Author Topic: FP's log  (Read 301876 times)

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T0ddday

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Re: FP's log
« Reply #360 on: August 10, 2016, 11:43:47 pm »
+2
Lol, sorry I do disagree on both points...

I dunno about long distances being ineffective. It makes sense to me that if you do 30 min +of nonstop running your body would adjust in different ways than if you ran intervals. For example lung efficiency and muscle capillarization are qualities that I have heard get much more developed with long distance running. Feel free to disagree, the source on most of this is body recomp articles that might have been unreliable

I am not arguing that long distances allow you to adapt in ways that shorter distances do not...  I am arguing that long distances are not effective for giving you more sports specific endurance.  All sports that are not races are primarily anaerobic.  And track interval work has more than a surplus of aerobic challenge relative to any team sport.  The biggest problem with long distance running and team sports is long distances do not involve acceleration. Running at constant steady pace is just not a skill team athletes need.  The more we learn the more we learn that the body is more specific than we thought...  That's why I am making the point that intervals are better than long distance but I can't tell the basketball player who refuses to sprint and gets in shape on a basketball court that he might not be onto something... 

Long distance running involves maintaining a speed through moderate aerobic respiration - when we play sports we either recovery with massively inefficient breathes or we sprint...  Yes there is an intersection between anerobic and aerobic - but people who play team sports NEVER experience it and for good reason...  If you have ever ran the 400m you know what it feels like to add H+ to lactate (ie ask for a lot out of your aerobic system after you taxed your anaerobic system)... It's complete shutdown and an inability to do anything...  People who play team sports do not do this and for good reason...

As far as body composition... I don't know.  I know body builders that swear by slow steady cardio to get insanely ripped...  They are probably right... I have gotten to 5% bodyfat with diet and interval work but they would probably still call me fat...  It could be the key to losing fat after your already incredibly lean...  But it's not the key for getting in "shape" for team sports.   When it comes to team sports shape - you gotta accelerate...

Quote
It does kind of suck that prolonged aerobic training will drain speed if you don't up your speed training. That's probably my main concern

I think that this very plausible argument has now been failed to be supported for long enough that it's getting toward myth level.  Everything drains your speed if you do it instead of speed training...  But does long distance running actually make you slower?  I don't by it.  I think we should think of them as being just two very distinct things.   I wish Andrew had run some sprint times before he started long distance running so he could incorporate it back and hit PRs despite running long distances...  His dunking resurgence is pretty cool as well...   I know lots of sprinters who run the 100/200/400/800.  Some guys are good at shorter distance, some guys good at longer distances.  Some guys good at both.  Any high-level athlete good at shorter distances is gonna be good at it and have better endurance at it...   For example I trained with a 400/800 guy who ran in the 100/200/400/800 times of 11.X/23.X/48.X/1:48.  I'm incredibly slow at distance running and at the time probably was running about 10.6/22.5/51.X/2:10... In training I would naturally fall far off in the 400 and 800 but I coast by in the 100/200.   One time we did a drill where we ran 250m, rested for 10 seconds, and ran the last 150m.  Despite the fact that this guy would always be way ahead of me in 400's at practice (he would get near 50 while I was near 60) - I could easily win both reps.  They were hard... But harder for him than me...  I was in shape for my race...    Despite being way better than me at the 400m, 10 seconds was all it took to remove his advantage completely...  The lack of carryover is both why long-distance running isn't useful for sports endurance AND why it's not bad for sports speed...    When get good at what you train for...   That guy ran endurance and didn't train for or have speed... However, others have both...  There are freaking bodybuilders who do marathons...  It's not an ideal combo but if you love endurance running you don't have to avoid it for fear of getting slow...  Getting slow happens from not training for speed - not also training for something completely different...

FP

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Re: FP's log
« Reply #361 on: August 11, 2016, 12:02:59 am »
0

Long distance running involves maintaining a speed through moderate aerobic respiration - when we play sports we either recovery with massively inefficient breathes or we sprint...  Yes there is an intersection between anerobic and aerobic - but people who play team sports NEVER experience it and for good reason...  If you have ever ran the 400m you know what it feels like to add H+ to lactate (ie ask for a lot out of your aerobic system after you taxed your anaerobic system)... It's complete shutdown and an inability to do anything...  People who play team sports do not do this and for good reason...

I feel like this happens pretty frequently in frisbee. So-called "marathon points" that can last 10+ minutes where a lot of it is submax running followed by sprinting followed by more low intensity sort of running. If I play defense I can't help it if my defender starts variations jogging and cutting continuously. The times I get beat are exactly the sort of situation you mentioned.

So one solution is not to get to that point - know my anaerobic system limits. But the aerobic system takes a lot of consistent training to develop.

Tbh aerobic training is pretty boring and I dislike doing it

T0ddday

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Re: FP's log
« Reply #362 on: August 11, 2016, 03:57:46 am »
+3

Long distance running involves maintaining a speed through moderate aerobic respiration - when we play sports we either recovery with massively inefficient breathes or we sprint...  Yes there is an intersection between anerobic and aerobic - but people who play team sports NEVER experience it and for good reason...  If you have ever ran the 400m you know what it feels like to add H+ to lactate (ie ask for a lot out of your aerobic system after you taxed your anaerobic system)... It's complete shutdown and an inability to do anything...  People who play team sports do not do this and for good reason...

I feel like this happens pretty frequently in frisbee. So-called "marathon points" that can last 10+ minutes where a lot of it is submax running followed by sprinting followed by more low intensity sort of running. If I play defense I can't help it if my defender starts variations jogging and cutting continuously. The times I get beat are exactly the sort of situation you mentioned.

So one solution is not to get to that point - know my anaerobic system limits. But the aerobic system takes a lot of consistent training to develop.

Tbh aerobic training is pretty boring and I dislike doing it

I will concede that I am not an expert in frisbee.  But a friend played for Seattle's team (the sockeye) and I got to watch some games and from what I saw there are breaks every score, and for the  most part when a frisbee is caught the man defending him goes nuts but players execute timed sprints to get open - not consistent jogs.

I know it feels like your aerobic system needs work (it and it does) but trust me your problem won't be solved by "aerobic training".   Like I said Frisbee isn't as popular or well studied but one sport that is is soccer and even the players who run the most - the midfielders - are using primarily their anerobic capacity.  There are a million research papers about soccer players that show that repeated sprints build up VO2 max and all aerobic endurance more than sufficiently...

You say you hate long runs - but have you ever gotten in anaerobic shape?   It's a million times harder.  It sucks.  Throwing up between reps is not fun.  I'm one of the worst runners you will ever meet and I would way rather jog a few miles than do real anaerobic conditioning - but if I wanted to be as good as possible in frisbee I would do it because long runs simply don't help much.   What is being in shape at the end of the match?  Is it the player on offense is jogging at a 8 minute mile pace and you are just too slow?  Or is it that he takes one final run and sprints away and you just don't have your speed at this point to accelerate and catch him?  I think it's the latter...

Take the challenge.  Do two things.  Both are in your capability.  Run 400m in under 55 seconds.  One lap.  Do it.  It doesn't take speed but it takes work.  Also do the follow.  10 reps of 150 meters.  Start on the curve, finish at the end of the straight - walk quickly for half a turn and get down and do 5 pushups and start from pushup position on your next rep.   Do 10 reps, keep all reps under 25 seconds.  Finish the workout in less than 10 minutes - that means only about 20 seconds for the quick walk/jog between reps and about 10 seconds for your pushups.  Then rest 10-20 minutes.  Repeat it.  I will promise you that if you achieve those two goals you will be the fittest guy on your team.  Nobody will question your fitness and you will have juice for the entire game.  But its gonna suck far more than long runs...

LBSS

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Re: FP's log
« Reply #363 on: August 11, 2016, 08:38:00 am »
+1
the 150 repeat workout sounds like hell on earth.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

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adarqui

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Re: FP's log
« Reply #364 on: August 14, 2016, 02:36:21 am »
0
read this:

Quote
Take the challenge.  Do two things.  Both are in your capability.  Run 400m in under 55 seconds.  One lap.  Do it.  It doesn't take speed but it takes work.  Also do the follow.  10 reps of 150 meters.  Start on the curve, finish at the end of the straight - walk quickly for half a turn and get down and do 5 pushups and start from pushup position on your next rep.   Do 10 reps, keep all reps under 25 seconds.  Finish the workout in less than 10 minutes - that means only about 20 seconds for the quick walk/jog between reps and about 10 seconds for your pushups.  Then rest 10-20 minutes.  Repeat it.  I will promise you that if you achieve those two goals you will be the fittest guy on your team.  Nobody will question your fitness and you will have juice for the entire game.  But its gonna suck far more than long runs...

then read this:

the 150 repeat workout sounds like hell on earth.

then lmfao'd.



and ya to t0ddday's point.. you could have the most beast aerobic base on the planet.. but if your anaerobic base isn't up to par, repeated sprints are going to wreck you.

if you don't want to do anything "specifically planned", jog + sprint is pretty effective.. jog light (recovery jog), sprint some distance (mix it up), repeat for several miles.. it's pretty fun, but still intense.

i've done that on quite a few occasions.. even just 3 miles seems pretty effective and grueling.

FP

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Re: FP's log
« Reply #365 on: August 16, 2016, 05:08:57 pm »
+1
Goal Progress:

Anaerobic conditioning: 1/10 only a single session where I went too hard in the 400 and ended after 3 150's cause i set unrealistic time goals, then I ran another slightly submax 400m in 1:05. Other 2 times I went to the school track it was being used by the school. Just not good at motivating myself to do these.

Throws: 9/10 Throwing and taking notes on throws every day, only missed a single day of throwing since my last post.

Cutting: 6/10 I'm sitting at 181.8 lbs right now. I was 186 a few days ago but inconsistent water weight. I will need a couple of days to carb bulk before the tourney, but I think 178 is doable by then. If i can convinvce myself to go hard on these intervals, 175 might even be achievable.

Jumps/Layouts: 3/10 Did a session on SLRVJ's off both legs: RSLRVJ needs a couple sessions of work at least. SVJ at 30.5"! I'm a little worried about training high layouts with or without a slip N slide. I injured my rotator cuff on one of these in game like a month ago so I've been hesitant about doing it. Definitely need to do at least 2 jump sessions and 2 layout sessions.

Will I get better results if I peak my bounciness or my anaerobic endurance? No matter what I have to do more flexibility sessions cause my groin and hip flexors and hamstrings especially get tight fast. I think my frequent rounded back sitting lifestyle contributes to this. Do you guys think static stretching carries over to dynamic flexibility?

Also does having lateral and medial hamstring tightness discrepancies bad? I think my medial hamstrings are really tight. Check out the knee drive on this jump:



I've got 10 days left.

adarqui

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Re: FP's log
« Reply #366 on: August 18, 2016, 03:24:15 am »
0
Goal Progress:

Anaerobic conditioning: 1/10 only a single session where I went too hard in the 400 and ended after 3 150's cause i set unrealistic time goals, then I ran another slightly submax 400m in 1:05. Other 2 times I went to the school track it was being used by the school. Just not good at motivating myself to do these.

Throws: 9/10 Throwing and taking notes on throws every day, only missed a single day of throwing since my last post.

Cutting: 6/10 I'm sitting at 181.8 lbs right now. I was 186 a few days ago but inconsistent water weight. I will need a couple of days to carb bulk before the tourney, but I think 178 is doable by then. If i can convinvce myself to go hard on these intervals, 175 might even be achievable.

Jumps/Layouts: 3/10 Did a session on SLRVJ's off both legs: RSLRVJ needs a couple sessions of work at least. SVJ at 30.5"! I'm a little worried about training high layouts with or without a slip N slide. I injured my rotator cuff on one of these in game like a month ago so I've been hesitant about doing it. Definitely need to do at least 2 jump sessions and 2 layout sessions.

Will I get better results if I peak my bounciness or my anaerobic endurance?

yo. better results for what specifically?


Quote
No matter what I have to do more flexibility sessions cause my groin and hip flexors and hamstrings especially get tight fast. I think my frequent rounded back sitting lifestyle contributes to this. Do you guys think static stretching carries over to dynamic flexibility?

Also does having lateral and medial hamstring tightness discrepancies bad? I think my medial hamstrings are really tight. Check out the knee drive on this jump:



I've got 10 days left.

static stretching sucks........ but sometimes you just need to do it. It's best to get a solid warmup in, then some active/dynamic stretching as part of the warmup (swings, rotations, etc) .. train .. then possibly hit some chronic areas you have with some static stretching at the end.

from my experience: static stretching itself, frequently, can probably do more harm than good. It's absolutely great when you "just need to stretch" .. but, stretching every day always ends up making me MORE injured. Maybe i'm just stretching too hard? Probably not.. Even doing simple stretches in safe ROM's, for ~30s and such, every day, just seems to increase the risk that something will get achey or weak.

the important thing I find is.. at the end of your sessions, you don't even need to do a ton of stretching.. you're already much more loose. So you can hit chronic areas more efficiently. If you're cold, it takes you a while to work into those same positions and that's where potential damage is done.

so post workout - ya go for it.. just don't go overboard.

regarding whether static stretching carries over to dynamic: I can tell you that warming up REALLY GOOD and improving your ROM (with some light stretches and/or dynamic stretches/mobility movements) prior to training/lifting etc, carries over to dynamic. So I think that's the real area we should focus on.. Everything else is up for debate.

pc!

FP

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Re: FP's log
« Reply #367 on: August 18, 2016, 04:52:47 pm »
0
Goal Progress:

Anaerobic conditioning: 1/10 only a single session where I went too hard in the 400 and ended after 3 150's cause i set unrealistic time goals, then I ran another slightly submax 400m in 1:05. Other 2 times I went to the school track it was being used by the school. Just not good at motivating myself to do these.

Throws: 9/10 Throwing and taking notes on throws every day, only missed a single day of throwing since my last post.

Cutting: 6/10 I'm sitting at 181.8 lbs right now. I was 186 a few days ago but inconsistent water weight. I will need a couple of days to carb bulk before the tourney, but I think 178 is doable by then. If i can convinvce myself to go hard on these intervals, 175 might even be achievable.

Jumps/Layouts: 3/10 Did a session on SLRVJ's off both legs: RSLRVJ needs a couple sessions of work at least. SVJ at 30.5"! I'm a little worried about training high layouts with or without a slip N slide. I injured my rotator cuff on one of these in game like a month ago so I've been hesitant about doing it. Definitely need to do at least 2 jump sessions and 2 layout sessions.

Will I get better results if I peak my bounciness or my anaerobic endurance?

yo. better results for what specifically?

I guess i asked a complicated question that really only me and LBSS would be able to gauge since we are the only ones that played competitively on this board. I would say that as a D-line cutter anaerobic endurance is slightly more important than being bouncy but it really depends on how the other team is playing. Some points I might have to do multiple quick SLRVJs with only having a couple seconds of reaction time a lot: the less time I have to set up my jump, the weaker it's going to be since I'm a "strength SLRVJ jumper".

What I was really asking, is it more effective to peak with interval training or plyos? How much gains can I expect to see? I don't do a whole lot of power work (aside from jumping) so I think I would get considerable benefit from doing plyos. However if I can significantly increase my anaerobic endurance that would probably help me quite a bit more.

I remember reading one of the "blog posts" where you were talking about using depth jumps to peak DLRVJ, so any thoughts on that?

FP

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Re: FP's log
« Reply #368 on: August 18, 2016, 05:07:23 pm »
0
8/16
BW:180.8
Throwing: 120 minutes
Pickup: 90 minutes
Practice: 90 minutes

Brutal day.

8/17
Throwing: 60 minutes
Hit a downwind forehand for 82 yards!! Upwind 55 yards was probably the average forehand distance.
Downwind crossbody backhands (pull) grouped around 85 yards, 65 average upwind.

8/18
BW:182
stretches, low-impact plyos x10 mins
50m alt leg bounds x3
50m primetimes x2
starts x4

60 secs rest between reps, 3 mins between sets
Set 1: 200m x3, 100m x1
Set 2: 200m x2, 100m x2
Set 3: 200m x1, 100m x3

200s were mostly around 28-31s
100s were 13-14s

T0ddday

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Re: FP's log
« Reply #369 on: August 18, 2016, 05:16:26 pm »
0
Goal Progress:

Anaerobic conditioning: 1/10 only a single session where I went too hard in the 400 and ended after 3 150's cause i set unrealistic time goals, then I ran another slightly submax 400m in 1:05. Other 2 times I went to the school track it was being used by the school. Just not good at motivating myself to do these.

Throws: 9/10 Throwing and taking notes on throws every day, only missed a single day of throwing since my last post.

Cutting: 6/10 I'm sitting at 181.8 lbs right now. I was 186 a few days ago but inconsistent water weight. I will need a couple of days to carb bulk before the tourney, but I think 178 is doable by then. If i can convinvce myself to go hard on these intervals, 175 might even be achievable.

Jumps/Layouts: 3/10 Did a session on SLRVJ's off both legs: RSLRVJ needs a couple sessions of work at least. SVJ at 30.5"! I'm a little worried about training high layouts with or without a slip N slide. I injured my rotator cuff on one of these in game like a month ago so I've been hesitant about doing it. Definitely need to do at least 2 jump sessions and 2 layout sessions.

Will I get better results if I peak my bounciness or my anaerobic endurance?

yo. better results for what specifically?

I guess i asked a complicated question that really only me and LBSS would be able to gauge since we are the only ones that played competitively on this board. I would say that as a D-line cutter anaerobic endurance is slightly more important than being bouncy but it really depends on how the other team is playing. Some points I might have to do multiple quick SLRVJs with only having a couple seconds of reaction time a lot: the less time I have to set up my jump, the weaker it's going to be since I'm a "strength SLRVJ jumper".

What I was really asking, is it more effective to peak with interval training or plyos? How much gains can I expect to see? I don't do a whole lot of power work (aside from jumping) so I think I would get considerable benefit from doing plyos. However if I can significantly increase my anaerobic endurance that would probably help me quite a bit more.

I remember reading one of the "blog posts" where you were talking about using depth jumps to peak DLRVJ, so any thoughts on that?

The problem with your question is it really depends where you are.  For example I worked with a college football player here in LA for about two hours with a vertec (he was going to be testing his standing/running vertical for spring practice in a few weeks).  He was a powerful beast (I put up videos of him tossing a 12 pound medicine ball 20 yards with ease).  I added 2-3 inches to his vertical in a few hours.  However, when I asked him if he planted LR or RL he didn't even know.  He planted left right when he dunked basketballs but it turned out when I taught him to plant LR and actually twist into his drop step plant and get some practice at it he jumped much higher.  It was one of the more rewarding moments I have had training athletes...

Could I do the same with Andrew?  Or LBSS?  No way.  Those guys have greased their jumping groove for years. 

Similarly if I was going to play frisbee, what would I work on?  I would try to get a couple of two or three hours throwing sessions in with someone like you or LBSS.  Reason being, I can't throw at all.  I can toss a disc ok by flicking it with my wrist but I can't wind up and do the backhand toss, the hammer toss, etc.  I bet I could go from being a 2/10 on throws to a 4/10 very quickly which would make the biggest difference for me...  For you this probably wouldn't help much at all...

Yes, Andrew has talked about depth jumps and I have used them as well...  But they are not easy on the body and I wouldn't recommend them in season and still for your goals they wouldn't be super effective because the carryover to single leg jumping isn't that great...

As far as your goals; like you say there is variance because it depends on competition so no matter what you might be wrong when it comes to game time...  But basically, it depends on your stats.  Did you try one of the anaerobic workouts I mentioned?  Repeat 150s, repeat 200m, or 60m with walkback? If you try that - tell us how you did.  If your pretty terrible relative to your base speed you can make a lot of gains quick...  You can also know from game experience... Do you have a reputation on your team as being that guy who just runs out of gas in the 4th quarter?  Or are you just looking to be the guy who isn't fatigued when everyone else is?  Again if it's the first one it's gonna be a lot more effective for you...

As far as plyos and single leg jumps...  Since you call yourself a strength single leg jumper that tells me you aren't mechanically great at single leg jumping...  Plyos may help but rather than plyos - just a lot of focused single leg jump work could improve your mechanics so that you can get up a lot higher... Additionally, you probably have a lot of gains waiting on your bad leg.  My peak SL vertical on my left is around 36'' - my right is probably around 26'-30''...  I bet I could get my right leg up to consistent 32'' quite quickly with focus...  If I was a frisbee player and i needed that then I would...  What is your vertical jump standing, DL running, and single leg running? 

Do remember that if your in season and you have frequent games anything but mechanical practice might be out the window.  If you have games on W and  Saturday and start serious anaerobic conditioning don't be surprised if you have dead legs for a few games... Same with plyos - you could be fried or even worse get injured...  That's what most serious gains made by athletes who are mid to high level are done in the offseason...

LBSS

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Re: FP's log
« Reply #370 on: August 18, 2016, 06:06:58 pm »
0
as a d-line cutter, anaerobic endurance is paramount. you can be the quickest or bounciest dude in the world but if your team throws a zone and in you're in the cup and you die, your usefulness declines real quick. IIRC, greater aerobic fitness enables faster recovery between points, as well.

you're tall and can jump reasonably well, certainly well enough to sky the majority of players if you have a good read. can't remember how fast you are but top speed is less important than route-running on O and change of direction ability on D.

if i were you i'd follow t0ddday's advice and do some technique work for SLRVJ -- at a disc as much as possible, get someone to huck to you and go up for it, or throw high under throws -- and cutting/route-running, and focus on repeat sprints. as the season goes on you can cut back on the sprinting volume but you're still worried about being in good enough shape so put the emphasis on that for now. workouts could be something like:

- throws, route running, SLRVJ (15-20 mins total)
- repeat sprints a la the t0ddday 150 hell workout that makes me want to throw up (no idea how long this would take)
- more throws and SLRVJ to cool down and practice skills while tired (10-15 mins total)
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

FP

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Re: FP's log
« Reply #371 on: August 18, 2016, 09:31:09 pm »
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As far as your goals; like you say there is variance because it depends on competition so no matter what you might be wrong when it comes to game time...  But basically, it depends on your stats.  Did you try one of the anaerobic workouts I mentioned?  Repeat 150s, repeat 200m, or 60m with walkback? If you try that - tell us how you did.  If your pretty terrible relative to your base speed you can make a lot of gains quick...  You can also know from game experience... Do you have a reputation on your team as being that guy who just runs out of gas in the 4th quarter?  Or are you just looking to be the guy who isn't fatigued when everyone else is?  Again if it's the first one it's gonna be a lot more effective for you...

As far as plyos and single leg jumps...  Since you call yourself a strength single leg jumper that tells me you aren't mechanically great at single leg jumping...  Plyos may help but rather than plyos - just a lot of focused single leg jump work could improve your mechanics so that you can get up a lot higher... Additionally, you probably have a lot of gains waiting on your bad leg.  My peak SL vertical on my left is around 36'' - my right is probably around 26'-30''...  I bet I could get my right leg up to consistent 32'' quite quickly with focus...  If I was a frisbee player and i needed that then I would...  What is your vertical jump standing, DL running, and single leg running? 

Do remember that if your in season and you have frequent games anything but mechanical practice might be out the window.  If you have games on W and  Saturday and start serious anaerobic conditioning don't be surprised if you have dead legs for a few games... Same with plyos - you could be fried or even worse get injured...  That's what most serious gains made by athletes who are mid to high level are done in the offseason...

After today's 100s and 200s I feel like my anerobic endurance is pretty decent cause I was running them with a friend and he was finishing like 3-6secs after me on the 100s and 5-10secs on the 200s. But then we played flag football later and he was one of the best players.

The workout I did had much longer rests than the one you suggested. That 400m followed by 150s workout seems much more difficult to me cause there's no stopping at all: even during the break you're either doing pushups or jogging to the next 150. That sort of consistent running destroys my back and diaphragm the most usually.

Here's my jumps:
SVJ current, PR: 31"
RL-DLRVJ current: 34", PR: 35.5",
LR-DLRVJ: 31"? only measured once
L-SLRVJ current, PR: 31"
R-SLRVJ current: 24", PR: 30"

Any reason why your SLRVJ's are kind of low compared to your DLRVJ? I figured that since you were a power and P-chain oriented athlete your SLRVJ would be closer to your DLRVJ.

My practices aren't too intense so I'm not too worried about getting injured. That said I'm probably gonna variate easy days (throwing mostly, maybe jumping) and hard days (intervals, light plyo's)

Any reason you think strength SLRVJ jumpers have worse technique? By "strength SLRVJ jumper" I just meant that i do better with a longer ground contact time. I try to get low on my approach that helps a lot. But you can't really do that with 1 step short ROM

as a d-line cutter, anaerobic endurance is paramount. you can be the quickest or bounciest dude in the world but if your team throws a zone and in you're in the cup and you die, your usefulness declines real quick. IIRC, greater aerobic fitness enables faster recovery between points, as well.

you're tall and can jump reasonably well, certainly well enough to sky the majority of players if you have a good read. can't remember how fast you are but top speed is less important than route-running on O and change of direction ability on D.

if i were you i'd follow t0ddday's advice and do some technique work for SLRVJ -- at a disc as much as possible, get someone to huck to you and go up for it, or throw high under throws -- and cutting/route-running, and focus on repeat sprints. as the season goes on you can cut back on the sprinting volume but you're still worried about being in good enough shape so put the emphasis on that for now. workouts could be something like:

- throws, route running, SLRVJ (15-20 mins total)
- repeat sprints a la the t0ddday 150 hell workout that makes me want to throw up (no idea how long this would take)
- more throws and SLRVJ to cool down and practice skills while tired (10-15 mins total)

Yeah I really need to get out and get someone to throw 50-50s to me and someone else. The problem is I know only a few guys that would be willing to do 50-50s with me and they aren't local lol

Route running might be a little tough since my club team runs a very disorganized hostack. Footwork might be a good not too high intensity thing to brush upon as well.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 09:35:51 pm by Final Phenom »

T0ddday

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Re: FP's log
« Reply #372 on: August 19, 2016, 12:06:30 am »
+1
After today's 100s and 200s I feel like my anerobic endurance is pretty decent cause I was running them with a friend and he was finishing like 3-6secs after me on the 100s and 5-10secs on the 200s. But then we played flag football later and he was one of the best players.

Yeah, really a good example of how endurance is so sport specific.  I don't like to even get too scientific about the anaerobic/aerobic breakdown and I like to just call it sport-specific endurance.  I train with a couple 400m hurdlers who are by most measures in far better shape than me...  However, one of them is trying to play football and after practice we do route drills, one the other was shocked at how out of shape I seem for the track workout but during football the tables are turned.  We are basically running hi-intensity 10-40yd routes, outs, hitches, posts, etc, we probably run a route every 2-3 minutes.  I am ready to go and fresh for each route but the other guy gets gassed, football specific endurance...  The other guy is a 46 second 400m guy and he even mentioned how he tried to play pickup basketball and realized how out of shape he was for basketball...  Both basketball and football (especially football) have tons of breaks of up to a minute between every hard play - being in shape here is almost completely about how well you can recover between reps to regain maximum power for a very short burst...  Because you described frisbee as more soccer like the 150 workout is more ideal for you because it's low-intensity periods to recover rather than complete rest...

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The workout I did had much longer rests than the one you suggested. That 400m followed by 150s workout seems much more difficult to me cause there's no stopping at all: even during the break you're either doing pushups or jogging to the next 150. That sort of consistent running destroys my back and diaphragm the most usually.

Drop the 400m.   Stick to the 150s and pushups.  You can be a little bit more liberal with the jog.  For the 150's aim for 20-25 seconds and allow yourself 60 seconds to get to the next mark and complete your pushups, it should be 150, jog for about 20 seconds (it's just 25 meters) then rest for 10-20, then pushups, then go.


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Here's my jumps:
SVJ current, PR: 31"
RL-DLRVJ current: 34", PR: 35.5",
LR-DLRVJ: 31"? only measured once
L-SLRVJ current, PR: 31"
R-SLRVJ current: 24", PR: 30"

Those are not bad numbers, I would argue easiest bang for buck would be getting those L and R single leg jumps higher..

Quote
Any reason why your SLRVJ's are kind of low compared to your DLRVJ? I figured that since you were a power and P-chain oriented athlete your SLRVJ would be closer to your DLRVJ.

The same reason Kingfish can't jump with a runup or off one foot.  I don't do it.  This is why jumping is a bad measure of power.  If I didn't jump at all and relied on simply posterior chain power my max jump would probably be around 35''.   But I don't.  I rely on power  and skill at the movement and it's not an exaggeration to say that skill is worth about 10 inches... 

I'm not good at single leg jumping because I don't do it.  I've been better but never as good as my peak double leg jumping.  I don't like to practice single leg jumping unless my bodyweight is really low, the shock is just too much.  I don't like to practice max double leg jumping too much at high body weight either but I find that I can maintain skill by doing drop step jumps and their isn't really a way to keep up single leg jumping that is less shock.  The last time I got lean and peaked my vertical I was playing 2 on 2 and jumping incredibly well.  Best I ever have in my life.  Every time I got past my man, got a rebound, or a back cut I could easily just rise up and dunk it with two hands.  In the flow of the game I tried a one footed dunk and I got it down but it wasn't pretty... I did a few to get on video that same day but those are the only single leg dunks I have done in about 3 years...  Andrew has motivated me to add penultimate jumps to make practice when I do focus on vertical so my one footed jump isn't so pathetic, but in general unless you practice something a lot it's not good...

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Any reason you think strength SLRVJ jumpers have worse technique? By "strength SLRVJ jumper" I just meant that i do better with a longer ground contact time. I try to get low on my approach that helps a lot. But you can't really do that with 1 step short ROM

Well, in general there are good strength vertical jumpers... There are some ok DLRVJ strength jumpers, but there are no good strength single leg jumpers...  I mean think about it..  Each jump has a tradeoff.  Vertical jump has the longest ground contact time and allows for the greatest knee bend as you can explode out of a full squat if necessary like Kingfish and LBSS do...  When you move to DLRVJ you give that up in favor of more speed.  If you are a "slow" "strength" RDLVJ guy that means you basically run up and squat down and jump - if you jump like this you DLRVJ won't be better than your standing jump...

Single leg jumping is the extreme version of this.  You only get to jump off of one leg!  I mean how much can you one leg squat?  Not much...  You sacrifice a lot of power BUT it's worth it because you can keep much more speed in the jump than a two-legged jump...  If you spend more time on the ground than most in your single leg jump, well you just are not a good single leg jumper...  I'm not a great single leg jumper but I have been better and what practicing the single leg jump will do for you is basically teach you how to block your body better so you can travel upward with more speed...  The best single leg jumper is the one who takes off with the highest speed...  When I was a decent single leg jumper it always felt very effortless...  The mechanically difficult part of the single leg jump is all about the last two steps, do you slow down to dip and drive or do you accelerate to block and fly?  It's not easy but it is practicable...   Penultimate jumps, one-two jumps over low hurdles, and high speed jumps will get you there... I think you could really surprise yourself if you put work into it...

FP

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Re: FP's log
« Reply #373 on: August 29, 2016, 12:57:29 am »
+1
Season is over. We were seeded 9th and got 6th, top 5 teams are going to regionals. We had our whole team together for the first time in a while so I played starting D-line and only a few O-line points. I played mostly shutdown defense, wasn't able to get too many poaches cause i was usually covering the best cutter. 0 layouts, 0 true D's. I didn't get beat deep at all but I gave up short unders occasionally, twice i got beat up the line: this is a sign that either my footwork is bad or that I don't accelerate fast enough, both problems I need to address. I know I played good.. Just wish the captain let me play O-line I could have contributed a lot. I got a few tips on run-through D attempts and 3 touches on pointblock attempts. Got lots of goals.

Anaerobic Endurance wasn't a problem at all because I only played about half the D points (long rests between points) and there were no marathon points. I was slow though: not explosive at all. I really should have done more short sprints during the last 2 weeks, 5 interval sessions at submax speed with not a whole lot of speed work to balance the fiber counts was poor planning.

Gonna start thorough GPP asap, all hamstring stuff on hold cause I'm almost positive my hamstring pain is tendinitis. I thought it might be DOMS but it's only in 1 leg and only bothers me directly after intensive running (but not 24-48 hours later like doms). It's a very dull and achy pain. Similar symptoms to groin tendinitis. After I get my hamstring problem sorted out I wanna do 1:1 weight room GPP: speed/power session. I have 6 months of offeason to train for spring.

Eventually going to write out a more detailed plan.

T0ddday

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Re: FP's log
« Reply #374 on: August 29, 2016, 04:33:19 am »
0
Season is over. We were seeded 9th and got 6th, top 5 teams are going to regionals. We had our whole team together for the first time in a while so I played starting D-line and only a few O-line points. I played mostly shutdown defense, wasn't able to get too many poaches cause i was usually covering the best cutter. 0 layouts, 0 true D's. I didn't get beat deep at all but I gave up short unders occasionally, twice i got beat up the line: this is a sign that either my footwork is bad or that I don't accelerate fast enough, both problems I need to address. I know I played good.. Just wish the captain let me play O-line I could have contributed a lot. I got a few tips on run-through D attempts and 3 touches on pointblock attempts. Got lots of goals.

Anaerobic Endurance wasn't a problem at all because I only played about half the D points (long rests between points) and there were no marathon points. I was slow though: not explosive at all. I really should have done more short sprints during the last 2 weeks, 5 interval sessions at submax speed with not a whole lot of speed work to balance the fiber counts was poor planning.

Gonna start thorough GPP asap, all hamstring stuff on hold cause I'm almost positive my hamstring pain is tendinitis. I thought it might be DOMS but it's only in 1 leg and only bothers me directly after intensive running (but not 24-48 hours later like doms). It's a very dull and achy pain. Similar symptoms to groin tendinitis. After I get my hamstring problem sorted out I wanna do 1:1 weight room GPP: speed/power session. I have 6 months of offeason to train for spring.

Eventually going to write out a more detailed plan.

I dunno about frisbee but in football when I have a corner who never gets beat deep and keeps giving up plays underneath or in the flat... It's not athleticism but it's just poor strategy...  Is frisbee not the same?  In football I try to remind players that you want to get beat deep 0.99 times per game - if that makes sense...