Author Topic: 2011 D Rose  (Read 745 times)

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FP

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2011 D Rose
« on: February 25, 2021, 06:10:11 am »
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https://youtu.be/2v0g4nyveP8
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So I dont really watch bball too much but I come back to clips of this guy because he just moves so beautifully. I really love the super bouncy from all angles kind of players and D Rose is the perfect example. I think with my continuing to play ultimate, i want to embody at least a little bit of the spirt of his style. So this is an analysis of what qualities he presents and how I believe one could go about training them.

A - leg flexibility and rebound:  think the main things are his ludicrous flexibility of the groin and hamstrings and the ankles (supination and pronation). And then, at those extreme angles of flexibility, his force absorption and rebound is pretty extreme as well.
-as far as hamstrings go, during his accelerations he has this tremendous body lean but his thigh still goes parallel to the ground and often theres a lot of knee extension involved as well. Its like hes able to start his acceleration with top speed mechanics due to his ludicrous bounce. >> training for this would involve hamstring stretching, force production at full hamstring extension, and training hip force absorption rebound at similar angles.
-groin flexibility and very strong force absorption/rebound at that exaggerated side split leg angle. He's able to accelerate hard out of that position. >> training is pretty similar here as with hamstrings -> flexible groin and hip stability/force absorption+rebound at that side split angle.
-ankles!! He often comes to dead stops with this step into the midline of the body and his ankle becomes incredibly pronated at that time >> so ankle flexibility, stability at pronated ankle angles and groin and hip force absorption.

B- balance and this kind of really creative reactive footwork to adjust to many situations. He has some well established movement patterns that he uses frequently BUT he also mixes it up a lot and is seemingly able to generate a lot of force out of so many different positions.
- i think his balance comes partially from his upper body posture being really neutral - shoulders very low and back and his head juts out only a little bit. (EDIT: comparing his posture to others: even amongst those with good upper body posture, his is exceptional, almost like a gymnast)  This might allow him to move better multi-directionally because his body isnt weighed down forward because of forward shoulders or forward head posture >> so really thorough upper cross posture correction.
-hes really good at adjusting where he steps so hes never off balance. >> this is tough to train but i think moving through maze-like cone arrangements can improve someones dynamic decision making in regard to how footwork is used. A component to react to to bolster the step decision making could also be helpful.

C- bounce! Hes super tendon dominant and seems to move in a way thats very reliant on stretch reflex.
- so again, extreme hip stability because i think all the movements hes making originate from the hips and before that bounce motion can happen the hips first have to stabilize : absorb momentum before he can redirect it >> glute strengthening, assigning extra priority to glute medius and minimus for stabilizing laterally. Then plyos of all sorts, so the stabilization can happen dynamically.
-and then the bounce component >> plyos of all sorts to be able to explode out of the stable plant generated by the hips.

D redirecting momentum on sharp curves. One second hes moving forward, next second he makes this sharp curve type of movement - but he seems to keep all the momentum as if he were running in a straight line!! >> back to point A about groin and abductor extreme angles, as well as having the balance and step precision to make that follow through possible as well as having muscular strength in undertrained/unconventional areas and correct movement pattern to make it possible ( I feel like this is the toughest part, but I played ultimate with someone with a similar capability so I know its possible), the maze like run-throughs could help here too, adding in a serpentine component.

E - and hes also pretty light i suppose. So only lean muscle with no excess maybe except in areas where there needs to be stability.

So - extreme stability and flexibility in the hips, staying balanced while employing smart and quick footwork adjustments and enough tendon stiffness to explode into the next step. Im going to write up a more specific plan/schedule to achieve these goals. I imagine it would take a while, especially the footwork and building up tendon stiffness. It needs to be done super carefully.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2021, 07:10:15 am by FP »

CoolColJ

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Re: 2011 D Rose
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2021, 04:18:04 am »
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I would start at the feet/ankles first - if you have extremely strong feet and ankles, while having good mobility there, everything up chain can work way better.
That will give you the extreme angles you can apply force from and stop on a dime once everything is as strong

But everything else is pretty genetic, his thought process, reflexive tendencies and movement style would be hard to learn if you just aren't wired the same way neurally








FP

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Re: 2011 D Rose
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2021, 03:34:06 am »
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I would start at the feet/ankles first - if you have extremely strong feet and ankles, while having good mobility there, everything up chain can work way better.
That will give you the extreme angles you can apply force from and stop on a dime once everything is as strong

But everything else is pretty genetic, his thought process, reflexive tendencies and movement style would be hard to learn if you just aren't wired the same way neurally

Thats an interesting perspective. I think the ankles are undertrained in most people and connect to the hips working together to transfer force. Particularly i think the achilles tendon stiffness is the most important thing to train at that junction, through controlled eccentrics and plyos to rebound well. But its pretty tough because the ankle has so many angles to absorb and redirect force, probably training the movements themselves with higher volume would be one of the better ways to go about building tendon strength and maybe even the muscle component

As far as training non-ankle parts:
Personally i have had pretty bad upper cross most of my life and i think bad posture sets a low celing for how coordinated you can be during athletic movements.
I think that the hip is mostly responsible for stabilization and force absorption. The force travel starts at the ankle, travels through the leg and i believe the glute does the heavy work absorbing and redirecting that force. But with specificity applied you could work on glute stabilization in lots of different positions, and ive noticed that in some positions its pretty weak, which also limits the types of movements one can be good at, specifically the curves he runs.
As for movement style, reflexes and problem solving, yes, those things cant be trained as much, but movement variation with how he jukes can at least be trained a little bit.
The main thing to train is the bounce. If i can get the bounce even a percentage of his maybe new movement pattern avenues will open up.

But anyway, for me as an ultimate frisbee player i have to do this type of stuff while pretty fatigued so that plays a role as well.

But thanks for the input, i did mention ankles but didnt really put them in a priority role.



CoolColJ

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Re: 2011 D Rose
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2021, 12:06:47 am »
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As long as your achilles/calf complex is already strong enough to handle the loading, otherwise you get what I have right now, achilles tendon  tendinopathy.
Where the actual tendon itself gets micro damaged, similar to jumpers knee for the patella tendon, where rest does not heal it up, unlike tendonitus

Only ISO loading and then controlled weights has been able to get it back to a healthier state

So it's better to prevent it than try to fix it after it happens as tendon takes ages to heal, due to poor blood flow!

---

Pretty much everybody these days, due to computers and phone has upper body issues after a while, especially as you get older.
It's taken me over a year to fix mine to a decent level, but still have ways to go till I get back to mobility I had back in my 20s, where I could reach one arm over and another under behind my back and clasp my hands together.
The under part is not too bad, it's arm over the shoulder and behind is the problem - something still tight in the lat, pec and thoracic spine or all 3

This obviously effects everything from squatting, jumping, dunking and reaching

----

If your naturally good at modern style dancing or get good at it, you can approach the DRose style agility, once your lower body relative power and reactivity are good.
I think it's a nervous system, mindset, and swag that comes with it. Once you add force and behind it...
I used to breakdance when I was younger so I have a bit of that :)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbonWkHSTCM" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbonWkHSTCM</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBrJoZSAwGI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBrJoZSAwGI</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uqAV4pwt6U" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uqAV4pwt6U</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_l0hZlo28E" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_l0hZlo28E</a>

LBSS

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Re: 2011 D Rose
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2021, 11:53:48 am »
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cool videos. if i could go back in time and tell my child self one thing, it'd be, "learn to dance well."

and man, if you wanna see strong and mobile ankles...

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9jghLeYufQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9jghLeYufQ</a>
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

sunday: slow run two hours
monday: strenf
tuesday: easy run one hour
wednesday: speed/hills
thursday: easy run one hour
friday: strenf/easy run
saturday: tempo

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

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FP

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Re: 2011 D Rose
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2021, 09:11:27 pm »
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Yeah i think this hits a lot of the points, especially talking about balance, coordination and natural movement variety. Ive always been ass at dancing, my working memory and balance are kinda pretty bad to learn movements well. I need a lot of time to get even simpler moves down and i dont have the natural rhythm especially coordinating complex movements with music is tough.

My take is to just bang out a bunch of dot drill variations almost in a conditioning manner - builds sport specific endurance, is pretty plyometric, trains balance and it absolutely murders all the small stabilizer muscles in the legs and hips and hits the ankles pretty hard too.

But i guess dancing works too ;D