Author Topic: Age vs VO2max  (Read 983455 times)

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Raptor

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3135 on: May 19, 2016, 07:18:35 am »
+2
I usually stretch the quads/hip flexors during the breaks between sets of other stuff, in the gym. Otherwise I wouldn't stretch. So I go to this incline bench press, and put my knee at the bottom of the chair, and the chair keeps my shin at a 45 degree angle. And there I can stretch my quads/hip flexors etc in all kinds of ways during the breaks between sets of other exercises. I do that every time I go to the gym.

adarqui

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3136 on: May 19, 2016, 01:22:24 pm »
0
damn.. im not sure to be honest.

the sprint/bound work you're doing shouldn't be killing your strength, IMHO..  It should actually be helping it. Perhaps 1 rest day following the track workout, then lifting would have produced much better results? for example, your cns could just be too friend to lift the day after.

the thing that's weird is the "still broken part".. you just feel completely dead under the bar? that's also going to carry over to your hang power clean i'd imagine.. so if you're feeling dead and hitting near PR's on HPC, I imagine you probably have alot more in the tank.

but I really don't know.. the fact that you've been "dead" when it comes to squatting and such for so long, that's the odd thing.

perhaps you could try adding in the rest day prior to lifting.. and/or getting in extra calories the day prior.. also perhaps some caffeine? dno just something to try and get you out of this "broken/dead" feeling.

He's probably in some kind of chronic fatigue phase right now... reminds me of the Dan Pfaff "acute relieving syndrome" vs "chronic fatigue syndrome" antithesis.


Yes, it is not CNS, CNS is fine. Power movements feel great, i keep getting sprints and bounds lifetime PRs weekly, push press and HPC are pretty close to lifetime PRs too. Other weight exercises are fine too, i am having steady linear progress at everything. If i allowed this 2-3 kg weight gain to match the BW of those quoted PRS i am sure i would match and top them within a month or so.
It is all about quads and squat, there is this fatigue/soreness/slight pain feeling at both eccentric and concentric, around the sticking point ( half to quarter squat depth ), at the middle of vastus lateralis.
It is either some kind of chronic fatigue from the GPP program, too much tightness, OR , i am injured, i strained it somewhere in the way and didn't notice. I doubt the last one though.
I am leaning towards incredible tightness, i am still not stretching or doing anything about mobility/SMR at all. I've been going practically non-stop for 8 months, at pretty intense volume and intensity, on and off the weight room, yet i am stretching like once every 2 months. Duh!

Don't see how it could be some kind of strain, yet you are PR'n on sprints and bounds etc.. sprints/bounds would be wrecked if you had a strain in your quads. Same thing for fatigue basically. I'd rule those out.

What's preventing you from stretching (even if it's just quads) after your track workout? It's actually in the program, you just missed that part. So follow the program exactly as specified. :ninja: :)

Also try the LTMP stuff when you squat; stretch quads between every set, nice and relaxed, 15-30s.. Just work up to something moderate (like ~10RM and only do 5 perhaps), just to see how you feel. I imagine your quads will feel very loose if you do those stretches in between sets.

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3137 on: May 20, 2016, 04:41:48 am »
+1
^Agree about strain. Don't know about fatigue, i was thinking about some kind of 'fatigue strain' , like the stress fractures but in smaller and muscular scale, something like a chronic-fatigue-induced-soreness, hope those terms make sense to describe how it feels?
I also searched a bit about quadriceps tendonitis. The causes are pretty matching to my case ( prolonged volume and intensity overuse ), but the symptoms are usually closer to the knee and more front, my bugging area is centered at this classic middle outer quads spot.
I should just commit to stretching for start. What prevents me? My stupid mindset. I just can't feel it as a part of the program, i keep neglecting it / snubbing it. You can find many posts in here that i am trying to motivate myself to stretch more, but the result is always the same, not the desired one.
I'll try a bit more. Will add the stretch-quads-between-squat-sets too, i always avoided that because stretching hinders strength etc but that is stupid now, the weights i can currently squat are way below my standards so i shouldn't care.
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

T0ddday

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3138 on: May 20, 2016, 07:04:23 am »
+2
^Agree about strain. Don't know about fatigue, i was thinking about some kind of 'fatigue strain' , like the stress fractures but in smaller and muscular scale, something like a chronic-fatigue-induced-soreness, hope those terms make sense to describe how it feels?
I also searched a bit about quadriceps tendonitis. The causes are pretty matching to my case ( prolonged volume and intensity overuse ), but the symptoms are usually closer to the knee and more front, my bugging area is centered at this classic middle outer quads spot.
I should just commit to stretching for start. What prevents me? My stupid mindset. I just can't feel it as a part of the program, i keep neglecting it / snubbing it. You can find many posts in here that i am trying to motivate myself to stretch more, but the result is always the same, not the desired one.
I'll try a bit more. Will add the stretch-quads-between-squat-sets too, i always avoided that because stretching hinders strength etc but that is stupid now, the weights i can currently squat are way below my standards so i shouldn't care.

