Author Topic: Age vs VO2max  (Read 960538 times)

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vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3915 on: April 08, 2020, 10:31:35 am »
+1
1 Week of bad weather. Tons of rain, wind, even a bit of snow. Looks like it's over for good now, entering good old Greek spring.

De-trained period ending watch data : VO2max = 43, estimated race times 5K 25:58 / 10K 57:02

7 April 2020

RUN 6K @ 42:22
Went 5K comfortable ( 34:02 ) and then 1K slow cooldown (8:20 )
Average HR : 139
Watch workout benefit assessment : pace (keeping medium paces for long time ) , agree.
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3916 on: April 09, 2020, 07:29:50 am »
+2
8 April 2020

RUN 6.15K @ 48:39
Went slow, goal was recovery.
Average HR : 139
Watch workout benefit assessment : base ( low impact running ) , agree.

However, estimated VO2max is on a decrease status, still 43 but 5K estimated PR has gone up to 26:05.
To make this even worse, 'body battery' is at 5% since yesterday after the run, it didn't improve at all at sleep (7hrs) and today 5K PR has gone to 26:10. Meh.
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3917 on: April 13, 2020, 12:13:33 pm »
+2
10 April 2020

HIIT SESSION

-Warmup jog 1K

C1a : Sprint 400m @ +90% ( fastest : 1:47 / 4:31km pace , slowest 1:55 / 4:47km pace )
C1b : Recovery walk 200m
C1 info : 6 rounds

-Cooldown jog 1K

Total 5.7K @ 42:28

Watch workout benefit assessment : anaerobic endurance, agree.



11 April 2020

Mixed running comfrotable and recreational walking, total ~5K @ ~40'

Watch workout benefit assessment : base ( low impact running ) , agree.
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3918 on: April 14, 2020, 05:31:36 am »
+2
13 April 2020

RUN 6K @ 40:41
Went 5K just a bit faster than comfortable ( 31:06 ) and then 1K very slow cooldown ( 9:35 )
Average HR : 147
Watch workout benefit assessment : limit (muscle endurance/fatigue resistance) , disagree, felt more like pace (medium effort).
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3919 on: April 21, 2020, 04:22:56 am »
+2
Massive update:

16 April 2020

RUN 5K @ 31:02
Cool down 1.5K
TOTAL : 6.5K @ 44:49
Watch workout benefit assessment : base, disagree it was between pace and limit.




17 April 2020

RUN 8.6K @ 1:02:54
Watch workout benefit assessment : limit , disagree, went slow and easy, felt like it, HR was high but I was fresh in the end, had another 5K very easy.



18 April 2020

HIIT SESSION

-Warmup jog 1K

C1a : Sprint 400m @ +90% ( best was 1:41/4:17 pace, 2020 PR )
C1b : Recovery walk 200m
C1 info : 8 rounds ( +2 rounds )

-Cool down jog 1K

Total 6.45K @ 46:43

Watch workout benefit assessment : anaerobic endurance, agree.



19 April 2020

Recreational walk 3K



20 April 2020

RUN 5K @ 27:35
Cool down 2.2K
Total 7.2K @ 47:05
Watch workout benefit assessment : VO2max (training for long time above lactic threshold), agree.

Started as an up-tempo 5K aiming for anything below 30:00 , at 2K i was keeping 5:45 relatively easy so decided to turn it to time trial. Had a few reserves left at the end, still 2nd fastest 5K of 2020.



Remarks from latest sessions:
-Garmin's GPS/distance assessment is accurate AF , it was the phone that was missing it sometimes.
-Apart from that last 5K time trial which was on road, all the other workouts this month were done on grass/soil. Turns out road is much faster. That has been fooling my watch too about my capacity/ability, but it saw the light too yesterday with the 5K time trial: estimated 5K race dropped from 25:50 to 25:20 and i wasn't ever recovered.
-Started being aware of my foot-strike and trying to adjust it. Feels like heel-middle-front is better ( faster, more force at each stride ) than my normal middle-front, is that correct?
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

LBSS

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3920 on: April 21, 2020, 12:38:31 pm »
+2
i think it's a mistake to overanalyze your foot strike. it'll naturally be different at different paces and on different surfaces and may change over time as you get stronger and fitter. being too intentional about it is a recipe for injury IMHO. there's no universal "ideal" footstrike or running posture.

cool to see you adding volume steadily.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

Coges

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3921 on: April 21, 2020, 08:17:16 pm »
+1
i think it's a mistake to overanalyze your foot strike. it'll naturally be different at different paces and on different surfaces and may change over time as you get stronger and fitter. being too intentional about it is a recipe for injury IMHO. there's no universal "ideal" footstrike or running posture.

cool to see you adding volume steadily.

