the hole and come out strong and then eventually quads kick in which are perfectly placed at the right leverage to finish the lift. I come out of the hole strong but my positions are wrong for the best leverage for quads, so while they work hard, if my position was better i'd be able to lift more weight and with better form. But we work with what cards we've been dealt. I just see myself using a piecemeal approach to improving my athleticism now. Deep squats for glutes, hams, adductors etc. And then parellel squats to give quads the best leverage and hit them hard that way. A natural squatter would do one squat that covers all those bases, but i'm not one of those. I hate you LBSS.

Quote
one other possibility is eventually investing in chains or LIGHT bands.. I used to hit quads pretty hard by going deep (light) and then really loading up the weight on those chains.. so quads would really have to work once I got above parallel.. accommodating resistance is definitely effective for improving 'the best of both worlds'.

i have bands but not a pair of the same band. i could try to get another one though? And i never thought of using chains that way but wow that makes so much sense. At the bottom of the lift half of the chain is on the ground, and as you go higher, they yank up, giving the quads more work. Brilliant! I never knew how that all worked lol.  Thanks for the idea, esp with using a lighter weight to have perfect position coming out of the bottom, and then using extra resistance to make the latter half of the lift more challenging. That might just be what I need hmmmm.

Quote
otherwise, you could just do your deep sets and then just do one progressive workup above parallel.
Will try this next time I squat. Thank you.

Quote
PEaCE!

thanks bro. appreciate it.

Another thing that hit me, if I was using a higher heeled shoe, it wouldn't magically solve my problems I think. If anything it would make it worse. Why do you ask? I'd be leaning over more out of the bottom of the hole. Which would put me at even more disadvantageous position at the 1/2-1/3 squat position which is where quads are most active. But. If I were using the higher heel and doing parallel squats, then I could lift more weight and quads would be at a better leverage. I could be completely wrong about this since im just theorising though.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 01:59:09 pm by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

LBSS

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Re: chasing athleticism -- progress at last
« Reply #393 on: October 11, 2012, 02:02:04 pm »
0
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #394 on: October 11, 2012, 02:28:45 pm »
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 :-*

Excited for my next squat session. Get to try out adarqui's idea of throwing in a set of parallel (FRONT!!) squats. I'm gonna put 121kg (1.5xBW) on the bar and get a FS PR for a max single. It won't be deep but it will be below parallel.

:headbang:  :personal-record:

Damn, how am I am gonna get thru the next 48 hours til I can squat again :(
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #395 on: October 12, 2012, 01:10:47 am »
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Back on track!

BW: 80.3kg / 177 lb

New soreness: quads. But im not too excited about that, sprinting after a while always does that. Have also got sore lower back. Glutes and hams too. Basically everything except calves lol.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2012, 02:14:07 am by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism -- w2d6
« Reply #396 on: October 13, 2012, 11:34:20 am »
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FS 3x60, 2x80, 1x85, 1x87.5, 1x90, 1x92.5, 3x80
BS 5x60, 3x80, 2x85
WCU 2x100.5 (+17.5kg), 2x2x98 (+15kg), 4x90.5 (+7.5kg), 4x88 (+5kg), 4x85.5 (+2.5kg)
BP 2x70, 3x75, 4x72.5, 6x70, 6x65, 6x60

The plan was to get a light workout in to adjust back into 3x full body workouts. It went ok for squats. Then kind of fell apart on chinups, i went for a PR and failed the 3rd rep. Well not failed, technically I made it but I cheated the last coupla inches and I don't count those. And then I did a few other heavy maximal sets.  BP was light though as planned.

In two minds whether or not to do conditioning. We'll see what happens.

Btw does anyone know what that  mild pain/soreness is in the chest/intercostals when you unrack a bench press? It's a discomfort I get whenever i have recently front squatted or benched, kind of a lingering doms that only exhibits itself on teh unrack cos i have to stretch out to take the bar out. i hate it. it's no biggie just wish i understood it better.
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #397 on: October 14, 2012, 01:15:46 am »
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RE: banded squats

I dont have a pair of the same band but I tried with two different bands. The tension wasn't the same of course, but I got to try out banded squats all the same. The 2nd problem I had was my power rack does not have pegs for bands. I looped them around the pins but that gave insufficient tension, then I tried around the vertical support columns. That worked kind of except the whole thing about them being so far from where i am standing, meaning there was a great deal of tension pulling the bar off my back and into the back of the rack. Oops.

Chains are a lot more expensive but they'd work better for me at home. The thing is, if i'm going to spend ~$300.00 on chains I would want to try them out first. The same thing goes for SSB. I haven't found any gyms near me that have a SSB so I can't say whether it's worth buying one.