The stretching inhibits power thing is very overblown and mostly true of the hamstrings.  Athletes run fastest when they stretch the same as they do at practice... The problem is we get to meet means have all this downtown and we are nervous and as a result stretch a bunch to stay loose and dissipate nervous energy... Holding hamstring stretches way to long and then we run slower...

Stretching is hard.  It's boring.  I agree w raptors advice but also add it as a workout.   In the squat rack set the bar low in the pins and do circles (walk over duck under) for time... Also I like to include high box toe up bss mostly for the stretch... Do a set with hip firing then after each set get in some loaded or unloaded work on the quads and hip flexor, doing it for reps like its weight training in the workout make it much more achievable...

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3139 on: May 21, 2016, 12:28:24 pm »
+1
Ok, thanks everyone for the insight!

19 May 2016

Bodyweight@session : ~86kg
Soreness : none
Injuries/aches : none

T0DDDAY-BASED ALTERNATING GYM-TRACK SPLIT

Week #5
Gym day #2

PUSH PRESS:
5@20kg
5@30kg
3@40kg
3@50kg
1@60kg , ties  :personal-record:
-Didn't push coz i didn't do them for 2 weeks. Went nice, 50kg triple was easier than previous times too.

ATG SQUAT:
5@20kg
5@30kg
5@40kg
5@50kg
5@60kg
3@70kg
2@80kg
-So i decided to relearn squat. Went off the cage, doing true ATG. Damn, it's a looong way down with 50cm/20'' shins and femurs.
Went good, 80kg felt better than the usual little-below-parallel squats that i do.
Also did various quad and hip flexor stretches between each and every set, this is a nice way to put some adequate stretching quantity in my life.

DIPS:
6@BW ( -2 reps )
6@BW
6@BW
PUSH-UPS to failure: 20 ( +2 reps )
-Little rusty from not doing them for 2 weeks. Nice pushup finisher.

DEAD HANG CHINUPS:
5@BW
5@BW
5@BW
CHEST SUPPORTED HORIZONTAL ROWS MACHINE: 18@40kg
-Decided to add some chinups. Movement was weird, haven't done them for 2 years or so. Crazy how much reversing grip changes things.

SLANT BENCH LEG RAISES:
14@BW
12@BW
-Damn hard.

45 DEGREE HYPEREXTENSIONS:
15@BW
15@BW
-Focused on driving movement with glutes and hamstrings. Felt it all at the back though, lol.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2016, 12:34:59 pm by vag »
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

adarqui

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3140 on: May 21, 2016, 01:33:45 pm »
0
ATG SQUAT:
5@20kg
5@30kg
5@40kg
5@50kg
5@60kg
3@70kg
2@80kg
-So i decided to relearn squat. Went off the cage, doing true ATG. Damn, it's a looong way down with 50cm/20'' shins and femurs.
Went good, 80kg felt better than the usual little-below-parallel squats that i do.
Also did various quad and hip flexor stretches between each and every set, this is a nice way to put some adequate stretching quantity in my life.

niice!!

 :highfive:

and ya.. it's a great way to get some flexibility training in, while also improving ROM for the lift itself. I've personally never felt any negatives effects from it; ie, some kind of inhibition during reps due to stretching. If you did feel any of that, you can always just do shorter holds (~1-2s) and keep alternating limbs etc, more dynamic but still controlled/relaxed. Either way, i've only experienced positives from it, hope you do too.



Quote
45 DEGREE HYPEREXTENSIONS:
15@BW
15@BW
-Focused on driving movement with glutes and hamstrings. Felt it all at the back though, lol.

were you doing them like this?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh45myksaEs" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh45myksaEs</a>

that's a good video.. basically how I perform them. I don't arch or try to over extend at the top. Instead I really focus on hips and keep my back neutral. You may still feel some of it in your back, those muscles are def working, but, you really want to get most of the tension in the hamstrings/glutes.

pC!

adarqui

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3141 on: June 04, 2016, 01:45:49 pm »
+1
bump! whatsup? you resting?

pc!

