Poll

Should I continue with 3x8 or should I switch to 3x5?

Continue with 3x8 then later on switch to 3x5
5 (62.5%)
Switch now to 3x5 since that's enough volume for proper hypertrophy
3 (37.5%)

Total Members Voted: 8

Author Topic: 3x8 or 3x5?  (Read 22445 times)

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Raptor

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Re: 3x8 or 3x5?
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2010, 07:27:59 am »
0
Well yeah I'm kind of abandoning speed and explosive work. My plan was to use workout C for that, on Tuesday. Jump squats/power cleans/depth jumps at that time.

So:

WO A1
WO B1
WO C
rest
WO A2
WO B2
rest

steven-miller

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Re: 3x8 or 3x5?
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2010, 12:25:20 pm »
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I agree with Lance here, because I think that this mind set is broken and might not lead to where you actually want to go. Although hypertrophy and strength have a lot to do with each other, the primary goal can only be one of those two and it should not be hypertrophy if you are an athlete that needs basic strength. Your primary goal needs to be to get as strong as possible with whatever hypertrophy comes along with that. And you need to measure your progress accordingly, namely how much stronger you got in a specific period of time by work weights going up instead of circumference of your thighs or massiveness of your glute muscles.
I think what Lance means with "bodybuilding type training" is that you think about hypertrophy increases more than strength increases rather than the topic of rep ranges. And I agree with that, although I think that there will be an optimum rep range that will work best for a specific goal in a specific situation. I am personally not a fan of the egalitarian thinking that everything works best. Because that is not how the universe operates, but that again is another topic altogether. It's just that in this field, where most of the exercise science is just either crap or does not have clear implications for the real world (think studies done an the cellular level), there is hardly enough objective, scientific data for everyone to see and draw conclusions from about what actually works best and what is not. So trainers and trainees will come to their own conclusion and it boils down to who you believe has the most experience and the best knowledge and data to support their findings. But just because this is the current stage of practice does not mean that everything works best. Again, it is not. [/rant]

But yes, you need to think about getting strong and forget about that nonsense that you need a hypertrophy phase of training where that is your primary goal.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2010, 12:27:34 pm by steven-miller »

Raptor

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Re: 3x8 or 3x5?
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2010, 02:54:20 pm »
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Well yes they go hand in hand. Anyway, I'm going to do this and see what happens. Call it an experiment.

Kellyb

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Re: 3x8 or 3x5?
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2010, 04:22:28 pm »
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Because I feel like I've kinda maxed up neurally for the amount of muscle I have right now. So I need more muscle and then further on, less fat (a lot less fat if I want to jump well, especially off one leg). Obviously at my strength levels and time spent with strength work (which has been pretty solid in the last years though) I can't really have maxed out neurally, but I just feel the need for more hypertrophy for a while, and then switch to lower rep schemes to improve neurally on that added muscle (strength work).

I want more posterior chain muscle specifically. Maybe I should go with more reps in my assistance exercises and keep the reps kind of low in the squats? Like for lunges/one-leg RDLs etc go for 8-12, and for squats go with 3x8 and 3x5?

Raptor, it sounds to me here like you have conflicting goals. You want to get bigger, but you also want to get leaner. I hope you're not planning on trying to do that simultaneously because eating to get leaner while lifting to get bigger won't do much for you in the hypertrophy department. Glute and hamstring mass is relatively easy to come by in comparison to overall quadricep mass, it's just that most people don't do direct glute work.  The hardest muscle to significantly hypertrophy (in terms of effort, fatigue, and overall tonnage) is the vastus medialis/lower quad region, especially for ectomorphs and long legged individuals.  Make sure you throw in some direct glute work in the form of manual reverse hypers or barbell hip thrusts for your assistance exercises and that'll take care of your glutes.  Same for hamstrings in the form of glute hams or even leg curls.

Raptor

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Re: 3x8 or 3x5?
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2010, 04:57:28 pm »
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Oh you bet. I don't care if I pack fat right now... I'll shed that down later. I'm at ~15% bodyfat right now. My diet isn't really anything... I'm trying to eat meat and eggs, I won't drink milk (intolerance) and take about 100g of protein (if you're to believe the label) each day by protein shakes...

I can't really eat much on my own, I have to struggle hard to do it but hey, I try. If I take my weight at ~85-86 kg (from a stable 81 kg) and then carefully shed fat later in the spring to get to ~75 kg (I have a lot of fat to shed off) then I should be great.

Hip thrusts make my knee pain reappear ... I think for some reason there's pressure on it when I get "up" on them. And I kind of like the squat + unilateral thing that I'm currently doing.

THE PROBLEM right now is that my left shoulder, elbow and wrist are hurting like hell because of the low bar position in the squat. That's a huge one. It gets worse and worse as I'm advancing. I feel "kind of" comfortable with my right arm in this position but my left arm just agonizes - it can't really get over the bar (the palm) in the position unless my palm/wrist is bend at 90 degrees or maybe even more. I think this is the same reason why I can't keep a clean racked on my shoulders... the elbows just don't come up. If they would, then the bar would sit in the middle of my neck.

The second GREAT problem is the bar keeps on slowly sliding down my back as I do my squat reps... that loads the elbows and creates great pain.

steven-miller

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Re: 3x8 or 3x5?
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2010, 07:22:25 pm »
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Well yes they go hand in hand. Anyway, I'm going to do this and see what happens. Call it an experiment.

Yes, they DO go hand in hand, but that does not mean that hypertrophy needs to be your primary goal when what you actually want is strength and power. You think, because of your training history of slow progress (due to bad decision making, "experiments" and injuries), that you cannot possibly get stronger without doing a "hypertrophy phase" first when getting stronger should be your primary goal and it would actually happen really, really fast if you would just do what has worked for others over and over again and finally, for the first time, EAT like an athlete. And surprise, your muscles would grow without this being your primary concern.

Instead you are going to label this "experiment" a hypertrophy phase, just because you don't want to call it strength training, since that would make progress, or lack there-off, measurable and obvious. And you are paying for this comfort with your training time and with higher risk of injury (as Lance already pointed out). And another thing I can tell you and I bet that this was the reason for this bogus in the first place: This hypertrophy phase won't make gains easier later on. It will be just as hard - it's just that you will wait for the results a lot longer.

n00bEM

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Re: 3x8 or 3x5?
« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2010, 12:16:46 am »
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I think the general consensus is: Do the Session A: 3x8
                                                     and Session B: 3x5

but do your bounds, barbell skips, depth drops, sprints before hand or you're going to spin your wheels again. I did a couple years of hypertrophy work for my glutes, hamstrings and quads. Sure it made me more athletic, but I'm certain I'd be jumping a good number of inches higher than I am now, if only I had included my plyos while getting bigger.

That's the reason I was the guy RDL'ing 170kg for reps but only single leg jumping 31 inches. If I actually trained to jump higher (What a shock if you want vert huh?) and let the muscle gain take care of itself through getting stronger and diet, I would be jumping higher than I am now. That is my opinion and experience.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 12:19:43 am by n00bEM »
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Raptor

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Re: 3x8 or 3x5?
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2010, 02:31:47 am »
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Yes but I won't be able to jump this winter since it will be cold outside, and I don't WANT to jump while gaining weight (muscle and fat). I want to only strength train.

And no, I can't "eat like an athlete". I already have irritable bowel syndrome and feel like puking all day long (literally all day long) so that's a no-no for me. I try to but I can't. The word "eat" make me feel like I want to puke.

adarqui

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Re: 3x8 or 3x5?
« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2010, 02:39:33 am »
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Yes but I won't be able to jump this winter since it will be cold outside, and I don't WANT to jump while gaining weight (muscle and fat). I want to only strength train.

If you still care alot about vert, I personally would get some stationary reactive work in: depth jumps, tucks, pogos, single leg drop step jumps, etc.

^^ Just so you have less work to do once it starts heating up again..

peace




Raptor

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Re: 3x8 or 3x5?
« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2010, 05:18:40 am »
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Yeah I might do that on Workout C. Was planning on doing depth jumps once per week.

The problem is - my bodyweight will increase and it's not really smart to do depth jumps and stuff like that I guess.

adarqui

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Re: 3x8 or 3x5?
« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2010, 05:20:19 am »
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Yeah I might do that on Workout C. Was planning on doing depth jumps once per week.

The problem is - my bodyweight will increase and it's not really smart to do depth jumps and stuff like that I guess.

so then do LOW-LEVEL reactive work, tucks, pogos, quick lunges, submax drops, VJ's, jump rope, etc..

pc

Raptor

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Re: 3x8 or 3x5?
« Reply #41 on: November 02, 2010, 05:46:21 am »
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Well yeah... I will... :-[

LBSS

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Re: 3x8 or 3x5?
« Reply #42 on: November 02, 2010, 11:04:54 am »
0
I think the general consensus is: Do the Session A: 3x8
                                                     and Session B: 3x5

but do your bounds, barbell skips, depth drops, sprints before hand or you're going to spin your wheels again. I did a couple years of hypertrophy work for my glutes, hamstrings and quads. Sure it made me more athletic, but I'm certain I'd be jumping a good number of inches higher than I am now, if only I had included my plyos while getting bigger.

That's the reason I was the guy RDL'ing 170kg for reps but only single leg jumping 31 inches. If I actually trained to jump higher (What a shock if you want vert huh?) and let the muscle gain take care of itself through getting stronger and diet, I would be jumping higher than I am now. That is my opinion and experience.

Strong post. This has been my experience, as well. I can DL 370# at a bw of 168 but my BEST running jumps are 30.5". That's because I spent a long time wanting to get stronger to get my vert better but not actually jumping while I was doing it. In retrospect, this was beyond stupid.

Quote from: Raptor
Yes but I won't be able to jump this winter since it will be cold outside, and I don't WANT to jump while gaining weight (muscle and fat). I want to only strength train.

This is dumb. See above.

Quote from: Raptor
And no, I can't "eat like an athlete". I already have irritable bowel syndrome and feel like puking all day long (literally all day long) so that's a no-no for me. I try to but I can't. The word "eat" make me feel like I want to puke.

If you're sick, get some help!
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 11:07:18 am by LBSS »
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

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steven-miller

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Re: 3x8 or 3x5?
« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2010, 12:31:08 pm »
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Strong post. This has been my experience, as well. I can DL 370# at a bw of 168 but my BEST running jumps are 30.5". That's because I spent a long time wanting to get stronger to get my vert better but not actually jumping while I was doing it. In retrospect, this was beyond stupid.

I don't think jumping is the end of it all in terms of making max strength usable. Sure, you need to jump if that is what you are training for, but people neglect resisted power work such as cleans and snatches and getting better at these, too. The advantage that I see for the olympic lifts and their variants over exercises such as jump squats is that they are better scalable and also involve a more complete pattern of hip flexion/extension. That does not mean that jump squats are a bad exercise, Kelly Bagget posted a nice variation here a while ago where you make jump squats and try to touch a band overhead with each rep. I like this idea since it makes progressing in that exercise a lot more quantifiable.

So in my opinion making use of max strength boils down to making the correct exercise selection and make objective, quantifiable progress in those exercises. If that cannot be done, choose a different exercise. Actually jumping is a part of that, too, but I don't think it is the answer to consistent progress for people that are beyond the novice stage.

Raptor

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Re: 3x8 or 3x5?
« Reply #44 on: November 02, 2010, 02:44:38 pm »
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I don't think I can get much better at jumping itself at this point... my movement efficiency is very very high at this moment... it's the lack of strength that's the culprit. It won't be a tragedy if I shy away from jumping for a bit, especially as I gain weight and fat and jumping would only cause great joint shocks and will feel like a sperm whale. It doesn't make much sense in my book. If I were to do "some" jumping, of which I might, I don't believe it would do anything for me to be quite frank.

I won't suddenly forget to jump just because I won't jump for a couple of months.

What makes sense to me is to do some kind of hypertrophy work to increase the muscle size a bit, then follow it with strength work to improve the neural connection of the new muscle (yes I know, I simplify things but you get the idea) with some MSEM every now and then, cut down on the fat, get some plyos after I'm leaner and lighter and enjoy my gains. This is the medium term idea.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 02:47:42 pm by Raptor »