But I do have a plan on going to a gym with all this gear and testing out which of these pieces of equipment suits me well. I'll prob do it once i'm done cutting though, i dont wanna get distracted right now.
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

Raptor

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #398 on: October 14, 2012, 01:59:49 am »
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Why do you worry about all that at your strength levels?

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #399 on: October 14, 2012, 02:06:45 am »
+2
Why do you worry about all that at your strength levels?

Bands and chains? Because they help train around natural limitations. What I can deep squat is nothing for my quads. To make deep squats more challenging for quads we add resistance using bands or chains.

In heavier deep squats, I come out of the hole strong but my positions are wrong once glutes have done the job and it's time for the quads to finish the lift. If my positions were better I would be ideally placed to quarter squat the weight up but i'm out of position because coming out of the hole my glutes dont drive straight up, they drive at an angle to the vertical. A strong squatter can converts the bounce out of the hole into an ideal position to quarter squat the lift to completion. My position not being ideal, means the quads are used inefficiently. Form sucks as well.

Using chains allows for using a lighter load at the bottom, as heavy as I can lift while hitting a good position at 1/2 squat on the way up, which ensures a  position that is ideal for quads finishing the lift from there, the chains kick in and it puts a greater load on quads to challenge them. The net result is a more complete deep squat workout with perfect form throughout that is challenging for all of the muscles involved.

Also I think you need to consider the troll factor of doing banded squats with 60kg and pissing off the hardcore strength guys who care so much about what other ppl do in the gym
« Last Edit: October 15, 2012, 02:56:43 am by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

Raptor

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #400 on: October 14, 2012, 02:30:03 am »
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Troll factor = me being a fan.

+1

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #401 on: October 14, 2012, 07:52:51 am »
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next day after workout soreness
- weighted chins made abs sore
- light squats helped dissipate soreness in quads

Was watching clarence front squat after flander linked his vid in the beast thread. I noticed his knee position is fine into the hole, probably pain free which is good. Then on the way up his knees come in. That got me thinking. It could be something that just happens naturally on heavy squats. But if it is something that just happens naturally it must have a purpose. I think it allow the quads a more mechanically advantageousness position to work with. I'm not  sure if it's something I should try out myself but why not.

The other thing I noticed just now is the usual chest up cue. I am questioning it's literal value. A lot of stuff you just do because you heard it somewhere but who really knows whether they're useful or not unless you experiment.

Instead of chest up while arching my back, I tightened my core and crunch my chest down (instead of up) it flexes my massive upper abs. I find this position to be firmer and tighter. The whole thing feels super stable and rock solid. Chest up and the same stability isn't there. I could be wrong but i'll know for sure once I squat.  Maybe I should be squatting that way all along. I'll try it out tomorrow. I'm excited about this, maybe it will fix my SM tendencies.

And the third thing is, pause at the bottom of a squat, re-orient chest, crunch abs and tightened core and then drive the core up in one piece. Maybe this will help with form.

I'll try out all of these tomorrow.

Oh and i need to schedule more light and medium days, i go balls out every time and it's given me jack shit in terms of gains, will try a less hardcore approach.

Didn't really hit a caloric deficit this weekend. But it's okay, i'll just nail the coming week and finish the job. It's the last week of cutting so i'm quite motivated to get to 175lb.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 09:22:06 am by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

LBSS

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #402 on: October 14, 2012, 08:06:12 pm »
+1
Troll factor = me being a fan.

+1

+2
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

168cm

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #403 on: October 14, 2012, 11:07:37 pm »
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Quote
Also I think you need to consider the troll factor of doing banded squats with 60kg and pissing off the hardcore strength guys who care so much about what other ppl do in the gym

+100

I am in complete support of anything done in the name of annoying those halfwits.

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism -- last week of cutting
« Reply #404 on: October 15, 2012, 01:19:40 am »
0


BW: 80.2kg / 176.81 lb

Goal BW:79.3kg / 175 lb  (In exactly a week's time from now)

Here we go, the first day of the last week of the cut. I want to get to 175 so bad and if I have 100% compliance I will get there. I'm extra motivated now just to finish this thing. 175lb is a great place to end. I am hoping that last 2lb will come off entirely off the waist and take it down to high 32"s (A girl can dream).

Plan for fat loss -
+ stick to diet of course
+ daily fasted walking (20-40mins - more on rest days, less on workout days)
+ drink loads of cold water
+ stimulants before workouts
and finally the big one
+ 2 conditioning workouts this week

all of that above should surely make me loss 0.9kg in 7 days. Right. Right?
« Last Edit: October 15, 2012, 03:26:47 am by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat