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LBSS

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Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« Reply #1860 on: June 06, 2013, 09:42:15 am »
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Do you have a GHR machine?

yep. vid coming.

ETA vid of GHR and paused squats. notes:

i do not fire my glutes properly on GHRs. on the set after this one (it was the second of three) i focused on squeezing my glutes and extending my hips at the top and trying to maintain that all the way through. made the movement harder and i still lost some glute contraction at the bottom; transferred to hamstrings.

paused squats were just bad yesterday, this should not have been as ugly as it was. will stick with 285 next time but i'll be mad if it's not better than this. interesting to note that these are really full depth sans back rounding -- they don't look as deep as they feel. guess that's where the dorsiflexion comes in. you can see from old vids and the screen cap i posted that i don't usually lean this far forward. i came way up on my toes on the third rep. will do better next time.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6VvmllVvVk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6VvmllVvVk</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03mF1JEpzj4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03mF1JEpzj4</a>

« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 10:40:34 am by LBSS »
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

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https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

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T0ddday

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Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« Reply #1861 on: June 06, 2013, 09:45:48 am »
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^ To add to the interesting debate yall are sharing...  I agree for the most part with Avishek regarding inhibition except for I don't see the horribleness of the low-bar squat.  One thing extremely confusing though.... LBBS and LBSS... I can't tell if people are talking the damn squat or working out with you...

Agree that inhibition regarding the 40yd is not likely to make a huge difference.  I bet if we had video of you and Avishek racing over 40yds and him running 4.7 and you 5.1 the main advantage I would see him having is simply being a much more coordinated more dynamic athlete.  I haven't seen his sprints but his triple jumps and hitch kicks show he knows how to "be more explosive".  Now some of this might be due to a relative or specific strength advantage and his more mobile hip flexors might get him an inch longer stride, but over 40yds the main thing is his ability to make power from power.   If you raced to 60 this contrast would probably be more stark.  As you keep doing single leg and double leg bounding you will get better. 

As far as the low bar squat.  I prefer high bar squat 100X for athletes... but it's because the low bar squat is much more often done in a really shitty way, not because the spot on the back matters!  That's a big distinction.  Squatting just isn't that specific.  If your getting stronger and bigger legs, glutes etc... That's what matters.  Your squat  looks like it makes your legs stronger....  If your squat has leaves you with a weakness this can be tested and addressed.   You jumping angle on your squat and VJ are really similar but I'm not even sure if that matters.   I got my high-bar squat to 405 with form similar to KF but a more rounded back at the bottom because of my shitty ankle dorsiflexion.  I got my vertical to 37 shortly after that with a dip which was only about an 1/4 to 1/8 of a squat and looked nothing like that angles I take in the squat.   Squatting helped get my basic strength up but really the vertical was about one explosive dynamic movement which mostly got better from a few months of practice, some weighted and banded jumps, and a background of sprinting.  They don't need to look the same.   

LBSS

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Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« Reply #1862 on: June 06, 2013, 10:45:25 am »
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haha sorry about the confusion with my screen name. didn't think about that acronym when i came up with it however many years ago. maybe i should just change it a la hyperdunk.

and yeah, avishek is just better at producing power than i am. his movements look lighter than mine, on hops and jumps he doesn't muscle through stuff the way i do. hopefully with bounding and sprints that will improve. on friday if it's not raining i'm going to hit up the track and measure out 40y and 60m. sprinting on turf in sneakers is not ideal. one thing avishek mentioned during our session was that he's gotten his best power development from working not on acceleration but on top-end speed. i should do more 60's, in other words, and fewer 40's.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

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https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

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Raptor

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Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« Reply #1863 on: June 06, 2013, 12:05:10 pm »
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I have two comments:

1) Your GHRs didn't look bad at all. I think you should focus more on starting from a posterior pelvic tilt and try to maintain those glutes firing, even if you don't do a good job at it initially

and

2) Focus on improving the bar speed on the paused squats rather than upping the weight and continuing to do them slowly. Think of the bar speed as your barometer of improvement. If you squat the same amount of weight but you do so in a faster manner then that is IMPROVEMENT, and it could be a MUCH better improvement in your particular situation that you're in now than if you were to just increase the bar weight and "get stronger" in that way.

In that regard, I would up the weight if all your say 5 reps were fast on the concentric (fast for the standards that you set) and also you felt like if you were to go all out you would've done 7 reps with that weight. If these two conditions are met then you up the weight.

At least this is my opinion.

LBSS

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Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« Reply #1864 on: June 07, 2013, 08:28:29 pm »
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WEIGHT: 176
SORENESS: none
ACHES/INJURIES: quads tight but not as bad as the other day, left hip tweaked while i was stretching right hamstring at the end. weird.
MENTAL STATE: okay

- warm up

- SVJ x 8
better than the other day, 25-26

- depth jump x 8
the space is wrong and it was crowded, hard to get a good full jump. mostly around 26 or a little higher, but these would have been better if i'd had more space

- SVJ x 3
nope

- MR half tuck x 30,30,30

- various leg raises, windshield wipers, etc.

- some DB upper body shit

- 15 double unders on the minute x 10
easy once i got the rhythm, too easy. hadn't done double unders in a while.

- stretch

should have been a track day today but it was pouring so i improvised. back tomorrow.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

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BMully

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Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« Reply #1865 on: June 07, 2013, 11:03:28 pm »
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Could you tell me the meaning of your avatar? Is it a foot injury or something?


T0ddday

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Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« Reply #1866 on: June 08, 2013, 01:08:19 am »
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^ GHRS look great.  Awesome that you have those in your gym.  What kinda gym you train in?

Just to reiterate?  You primary goal is dunking and you are a two-footed jumper right?  If that's the case... Then I think for you and those like you that way to much emphasis is put on the similarity between squat angles and standing jumping angles.  Who cares about your standing vertical... your going to jump highest with a running start, so squatting isn't that specific to you.  Your pause squat look great although I disagree with Raptor that you need to focus on bar speed to go up in weight.   Don't let reps become all out grinders but push the weight up consistently, lift weights to get strong, jump, bound and sprint to get fast.   

I posted a video of some jumping practice I just did in my journal ( http://www.adarq.org/progress-journals-experimental-routines/t0ddday-journal/msg90151/ ) and realized my two footed jump truly looks nothing like my squat.  Not only is the depth way higher but on the best jumps I am almost twisted, my left foot plants slightly first and my right swings around with a bit of torque... Now this could be just a bad habit... but it still makes me think that while squatting helps it's really helpful because of the general strength and muscle building rather than the speed though a certain movement....

Raptor

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Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« Reply #1867 on: June 08, 2013, 08:51:10 am »
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It's normal to plant and rotate around the stronger leg in a 2-leg jump in basketball. I would argue you plant first the leg that has the best hip control and strength, and that first leg will actively participate more than 50% in the actual jump, the second leg coming to stop horizontal momentum and help in the braking more (all this while the first leg continues to load up to generate power).

If you look at the best dunkers, as soon as they touch the ground with their 2nd leg they IMMEDIATELY start going up. So the 2nd leg doesn't really have time, nor position, to generate a lot of power. It's the 1st leg that is doing the vast majority of power generation.

LBSS

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Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« Reply #1868 on: June 08, 2013, 09:04:30 am »
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Could you tell me the meaning of your avatar? Is it a foot injury or something?

i have osteoarthritis in my big toes. both feet. that's an x-ray of the left one, which is the one that started hurting first. now the right one is worse.

@t0ddday and raptor:

thanks to both, good advices. t0ddday your plant sounds right, as raptor says. my plant is too much of a jump stop, something you can see easily in my vids or in person, as avishek can attest. not sure how to fix that other than practicing. SVJ is simply a measure of power, so i figure improving SVJ can't be a bad thing. if i'm unable to do any kind of running jump (like yesterday when it was pouring rain) then i'll do SVJ and depth jumps.

part of my problem with RVJ is that i'm overwhelmingly a LR planter, but my right leg is historically bigger and stronger than my left. whether that's from years of fencing, or what, i don't know.

ETA: if lance or alex v comes in here, would love to hear some thoughts on the GHR vid.

also, my gym is a pretty ordinary gym except their roots are in fitness boot camps and "functional training." so there's the normal machines and treadmills and stuff, but also i think 8 squat racks, an oly platform (getting another one soon), at least two GHRs, med balls, kbs, etc.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 09:11:10 am by LBSS »
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

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LBSS

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Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« Reply #1869 on: June 10, 2013, 11:11:43 pm »
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thwarted again by the fucking rain. got soaked on the way to the gym, to boot.  :pissed:

WEIGHT: 177.5
SORENESS: none
ACHES/INJURIES: neck and traps, lower back very stiff all day. loosened up somewhat at gym, warmed up more than usual
MENTAL STATE: stressed

- warm up

- a lot of SVJ and DSVJ at 90-95% effort, and DLRVJ and SLRVJ (off two- and three-step lead-ins) at ~80-85% effort
pretty garbage. mixed everything in.

- MR half tuck x 30,30,30

- OHP 115 x 5; 120 x 5; 125 x 3

- underhand BB row 135 x 8,8

- strict hanging leg raise x 6,6,6
less than 30s between sets

- stretch

waste. hopefully it won't rain tomorrow. also i'm leaving for afghanistan and tajikistan on wednesday.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

LanceSTS

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Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« Reply #1870 on: June 10, 2013, 11:34:33 pm »
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Ghr looks pretty good, youre already doing them better than most.  Drive your toes into the pad HARD as you come up, drive your hips through the pad more.  Youre letting your hips come back a little on the way up taking some of the glute drive away.  A good cue to get the calves and glutes working correctly is to "pinch" the foot plate with the first toes, then drive holes in the plate with them.

Guys like yourself will get more out of squatting explosively than naturally fast and explosive types.  There is a lot going on, but to put it simply you have to teach your nervous system to be fast and powerful under high stress/high loads and not shut down, its not as reactive or "natural" as some of the springy type athletes who have different genetic set ups. 

You can tell pretty easy who is which type of athlete by the speed of the run up they come in with.  Guys that get more out of squatting more explosively will be the ones that tend to "ease"  into the counter movement.  This stands for the standing vert as well.  You can find different opinions on why this is,  a solid theory is that one type of athlete is relying more on muscular contribution, while the other is more tendon/springy in nature.  The guy getting more out of his tendons is not going to get the same turn over from squatting explosively as the guy not as gifted in that area will.  It is extremely valuable to the second type of athlete.
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AlexV

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Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« Reply #1871 on: June 10, 2013, 11:38:18 pm »
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Do you have a GHR machine?

yep. vid coming.

ETA vid of GHR and paused squats. notes:

i do not fire my glutes properly on GHRs. on the set after this one (it was the second of three) i focused on squeezing my glutes and extending my hips at the top and trying to maintain that all the way through. made the movement harder and i still lost some glute contraction at the bottom; transferred to hamstrings.

paused squats were just bad yesterday, this should not have been as ugly as it was. will stick with 285 next time but i'll be mad if it's not better than this. interesting to note that these are really full depth sans back rounding -- they don't look as deep as they feel. guess that's where the dorsiflexion comes in. you can see from old vids and the screen cap i posted that i don't usually lean this far forward. i came way up on my toes on the third rep. will do better next time.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6VvmllVvVk" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6VvmllVvVk</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03mF1JEpzj4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03mF1JEpzj4</a>

They look pretty good.  I personally think that the glute "inhibition" in the GHR comes from a lack of lower ab strength.  Get the abs to anchor the pelvis and the glutes will fall into place.  I love iso holds on the ghr starting at the top.  lower yourself into the lowest position you can get into without losing the abs and hold for 30-45 sec.  Build to 1 min per set, doing multiple sets of course.  Slowly work on getting lower and lower during your holds. 

Like raptor said, kinda, you should almost feel like the abs are trying to pull you into posterior tilt.  once or twice a week test the full rom ghr and see where you are at.

Also the starting from the top is very important in the holds.working from bottom up is no where near as effective.  You'll find 45 degrees is going to be a bitch but once you are money there you got em!
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LBSS

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Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« Reply #1872 on: June 10, 2013, 11:54:39 pm »
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Ghr looks pretty good, youre already doing them better than most.  Drive your toes into the pad HARD as you come up, drive your hips through the pad more.  Youre letting your hips come back a little on the way up taking some of the glute drive away.  A good cue to get the calves and glutes working correctly is to "pinch" the foot plate with the first toes, then drive holes in the plate with them.

Guys like yourself will get more out of squatting explosively than naturally fast and explosive types.  There is a lot going on, but to put it simply you have to teach your nervous system to be fast and powerful under high stress/high loads and not shut down, its not as reactive or "natural" as some of the springy type athletes who have different genetic set ups. 

You can tell pretty easy who is which type of athlete by the speed of the run up they come in with.  Guys that get more out of squatting more explosively will be the ones that tend to "ease"  into the counter movement.  This stands for the standing vert as well.  You can find different opinions on why this is,  a solid theory is that one type of athlete is relying more on muscular contribution, while the other is more tendon/springy in nature.  The guy getting more out of his tendons is not going to get the same turn over from squatting explosively as the guy not as gifted in that area will.  It is extremely valuable to the second type of athlete.

word, thanks for the cues on GHR.

i'm not sure what you're saying about what i'm doing, in that vid or more broadly; what would you recommend? i'm already trying to increase my emphasis on speed stuff through the bounding and sprinting. t0ddday's point about squatting to get strong and sprinting and jumping to get fast and...good at jumping makes sense to me but i'm wary of it because that sounds like a quick way back to focusing too much on the squat.

@alexv thanks for the feedback. i figured out the iso hold from the top + slow descent thing but i haven't tried those intermediate holds. sounds like a good plan. i'd like to think that my lower abs are reasonably strong and that the problem is more with my hip flexors restricting full extension throughout the movement. regardless, i can obviously improve in both areas.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

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LanceSTS

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Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« Reply #1873 on: June 11, 2013, 12:19:39 am »
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i'm not sure what you're saying about what i'm doing, in that vid or more broadly; what would you recommend? i'm already trying to increase my emphasis on speed stuff through the bounding and sprinting. t0ddday's point about squatting to get strong and sprinting and jumping to get fast and...good at jumping makes sense to me but i'm wary of it because that sounds like a quick way back to focusing too much on the squat.


 Im talking about your focus on squatting explosively that I think Raptor mentioned was a good idea, it is.  For some athletes it really doesnt seem to matter much, the ones that are naturally more "reactive" and "springy".   For others, it helps a lot, this was explained in the contribution of muscles and tendons in my earlier quote.  Of course not at the expense of sprinting, plyos, etc., its simply a matter of when you squat, focus on being as explosive as humanly possible.  This will help YOU a lot more than it would help someone like todday.
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T0ddday

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Re: a fast and explosive donkey!
« Reply #1874 on: June 11, 2013, 12:53:10 am »
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Guys like yourself will get more out of squatting explosively than naturally fast and explosive types.  There is a lot going on, but to put it simply you have to teach your nervous system to be fast and powerful under high stress/high loads and not shut down, its not as reactive or "natural" as some of the springy type athletes who have different genetic set ups. 

You can tell pretty easy who is which type of athlete by the speed of the run up they come in with.  Guys that get more out of squatting more explosively will be the ones that tend to "ease"  into the counter movement.  This stands for the standing vert as well.  You can find different opinions on why this is,  a solid theory is that one type of athlete is relying more on muscular contribution, while the other is more tendon/springy in nature.  The guy getting more out of his tendons is not going to get the same turn over from squatting explosively as the guy not as gifted in that area will.  It is extremely valuable to the second type of athlete.

This is really interesting. 

Does this mean that if you come into the counter movement fast that there is no benefit to squatting?   I haven't always measured my vertical but I could always jump at least 36 inches while squatting 205 or 405...  If anything I've found only that squatting directly helps my vertical jump from a low pause... something which isn't very good anyway.   Because I have never seen a direct correlation with myself or any of the sprinters I have worked with...  I've always figured the carryover was indirect general strength.  The only guys I have seen jump much higher after squatting are usually somewhat poor athletes to begin with; and there are so many variables (fat loss,etc) for beginners.   Personally I feel squatting helps the sprints moreso just because the ability to handle fatigue during multiple rep squat sets carries over well to sprinting.


How much evidence is there that there are guys who use less tendon by nature?  I've just always assumed that guys who "ease" into the counter movement that you describe are just guys who are not yet coordinated at jumping correctly.  Give them practice and everyone will jump with similar optimal mechanics.   I mean you don't have sprinters who muscle up the track or long jumpers who approach the board slowly!  There is some difference in jumpers as far as how much slowing is done during the penultimate step.... but they are all storing a lot of energy.   I can't imagine someone really training the jumps and sticking with mechanics that don't look springy.  Even poor jumping decathletes don't appear to be jumping without building up a lot of energy.   

Perhaps being involved in basketball gives you a unique ability to study these kind of athletes in the two footed jumps.  I guess basketball has so much more to it than jumping that you will have high level players who aren't capable of jumping in an explosive manner?  And these athletes can make more gains by getting stronger than they can changing their mechanics to store more energy?  Never thought about it like that.

Also, if  LBSS can get more out of squatting because he is a more "deliberate" jumper, then would you argue that he will also be a better vertical jumper and dunker (where you need to be deliberate and controlled to coordinate the movement) then someone who jumps with more speed?