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Performance Area => Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion => Topic started by: Raptor on October 30, 2010, 03:47:15 am
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That's the question. Is 3x8 good for my current goals which are hypetrophy and some strength or is 3x5 a high enough of a volume to generate hypertrophy with proper food while also creating more strength since heavier weights are used?
I tend to focus better on 3x5 because the sets are shorter so I don't lose my focus in the sets, but I don't know about the total amount of volume. 15 reps seems so little.
What do you think?
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That's the question. Is 3x8 good for my current goals which are hypetrophy and some strength or is 3x5 a high enough of a volume to generate hypertrophy with proper food while also creating more strength since heavier weights are used?
I tend to focus better on 3x5 because the sets are shorter so I don't lose my focus in the sets, but I don't know about the total amount of volume. 15 reps seems so little.
What do you think?
you should have added another option, "do both", I would have clicked that one :) Day 1 = 3x8, Day 2 = 3x5, avoid mental/physiological burnout by rotating through 2-3 different volumes..
if you HAD to choose one, i'd go 3x5 as it is still a potent hypertrophy stimulus, but 3x8 is going to benefit hypertrophy more, 3x5 will benefit strength more, but they both feed off each other pretty well.
peace
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Yes but 3x8 and 3x5 with the same weight?
So if I do 3x8 on Sunday with 90 kg, then I should do 3x5 on Thursday with the same 90?
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it depends how many exercises your doing for the same muscles and how much rest your planning to get.
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Well it's squat + assistance (usually 2 supersets of 2x5) two times per week
and
Bench + assistance two times per week
The third day is an explosive and whatever day.
So it's:
lowerbody1
upperbody1
explosive (clean/jumpsquat and some back work)
rest
lowerbody2
upperbody2
rest
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Have you ever done MUCH higher volume training? Honestly, I got amazing size and strength gains in my hamstrings and back doing 6x6 and 8x6 for straight sets on RDL's. The only issue is: It's boring, and you need balls to do this once the work weights get pretty heavy. It also made me sore for very long.
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Yes but 3x8 and 3x5 with the same weight?
So if I do 3x8 on Sunday with 90 kg, then I should do 3x5 on Thursday with the same 90?
nah, go 3x5 heavier than the 3x8, bump each one up 5 lb a week or every 2 weeks.. if you feel the need to really push it, make the 3x5 day a 1x5..
day 1 = 3x8 @ ~75-78%
day 2 = 3x5 @ ~82-83% (just shy of true 5RM)
alternating volumes/intensities is pretty important imo..
peace man
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ditto
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Raptor, I would say do both. I made insane progress doing both, 2x5 one day and 3x8 a few days later. If you look at the my journal, right at the beginning is pretty much where I started doing that... I had been stuck at about a ~280lb squat max for a while.
When I started the 2x5 and 3x8 phase I could do 225x8, at the end of the phase a few months later I could do 270x7. I also started taking creatine during that phase but I was upping the weight pretty much every session, and like I said, before that I had been at a plateau for a while.
Check out from the end of my journal on tvs to about the middle of my journal on here.
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Raptor, I would say do both. I made insane progress doing both, 2x5 one day and 3x8 a few days later. If you look at the my journal, right at the beginning is pretty much where I started doing that... I had been stuck at about a ~280lb squat max for a while.
When I started the 2x5 and 3x8 phase I could do 225x8, at the end of the phase a few months later I could do 270x7. I also started taking creatine during that phase but I was upping the weight pretty much every session, and like I said, before that I had been at a plateau for a while.
Check out from the end of my journal on tvs to about the middle of my journal on here.
yup good point here, arowe definitely demonstrated this perfectly, same with vag etc. that's why "the intro block" rotates volume/intensity too, it's very effective.
peace
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Yeah it sounds cool. I guess I'll do today 90x8x3 and go with 100x5x3 on Thursday. I might throw in a MSEM workout every now and then for potentiation/rest purposes.
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Yeah it sounds cool. I guess I'll do today 90x8x3 and go with 100x5x3 on Thursday. I might throw in a MSEM workout every now and then for potentiation/rest purposes.
now you're talking :D
sounds good man..
you could throw in an MSEM session ever time you rotate through the 3x8/3x5 split twice.. so
3x8
3x5
3x8
3x5
2 x 2-4 MSEM (short session)
peace man
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Yeah I guess that's good.
My original plan was this:
WEEK 1:
3x8
3x8
WEEK 2:
3x8
3x8
WEEK 3:
3x5
2x3 MSEM
REPEAT
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Yeah I guess that's good.
My original plan was this:
WEEK 1:
3x8
3x8
WEEK 2:
3x8
3x8
WEEK 3:
3x5
2x3 MSEM
REPEAT
why man@!?#!@$?!@
rotate !@$!@
you are so locked into a linear periodization mindset, break out of it, rotate, it's so much better.
just know my opinion is to rotate the way i listed in the previous post, this works very well for everyone.. what you listed is basically a short linear block, 3x5 will suffer more so than the 3x8's in your template.
a compromise could be, but I still prefer rotating 2-3 different types of volumes/intensities back2back:
3x8
3x8
3x5
3x8
3x8
3x5
MSEM
peace man
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Nah, I'm going to stick with what you outlined. It makes more sense to wave a bit the volume and intensity of the workouts.
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Nah, I'm going to stick with what you outlined. It makes more sense to wave a bit the volume and intensity of the workouts.
cool, it's going to turn out good.
I just remembered, allstarnz had stalled for quite a while on his squat, i told him to rotate 4x10, 2-3x8, & 1x5, if you remember he blew up doing that setting lots of PR's.. rotating is just the way to go.
peace man
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Yeah I think he got from 80 kg for his work sets to about 100 if I remember right.
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Raptor what's your routine look like and what exercises are you using? Have you ever trained specifially for hypertrophy with a higher volume routine like 10 x 10 or anything crazy like 20 rep squats? If not, you might consider a higher volume alternating intensification/volume format. For example, on your high volume day go something like 5 x 5, 1 x 15-20. On your lower volume day go something like 5 x 1-3, 1 x 8-10.
My hunch is you probably don't grow well in your legs off low rep stuff so some high reps and/or volume will probably do you good.
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I'm using squat + one-leg straight leg deadlifts all the way to the floor (they're great at targeting my glutes) supersetted with leg curls (I won't ever do GHRs again since they destroy my knees) in workout A, and squat + lunges++leg curls (++ = supersetted) in workout B.
And no, never did that. The most I did was 5x5 work sets with heavy weights in the past (like 2 years ago or so). I tend to quickly lose my mental focus and form when I do high reps per set... it's like I can't maintain my mind into doing the exercise.
You're probably right about the low rep stuff. Last winter I did my own 8-7-6-5 with the same weight as work sets.
So basically if I had 100 as my weight, I'd do 100x8, 100x7, 100x6 and 100x5 as my last set. That ensured I can maintain my mental focus during the sets, since I knew I had to do less and less reps as I went by with my sets. It worked pretty good.
When I stalled I took away one of the sets and continue on getting the weight up. So I might go with 8-7-6 or 7-6-5 (top rep set or low rep set eliminated) and go on with that. I wrote about this in the evo blog.
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Raptor what's your routine look like and what exercises are you using? Have you ever trained specifially for hypertrophy with a higher volume routine like 10 x 10 or anything crazy like 20 rep squats? If not, you might consider a higher volume alternating intensification/volume format. For example, on your high volume day go something like 5 x 5, 1 x 15-20. On your lower volume day go something like 5 x 1-3, 1 x 8-10.
My hunch is you probably don't grow well in your legs off low rep stuff so some high reps and/or volume will probably do you good.
i'm in total agreement for people who are dead-set on hypertrophy (or a dedicated hypertrophy block), 20 rep squats have put so much mass on me 1.5 years ago it was ridiculous.. My legs became monstrous (relatively) by the time I hit 225 x 20, I couldn't jump for shit, but I put on a ton of mass.. I remember going from 170 to 180 or so on my 3-4 week 20 rep squat block.
10 x 10 is solid too.
In raptor's case though, with his aches/injuries/knee issue, I wouldn't do 20 rep/10x10. It would probably make him so sore + cause that knee so achy that he would literally kill himself. HEH
peace
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What's up Raptor, you got into bodybuilding mode now or what's the deal? Why the focus on hypertrophy suddenly instead of strength?
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Because I feel like I've kinda maxed up neurally for the amount of muscle I have right now. So I need more muscle and then further on, less fat (a lot less fat if I want to jump well, especially off one leg). Obviously at my strength levels and time spent with strength work (which has been pretty solid in the last years though) I can't really have maxed out neurally, but I just feel the need for more hypertrophy for a while, and then switch to lower rep schemes to improve neurally on that added muscle (strength work).
I want more posterior chain muscle specifically. Maybe I should go with more reps in my assistance exercises and keep the reps kind of low in the squats? Like for lunges/one-leg RDLs etc go for 8-12, and for squats go with 3x8 and 3x5?
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I wouldnt reccomend the 20 rep squats (or even a "hypertrophy block") in your case Raptor, you are constantly having issues with the bar hurting your shoulders/wrists, your knees hurt, etc. A good set of 20 rep squats will likely be very painful regarding your issues and cause you to not complete the sets with adequate loading.
Sets of 5, sets of 6, sets of 3, etc. are going to be more about what you PUT INTO THE REP than how many reps you actually perform. Alot of athletes can focus much better on form, speed, tightness, etc. during a lower rep range and will gain more strength and hypertrophy from this range than they would doing a higher rep set where a high number of reps get sloppy and slow due to different forms of fatigue, irrelevant to your actual goal.
I agree that rotating set/rep ranges is the way to go, I just wouldnt put an exact number on it such as 5 and 8, I would do 4 x 3-5, and 3 x 8-10, or something of that nature. That gives you some room for the days when youre stronger than normal to go up a couple of reps as well as when your not feeling well to still make the rep range.
Its just my personal experience but going into a set "hypertrophy block" for an athlete wanting strength and jumping gains has never worked out well. The switching period is always too long going back to an explosive/speed emphasis and often the CNS is firing on very low levels. But I would never have an athlete do a session that didnt always include some type of explosive strength or reactive type movements in it either. Movement effeciency, cns effeciency, etc. should always be maintained to some degree imo.
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I could go with Kelly's money sets as well... like a set of up to say 6 reps with a weight followed by some volume sets. I just feel it's too complicated. I want to have a hypertrophy block right now for a while and then switch to lower rep ranges. 3x8 works pretty good at the moment (except the elbow and wrist pain) and I'm upping up in weight. I'm using low weights right now (like ~60-70%) and keep on getting them up. Right now I'm at 90 kg for 3x8 and I should plateau at about 105 from what I feel I'm currently capable of.
I don't really like staying at a weight and keep on trying to improve on that weight... if I stall I usually reset to a lower weight by like 10% or so and start going up again.
So maybe going with 3x8@90 tomorrow and 3x5@100 Thursday, then 3x8@92.5 and 3x5@102.5 etc etc etc until I stall is what I'll do.
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Oh and about the hypertrophy stuff: if you look at Shannon Brown, he's having massive posterior chain muscle mass... yet he jumps 45+ off one leg. You can see he voluntarily generates the force to get up there.
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Oh and about the hypertrophy stuff: if you look at Shannon Brown, he's having massive posterior chain muscle mass... yet he jumps 45+ off one leg. You can see he voluntarily generates the force to get up there.
what do you mean yet? massive hamstring muscle is going to aid in dlrvj/slrvj, but it's also a sign that shannon brown simply is explosive & carries a bit more muscle than the average person, in the right places, im sure his glutes and quads are equally massive, similar to what you would see in most sprinters.
peace man
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What I meant by "yet" is that people tend to say that in order to jump well off one leg you need to be rail-skinny... and that going for hypertrophy (I see Shannon as being "too big" to consider him a great one leg jumper the first time I ever see him/not knowing if he's able to jump or not) is going to kill your one-leg jump (even if the hypertrophy occurs in the "right" places).
Same goes for D Wade, LeBron and other people. They might have thin ankles etc but they have "big" muscles in the upperlegs/butt.
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Oh and about the hypertrophy stuff: if you look at Shannon Brown, he's having massive posterior chain muscle mass... yet he jumps 45+ off one leg. You can see he voluntarily generates the force to get up there.
Yes, and if werent for his hypertrophy blocks he would never have built those glutes and hams. Years of bodybuilding training was his ticket to the pros. I would never say you need to be skinny to jump off one leg, never ever ever ever. I strongly believe that you have to train specifically for it though if single leg jumping is the primary goal, none of which involve a "hypertrophy" block. GPP block yes, but your gpp for jumping involves alot more than purely strength work.
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So a 8RM rep scheme is a bodybuilding rep scheme? 8RM is decent for strength gains and more towards hypertrophy than a 5RM rep scheme is... I don't think there's a huge difference. 12-15 reps would be.
I mean, do you find anything wrong going with 8 rep sets in a workout and 5 rep sets in another?
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Absolutely not, 8 reps is just fine and so is 10 and so is 2, what my concern was you set on a "hypertrophy phase" which is essentially abandoning speed strength and power specific work altogether. The rep ranges are all fine in most cases, in yours I would definitely lean towards the lower rep range due to your specific situations with different nagging injuries and pains. The rep range is not nearly as important as what you put into each rep anyway.
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Well yeah I'm kind of abandoning speed and explosive work. My plan was to use workout C for that, on Tuesday. Jump squats/power cleans/depth jumps at that time.
So:
WO A1
WO B1
WO C
rest
WO A2
WO B2
rest
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I agree with Lance here, because I think that this mind set is broken and might not lead to where you actually want to go. Although hypertrophy and strength have a lot to do with each other, the primary goal can only be one of those two and it should not be hypertrophy if you are an athlete that needs basic strength. Your primary goal needs to be to get as strong as possible with whatever hypertrophy comes along with that. And you need to measure your progress accordingly, namely how much stronger you got in a specific period of time by work weights going up instead of circumference of your thighs or massiveness of your glute muscles.
I think what Lance means with "bodybuilding type training" is that you think about hypertrophy increases more than strength increases rather than the topic of rep ranges. And I agree with that, although I think that there will be an optimum rep range that will work best for a specific goal in a specific situation. I am personally not a fan of the egalitarian thinking that everything works best. Because that is not how the universe operates, but that again is another topic altogether. It's just that in this field, where most of the exercise science is just either crap or does not have clear implications for the real world (think studies done an the cellular level), there is hardly enough objective, scientific data for everyone to see and draw conclusions from about what actually works best and what is not. So trainers and trainees will come to their own conclusion and it boils down to who you believe has the most experience and the best knowledge and data to support their findings. But just because this is the current stage of practice does not mean that everything works best. Again, it is not. [/rant]
But yes, you need to think about getting strong and forget about that nonsense that you need a hypertrophy phase of training where that is your primary goal.
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Well yes they go hand in hand. Anyway, I'm going to do this and see what happens. Call it an experiment.
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Because I feel like I've kinda maxed up neurally for the amount of muscle I have right now. So I need more muscle and then further on, less fat (a lot less fat if I want to jump well, especially off one leg). Obviously at my strength levels and time spent with strength work (which has been pretty solid in the last years though) I can't really have maxed out neurally, but I just feel the need for more hypertrophy for a while, and then switch to lower rep schemes to improve neurally on that added muscle (strength work).
I want more posterior chain muscle specifically. Maybe I should go with more reps in my assistance exercises and keep the reps kind of low in the squats? Like for lunges/one-leg RDLs etc go for 8-12, and for squats go with 3x8 and 3x5?
Raptor, it sounds to me here like you have conflicting goals. You want to get bigger, but you also want to get leaner. I hope you're not planning on trying to do that simultaneously because eating to get leaner while lifting to get bigger won't do much for you in the hypertrophy department. Glute and hamstring mass is relatively easy to come by in comparison to overall quadricep mass, it's just that most people don't do direct glute work. The hardest muscle to significantly hypertrophy (in terms of effort, fatigue, and overall tonnage) is the vastus medialis/lower quad region, especially for ectomorphs and long legged individuals. Make sure you throw in some direct glute work in the form of manual reverse hypers or barbell hip thrusts for your assistance exercises and that'll take care of your glutes. Same for hamstrings in the form of glute hams or even leg curls.
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Oh you bet. I don't care if I pack fat right now... I'll shed that down later. I'm at ~15% bodyfat right now. My diet isn't really anything... I'm trying to eat meat and eggs, I won't drink milk (intolerance) and take about 100g of protein (if you're to believe the label) each day by protein shakes...
I can't really eat much on my own, I have to struggle hard to do it but hey, I try. If I take my weight at ~85-86 kg (from a stable 81 kg) and then carefully shed fat later in the spring to get to ~75 kg (I have a lot of fat to shed off) then I should be great.
Hip thrusts make my knee pain reappear ... I think for some reason there's pressure on it when I get "up" on them. And I kind of like the squat + unilateral thing that I'm currently doing.
THE PROBLEM right now is that my left shoulder, elbow and wrist are hurting like hell because of the low bar position in the squat. That's a huge one. It gets worse and worse as I'm advancing. I feel "kind of" comfortable with my right arm in this position but my left arm just agonizes - it can't really get over the bar (the palm) in the position unless my palm/wrist is bend at 90 degrees or maybe even more. I think this is the same reason why I can't keep a clean racked on my shoulders... the elbows just don't come up. If they would, then the bar would sit in the middle of my neck.
The second GREAT problem is the bar keeps on slowly sliding down my back as I do my squat reps... that loads the elbows and creates great pain.
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Well yes they go hand in hand. Anyway, I'm going to do this and see what happens. Call it an experiment.
Yes, they DO go hand in hand, but that does not mean that hypertrophy needs to be your primary goal when what you actually want is strength and power. You think, because of your training history of slow progress (due to bad decision making, "experiments" and injuries), that you cannot possibly get stronger without doing a "hypertrophy phase" first when getting stronger should be your primary goal and it would actually happen really, really fast if you would just do what has worked for others over and over again and finally, for the first time, EAT like an athlete. And surprise, your muscles would grow without this being your primary concern.
Instead you are going to label this "experiment" a hypertrophy phase, just because you don't want to call it strength training, since that would make progress, or lack there-off, measurable and obvious. And you are paying for this comfort with your training time and with higher risk of injury (as Lance already pointed out). And another thing I can tell you and I bet that this was the reason for this bogus in the first place: This hypertrophy phase won't make gains easier later on. It will be just as hard - it's just that you will wait for the results a lot longer.
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I think the general consensus is: Do the Session A: 3x8
and Session B: 3x5
but do your bounds, barbell skips, depth drops, sprints before hand or you're going to spin your wheels again. I did a couple years of hypertrophy work for my glutes, hamstrings and quads. Sure it made me more athletic, but I'm certain I'd be jumping a good number of inches higher than I am now, if only I had included my plyos while getting bigger.
That's the reason I was the guy RDL'ing 170kg for reps but only single leg jumping 31 inches. If I actually trained to jump higher (What a shock if you want vert huh?) and let the muscle gain take care of itself through getting stronger and diet, I would be jumping higher than I am now. That is my opinion and experience.
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Yes but I won't be able to jump this winter since it will be cold outside, and I don't WANT to jump while gaining weight (muscle and fat). I want to only strength train.
And no, I can't "eat like an athlete". I already have irritable bowel syndrome and feel like puking all day long (literally all day long) so that's a no-no for me. I try to but I can't. The word "eat" make me feel like I want to puke.
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Yes but I won't be able to jump this winter since it will be cold outside, and I don't WANT to jump while gaining weight (muscle and fat). I want to only strength train.
If you still care alot about vert, I personally would get some stationary reactive work in: depth jumps, tucks, pogos, single leg drop step jumps, etc.
^^ Just so you have less work to do once it starts heating up again..
peace
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Yeah I might do that on Workout C. Was planning on doing depth jumps once per week.
The problem is - my bodyweight will increase and it's not really smart to do depth jumps and stuff like that I guess.
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Yeah I might do that on Workout C. Was planning on doing depth jumps once per week.
The problem is - my bodyweight will increase and it's not really smart to do depth jumps and stuff like that I guess.
so then do LOW-LEVEL reactive work, tucks, pogos, quick lunges, submax drops, VJ's, jump rope, etc..
pc
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Well yeah... I will... :-[
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I think the general consensus is: Do the Session A: 3x8
and Session B: 3x5
but do your bounds, barbell skips, depth drops, sprints before hand or you're going to spin your wheels again. I did a couple years of hypertrophy work for my glutes, hamstrings and quads. Sure it made me more athletic, but I'm certain I'd be jumping a good number of inches higher than I am now, if only I had included my plyos while getting bigger.
That's the reason I was the guy RDL'ing 170kg for reps but only single leg jumping 31 inches. If I actually trained to jump higher (What a shock if you want vert huh?) and let the muscle gain take care of itself through getting stronger and diet, I would be jumping higher than I am now. That is my opinion and experience.
Strong post. This has been my experience, as well. I can DL 370# at a bw of 168 but my BEST running jumps are 30.5". That's because I spent a long time wanting to get stronger to get my vert better but not actually jumping while I was doing it. In retrospect, this was beyond stupid.
Yes but I won't be able to jump this winter since it will be cold outside, and I don't WANT to jump while gaining weight (muscle and fat). I want to only strength train.
This is dumb. See above.
And no, I can't "eat like an athlete". I already have irritable bowel syndrome and feel like puking all day long (literally all day long) so that's a no-no for me. I try to but I can't. The word "eat" make me feel like I want to puke.
If you're sick, get some help!
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Strong post. This has been my experience, as well. I can DL 370# at a bw of 168 but my BEST running jumps are 30.5". That's because I spent a long time wanting to get stronger to get my vert better but not actually jumping while I was doing it. In retrospect, this was beyond stupid.
I don't think jumping is the end of it all in terms of making max strength usable. Sure, you need to jump if that is what you are training for, but people neglect resisted power work such as cleans and snatches and getting better at these, too. The advantage that I see for the olympic lifts and their variants over exercises such as jump squats is that they are better scalable and also involve a more complete pattern of hip flexion/extension. That does not mean that jump squats are a bad exercise, Kelly Bagget posted a nice variation here a while ago where you make jump squats and try to touch a band overhead with each rep. I like this idea since it makes progressing in that exercise a lot more quantifiable.
So in my opinion making use of max strength boils down to making the correct exercise selection and make objective, quantifiable progress in those exercises. If that cannot be done, choose a different exercise. Actually jumping is a part of that, too, but I don't think it is the answer to consistent progress for people that are beyond the novice stage.
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I don't think I can get much better at jumping itself at this point... my movement efficiency is very very high at this moment... it's the lack of strength that's the culprit. It won't be a tragedy if I shy away from jumping for a bit, especially as I gain weight and fat and jumping would only cause great joint shocks and will feel like a sperm whale. It doesn't make much sense in my book. If I were to do "some" jumping, of which I might, I don't believe it would do anything for me to be quite frank.
I won't suddenly forget to jump just because I won't jump for a couple of months.
What makes sense to me is to do some kind of hypertrophy work to increase the muscle size a bit, then follow it with strength work to improve the neural connection of the new muscle (yes I know, I simplify things but you get the idea) with some MSEM every now and then, cut down on the fat, get some plyos after I'm leaner and lighter and enjoy my gains. This is the medium term idea.
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I don't think I can get much better at jumping itself at this point... my movement efficiency is very very high at this moment... it's the lack of strength that's the culprit. It won't be a tragedy if I shy away from jumping for a bit, especially as I gain weight and fat and jumping would only cause great joint shocks and will feel like a sperm whale. It doesn't make much sense in my book. If I were to do "some" jumping, of which I might, I don't believe it would do anything for me to be quite frank.
I won't suddenly forget to jump just because I won't jump for a couple of months.
What makes sense to me is to do some kind of hypertrophy work to increase the muscle size a bit, then follow it with strength work to improve the neural connection of the new muscle (yes I know, I simplify things but you get the idea) with some MSEM every now and then, cut down on the fat, get some plyos after I'm leaner and lighter and enjoy my gains. This is the medium term idea.
why do you have to gain "weight AND FAT" ?
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Because in order to get a high caloric intake, I need carbs and shit. Fat is going to increase. I can't worry "OMG I don't want to gain fat, so I won't eat that and that". I'm already taking just a protein shake with no carbs, maybe I should plus on the carb thing with that as well.
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The advantage that I see for the olympic lifts and their variants over exercises such as jump squats is that they are better scalable and also involve a more complete pattern of hip flexion/extension. That does not mean that jump squats are a bad exercise, Kelly Bagget posted a nice variation here a while ago where you make jump squats and try to touch a band overhead with each rep. I like this idea since it makes progressing in that exercise a lot more quantifiable.
That is definitely one advantage the olympic lifts have. In fact, for people who know how to do them and like including them I like using a relative power formula I learned from a throwers coach years ago. Add up the body weight to strength ratio using two explosive lifts (hang clean + snatch) and two strength movements (bench + back squat). Take the total of these four lifts and divide it by the athlete’s bodyweight. A ratio of 6.0 or more tends to produce the best jumping ability and short sprint ability.
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so kelly your view is kind of "if you know how to and want to use olympic lifts they are a great tool, if not you can still achieve optimal results using other means" ?
same as how mine has always been..I cant even fully master less complicated lift techniques on squat and bench..
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Because in order to get a high caloric intake, I need carbs and shit. Fat is going to increase. I can't worry "OMG I don't want to gain fat, so I won't eat that and that". I'm already taking just a protein shake with no carbs, maybe I should plus on the carb thing with that as well.
I'm not really a fan of dirty bulks, this guy is massive & has a pretty good grasp on gaining lean mass, so he's more of an authoritative figure than myself:
http://www.adarq.org/forum/nutrition-supplementation/a-post-by-mountain-man-on-body-composition/msg19994/#msg19994
^^ here's who is giving that advice: http://www.adarq.org/forum/bodybuilding/scary-motherfawkers/msg19988/#msg19988
just saying, you can eat cleaner & gain muscle without putting on very much fat at all, you just need to eat more of the right kinds of foods (eggs/meat/chicken/milk/protein supp/green veggies) & less of the bad kinds of foods (junk/sugars/huge servings of pasta/bread etc).. You can of course eat pasta/bread, but it should be in smaller portions. Stuffing your face with carbs is never a good idea for bulking imo.
Anyway, any time you think about just stuffing your face with trash to put on muscle, just look at this pic, it'll save your life:
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/MiguelValenzuela/Vtechsuccessfulbulk.jpg)
dirty bulking = lame.
pc
The advantage that I see for the olympic lifts and their variants over exercises such as jump squats is that they are better scalable and also involve a more complete pattern of hip flexion/extension. That does not mean that jump squats are a bad exercise, Kelly Bagget posted a nice variation here a while ago where you make jump squats and try to touch a band overhead with each rep. I like this idea since it makes progressing in that exercise a lot more quantifiable.
That is definitely one advantage the olympic lifts have. In fact, for people who know how to do them and like including them I like using a relative power formula I learned from a throwers coach years ago. Add up the body weight to strength ratio using two explosive lifts (hang clean + snatch) and two strength movements (bench + back squat). Take the total of these four lifts and divide it by the athlete’s bodyweight. A ratio of 6.0 or more tends to produce the best jumping ability and short sprint ability.
nice
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just saying, you can eat cleaner & gain muscle without putting on very much fat at all, you just need to eat more of the right kinds of foods (eggs/meat/chicken/milk/protein supp/green veggies) & less of the bad kinds of foods (junk/sugars/huge servings of pasta/bread etc).
That's exactly the plan. And to keep the insulin levels low. If I do it right, I could possibly lose fat and gain muscle at the same time as I have a lot of fat to lose. The thing is - I find eating overrated and pure marketing. I don't believe one bit in nutrition. I feel like the body will take what it needs from whatever food and you're going to look the same no matter what.
THE REAL PROBLEM is that my left elbow is in severe pain because of the low bar squats... I couldn't finish my workout today because of it. There is continuous pain because I can't get the palm over the bar in the low bar position without extreme strain in the wrist (which is bent beyond belief) and elbow (which is stretched beyond belief).
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just saying, you can eat cleaner & gain muscle without putting on very much fat at all, you just need to eat more of the right kinds of foods (eggs/meat/chicken/milk/protein supp/green veggies) & less of the bad kinds of foods (junk/sugars/huge servings of pasta/bread etc).
That's exactly the plan. And to keep the insulin levels low. If I do it right, I could possibly lose fat and gain muscle at the same time as I have a lot of fat to lose.
ahhh, cool man.
The thing is - I find eating overrated and pure marketing. I don't believe one bit in nutrition. I feel like the body will take what it needs from whatever food and you're going to look the same no matter what.
lol :F
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEkWH8DB7b0
THE REAL PROBLEM is that my left elbow is in severe pain because of the low bar squats... I couldn't finish my workout today because of it. There is continuous pain because I can't get the palm over the bar in the low bar position without extreme strain in the wrist (which is bent beyond belief) and elbow (which is stretched beyond belief).
damn that sucks, what if you purchased a safety squat bar? none of the baseball guys I trained squatted with a regular bar, just because, any little ache in their elbow/shoulders would freak them out, so safety squat bar became invaluable. Safety squat bar squatting is extremely hard though, it straight up kills your core. I dno man, a high bar squat would be less stress on your elbows, hope you figure something out.
peace man
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEkWH8DB7b0&feature=player_embedded
AHAHAHAHAHA!@#@!
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Well I'd appreciate any ideas in terms of what stretches to do for ... whatever it is that is keeping me from getting confortable into position. I'll read through Starting Strength more as it talks about this. I guess pec stretches, shoulder dislocations and stuff like that?
I mean, I can't really figure out what is keeping this situation into occuring, what is the inflexible muscle etc or if it's just my build itself that causes it (long arms/forearms/palms). But since my right arm has visibly less strain in it since I shoot with it (equally weird I must say), then it has to be flexibility to some extent.
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You can do some flexibility work and that will help to a certain extent, but you have to get the weight of the bar out of you hands. Learning to let it sink into the rear delts is key, sometimes you have to widen the grip a little to allow this to happen. I used to use a close grip and got some shoulder issues from it, moved it out and have not had an issue since. If you look at the bar position in this video, you can see how little of the bar weight I actually carry in my hands, 99% of it is in the rear delts and upper traps. This isnt to say that this position is best for everyone but it works for a long limbed frame very well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEoJnhEqu_o
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If you look at 0:13, your wrists are straight over the bar. I can't have that. If my wrists are to be over the bar, then they have to be bent at perpendicular to the bar (bent to the maximum amount if you will). Otherwise, if I were to keep them straight like you do at 0:13, they'd be much lower than the bar. I have no idea what that means in terms of flexibility... maybe... what... shoulder inflexibility? I kind of feel the strain in the scapulae as well if I am to force things up.
I tried things with a wider grip and it was actually worse because my wrists came at an angle vs. the bar instead of straight "up". There's also the BAD (very, very bad) issue of the bar slipping on my t-shirt on my back and loading the arms. It doesn't sink into anything, it just slips down my back so I have to struggle to keep it there. I tried raising my elbows, contracting my back, doing all kinds of things to prevent that but the truth is that I really have to work fast and finish my set before the bar slips so much that it destroys my arms completely.
PS. You have the meat to let the bar sink into something :D
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That is definitely one advantage the olympic lifts have. In fact, for people who know how to do them and like including them I like using a relative power formula I learned from a throwers coach years ago. Add up the body weight to strength ratio using two explosive lifts (hang clean + snatch) and two strength movements (bench + back squat). Take the total of these four lifts and divide it by the athlete’s bodyweight. A ratio of 6.0 or more tends to produce the best jumping ability and short sprint ability.
That's great stuff, thanks for posting this!
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Because in order to get a high caloric intake, I need carbs and shit. Fat is going to increase. I can't worry "OMG I don't want to gain fat, so I won't eat that and that". I'm already taking just a protein shake with no carbs, maybe I should plus on the carb thing with that as well.
I'm not really a fan of dirty bulks, this guy is massive & has a pretty good grasp on gaining lean mass, so he's more of an authoritative figure than myself:
http://www.adarq.org/forum/nutrition-supplementation/a-post-by-mountain-man-on-body-composition/msg19994/#msg19994
^^ here's who is giving that advice: http://www.adarq.org/forum/bodybuilding/scary-motherfawkers/msg19988/#msg19988
just saying, you can eat cleaner & gain muscle without putting on very much fat at all, you just need to eat more of the right kinds of foods (eggs/meat/chicken/milk/protein supp/green veggies) & less of the bad kinds of foods (junk/sugars/huge servings of pasta/bread etc).. You can of course eat pasta/bread, but it should be in smaller portions. Stuffing your face with carbs is never a good idea for bulking imo.
Anyway, any time you think about just stuffing your face with trash to put on muscle, just look at this pic, it'll save your life:
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/MiguelValenzuela/Vtechsuccessfulbulk.jpg)
dirty bulking = lame.
pc
The advantage that I see for the olympic lifts and their variants over exercises such as jump squats is that they are better scalable and also involve a more complete pattern of hip flexion/extension. That does not mean that jump squats are a bad exercise, Kelly Bagget posted a nice variation here a while ago where you make jump squats and try to touch a band overhead with each rep. I like this idea since it makes progressing in that exercise a lot more quantifiable.
That is definitely one advantage the olympic lifts have. In fact, for people who know how to do them and like including them I like using a relative power formula I learned from a throwers coach years ago. Add up the body weight to strength ratio using two explosive lifts (hang clean + snatch) and two strength movements (bench + back squat). Take the total of these four lifts and divide it by the athlete’s bodyweight. A ratio of 6.0 or more tends to produce the best jumping ability and short sprint ability.
nice
I disagree. I only dirty bulk (and when I cut I dirty cut) and I'm leaner than I ever have been. The reason dreamer got so fat is because he ate way too much and lifted with 0 intensity (if he even lifted at all). Rippetoe's kid lifted hard but ate way too much. He did Gomad on top of what he was already eating. So if he was eating enough for maintenance, add 2400 calories to that. About 500-750 max will go into muscle building and the rest goes into fat storage. It has nothing to do with the dirty bulk. Adding 2400 calories of chicken breast would have given him the same results.
For me, it's always been a matter of calories in, calories out (as long as you get the "right" amount of protein. Eating 15 twix bars may have the right amount of calories (3750 which is pretty good for bulking purposes) but it won't give you the results of a balanced diet). It may be different for others, but that's how its been for me. Obviously I'm just talking about weight gain/loss, not overall health. A clean diet would be way better for my health, but for muscle building purposes, who knows.
When I say dirty bulk, I'm saying eat whatever you want as long as you get the right amount of calories and enough protein (maybe 1g per pound of bodyweight. that's more than enough). I'm not saying eat whatever you want and disregard calories, acquire muscle.
And the easiest way to get calories in is to eat fat. You can do it easily with few carbs.
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Because in order to get a high caloric intake, I need carbs and shit. Fat is going to increase. I can't worry "OMG I don't want to gain fat, so I won't eat that and that". I'm already taking just a protein shake with no carbs, maybe I should plus on the carb thing with that as well.
I'm not really a fan of dirty bulks, this guy is massive & has a pretty good grasp on gaining lean mass, so he's more of an authoritative figure than myself:
http://www.adarq.org/forum/nutrition-supplementation/a-post-by-mountain-man-on-body-composition/msg19994/#msg19994
^^ here's who is giving that advice: http://www.adarq.org/forum/bodybuilding/scary-motherfawkers/msg19988/#msg19988
just saying, you can eat cleaner & gain muscle without putting on very much fat at all, you just need to eat more of the right kinds of foods (eggs/meat/chicken/milk/protein supp/green veggies) & less of the bad kinds of foods (junk/sugars/huge servings of pasta/bread etc).. You can of course eat pasta/bread, but it should be in smaller portions. Stuffing your face with carbs is never a good idea for bulking imo.
Anyway, any time you think about just stuffing your face with trash to put on muscle, just look at this pic, it'll save your life:
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/MiguelValenzuela/Vtechsuccessfulbulk.jpg)
dirty bulking = lame.
pc
The advantage that I see for the olympic lifts and their variants over exercises such as jump squats is that they are better scalable and also involve a more complete pattern of hip flexion/extension. That does not mean that jump squats are a bad exercise, Kelly Bagget posted a nice variation here a while ago where you make jump squats and try to touch a band overhead with each rep. I like this idea since it makes progressing in that exercise a lot more quantifiable.
That is definitely one advantage the olympic lifts have. In fact, for people who know how to do them and like including them I like using a relative power formula I learned from a throwers coach years ago. Add up the body weight to strength ratio using two explosive lifts (hang clean + snatch) and two strength movements (bench + back squat). Take the total of these four lifts and divide it by the athlete’s bodyweight. A ratio of 6.0 or more tends to produce the best jumping ability and short sprint ability.
nice
I disagree. I only dirty bulk (and when I cut I dirty cut) and I'm leaner than I ever have been. The reason dreamer got so fat is because he ate way too much and lifted with 0 intensity (if he even lifted at all). Rippetoe's kid lifted hard but ate way too much. He did Gomad on top of what he was already eating. So if he was eating enough for maintenance, add 2400 calories to that. About 500-750 max will go into muscle building and the rest goes into fat storage. It has nothing to do with the dirty bulk. Adding 2400 calories of chicken breast would have given him the same results.
For me, it's always been a matter of calories in, calories out (as long as you get the "right" amount of protein. Eating 15 twix bars may have the right amount of calories (3750 which is pretty good for bulking purposes) but it won't give you the results of a balanced diet). It may be different for others, but that's how its been for me. Obviously I'm just talking about weight gain/loss, not overall health. A clean diet would be way better for my health, but for muscle building purposes, who knows.
When I say dirty bulk, I'm saying eat whatever you want as long as you get the right amount of calories and enough protein (maybe 1g per pound of bodyweight. that's more than enough). I'm not saying eat whatever you want and disregard calories, acquire muscle.
And the easiest way to get calories in is to eat fat. You can do it easily with few carbs.
This whole post contradicts itself all over the place. You say macronutrients don't matter and it's all about calories. Then you say that you need 1g per pound of bodyweight. I also massively disagree about 2400 extra calories from any source is going to have the same effect.
Chicken breast in excess is not going to make you as fats as sugary chocolate or drinks in excess. Say out loud "Adding 2400 calories of chicken breast would have given him the same results." and just listen to how dumb it sounds.
I think we both agree that you need the right 'stuff' in order to gain muscle at least, eg. whole proteins and fats etc.
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I don't like how Zach is butchered as an example of a failed diet in this ridiculous thread. His goal was to get bigger and stronger, both of which he accomplished very well. His goal was not to enter a physique contest or to be an underwear model. Just get over it, that there are people who couldn't care less if they have a six pack or not. Also notice that those who cry the loudest about this being an example of how not to approach eating and training are often also those who never got an average kid as strong as fast - good diet or not.
Would I encourage eating this way for an athlete that wants to jump higher? No, probably not since athletes will usually need to be in contest shape for a big proportion of the year. But if the objective is to get as strong as possible as fast as possible eating a ton of stuff with GOMAD is likely going to meet your needs very well.
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N00bem, how did I contradict myself? I said macros don't matter as long as you get the right amount of protein. 160 grams of protein is about 640 calories. That's not a full diet. You need to get at least 2000 calories from other places if you plan on bulking. That's the part that doesn't matter (imo). Sure you got other factors like the thermal effect of certain foods, gi index, insulin sensity, etc. But I don't think that makes a significant difference.
And you can think it's dumb, I really don't care. My body was made on pizza, whole milk, candy, soda and cheeseburgers and I'd say I'm pretty lean. Once your body makes the maximum amount of muscle it can naturally (this number is debated, but let's say 2-3 pounds a month), anything excess calories will get stored as fat. It doesn't matter where those calories came from. You're not putting on 10 pounds of muscle a month just because you ate only "clean" foods
(http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/2531/mayfebtrans.png)
(http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/3064/sept202010bodypic.jpg)
(http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/img/user_images/growable/2010/11/02/23509921/profilepic/1aakgxf5BEL1EZoOg80dUpOJCZSv1750p.jpeg)
Dirty bulking makes you fat right? That's about a 20 pound difference from the first to the 4th pic. How much of that do you think was fat? And those aren't noob gains either. My noob gains came before the first picture. I was skinny as fuck.
(If the fourth picture doesn't load for you, go to my log)
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i have those same boxers. arent they wonderful?
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Yes. 4 in a pack for 7 dollars, yes sir.
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I don't like how Zach is butchered as an example of a failed diet in this ridiculous thread. His goal was to get bigger and stronger, both of which he accomplished very well. His goal was not to enter a physique contest or to be an underwear model. Just get over it, that there are people who couldn't care less if they have a six pack or not. Also notice that those who cry the loudest about this being an example of how not to approach eating and training are often also those who never got an average kid as strong as fast - good diet or not.
Would I encourage eating this way for an athlete that wants to jump higher? No, probably not since athletes will usually need to be in contest shape for a big proportion of the year. But if the objective is to get as strong as possible as fast as possible eating a ton of stuff with GOMAD is likely going to meet your needs very well.
:highfive:
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The reason Zach gets made fun of is because Rippetoe bragged about how much muscle and how little fat he put on. Rippetoe is the reason the kid gets made fun of online, because he was bragging about the Aesthetic part of it. If he just talked about how he got his squat up 200 pounds in 6 months, then nobody would care.
Rip was claiming like 45 pounds of muscle and 20 pounds of fat or something ridiculous like that.
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Um... so how do all these apply for me? :D
In my book, I don't give a rat's ass if I gain even more fat RIGHT NOW. I will later. The thing is gaining strength and I will work on shedding fat later. That's the idea. Build the muscle. Keep the muscle. Lose the fat. Improve relative strength.
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The reason Zach gets made fun of is because Rippetoe bragged about how much muscle and how little fat he put on. Rippetoe is the reason the kid gets made fun of online, because he was bragging about the Aesthetic part of it. If he just talked about how he got his squat up 200 pounds in 6 months, then nobody would care.
Rip was claiming like 45 pounds of muscle and 20 pounds of fat or something ridiculous like that.
:highfive:
steven-miller, i'm not making fun of Zach one bit, but the fact is that's what happens when you bulk dirty. He might not care one bit about any of that, but that has no bearing on what actually happened to his physique during that bulk.. Lots of people think you have to stuff your face to put on some decent mass, and end up going down the road he took to put on mass, usually not to that extent, but that "well i'll put on fat with muscle then cut (edit:) fat" ideology is definitely the most common among athletes trying to put on mass, imo.
peace
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I definitely don't want to cut muscle, I want to cut FAT! :o
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I definitely don't want to cut muscle, I want to cut FAT! :o
edited, but, it's true i guess, people put on fat & muscle then cut ... fat & muscle.. lol
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The reason Zach gets made fun of is because Rippetoe bragged about how much muscle and how little fat he put on. Rippetoe is the reason the kid gets made fun of online, because he was bragging about the Aesthetic part of it. If he just talked about how he got his squat up 200 pounds in 6 months, then nobody would care.
Rip was claiming like 45 pounds of muscle and 20 pounds of fat or something ridiculous like that.
If you think Rip bragged about the aesthetic outcome of Zach's training up to that point then you are are delusional. He did although claim that the kid gained tons of muscle and he is in a better position to judge that then you or me are since he caliper measured him. I am not going to get into the debate whether the numbers are accurate or not, for me it's pretty obvious that Zach gained a lot of muscle and strength and that was the whole point of that article which was published back then. It's not Zach's fault that some people without brains thought it would be fun to cry about those pictures and how the kid failed and stupid shit like that.
steven-miller, i'm not making fun of Zach one bit, but the fact is that's what happens when you bulk dirty. He might not care one bit about any of that, but that has no bearing on what actually happened to his physique during that bulk.. Lots of people think you have to stuff your face to put on some decent mass, and end up going down the road he took to put on mass, usually not to that extent, but that "well i'll put on fat with muscle then cut (edit:) fat" ideology is definitely the most common among athletes trying to put on mass, imo.
peace
I don't know what's the point of that argument. It's not that you suddenly wake up and have 22% bf because you ate a cheeseburger the day before. People should be able to evaluate their progress at any point and come to conclusions whether or not they are getting closer to their goals or if they better clean up their diet a bit.
I personally think that there is nothing wrong with the ideal to put on muscle but stay rather lean (say at 10% bf or lower). You just have to accept that gains will, at least for most people, come slower and this is especially true for novices who will stall prematurely because their eating does not keep up with their potential for growth in strength and mass.
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Gaining 45 pounds of muscle and 20 pounds of fat should look pretty good aesthetically. IDC what rippetoe thinks the calipers said, the kid did not gain 45 pounds of muscle. I think taking pictures of the kid without his shirt on his bragging about the aesthetics, or at least trying to show how he progressed aesthetically. I don't know too many people who brag about putting 200 pounds on their squat by posting a shirtless picture, where they look like theyve gained no muscle.
And gaining 65 pounds but only putting on 200 pounds on your squat is pretty lousy imo.
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Yeah, I'd be terribly disappointed to gain 100 lbs on my squat while packing 32.5 lbs more weight on me. ;D
I'd be at ~100 kg squatting ~185. ;D
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Yeah, I'd be terribly disappointed to gain 100 lbs on my squat while packing 32.5 lbs more weight on me. ;D
I'd be at ~100 kg squatting ~185. ;D
This kid probably never squatted before either, so take into account the neural gains, its even worse.
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And gaining 65 pounds but only putting on 200 pounds on your squat is pretty lousy imo.
And your best squat was what again?
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And gaining 65 pounds but only putting on 200 pounds on your squat is pretty lousy imo.
And your best squat was what again?
355 box squat at 182. Not impressive at all, but am I bragging about that? No. All I care about is aesthetic progress, which is why I post shirtless pictures. I don't post shirtless pictures to brag about my squat.
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And gaining 65 pounds but only putting on 200 pounds on your squat is pretty lousy imo.
And your best squat was what again?
355 box squat at 182. Not impressive at all, but am I bragging about that? No. All I care about is aesthetic progress, which is why I post shirtless pictures. I don't post shirtless pictures to brag about my squat.
My point is that: You did not even get near his rate of progress in terms of strength, even if you don't care about this aspect, but yet you critique his "poor" squat gains in face of his bodyweight, although you don't even know what it means to make such progress.
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And gaining 65 pounds but only putting on 200 pounds on your squat is pretty lousy imo.
And your best squat was what again?
355 box squat at 182. Not impressive at all, but am I bragging about that? No. All I care about is aesthetic progress, which is why I post shirtless pictures. I don't post shirtless pictures to brag about my squat.
My point is that: You did not even get near his rate of progress in terms of strength, even if you don't care about this aspect, but yet you critique his "poor" squat gains in face of his bodyweight, although you don't even know what it means to make such progress.
I think squatting 355 at 182 is more impressive than 345 x5 (i think he did that) at 242, but to each his own.
Is gaining 200 pounds on your squat impressive? Yes. Is it impressive when you gained 70 pounds and "46 pounds of muscle". No
And I like how you try and pick apart one thing I said (unsuccessfully I might add) and ignore everything else.
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I did not comment on it because I have no interest in speculating about Rippetoe's motives to post pictures of Zach. Your perception is that he did that to brag about aesthetic aspects - as if that was the only thing in the world people would have an interest in bragging about. Rip has posted his opinion on training for physique more than once and his thoughts about that lead me to believe that he does not have a motive to brag with anything related to training for aesthetics. But as I said, there is no point in discussing this and I am also not interested in your opinion on the matter.
I also see little value in this "what is more impressive" debate and I think you fail to see the point. You obviously lack the ability to imagine that there are people training for different things then to look good in the mirror and that those people don't train with the goal in mind to impress you with their amazing abs and low body fat percentage. They might not even care how much they weigh, they only care to get stronger. But I am sure this did never occur to you.
P.S.: A box squat is not a squat.
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I did not comment on it because I have no interest in speculating about Rippetoe's motives to post pictures of Zach. Your perception is that he did that to brag about aesthetic aspects - as if that was the only thing in the world people would have an interest in bragging about. Rip has posted his opinion on training for physique more than once and his thoughts about that lead me to believe that he does not have a motive to brag with anything related to training for aesthetics. But as I said, there is no point in discussing this and I am also not interested in your opinion on the matter.
I also see little value in this "what is more impressive" debate and I think you fail to see the point. You obviously lack the ability to imagine that there are people training for different things then to look good in the mirror and that those people don't train with the goal in mind to impress you with their amazing abs and low body fat percentage. They might not even care how much they weigh, they only care to get stronger. But I am sure this did never occur to you.
P.S.: A box squat is not a squat.
If you aren't trying to impress us with your bodyfat % or your weight, then don't bring it up.
http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=15386
What does he talk about the most in that post? His gain in his squat? No. He talks about how much muscle he gained and how "lean" he is. If the only thing he cared about was getting stronger, he wouldn't have posted any of that. Look at the comments on that forum post. They are talking about his weight gain, because that is what Rippetoe was bragging about. But no, just because anyone in their right mind can tell he just became a fat fuck, to you Rippetoe wasn't bragging about the weight gain at all, just the squat gain.
And I only pushed myself on box squats, so come at me
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And weight gain is primarily about aesthetics, so I guess you are right and I am wrong. My fault. Everything is about looking good, right? It has to be...
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And weight gain is primarily about aesthetics, so I guess you are right and I am wrong. My fault. Everything is about looking good, right? It has to be...
Shirtless Pictures = Showing off aesthetic gains
Pictures of the scale = Showing off weight gain
And to get back on topic, Raptor you don't really have to put a lot of fat on. I went pure bulk for most of my time and then I did 2 weeks bulk/2 weeks cut. I think KellyB suggests 10 days bulk/4 days cut. Same idea. My results weren't spectacular, but I didn't eat enough during the beginning, but I think you'd be satisfied with 20 pounds in a year and a half.
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Well my plan is to eat a lot and strength train for ~3 months and then start to cut off fat.
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Well my plan is to eat a lot and strength train for ~3 months and then start to cut off fat.
You'll probably end up right where you started
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Well my plan is to eat a lot and strength train for ~3 months and then start to cut off fat.
You'll probably end up right where you started
I definitely agree with this.
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Why?
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Why?
Not enough time to put on significant muscle, and if you are doing an all out bulk, you're gonna end up burning all the muscle you gained to get off the fat unless you take 6 months to cut.
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Well I don't feel like there's another way... I don't see one. It's not like I'm competing in powerlifting, 3 months should be "enough" for strength training.
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Well I don't feel like there's another way... I don't see one. It's not like I'm competing in powerlifting, 3 months should be "enough" for strength training.
Slowly bulk up or do 2 weeks bulk/1 week cut instead of bulking for 3 straight months and you won't have to do a long ass cut that will burn all your muscle.
You don't need to put on tons of fat to put on muscle. Most peoples' problem is they are so afraid to put fat on they don't eat enough to put muscle on, so they think they have to get fat. Eat the right amount and you'll be golden.
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Well I don't feel like there's another way... I don't see one. It's not like I'm competing in powerlifting, 3 months should be "enough" for strength training.
3 months is not that much but its not little either. From personal experience your main concern should be the cutting phase , it is imperative to maintain strength in order to avoid yo-yo.
So connecting that to JCs post , IMO 3 months of bulking are enough to put some serious mass and strength , but then yo umust plan the fat-loss phase really good. I would suggest caloric deficit and increased cardio combined with heavy singles ( MSEM ) workouts & big eating. It should be more like a try-catch approach , start with a scheme ( low eating + MSEM ) , see how your body responds to it , adjust , retry and so on...
void fat_loss_phase( void )
{
project_plan = init_fat_los_plan();
do{
iok = attemptFatLoss( project_plan );
if( iok != continue_current_plan ){
project_plan = adjust_project_plan()
}
}while( iok != fat_loss_achieved )
}
int attemptFatLoss( int project_plan )
{
int iret;
if( doFatLoss( project_plan ) != succesfull ){
iret = needs_adjust;
}else{
if( isFatLossComplete() ){
iret = fat_loss_achieved;
}else{
iret = continue_current_plan;
}
}
return iret;
}
Note that this programm deliberately doesn't have an abort case , it will continue forever untill you succeed!
GO GET IT!
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Well yeah that's what I was thinking. Is that program copyrighted? Like vag™?
What I mean is, I was thinking of doing exactly that - eat a lot of proteins, very little carbs and doing cardio/HIIT with some days of low volume, high intensity work (MSEM). But this starting the late February/early March 2011.
I can't really do "running" right now except on the treadmills which I have never done/am afraid I'm going to fall off that "evil thing" and/or kettlebell swings. I don't really feel like I should be doing stuff like that since I already can't eat too much so it doesn't really make sense to consume calories that I can barely take in to grow on cardio.
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Well yeah that's what I was thinking. Is that program copyrighted? Like vag™?
Hahaha , no copyright , its a gift to the adarq.org community 8)
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Well I don't feel like there's another way... I don't see one. It's not like I'm competing in powerlifting, 3 months should be "enough" for strength training.
3 months is not that much but its not little either. From personal experience your main concern should be the cutting phase , it is imperative to maintain strength in order to avoid yo-yo.
So connecting that to JCs post , IMO 3 months of bulking are enough to put some serious mass and strength , but then yo umust plan the fat-loss phase really good. I would suggest caloric deficit and increased cardio combined with heavy singles ( MSEM ) workouts & big eating. It should be more like a try-catch approach , start with a scheme ( low eating + MSEM ) , see how your body responds to it , adjust , retry and so on...
void fat_loss_phase( void )
{
project_plan = init_fat_los_plan();
do{
iok = attemptFatLoss( project_plan );
if( iok != continue_current_plan ){
project_plan = adjust_project_plan()
}
}while( iok != fat_loss_achieved )
}
int attemptFatLoss( int project_plan )
{
int iret;
if( doFatLoss( project_plan ) != succesfull ){
iret = needs_adjust;
}else{
if( isFatLossComplete() ){
iret = fat_loss_achieved;
}else{
iret = continue_current_plan;
}
}
return iret;
}
Note that this programm deliberately doesn't have an abort case , it will continue forever untill you succeed!
GO GET IT!
(http://i52.tinypic.com/2rbza5i.gif)
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Well I don't feel like there's another way... I don't see one. It's not like I'm competing in powerlifting, 3 months should be "enough" for strength training.
3 months is not that much but its not little either. From personal experience your main concern should be the cutting phase , it is imperative to maintain strength in order to avoid yo-yo.
So connecting that to JCs post , IMO 3 months of bulking are enough to put some serious mass and strength , but then yo umust plan the fat-loss phase really good. I would suggest caloric deficit and increased cardio combined with heavy singles ( MSEM ) workouts & big eating. It should be more like a try-catch approach , start with a scheme ( low eating + MSEM ) , see how your body responds to it , adjust , retry and so on...
void fat_loss_phase( void )
{
project_plan = init_fat_los_plan();
do{
iok = attemptFatLoss( project_plan );
if( iok != continue_current_plan ){
project_plan = adjust_project_plan()
}
}while( iok != fat_loss_achieved )
}
int attemptFatLoss( int project_plan )
{
int iret;
if( doFatLoss( project_plan ) != succesfull ){
iret = needs_adjust;
}else{
if( isFatLossComplete() ){
iret = fat_loss_achieved;
}else{
iret = continue_current_plan;
}
}
return iret;
}
Note that this programm deliberately doesn't have an abort case , it will continue forever untill you succeed!
GO GET IT!
epic post, hall of fame status.
adjusted for raptor:
typedef struct exercises {
char * name;
int status;
} exercise_t;
exercise_t exercises[EXERCISE_MAX];
void fat_loss_phase( void )
{
project_plan = init_fat_los_plan();
init_exercise_list();
do{
iok = attemptFatLoss( project_plan );
if( iok != continue_current_plan ){
project_plan = adjust_project_plan()
}
}while( iok != fat_loss_achieved )
}
int attemptFatLoss( int project_plan )
{
int iret;
exercise_t * ex;
ex = provide_safe_exercises();
if(ex == NULL) { puts("you're fucked, relax"); exit(1); }
if( doFatLoss( ex, project_plan ) != succesfull ){
iret = needs_adjust;
}else{
if( isFatLossComplete() ){
iret = fat_loss_achieved;
}else{
iret = continue_current_plan;
}
}
return iret;
}
#define EXERCISE_CURRENTLY_SAFE 0
#define EXERCISE_CURRENTLY_UNSAFE_AND_PROBLEMATIC 1
#define EXERCISE_CURRENTLY_UNSAFE_DONT_FUCKING_DO_IT 2
exercise_t * provide_safe_exercises(void) {
exercise_t * ex = NULL;
int i; for(i=0;i<EXERCISE_MAX;i++) { if(!(exercises.status == 1 || exercises.status == 2)) { ex = &exercise; break; }}
return ex;
}
ok typed that out real quick, hope it compiles.
lulz
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You're an odd little man, aren't you?
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Hahahahaha , epic x 2 , that's exactly what i thought you would reply , word-by-word! :D
I typed mine on the go too. :D
Funny thing , i really liked the whole idea and afterwards my mind has been working on the complete design pattern of that shit. An object oriented design , where depending on user we will load the apropriate function , that will be pretty epic but it comes pretty close to what i do at work so it ruins the fun of being in here , LOLLLLLLLLLLL
Oh well, here's a fast version of it , on the go again:
struct UltimateTrainer
{
int assesmentFunc();
int trainingFunc();
int evaluationFunc();
struct trainingData{
....
....
....
}*data;
}
int goGetIt( string *athlete )
{
struct UltimateTrainer *my_trainer
my_trainer = initAthletesTrainer( athlete );
runUltimateTrainer( my_trainer );
}
struct UltimateTrainer initAthletesTrainer( string *athlete )
{
UltimateTrainer *my_trainer = malloc( ...);
if( athlete == 'raptor' ){
assesmentFunc = aquireListOfSafeExcercises( my_trainer->data );
trainingrFunc = attemptFatLoss( my_trainer->data );
evaluationFunc = checkIfFatLossAchieved( my_trainer->data );
}
return my_trainer;
}
runUltimateTrainer( struct UltimateTrainer *my_trainer )
{
my_trainer->assesmentFunc( my_trainer->data);
do{
my_trainer->trainingFunc( my_trainer->data);
}while( my_trainer->evaluationFunc() != my_trainer->data->user_goal );
}
HAHAHAHA , loving it! ;D ;D ;D
Pretty geeky too :-\ , LETS NERD THE FUCK OUT! :headbang:
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dude this is epic, we need to create a separate thread for this.. re-post your little pseudo's in this thread:
http://www.adarq.org/forum/strength-power-reactivity-speed-discussion/advanced-theory-programming-of-the-human-organism/new/#new
i added your initial post to topic hall of fame thread, check it, because the pseudo code actually crashes safari, how funny is that..
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dude this is epic, we need to create a separate thread for this.. re-post your little pseudo's in this thread:
http://www.adarq.org/forum/strength-power-reactivity-speed-discussion/advanced-theory-programming-of-the-human-organism/new/#new
i added your initial post to topic hall of fame thread, check it, because the pseudo code actually crashes safari, how funny is that..
hahaha , yup , that whole concept is very funny :D
on the other hand its very serious too , applies the KISS method , as long ass you know what to pick from the infinite pool of S&C info around... but it allways comes down to doing 2-3 simple things.
You acutally tried to compile it? its not pseudo , its C , just some funcs missing because i was too bored.
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Daaaang, I'm starting to feel fat, nerdy with glasses and ground-bounded. Hey, I AM THAT! Well not really, but not far away.
I always hated programming. And it's silly because I had my first computer at 5 years old in 1990... used to play around "programming" stuff... but it all broke down from me in high school... damn I hated Pascal!
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Daaaang, I'm starting to feel fat, nerdy with glasses and ground-bounded. Hey, I AM THAT! Well not really, but not far away.
I always hated programming. And it's silly because I had my first computer at 5 years old in 1990... used to play around "programming" stuff... but it all broke down from me in high school... damn I hated Pascal!
i loved programming, but it just became too unhealthy.. i had to get out of it.
when i was in h.s., junior year i signed up for Pascal, but they kicked me out because of math requirements and put me in a QBasic class.. I freaking wrecked that class, I went on the net & found qbasic functions/libs that they of course weren't teaching us, and i'd make logic bomb codes and put them on a ton of the computers, so say at 12:30pm right before lunch, all of the qbasic codes I installed would trigger and start strobe lighting with really loud annoying as shit sound effects, like tone generators.. bwahahaha
that class was so boring, I just studied my unix books & coded on paper in C while I was in that dumb class..
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Daaaang, I'm starting to feel fat, nerdy with glasses and ground-bounded. Hey, I AM THAT! Well not really, but not far away.
I always hated programming. And it's silly because I had my first computer at 5 years old in 1990... used to play around "programming" stuff... but it all broke down from me in high school... damn I hated Pascal!
i loved programming, but it just became too unhealthy.. i had to get out of it.
when i was in h.s., junior year i signed up for Pascal, but they kicked me out because of math requirements and put me in a QBasic class.. I freaking wrecked that class, I went on the net & found qbasic functions/libs that they of course weren't teaching us, and i'd make logic bomb codes and put them on a ton of the computers, so say at 12:30pm right before lunch, all of the qbasic codes I installed would trigger and start strobe lighting with really loud annoying as shit sound effects, like tone generators.. bwahahaha
that class was so boring, I just studied my unix books & coded on paper in C while I was in that dumb class..
(http://eatthiscity.com/wp-content/upload/1253748724-Cool_story_bro_inc.jpg)
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haha