Could we say that heel first is a recipe for disaster though? I think anything other that that is where you want to be.
"Train as hard as possible, as often as possible, while staying as fresh as possible"
- Zatsiorsky

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3922 on: April 23, 2020, 04:18:03 am »
+1
^^^
You guys are right. I don't know where i got this heel strike thing from. Thankfully i wasn't able to be aware of my foot strike during the last 5K time trial, so went normally. Only at previous session ( 400m intervals on grass ) i applied what i logged. Now that i read a few more things, i see the only thing worse than changing your foot strike is changing it to heel strike LOL.  :uhhhfacepalm:
LBSS right about volume but maybe too much, felt beat, watch agrees, last week volume is bigger than current fitness level. But i knew i had 2 heavy rain days coming up so it was kinda planned over-reaching. Now gotta slowly make my fitness reach this volume level. Lets see...
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

LBSS

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3923 on: April 23, 2020, 08:59:01 am »
+3
i think it's a mistake to overanalyze your foot strike. it'll naturally be different at different paces and on different surfaces and may change over time as you get stronger and fitter. being too intentional about it is a recipe for injury IMHO. there's no universal "ideal" footstrike or running posture.

cool to see you adding volume steadily.

Could we say that heel first is a recipe for disaster though? I think anything other that that is where you want to be.

no, i don't even think that's necessarily true. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/the-running-blog/2014/oct/09/is-heel-striking-the-enemy-of-good-running-form
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

Coges

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3924 on: April 23, 2020, 08:18:21 pm »
+2
i think it's a mistake to overanalyze your foot strike. it'll naturally be different at different paces and on different surfaces and may change over time as you get stronger and fitter. being too intentional about it is a recipe for injury IMHO. there's no universal "ideal" footstrike or running posture.

cool to see you adding volume steadily.

Could we say that heel first is a recipe for disaster though? I think anything other that that is where you want to be.

no, i don't even think that's necessarily true. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/the-running-blog/2014/oct/09/is-heel-striking-the-enemy-of-good-running-form

I should clarify what I see when I think of heel strike. I see that leg fully extended and straight. Overstriding and that massive force going through the heel being partially cushioned by the mattress being worn under the guise of a shoe (otherwise knows as Hokas).

I read the article though and here's what stood out to me:

- heel striking is generally seen to be less than ideal.
- studies suggest that changing foot strike can just change the loaded area for potential injury
- speeding up cadence will positively affect running form (=less heel strike)
- researchers found at the 5 mile stage of a marathon 93% of runners were heel striking (fewer of the faster runners landed on their heels)
- foot strike cannot an independant change. Alterations to cadence and strengthening must be taken into consideration
- AND anyone who commented in the article runs doesnt' heel strike haha

I really like this article too.
https://therunningclinic.com/runners/blog/archives-anglaises/why-a-majority-of-runners-even-among-international-elites-are-heel-strikers/

With the main points being:
3. The majority of these good level athletes, however, have what we call a"prorioceptive heel strike" (the foot flattens smoothly as soon as it hits the ground). We believe this way the foot grounds is no more harmful and no less effective than midfoot or forefoot striking because it doesn't involve a strong braking phase or brutal impact force.

and

6. The heel strike is not the only thing to look at. A heel strike may be acceptable if the shinbone is vertical, the knee is bent, and the impact loads just in front of the center of gravity. A biomechanical analysis must therefore be global. The 4 biomechanical clues which often combine and express the same problem are:

- less vertical orientation of the tibia/shinbone
- deceased knee flexion during contact
- ground contact far ahead of the center of gravity
- the heel strikes the ground first


So maybe in summary, heel strike under the right conditions isn't a bad thing. Heel strike for the general population without consideration of overall running form potentially is.
"Train as hard as possible, as often as possible, while staying as fresh as possible"
- Zatsiorsky

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3925 on: April 24, 2020, 12:42:48 pm »
0
^^^
Good info! I think ill go with 'natural' for now, keeping an eye for too intense heel strike.

23 April 2020

RUN 7K @ 46:50
Went comfortable at all times.
Watch workout benefit assessment : limit. I disagree, it was a pace workout. HR was high ( average 148 ) but it was easy and was kinda fresh at the end.
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

adarqui

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3926 on: April 24, 2020, 01:04:57 pm »
+2
heel striking isn't bad unless it's a "breaking strike", way out in front of the body etc. most "athletic+healthy" people don't do that tho. (so like coges said, overstriding)

but yea, try not to think about footstrike at all. you'll get into the habit of thinking about footstrike, then a year later get pissed that you're thinking about foot strike while running etc, and wish you weren't thinking about it.

clear mind while running = efficiency

like lbss said: if you want to change your foot strike naturally, run on different surfaces and/or inclines etc.
- hills: midfoot/forefoot
- fine grass/dirt/clay with lighter shoes: more midfoot
- concrete/pavement: more flat / heel first touch

lighter shoes w/o lots of heel cushion will change the strike too.

so tracks spikes/XC flats on grass/dirt will get you a solid midfoot strike. training alot on surfaces like this will then carry over to the concrete/paved road mechanics.

but ya try not to think about it at all, IMHO !

pc!





^^^
Good info! I think ill go with 'natural' for now, keeping an eye for too intense heel strike.

23 April 2020

RUN 7K @ 46:50
Went comfortable at all times.
Watch workout benefit assessment : limit. I disagree, it was a pace workout. HR was high ( average 148 ) but it was easy and was kinda fresh at the end.





i think it's a mistake to overanalyze your foot strike. it'll naturally be different at different paces and on different surfaces and may change over time as you get stronger and fitter. being too intentional about it is a recipe for injury IMHO. there's no universal "ideal" footstrike or running posture.

cool to see you adding volume steadily.

Could we say that heel first is a recipe for disaster though? I think anything other that that is where you want to be.

no, i don't even think that's necessarily true. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/the-running-blog/2014/oct/09/is-heel-striking-the-enemy-of-good-running-form

I should clarify what I see when I think of heel strike. I see that leg fully extended and straight. Overstriding and that massive force going through the heel being partially cushioned by the mattress being worn under the guise of a shoe (otherwise knows as Hokas).

I read the article though and here's what stood out to me:

- heel striking is generally seen to be less than ideal.
- studies suggest that changing foot strike can just change the loaded area for potential injury
- speeding up cadence will positively affect running form (=less heel strike)
- researchers found at the 5 mile stage of a marathon 93% of runners were heel striking (fewer of the faster runners landed on their heels)
- foot strike cannot an independant change. Alterations to cadence and strengthening must be taken into consideration
- AND anyone who commented in the article runs doesnt' heel strike haha

I really like this article too.
https://therunningclinic.com/runners/blog/archives-anglaises/why-a-majority-of-runners-even-among-international-elites-are-heel-strikers/

With the main points being:
3. The majority of these good level athletes, however, have what we call a"prorioceptive heel strike" (the foot flattens smoothly as soon as it hits the ground). We believe this way the foot grounds is no more harmful and no less effective than midfoot or forefoot striking because it doesn't involve a strong braking phase or brutal impact force.

and

6. The heel strike is not the only thing to look at. A heel strike may be acceptable if the shinbone is vertical, the knee is bent, and the impact loads just in front of the center of gravity. A biomechanical analysis must therefore be global. The 4 biomechanical clues which often combine and express the same problem are:

- less vertical orientation of the tibia/shinbone
- deceased knee flexion during contact
- ground contact far ahead of the center of gravity
- the heel strikes the ground first


So maybe in summary, heel strike under the right conditions isn't a bad thing. Heel strike for the general population without consideration of overall running form potentially is.




i think it's a mistake to overanalyze your foot strike. it'll naturally be different at different paces and on different surfaces and may change over time as you get stronger and fitter. being too intentional about it is a recipe for injury IMHO. there's no universal "ideal" footstrike or running posture.

cool to see you adding volume steadily.

Could we say that heel first is a recipe for disaster though? I think anything other that that is where you want to be.

no, i don't even think that's necessarily true. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/the-running-blog/2014/oct/09/is-heel-striking-the-enemy-of-good-running-form

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3927 on: April 28, 2020, 07:15:40 am »
+2
heel striking isn't bad unless it's a "breaking strike", way out in front of the body etc. most "athletic+healthy" people don't do that tho. (so like coges said, overstriding)

but yea, try not to think about footstrike at all. you'll get into the habit of thinking about footstrike, then a year later get pissed that you're thinking about foot strike while running etc, and wish you weren't thinking about it.

clear mind while running = efficiency

like lbss said: if you want to change your foot strike naturally, run on different surfaces and/or inclines etc.
- hills: midfoot/forefoot
- fine grass/dirt/clay with lighter shoes: more midfoot
- concrete/pavement: more flat / heel first touch

lighter shoes w/o lots of heel cushion will change the strike too.

so tracks spikes/XC flats on grass/dirt will get you a solid midfoot strike. training alot on surfaces like this will then carry over to the concrete/paved road mechanics.

but ya try not to think about it at all, IMHO !

pc!

Gold!



24 April 2020

Recreactional walk 4K



26 April 2020

HIIT SESSION

-Warmup jog 1K

C1a : Sprint 400m @ +90% ( best was 1:36/4:02 pace, 2020 PR )
C1b : Recovery walk 200m
C1 info : 6 rounds ( -2 rounds )

-Cool down jog 1K

Total 5.95K @ 45:03

Watch workout benefit assessment : pace. Cmon watch, 6x400m , clearly anaerobic.



27 April 2020

RUN 5K @ 29:46 + JOG 2K
Went 'comfortable' for 4K, had around 6'/km easy. Then went hard at the 5th km, like 95%, did 5:11. Then 2 slow kms.
Total 7.K @ 46:55

Watch workout benefit assessment : VO2max (training for long time above lactic threshold). Not sure, felt more like pace, but then again that 5th all out km might have done the job.



I feel lighter on my feet, fast, fit. Watch says VO2 max is still 43 but i am improving. It also says my estimated 5K PR now is down to 25:07 which is the fastest estimation that ive seen on that watch.
Nice.
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3928 on: April 30, 2020, 03:04:09 pm »
+3
29 April 2020

RUN 6.68K @ 42:01
Went fast for 5K(28:09) , then very easy cool down for the rest.
28:09 5K was pretty, it was fast and tiring but not near time trial.

Watch workout benefit assessment : VO2max , agree.
VO2 max estimation , 44 , UP!
5K race time estimation : 24:35, first time i see sub-25 on this watch!  :headbang: :highfive: :ibrunning:
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3929 on: May 01, 2020, 08:15:48 am »
+3
And now, the million dollar question:
How do i level up? Just keep running and whatever happens? Or i need to do it more structured?

My current 'ideal' plan is : 3 days on - 1 off.
Ideal i mean that practically i don't get to keep it. Maybe it's for the better, 3-1 seems too much. Maybe 2-1 is better? Or alretnating 2-1 and 3-1. Something like that.

Hereis the 3-1 setup.
Day 1 : 5K fast + couple of kms slow.
Day 2 : long slow run, about 1 hour ( currently about 8' km pave with 5K PR pace  being around 5' so 60% effort? )
Day 3 : Intervals, lately 6-8*400m with 2 minutes wakling rest, will mix that up with longer distances sprints but about 30 minutes total.
Day 4 : rest

Is that too much? Too little? Something missing? Something done wrong? e.g. slow run should be slower? Maybe longer?

If it was 2-1 i would go like:
Day 1 : 5K fast + couple of kms slow.
Day 2 : long slow run
Day 4 : rest
Day 4: HIIT
Day 5 : long slow run
Day 6 : rest

Does that look better?

:lololol: :highfive: :ibrunning:
« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 11:13:01 am by vag »
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?