Author Topic: Vertical Jump enthusiast trying to dunk  (Read 21547 times)

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LBSS

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Re: Vertical Jump enthusiast trying to dunk
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2016, 01:32:34 pm »
+1
i think the SL stuff is valuable regardless because of how imbalanced he is. also yeah DLs are not essential. agree to disagree, i still think he should do them.

also, dreyth, good point about depth jumps at his strength level. he should do really low ones, if at all.
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Merrick

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Re: Vertical Jump enthusiast trying to dunk
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2016, 06:19:27 pm »
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i think the SL stuff is valuable regardless because of how imbalanced he is. also yeah DLs are not essential. agree to disagree, i still think he should do them.

also, dreyth, good point about depth jumps at his strength level. he should do really low ones, if at all.

Curious... what exactly are the reasons you think he should deadlift?

alestor91

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Re: Vertical Jump enthusiast trying to dunk
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2016, 06:29:35 pm »
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I'm training my DL jump. And btw, my squat is currently at 122 for 3x5. I have a safety squat bar that weighs 62 pounds.

alestor91

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Re: Vertical Jump enthusiast trying to dunk
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2016, 06:34:12 pm »
0
-   If JUMPING is your goal, personally I think deadlifts suck.  You'd be better off with RDL's and with more volume.  Your current routine consists of 10 total reps of posterior chain work with 0 eccentric training for a WHOLE WEEK

-   Also, what is your goal?  SL jump or DL jump?  This routine (if you replace deadlifts with a better p-chain exercise) is fine for DL jumping but not for SL jumping. 

-  You can do sets and reps for Max jumping.  But, I (and many others) personally like to just have 1 set of doing X jumps and stopping at performance drop off, resting ~45 seconds between jumps.

-  With 3x / week 3x5 squatting, you better be eating enough.
 
-  I prefer doing max jumps before depth jumps.  If you stop jumping at drop off, you will still be relatively fresh and properly warmed up for depth jumps and be able to put in quality work on them.  Just take your time getting properly warmed up for the jump session.  Either way can work though.

-   You can also take out the calf raises on Wednesday.  I think 2x a week of 3x20 is plenty.

-  So yeah, main thing is replace the deadlifts.  You might want to reduce squatting volume (which is fine since frequency is high) to accomodate higher volume of p-chain stuff (whichever exercise you decide to do). 

-  If your goal is SL jumping, you gotta change a lot more things lol

I appreciate it! I'm just lifting right now and haven't actually done any of the jumps yet because my PT told me to wait another month or so. What is so bad about deadlifts if you don't mind me asking? There's even a study on deadlifts and vertical jump improvement lol:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25226322

tooslow

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Re: Vertical Jump enthusiast trying to dunk
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2016, 06:51:55 pm »
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I think Merrick is just saying that deadlifts aren't the best exercise for improving vert. They will improve it because you will be able to produce more force but squats, rdls and calf raises will probably be optimal.

FP

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Re: Vertical Jump enthusiast trying to dunk
« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2016, 07:06:42 pm »
0
i think the SL stuff is valuable regardless because of how imbalanced he is. also yeah DLs are not essential. agree to disagree, i still think he should do them.

also, dreyth, good point about depth jumps at his strength level. he should do really low ones, if at all.

Curious... what exactly are the reasons you think he should deadlift?
I think RDL's are better but here are my arguments in favor of deadlifts:

A lot of people on this forum have had lower back problems. Raptor, gukl, maxent and myself just to name a few. It sucks not being able to do most training because of back injury, which is what might happen if training lower back isn't taken seriously.

Also because the DL is more intensive than RDL, if he does DL, his DL numbers will improve faster than doing RDL. When you get to a certain level, you can do singles with DL but you can't really do that with RDL. Singles are more specific to jumping.

I remember Joe Defranco saying in a podcast about VJ that he thought the spinal erectors were more important for the DLRVJ than calves, they definitely shouldn't be ignored.

Merrick

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Re: Vertical Jump enthusiast trying to dunk
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2016, 07:43:56 pm »
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-  I would bet 95% of coaches out there would argue in favor or calves over low back for RUNNING jumps.

-  There are studies that show ANYTHING can improve ANYTHING.  You gotta really look at the context of the studies, and even then, I never said deadlifts don't help, there's just better ways.

-  Also, deadlifts, ESPECIALLY for a double leg jumper, would be an assistance exercise, with the SQUAT being the primary exercise.  Squats being done in higher intensity and lower reps would be all he needs from a "intensive" perspective/ for "singles"

-  Deadlifts (properly done) train ham/glute hip extension CONCENTRICALLY.  There are plenty of stuff that do the same such as RDL's, hypers, reverse hypers, BSS with foot far out BUT THESE HAVE AN ECCENTRIC COMPONENT WHICH YOU NEED and can be done with more safety for higher reps/volume.  It's always good to have your p-chain exercise in higher reps to assist the primary squats. 

-  A tried and true method for DL jumping is squatting heavy with higher rep/volume ASSISTANCE exercise in the form of a glute/ham movement.  Deadlifts are a poor choice for an assistance exercise because of my previous point AS WELL as the following 2 points

- Deadlifts (esp for beginners) are done very low back dominantly.  You will get enough low back work from any other exercise + squats for your goal of increasing vertical.  Doing heavy low back dominant work in the form of deadlifts may not be good for your gluteal recruitment patterns. 

-  Deadlifts also drain the CNS alot more than they are worth (although for a beginner who will lift very low weights, this isn't a factor for now)


-  Doing deadlifts to strengthen the low back for low back problems is ridiculous.  Many people GET low back problems due to poor deadlifting form.  The low back problem is usually caused by other things such as posture, weak low abs, and WEAK GLUTES, NOT cause you're not doing enough strength work for them. 

-  If low back strength is the actual reason, back extensions (done low back dominantly and NOT glute dominantly) would be a better choice.  Why expend all that CNS and risk on deadlifts just to strengthen the low back when you can do a much more effective and safer method with back extensions
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 07:47:55 pm by Merrick »

alestor91

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Re: Vertical Jump enthusiast trying to dunk
« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2016, 07:57:51 pm »
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't deadlifts train the hamstrings/glutes eccentrically (because they lengthen when you straighten your legs) and the quads concentrically?

alestor91

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Re: Vertical Jump enthusiast trying to dunk
« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2016, 08:02:10 pm »
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Also what do you guys think about single leg leg presses with my bad leg to balance my limbs out?

tooslow

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Re: Vertical Jump enthusiast trying to dunk
« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2016, 08:13:35 pm »
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Also what do you guys think about single leg leg presses with my bad leg to balance my limbs out?

Why not just do extra volume with BSS on your weak side?

alestor91

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Re: Vertical Jump enthusiast trying to dunk
« Reply #40 on: February 26, 2016, 08:17:34 pm »
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Also what do you guys think about single leg leg presses with my bad leg to balance my limbs out?

Why not just do extra volume with BSS on your weak side?

I see. I've never done bulgarian split squats before and my balance on my bad leg is atrocious right now.

alestor91

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Re: Vertical Jump enthusiast trying to dunk
« Reply #41 on: February 26, 2016, 08:22:04 pm »
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i think the SL stuff is valuable regardless because of how imbalanced he is. also yeah DLs are not essential. agree to disagree, i still think he should do them.

also, dreyth, good point about depth jumps at his strength level. he should do really low ones, if at all.

Curious... what exactly are the reasons you think he should deadlift?
I think RDL's are better but here are my arguments in favor of deadlifts:

A lot of people on this forum have had lower back problems. Raptor, gukl, maxent and myself just to name a few. It sucks not being able to do most training because of back injury, which is what might happen if training lower back isn't taken seriously.

Also because the DL is more intensive than RDL, if he does DL, his DL numbers will improve faster than doing RDL. When you get to a certain level, you can do singles with DL but you can't really do that with RDL. Singles are more specific to jumping.

I remember Joe Defranco saying in a podcast about VJ that he thought the spinal erectors were more important for the DLRVJ than calves, they definitely shouldn't be ignored.

Yeah my spinal erectors are VERY weak. I tried deadlifts and was struggling with 155 lol. My lower back has like half of the hypertrophy as my brother's, who has been lifting for a long time.

FP

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Re: Vertical Jump enthusiast trying to dunk
« Reply #42 on: February 26, 2016, 08:59:57 pm »
0
In the short term, sure, DL might not be as effective because your low back is doing a lot of the work. But in the long run, esp. with technique improvements, being able to do singles with DL's IMO will have a better carryover to max effort hip extension in a way that you can't get with higher RDL rep ranges or intensive squats.

Squat+RDL+back extension is less time efficient than squat+DL

Doing DL's once a week, working up to a single set of 5 with a rest day afterwards shouldn't really destroy your CNS..

Merrick

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Re: Vertical Jump enthusiast trying to dunk
« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2016, 11:39:56 pm »
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-  Who says RDL's don't train the low back?  The point of RDL's is it has a eccentric and reversal of weight that the deadlift does not have.  Why can't you do RDL singles?  People have done them..  They are just simply so much more beneficial vs deadlifts for athletes who already has squatting as the primary exercise.  If you want to deadlift, like I said, it will work too, but not because of the reasons mentioned so far.

-  If PURE max hip extension is desired, you need a horizontal loading exercise like hip thrusts or hypers/reverse hypers.   Deadlifts achieve similar hip extension torque as squats, while squats are more specific to his DL jumping goal, therefore this "MAX HIP EXTENSION" talk is nonsense.  No one needs heavy singles or doubles from deadlifts to achieve powerful hip extension.

-  Your low back is NOT WEAK... you are weak.  Everywhere (I know you were injured, not making fun of you).  If you are squatting 122 x 3 x 5, then your low back is not weak.  If you are struggling with deadlifts for 155lbs, then your legs are weak.  Again, why are you correlating deadlift strength with low back strength.  You are training to be an athlete.  Your deadlift should count if it's done glute/ham dominantly.  Sure some quads can get worked if your form makes it so like some people do, but it is still a glute/ham dominant pull if you do it right.  There are many strong low back deadlifters who get poor carryover to vert.

-  I never told him to do back extensions + RDL's.  I said forget your low back because it will get strengthened enough for vertical jumping goals simply from squats + any p-chain exercise.  I don't think ANYONE here does any low back specific work.  It get's taken care of if you are doing the main exercises already.

-  I know 1 x 5 deadlifts won't do much for his CNS.  Neither will 2-3 x 8-10 RDL's/BSS.  However, the 2nd will do a lot more for him short term AND long term.

-  BSS to work out that lagging leg is great.  Doesn't matter if your balance sucks.  Everyone's balance sucks at this exercise at first but like anything else, you'll adapt quickly.  It comes very fast.  Start light and just progressively overload like you would with anything else. 
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 11:44:18 pm by Merrick »

maxent

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Re: Vertical Jump enthusiast trying to dunk
« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2016, 11:45:39 pm »
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If you can do DL, then you should do them. it will assist your squat anyways. If you can't, well, then try to learn. The DL is actually a superior exercise to the squat for training athleticism according to some. Pavel has a lot of great propaganda on the lift. I can't DL without snap city action so i've forced myself to avoid the lift. I still do the RD even tho it's a partial exercise with dubious utility (i think) - but better than not having no pulling in your program .. probably.. lol.
Making a new strength setpoint of 75/100/150 on OHP/BP/BS.