Author Topic: chasing reactivity  (Read 30190 times)

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Merrick

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Re: chasing reactivity
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2015, 03:34:26 pm »
+3
Thanks for that! That makes a lot of sense. Single leg bounding, dont think ive ever done anything quite like that before, closest would be sprints but i havent done those in years (Bc they'd wreck my legs and i couldnt squat normally afterward and i put squats above everythign else). I'm going to look up SL boundings for sure. Thanks so much.

edit, is this the link? Also found this one.

Yes the second link "some jump plyo explosive strength workouts".  Lance probably has the greatest experience training high level SL jumpers and I myself have never seen such improvements in my SL jump from any exercise other than SL Bounding.  Tucks and Pogos pale in comparison to the carryover to the SL Jump compared to bounds. 

If I were you, I'd really focus on sub-max sl bounding since you've never done them before and actually do some weight room work for the glutes and hamstrings until you get a very good hip dominant movement pattern which is going to take stress off your knees and utilize your hips more, as well as getting adequate glute activation when bounding. 

The single fastest way to make initial improvements to the SL jump imo is to really maximize mobility so that you are using the proper posture and recruitment patterns which is essential in such a high speed movement like the SL jump.  This goes hand in hand with becoming very hip dominant with strong glute activation is your movements.

Once this is set (you should notice sl jump improvements from this alone), you just focus on progressing bounding and watch your SL jump take off.  Of course the SL bounding will eventually require weight room work to further advance in them, but you get the idea.

vag

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Re: chasing reactivity
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2015, 09:37:10 am »
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Strong posts merrick!

Here is an article from kellyb, saying the same things more or less: http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/unilateraljump.html
woot

maxent

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Re: chasing reactivity
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2015, 08:56:04 am »
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So i skipped lifting before bball training. I've achieved a milestone,  I've lost my addiction to weights and i feel guilt free and unburdened.

 I planned on doing my SL specific workout at the basketball court instead of my usual lifting  session but when i got there i realised i had no idea how to do bounds. So i did some of the MRs and pogos and left the rest for later. After bball, I freestyled sl bounds, i have no idea whether what i did actually corresponds to the proper slbounds - took video, perhaps that will help.. heh. Also i did these bounds after bball training - which i dont think is a good idea, it's probably safer to do it when fresher - i was too fatigued by the end of bball. Still at my stage of development it's submax.

So what i ended up doing was SL bounds 6 rounds per leg, then switch over. For 3 sets total per leg. Im not sure if i'm suppposed to use Lance's template straight away or build up to it? In any case i'd like to be more prepared for next time and actually learn how to do these movements right and how to program them before going further.

Afterwards, im doing weighted crunches:
WCrunch 30x20 (PR), 20x35 (LPR), 20x40 (LPR)
« Last Edit: July 14, 2015, 10:45:46 am by maxent »
Making a new strength setpoint of 75/100/150 on OHP/BP/BS.

Merrick

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Re: chasing reactivity
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2015, 11:16:53 am »
+1
So i skipped lifting before bball training. I've achieved a milestone,  I've lost my addiction to weights and i feel guilt free and unburdened.

 I planned on doing my SL specific workout at the basketball court instead of my usual lifting  session but when i got there i realised i had no idea how to do bounds. So i did some of the MRs and pogos and left the rest for later. After bball, I freestyled sl bounds, i have no idea whether what i did actually corresponds to the proper slbounds - took video, perhaps that will help.. heh. Also i did these bounds after bball training - which i dont think is a good idea, it's probably safer to do it when fresher - i was too fatigued by the end of bball. Still at my stage of development it's submax.

So what i ended up doing was SL bounds 6 rounds per leg, then switch over. For 3 sets total per leg. Im not sure if i'm suppposed to use Lance's template straight away or build up to it? In any case i'd like to be more prepared for next time and actually learn how to do these movements right and how to program them before going further.


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfTs066M1SA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfTs066M1SA</a>

Afterwards, im doing weighted crunches:
WCrunch 30x20 (PR), 20x35 (LPR), 20x40 (LPR)

Lance's template IS the beginning progression to bounding.  Of course you just don't go max effort on the intense variations (bounds for max height/distance) until you master them sub-maximally.  I suggest you read through that entire thread.  It has lots of great information.  Don't waste time doing bounds unless you know what you're aiming for, so really read that thread and know what to do and start them. 

Also I can't tell what shoes you're wearing, but I wouldn't wear bball shoes for bounding.  Wear the track shoes or any other minimalist shoes that allow full mobility of the foot/ankle
« Last Edit: July 05, 2015, 11:18:29 am by Merrick »

maxent

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Re: chasing reactivity
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2015, 11:23:47 am »
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I did start reading the thread on the weekend but i lose hope when people will ask horrible questions like can I do these on the treadmill or bleachers etc and take the discussion offtopic. Lol. I will read it for weds workout which is days away!

And you're absolutely right about shoes, i realised i didnt wanna use bball shoes on these again. My running shoes are so much better for jumping. Next time i'll take both pairs and use the right one.
Making a new strength setpoint of 75/100/150 on OHP/BP/BS.

Merrick

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Re: chasing reactivity
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2015, 02:12:27 pm »
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I did start reading the thread on the weekend but i lose hope when people will ask horrible questions like can I do these on the treadmill or bleachers etc and take the discussion offtopic. Lol. I will read it for weds workout which is days away!

And you're absolutely right about shoes, i realised i didnt wanna use bball shoes on these again. My running shoes are so much better for jumping. Next time i'll take both pairs and use the right one.

Well the thread IS in Lance's blog, so even all those other random 'noob' questions are all answered by Lance so there is good knowledge in there.  It's really a gold mine for single leg bounding.  The thread never goes off topic btw.  Just discusses it from multiple angles.  I'll just say it one more time, and leave you alone.  I REALLY advise you read the entire thread and really understand the dynamics of single leg bounding training if you're serious about improving your sl jump

BTW, your bounds look ok.  It's expected for everyone's bounds to look 'bad' the first time they do it, no matter how strong and powerful they are to begin with
« Last Edit: July 05, 2015, 02:14:20 pm by Merrick »

acole14

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Re: chasing reactivity
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2015, 10:37:28 pm »
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So i skipped lifting before bball training. I've achieved a milestone,  I've lost my addiction to weights and i feel guilt free and unburdened.

 I planned on doing my SL specific workout at the basketball court instead of my usual lifting  session but when i got there i realised i had no idea how to do bounds. So i did some of the MRs and pogos and left the rest for later. After bball, I freestyled sl bounds, i have no idea whether what i did actually corresponds to the proper slbounds - took video, perhaps that will help.. heh. Also i did these bounds after bball training - which i dont think is a good idea, it's probably safer to do it when fresher - i was too fatigued by the end of bball. Still at my stage of development it's submax.

So what i ended up doing was SL bounds 6 rounds per leg, then switch over. For 3 sets total per leg. Im not sure if i'm suppposed to use Lance's template straight away or build up to it? In any case i'd like to be more prepared for next time and actually learn how to do these movements right and how to program them before going further.


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfTs066M1SA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfTs066M1SA</a>

Afterwards, im doing weighted crunches:
WCrunch 30x20 (PR), 20x35 (LPR), 20x40 (LPR)

One thing you can start doing straight away is really lift and cycle the leg better - kick the glutes on each rep. My coach calls them cycle hops because you really just cycle the bounding leg through. This will help you stay more upright and land flat-footed (your landing looks good) and also get more glute and hamstring activation.

maxent

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Re: chasing reactivity
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2015, 09:47:06 am »
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The folllowing day after my first SLB session i report back awesome soreness in hamstrings and glutes. Interesting. Also i would like to point out that my glutes have simply blown up from all the glute band raises ive been doing in lieu of the injury forced sabatical from lifting. Maybe i never really needed weights in the first place. I have bigger glutes now and i havent squatted heavy since feb! My ass is still pretty fat though but im talking about the muscular development of the glutes.

Really looking forward to my next session of SLBs .. with the advice given by acole and merrick. ima take and wear the right shoes and do them while fresh and heeding the form suggestions.

Much down the track, I wonder if there will be carry over if i ever go back to training/being a DL jumper again? Maybe, i feel like all the training i did, i never really developed the lower leg muscular which probably limited my athleticism. Wonder if these bounds have prob done more for my leg stiffness than anything i did with a barbell in the past.

Hmm another thing i was wondering about.. should i be doing sprints?


There are a ton of terrible jump training/plyo workouts all over the web, and many people asking questions on how to set up jump specific workouts.  Some of these templates will be complexes with strength/power exercises, some will be jump specific training to be done either before strength training, or on a different day altogether. 


METRICS

(we called this one "metrics" in college, short for plyometrics obviously, even though one could argue it contains exercises that are not extremely intense plyometrics,  but it sounds cool and Im not gonna change something with a cool sounding name, so it will remain "metrics". ) very simple template, very effective.


dynamic warm up, short sprint starts, leg swings complex (front to back 10x, side to side 10x, knee drives front to back 10x)

Use a distance of ~30-35 yards, a basketball court works well, football field, track, etc.


I. DOUBLE LEG BOUNDS FOR MAX SPEED- these are very sub max jumps, focus on quick ground contacts and being light on the feet.  Dont jump high, dont jump far, YET. Get off the ground, AS FAST AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE.

II. SINGLE LEG BOUNDS FOR MAX SPEED- same as above, but single leg bounding, same leg, quick, snappy, ground contact, not high, not far, "the ground is hot" cue.  Head should stay on the same plane throughout the set.



INTENSIVE JUMPS



1a. DOUBLE LEG BOUNDS FOR DISTANCE- basically continuous broad jumps, without the focus on reaching for the landing.  Dont jump so far that you have to stop and re gather for the next bound.

1b. DOUBLE LEG BOUNDS FOR HEIGHT- two leg bounds, with a focus on height rather than distance.  You want to still have plenty of forward momentum, but focus on going UP rather than OUT. You will obviously have more ground contacts on these than the previous set.

2a. SINGLE LEG BOUNDS FOR DISTANCE- basic single leg bounding (same leg), focus on distance and forward speed rather than height attained.  Head should stay basically the same level throughout the set.

2b.  SINGLE LEG BOUNDS FOR HEIGHT- single leg bounding for max HEIGHT, dont worry about distance, try to achieve as much time in the air as possible every bound. 

cool down, myofascial release, pnf stretch


NOTES:  You can repeat the workout (parts 1a-2b), up to 3 times each, but start out with ONCE.  IF YOU NOTICE A DROP OFF IN PERFORMANCE, STOP.  The better you get at bounding and the more you perform this workout, the higher your explosive work capacity gets, and the more rounds you can handle.

ALWAYS, do 1a. or 2a., BEFORE doing the B version, the bounding for DISTANCE increases hip involvement and recruitment in the bounds, and will make the B version much more powerful, explosive, and smooth.  There is no need to go back and do I and II after you have already completed a full cycle of the bounds.  Be sure to start out slowly and progress the intensity, soon you will be able to go for max distance and max height, but do a few sessions first to build the work capacity and adequately prepare the body. 

So lets see if i got this straight. I do two "blocks" - METRICS and "INTENSE JUMPS" - do both of these blocks take place in the same workout? Or do you do the first one for a while (say 12 weeks) then do the 2nd block? Or is it meant to be combined into a single workout that does METRICS and then INTENSE JUMPS?

Making a new strength setpoint of 75/100/150 on OHP/BP/BS.

Merrick

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Re: chasing reactivity
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2015, 12:13:20 pm »
+2
lol "metrics" is just the name he uses for "plyometrics"... 

You do all of them in the SAME workout.  You do 1-3 sets of the SL bounds for SPEED first.  These bounds are essentially the same thing acole is talking about.  They are submax bounds where you really learn to bound by focusing on quick ground contacts and really cycling the leg in the air.

After you do 1-3 sets (depending on your work capacity), you then do the INTENSIVE JUMPS..  So you do 1 set of SL bounds for max distance, followed by 1 set of SL Bounds for max height (complex sets).  That is 1 ROUND of intense jumps.  After you do 1 round, you add more rounds until you notice performance drop off.

Sprints can help and is usually used BEFORE bounds as a potentiation/warm up exercise (you would know if you read the whole thread  ;D

So if you can eventually work up to the following workout, you'd be at a pretty good place explosive work capacity wise:

1) 20~30 yd sprints x 3-5
2) SL bounds for SPEED x 2-3 sets
3) SL bounds for distance + SL bounds for height COMPLEX x 3 rounds

1,2 volume should be controlled so that you're not fatigued by the time you get to 3.  3 is the most important part and you wanna be potentiated by then, not fatigued.

Once you can do that without much performance drop off, you just keep progressing them in intensity.  For example, if you can do them smoothly, you start adding a run-in at the start to add more speed to the intense jumps
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 12:16:34 pm by Merrick »

maxent

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Re: chasing reactivity
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2015, 11:02:22 am »
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^thanks for clarifying - i opend your post on my phone before the workout and went through the drill!
Making a new strength setpoint of 75/100/150 on OHP/BP/BS.

maxent

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Re: chasing reactivity
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2015, 12:08:50 pm »
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5 Sprints
3xSLBfS
3xSLBfD+SLBfH
Basketball game
Basketball shooting practice after the game

WCrunch 3x20x50(PR)
CND - 3km @ 23mins (i think. maybe 23:30 :/ anyway, i should be doing 3km in <20 mins, 3x a week)

SLB notes:
Started with 1 round of intense. Will add one round nexst time. edit, come to think of it, no, i did all 3, cauase i felt 1 was too little work..

How is my fitness so shit. ugh. i need to spend some hours on the treadmill. No excuses. At least an hour a week.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 03:27:58 pm by maxent »
Making a new strength setpoint of 75/100/150 on OHP/BP/BS.

ChrisM

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Re: chasing reactivity
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2015, 02:04:10 pm »
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Skip the treadmill....run suicides.
Insert motivational quote here...

maxent

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Re: chasing reactivity
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2015, 02:19:26 pm »
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Skip the treadmill....run suicides.

I dont have an aerobic base yet. Maybe i havent had one in 10 year when i lived at university and had to run to the basketball stadium 2-3km away, play a game, then jog back.

Right now have to put in the work first before i move on to basketball specific conditioning. This is something i have neglected forever but now i have no excuse to skip cardio since i have no squats (performance) to worry about. When ive got an aerobic base, i'll add in intervals, suicides, all that basketball specific stuff..
Making a new strength setpoint of 75/100/150 on OHP/BP/BS.

maxent

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Re: chasing reactivity
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2015, 02:46:26 pm »
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Ok shit i thought there was something missing, reading Lance's post, he also had DLBs in there.. doh. So next time i'll do the following:

LANCE TEMPLATE FOR REACTIVITY
5x25m sprints (bball court length)
DLBfS
SLBfS

DLBfD + DLBfH
SLBfD + SLBfH

question for DLBfS and SLBfs - is that a complex too? or seperate?
Making a new strength setpoint of 75/100/150 on OHP/BP/BS.

Merrick

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Re: chasing reactivity
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2015, 03:28:54 pm »
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Ok shit i thought there was something missing, reading Lance's post, he also had DLBs in there.. doh. So next time i'll do the following:

LANCE TEMPLATE FOR REACTIVITY
5x25m sprints (bball court length)
DLBfS
SLBfS

DLBfD + DLBfH
SLBfD + SLBfH

question for DLBfS and SLBfs - is that a complex too? or seperate?

No...  You do either the double leg version in the workout, or the single leg version.  You don't combine the 2 in 1 workout.  If you're trying to improve your single leg jump, just keep doing what you did with just SL bounds.

Also I agree with ChrisM... Treadmill work can help but it's really inefficient, training wise + time wise for someone trying to improve athleticism.  Anaerobic endurance and aerobic endurance is different.  Treadmill work/ cardio work can help for sure, but doing suicides starting now can only help.  They're nothing crazy that you need to "work up" to it.  You work at your capacity and it will only improve by actually doing them.

One last little note just to think about if you care:  Lance's template is not JUST for "reactivity".  Singe leg jumping is not just a "reactive" movement.  There is still significant amount of max strength and explosive strength involved.  IMO, judging by the title of this thread and your constant use of the work "reactivity", this mindset will hold you back.  Don't neglect other aspects of strength

« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 03:31:05 pm by Merrick »