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3142 on: June 06, 2016, 04:33:28 am »
+1
Hey. Still here, last two weeks have been hectic at work. Drained me physically and mentally, didn't have courage or mood to workout. At the back of my head i also had the resting thing too, like everyone else in here i am unable to rest myself on demand to heal up sth, i just try to train around it. So forced rest sometimes is a blessing.
Getting back at it today hopefully.
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

LBSS

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3143 on: June 06, 2016, 08:51:26 am »
0
Hey. Still here, last two weeks have been hectic at work. Drained me physically and mentally, didn't have courage or mood to workout. At the back of my head i also had the resting thing too, like everyone else in here i am unable to rest myself on demand to heal up sth, i just try to train around it. So forced rest sometimes is a blessing.
Getting back at it today hopefully.

 :uhcomeon:
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3144 on: June 06, 2016, 09:40:28 am »
0
What? I didn't. Are we interpreting courage differently? I am referring to physical courage. I meant i was too tired. What the fuck is wrong with that?


Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

LBSS

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3145 on: June 06, 2016, 09:57:38 am »
0
nothing wrong with it, just seems extreme under the circumstances! courage connotes bravery; the opposite is cowardice. so it comes across like you're being really, really hard on yourself. that's all.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3146 on: June 06, 2016, 10:19:25 am »
0
Yup, we interpret it differently. But you couldn't know. Well, 'courage' is a Greek word that indeed is originally used just as you described ( or as wikipedia describes ). Even the physical aspect of courage has to do with bravery, to deal with the physical limitation. However, in everyday Greek, we ( probably falsely ) also use it to just denote being too tired to do something, like so tired it takes bravery to overcome it, but not meaning the bravery literally. It is a way of being pompous about the tired statement. It is also most probably wrong if you ask a literature teacher, but it is still very common.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2016, 10:23:43 am by vag »
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

adarqui

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3147 on: June 06, 2016, 01:47:47 pm »
+1
Hey. Still here, last two weeks have been hectic at work. Drained me physically and mentally, didn't have courage or mood to workout. At the back of my head i also had the resting thing too,

ah damn. was probably a good thing that you got some rest in, after all, you consistently go hard. maybe your quads will be miraculously fixed too once you get back under the bar. :F



Quote
like everyone else in here i am unable to rest myself on demand to heal up sth, i just try to train around it. So forced rest sometimes is a blessing.

ya that seems to be a major problem EVERYWHERE. many of us are too addicted to training. if we're hurt, we know we should rest, but we train around it because "There are no rainy days" <insert motivational commercial, campaign, movie, etc>. We most often give solid advice to others, which includes rest or progressing slower; but we don't heed that advice ourselves. We also have this fear that gains will disappear if we rest, and in some cases they begin to, or at least feel like they do. If gains are not disappearing, but simply feel like they are disappearing (physically or mentally), well that's enough to wreck us mentally - and get us back out there.

There's this one running article I posted a while back where Lagat talks about how American runners simply can't rest. He says that in his experience, American runners feel like not training for even just one day, will lead to them getting worse. On the flip-side, Lagat takes one day off per week mandatory, runs much less than traditional runners (~70 miles or less per week) and takes 5 weeks off per month. He's looked at by most as having serious longevity in the sport; he's still performing/competing at the highest levels and he's over 40.

That shouldn't be news to us.. we've seen that mentality on this forum (admittedly, myself mostly), other forums, everywhere. We've seen professional athletes "suck it up" and play through pain/injury, as if it's a badge of honor.

I think we can draw an analogy between this mindset, and a corporate/wall street mindset (even the tech startup world). They have a similar issue in their culture; work every day, sleep is for the week. One of the very best ways to grow our intellect, is to get enough sleep. Yet, many of these folks wear 'lack of sleep' (~4 hours or less) as a badge of honor. Interestingly enough, probably the only way to succeed with no sleep in business, or no rest in athletics, is drugs; cocaine/adderall in business, various PED's in athletics.

Myself personally, i've been trying to change my own idea of rest into that of a form of training in itself; seemingly successfully so far. By considering rest days as more of a form of "STIM" (recovery as CNS stimulation), a mandatory method of repair, and by thinking about rest as a form of converting more IIa/IIx fibers, I think i've tricked myself into wanting to rest more than train. I now have forced mandatory rest days following any training day, and subsequent rest days if I feel like I won't be able to give 100%. This will most likely only work well if, when I do train, I train pretty hard (@ a high intensity). But needless to say, i've been trying to reform some concepts that have been deeply embedded within my mind, by various forces, from a very long time ago (25+ years). I've tossed around the idea of trying to achieve significant vert/performance gains without any weightlifting for a long time (i'm sure you can remember most of those instances), which to most, sounds ludicrous (almost rightfully so). But now, having not lifted for so long, while still training, I think i'm at the point where I might be able to start piecing it together (injuries permitting). Going this route, rest becomes an essential tool, IMHO.



Quote
Getting back at it today hopefully.

nice!!

pc!

FP

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3148 on: June 06, 2016, 02:09:36 pm »
+1
rest as a form of converting more IIa/IIx fibers

I remember reading about this in Supertraining, lol. I think the context is a little different though, the rest period that was referred to was prolonged rest, like more than a week.

Yup, we interpret it differently. But you couldn't know. Well, 'courage' is a Greek word that indeed is originally used just as you described ( or as wikipedia describes ). Even the physical aspect of courage has to do with bravery, to deal with the physical limitation. However, in everyday Greek, we ( probably falsely ) also use it to just denote being too tired to do something, like so tired it takes bravery to overcome it, but not meaning the bravery literally. It is a way of being pompous about the tired statement. It is also most probably wrong if you ask a literature teacher, but it is still very common.

Also, this is kind of cool. I think both versions of the word are defined by the concept of willpower: you need willpower to push yourself to do something courageous, but you also need willpower to push yourself to train when you are really tired. So they're not so different after all.

vag

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Re: Age vs Vertical
« Reply #3149 on: June 07, 2016, 05:41:53 am »
0
Hey. Still here, last two weeks have been hectic at work. Drained me physically and mentally, didn't have courage or mood to workout. At the back of my head i also had the resting thing too,

ah damn. was probably a good thing that you got some rest in, after all, you consistently go hard. maybe your quads will be miraculously fixed too once you get back under the bar. :F


Yeah, that's how i fixed my quad a few years ago when i kept training around a bad strain for 8 months ( lololol ) , took a 3 months break, boom, fixed.

I like your concept about seeing resting as a prescribed training element, same concept with stretch/SMR. Not sure i can convince me yet but it could work. It's true after all, it is not a gimmick, it is just a different ( correct ) way of seeing it. If you are an athlete you have your coach to worry about that, but we are both the athlete and the coach, but we keep neglecting the latter.



Yup, we interpret it differently. But you couldn't know. Well, 'courage' is a Greek word that indeed is originally used just as you described ( or as wikipedia describes ). Even the physical aspect of courage has to do with bravery, to deal with the physical limitation. However, in everyday Greek, we ( probably falsely ) also use it to just denote being too tired to do something, like so tired it takes bravery to overcome it, but not meaning the bravery literally. It is a way of being pompous about the tired statement. It is also most probably wrong if you ask a literature teacher, but it is still very common.

Also, this is kind of cool. I think both versions of the word are defined by the concept of willpower: you need willpower to push yourself to do something courageous, but you also need willpower to push yourself to train when you are really tired. So they're not so different after all.

Actually, it is not different versions, not even just synonyms, it is the exact same word. It is 'couragio' in Greek.
But you are right, it is all about will, the root of the word is 'heart' , here is the wiktionary entry :
Quote
Borrowing from Old French corage (French: courage), from Vulgar Latin *coraticum, from Latin cor ‎(“heart”). Distantly related to cardiac ‎(“of the heart”), which is from Greek, but from the same Proto-Indo-European root.

Searched it a bit more. The greek wiktionary entry says the word has 2 definitions, quoting translated:
1. Tharos*
2. The physical and mental endurance you need in order to continue a difficult/painful effort.**
Example : I wakled 4 hours in good pace but i don't have the courage to carry on.

*This is a greek word for mental courage,  something like bravery but not exactly bravery since there is a different word for that.
**This second definition and example ( funny how wiktionary chose a training example ) is the one i had in mind. I don't see this definition in the English wiktionary page for courage.

So I used the word courage to express something that is correct in Greek with this word, but although it is the exact same word, it seems i can't use it to express the same thing in English.
Pretty cool!



Aaaaaand, here we go again!

Bodyweight@session : ~85.5kg
Soreness : none
Injuries/aches : none

T0DDDAY-BASED ALTERNATING GYM-TRACK SPLIT

Week #6
Gym day #1


HANG POWER CLEAN:
5@20kg
5@30kg
3@40kg
3@50kg
-Ok. Weight was light but body forgot the sequence.

ATG SQUAT:
5@20kg
5@30kg
5@40kg
5@50kg
5@60kg
5@70kg
-Very nice. Quads fresh of course. 5@70kg lightweight, able to do last rep with strict pause.
Didn't push it, gonna advance slow, relearn squat as i said last time.

BENCH PRESS:
5@60kg ( -2.5 kg )
5@60kg ( -2.5 kg )
5@60kg ( -2.5 kg )
15@45kg ( -5 kg ) , ( -2 reps )
-Nice.

DEAD HANG PULLUPS:
5@BW ( -2 reps )
5@BW ( -1 rep )
5@BW ( -1 rep )
LAT PULLDOWN: 15@130lbs ( -5 reps )
-Weak.

LEG PRESS CALF 'RAISE':
12@150lbs
12@200lbs
12@250lbs
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?