Author Topic: chasing athleticism  (Read 923788 times)

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vag

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #615 on: January 11, 2013, 08:17:33 am »
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How do you go from airtime to SVJ? Trying to recall kinematic eqs while making dinner brb

http://www.adarq.org/adarq-org-special-content/complete-hangtime-to-vj/

If still curious about the theory behind it , it is based on the 'Conservation of energy'

energy at bottom = energy at top => kinetic + mecanical energy at bottom = kinetic + mechanical energy at top.

kinetic energy = 0.5 * mass * velocity ^2
mechanical energy = mass * g * height

But mechanical energy at bottom and kinetic energy at top are zero.

So the equation is 0.5 * mass * velocity^2  = mass * g * height  => 0.5  * velocity^2  = g * height [1]

The type of motion is 'constant linear acceleration. so height = velocity*time - 0.5*g*time^2 [2]

Time is the time you took to reach the top, hangtime/2.

There you go, 2 equations with 2 unknown variables ( height, velocity ), solve to height and you are there.

 :-*
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

Mikey

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #616 on: January 11, 2013, 08:45:42 am »
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Nice front squat.
Do you usually dunk on outdoor/concrete courts? Aside from the ring being higher there could be another reason why it's harder to dunk. I think your body gets used to jumping on concrete so than when you jump on hardwood it's harder coz your body isn't used to it. That's what I found even though most people say they can jump higher on hardwood (maybe that's another reason why my knees get fuked up- always jumping on concrete).
"IMO, It didn't happen if it's not on vid/official"- adarqui

It's easier to keep up than it is to catch up...

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #617 on: January 11, 2013, 08:51:58 am »
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Nice one vag, let me plug in the numbers and see what comes out. I am starting to think it's better to work with time t=t* where t* is the time taken taken to reach the peak rather than total airtime. This is because I can get the exact frame where the peak occurs - which saves having to work out which frame is where one lands which is more subject to error.

The other thing i'm not positive about is - do you take the first frame F_0 when you are airborn? Or when the heel visibly begins to rise? Not sure. Ok i've decided to take the last frame just before I'm visibly airborne. This should be t=0 I think because by the next frame i'm already in the air.

Nice front squat.
Thank you!

Quote
Do you usually dunk on outdoor/concrete courts?
Usually I don't dunk anywhere lol. But the last time I dunked was just before xmas on concrete. Before that time, I dunked on hard-wood but that's going back 6 months or so.

Quote
Aside from the ring being higher there could be another reason why it's harder to dunk.
You may well be right. Maybe I jump higher on concrete. The only way to test this is to try on another hardwood floor (the place I usually play basketball when I play) that will confirm whether it's a localised effect of my new gym. But here is the thing. When I weighed like 7-8kg more than I do right now, I could dunk on my old hardwood gym. But now that i'm lighter, stronger and more athletic, I can't dunk at all at this new gym. So that points to the new gym being the anomaly...? Unless my old gym is lower but I doubt that since it's a proper court.

Quote
I think your body gets used to jumping on concrete so than when you jump on hardwood it's harder coz your body isn't used to it. That's what I found even though most people say they can jump higher on hardwood (maybe that's another reason why my knees get fuked up- always jumping on concrete).
Maybe you're right. I will try to get to the bottom of this by trying a few more gyms. Thanks for the thoughts. It may well be the surface. Btw your experience mirrors mine - I could never jump properly on concrete because it would mess up my ankle & knees. But now I think it's because I was too heavy then (=84-85kg) and that's why it was bad for me. At 75-76kg my body doesn't mind concrete at all.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 09:57:51 am by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

vag

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #618 on: January 11, 2013, 09:01:52 am »
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Nice one vag, let me plug in the numbers and see what comes out. I am starting to think it's better to work with time t=t* where t* is the time taken taken to reach the peak rather than total airtime. This is because I can get the exact frame where the peak occurs - which saves having to work out which frame is where one lands which is more subject to error.

The other thing i'm not positive about is - do you take the first frame F_0 when you are airborn? Or when the heel visibly begins to rise? Not sure.

First frame airborn, thats when the 'constant linear acceleration' begins, which is actually decelerating with constand acceleration factor -g. When heels start to rise, you are still building up your initial velocity, you are in the previous, undetermined, motion. 2 more general reccomendations:
-For dunks don't use the full hangtime formula, hangtime is distorted ( inflated ) from rim contact. Use that only for 'clean' jumps.
-The hangtime formula calculates the distance you traveled from toes off, what we call verticall is from heels down, you need to do that correction. You need to add that difference, for me its 5''
More info here : http://www.adarq.org/strength-power-reactivity-speed-discussion/about-the-hangtime-based-vertical-jump-calculators/msg2158/#msg2158 , more analysis at the youtube video description.

:lololol:
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #619 on: January 11, 2013, 09:06:29 am »
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A lot of things go into it to make a good estimate. Lots of food for thought. Btw is it possible to do without the initial velocity? Cause how would you measure that anyway... unless you take it to be =0 but that doesn't make sense either unless you start counting from stand still (which means including time spent on the ground before airborne).

I think I got it. We should do the video analysis from the peak of the jump, to landing time. This will allow you to take initial velocity as 0 obviously. We're talking about freefall. The other thing is, it's symmetric because at the top of jump, heel is elevated, toes down - just the same way you land which you can pick up easily from video. I think this makes the most sense?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 09:12:30 am by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

vag

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #620 on: January 11, 2013, 09:23:11 am »
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The initial velocity is being thrown out of the equation because it can be expressed as a function of height and time. It was the equation [2] a few posts above. That's why you have to time from first frame airborn, to make sure that this equation is valid , while on the ground, what is happening cant be determined.
Also , the jump is never actually vertical , that induces a factor equal to the cosinus of the jumping angle ( e.g 10 degrees angle , cos = 0.984 , 1.6% error ).
I don't use the hangtime formula. It just gives you a good estimate.  I only used it when i could not determine my jumps otherwise ( tracking depth jumps performance at home ).
What i use is how higher i got above a measured rim. That can never lie.
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #621 on: January 11, 2013, 09:25:23 am »
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Understood. Thank you vag. I don't use the height above rim because i strongly suspect rim height isn't 10ft. But I should probably measure that sometime just to see what it is exactly. Would be good to get an exact measurement of vertical also but I don't currently have a way to measure it very accurately.

So I ran the numbers and my vert is coming out as a very modest ~26" (#frames=11) for both SVJ and RVJ. I found this humbling but lets take a look at how the data varies with a table:
Code: [Select]
#Frames  vertical (inches)
10   21.421762904636918
11   25.920333114610667
12   30.847338582677168
13   36.2027793088364
14   41.98665529308837

So a single frame makes a big difference in the estimate of vertical and there is easily an uncertainty of ±1 frame on the peak frame and the also ±1 frame on the landing one. Which is to say, i may still have a 30" but it's hard to say from this analysis. Suppose if I got my hands on a camera which can take a higher fps than 30 then i'll be able to get a better measurement.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 10:56:12 am by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

vag

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #622 on: January 11, 2013, 01:34:36 pm »
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Well it looks like you are getting exactly a clean hand above rim at that SVJ.  For your height i would guess a 9'' hand. With your 98'' reach that equals to 31'' of vert if we assume the rim is legit 10'. Calculator gives 26'' so there you go , 5'' correction according to my theory, verified. Measure your flatfooted vs up-on-toes-reach and i bet you will find it at 5''.
Sorry for hijacking your journal, if you find this annoying let me know so i delete the posts and take it to the hangtime thread.
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism -- Day#6/45 to single digit bf%
« Reply #623 on: January 11, 2013, 11:16:22 pm »
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98" reach (but that's barefoot, not that I wear shoes with a heel though), 8" hand and yup hit my wrist on the SVJ - so you think 30" iff it's a 10ft rim? That's interesting. Only thing left to do is measure rim height. Don't mind the posts, it's good stuff but if you like to cross post to the hangtime thread as well, feel free so others may find the info easier.

Another SVJ video from earlier in the week, I think I jumped higher there.

I slowed it down and dragged it out to 5s by using a frame rate of 5fps since it was only 1s long to start with to aid ease of watching. I trust you guys to know well intuitively what a vertical is by looking at the video. Does that look like 26" or am I in the 30s? Any estimates welcome.

We haven't established rim height yet but my suspicion is it's a lot higher than 10ft. Thanks again.

I woke up today with wicked lower body doms. Hamstrings, inner thighs, lower back - all torched. Feels good man.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 03:05:56 am by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

vag

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #624 on: January 12, 2013, 05:58:34 am »
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The dunk attempt SVJ is lower but it doesn't count as the ball in the hands ruins the hands windup and the highest reach at peak. Unless we are talking about kingfish but he is not human anyway.
Let's stick to the 1st SVJ video. Around 30'' is my estimation, and i am arrogant enough to say i am the certified eye-vertec of adarq.org!  :P
Your reach is probably ~99'' in shoes, so wrist at 10' rim is 29''. Now this rim could be a bit lower OR a bit higher , it looks legit compared to your height. Also you won't find gym rims more than 2'' different than 10', you can tell from the first look if they are higher than 10'2'' or lower than 9'10''. So my estimation is 29'', no way lower than 27'', no way higher than 31''.
:highfive:
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism -- Day#7/45 to single digit bf%
« Reply #625 on: January 13, 2013, 12:30:08 am »
0
The dunk attempt SVJ is lower but it doesn't count as the ball in the hands ruins the hands windup and the highest reach at peak. Unless we are talking about kingfish but he is not human anyway.
Let's stick to the 1st SVJ video. Around 30'' is my estimation, and i am arrogant enough to say i am the certified eye-vertec of adarq.org! :P
Your reach is probably ~99'' in shoes, so wrist at 10' rim is 29''. Now this rim could be a bit lower OR a bit higher , it looks legit compared to your height. Also you won't find gym rims more than 2'' different than 10', you can tell from the first look if they are higher than 10'2'' or lower than 9'10''. So my estimation is 29'', no way lower than 27'', no way higher than 31''.
:highfive:


Made me laugh out loud..   :highfive:

I'll take 30" thank you very much. I'm hoping when I wrap up this cut and stop being on a caloric deficit (=catabolik state) i'll get a few inches on top of this, and I can then work hard on strength & jumping to get to 36". Yes that might be ambitious but a girl can dream. Actually I'd rather break 4s on my short sprint goal than jump 36" in terms of pure athleticism but they're probably connected - and when i'm athletic enough to do one, i'll probably be close to the otehr and vice versa.

So into the last day of the first week of the cut. So far so good, only felt hungry ONE time which happened yesterday, and I ate some fruit,  and it went away. Funny how that works, it's like the body said, oh you gave me some fibre and something for the sweet tooth? Good i'm full now, step away from the icecream and cookies, situation normal.
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism -- Day#8/45 to single digit bf%
« Reply #626 on: January 14, 2013, 07:32:40 am »
+1
Training
FS 1x90, 1x100, 4x105 (PR), 4x97.5, 5x90
BS 3x90, 6x97.5, 6x92.5
DBBP 3x22.5, 8x27.5 (PR), 8x25, 10x20
DIPZ 3x15 (PR- b00m!)
JUMPZ 10 SVJ, 5 RVJ (PR - first double hand SVJ dunks)

BW: ?? (I'd say ~76kg or so but I've not been weighing myself)

FS notes:
So here is the thing, at the gym I can only go up in 2.5kg jumps since I don't have my 1/2kg plates from home. So I had to jump to 105 from my 102.5kg PR from last week. I got 4 reps!! I could have ground out an ugly 5th but it's only monday! So i kept a rep in the tanky and will go for it on weds or friday, whichever feels rite. I was surprised because I thought i would be really weak.

Now if you're taking notes you'd realise I have to work super hard to get a 1/2kg pr on front squats. And today I just got a 2.5kg improvement since last week, wtf? I think it's the trap bar dl i did last week. They've beefed up my lower back some, which has helped with my front squat. This tells me what I already suspected, my back is a weak point, i should be trap bar deadlifting over 4 plates with my long ass arms (esp since i've done 170kgx5 with conventional dl a few years bak when i used to dl).
BS notes:
Just putting in the werk. I wanted to go for another set but I thought fuck it i'm gonna save my legs for jumping.

Jump notes:
Got my first double hand SVJ dunks today. Feels good man. I guess i was just too heavy/fatigued last week? I could dunk today even after doing 25 odd squats before hand. Once my fat ass is down to 72kg i'll be jumping much higher... just gotta be faithful to my diet now.

I have video but it was soo  dark i doubt it will work once youtube runs its recompression algorithms over my footage. we'll see if it looks ok i'll update the post.

^ i ran a brightness filter thru the original footage which was too dark. if you watch either video, be sure to put it on 480p setting first because otherwise it pixellates too much.


I wanted to do weighted chins but the db bp & dipz killed my triceps and i can't do chinups. so note to self, make sure to do them on wednesday.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 03:06:26 am by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

Raptor

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #627 on: January 14, 2013, 11:34:29 am »
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You should've added a noise reduction filter too :P

Coges

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #628 on: January 14, 2013, 05:34:26 pm »
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Congrats on the SVJ dunks. You make it look so easy.
"Train as hard as possible, as often as possible, while staying as fresh as possible"
- Zatsiorsky

entropy

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Re: chasing athleticism -- Day#9/45 to single digit bf%
« Reply #629 on: January 14, 2013, 11:50:23 pm »
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You should've added a noise reduction filter too :P

lol, did you take a look at the original?! it's a world of a difference, any better and i'd have to sneak into the CSI media lab ;) But yea i'll have a look to see if there is a NR filter around would be cool if it worked.

Congrats on the SVJ dunks. You make it look so easy.

thanks mate. it's always been a dream of mine, hopefully ive got a lot more potential left in me yet.

BW:76.3kg .. right on track



I am due for a scale whoosh I think, since i've been on the wagon for 8 days and weight as more or less held steady. I suppose I could do more conditioning too.
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat