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Performance Area => Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion => Topic started by: psychomark32 on April 27, 2011, 02:13:58 pm
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I've heard coaches say that it is good to take shorter steps in your start to keep your hips under your center of gravity. I have also had coaches instruct me to take the largest steps possible when firing out of the hole.
Which theory is correct?
I know for me personally, I "feel" a lot more explosive taking shorter steps but that doesn't mean I'm actually moving faster. It can sometimes feel a little choppy, and that may lead to deceleration. But the shorter steps allow me to fire out lower and not raise my torso up too soon.
What do my choopy steps indicate? Is it a weakness in hip power? A poor stance? I have a had a strength coach look at my stance and he hasn't made any changes so it may not be my stance.
A note about the stance. A lot of sprinters seems to raise their butts really high in the air. when I do this I feel like I am noce diving into the ground and I have to take recovery steps to get my balance. When I keep my butt parrallel or slightly above my back then I feel I can drive out easier and more efficiently. But when I look at combine videos, it seems like all the guys butts are really high in the air.
**Any comments or suggestions would be really helpful.
Thanks
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I've heard coaches say that it is good to take shorter steps in your start to keep your hips under your center of gravity. I have also had coaches instruct me to take the largest steps possible when firing out of the hole.
Which theory is correct?
Yea, there are two sides to that coin, defranco and many others have tested over and over the short steps vs explosively firing out and simply getting to point b as fast as possible which obviously entails longer steps debate, and the 2nd method is what they swear by. I agree with him and have found the same, the fastest times nearly ALWAYS come from just focusing on gettting from a to b as fast as humanly possible and not cutting the stride length at the start.
I know for me personally, I "feel" a lot more explosive taking shorter steps but that doesn't mean I'm actually moving faster. It can sometimes feel a little choppy, and that may lead to deceleration. But the shorter steps allow me to fire out lower and not raise my torso up too soon.
Best thing to do is test it both ways, TIME it though and run a whole 40 when you do. Raising the torso up too soon is a habit that has to be broken, whether you take short strides or not at the start, you can LEARN to keep lower until you reach your top speed.
What do my choopy steps indicate? Is it a weakness in hip power? A poor stance? I have a had a strength coach look at my stance and he hasn't made any changes so it may not be my stance.
choppy steps in most cases indicate that your torso is not out in front of your lower body enough, when you start, EXPLODE out with the torso, so you have to "run under it". When you do it right it will almost feel like youre going to face plant, but you will realize that youre not once you train it, and your times will improve A LOT.
A note about the stance. A lot of sprinters seems to raise their butts really high in the air. when I do this I feel like I am noce diving into the ground and I have to take recovery steps to get my balance. When I keep my butt parrallel or slightly above my back then I feel I can drive out easier and more efficiently. But when I look at combine videos, it seems like all the guys butts are really high in the air.
You definitely want the hips fairly high at the start, you cant generate any power with them too low and you will immediately stand straight up. Most of the guys youre watching also likely have a short torso, long legged build, which will make the hip height more drastic, as it will the torso lean in the squat. Defranco has a lot of GREAT info on the 10yd dash and starts, how to set up the stance, I highly reccomend his "running the 40yd dash" book, he breaks it down better than anyone else I have ever seen.
**Any comments or suggestions would be really helpful.
Thanks
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That's some good advice there Lance.
Re: the choppy steps a lot of times that can also be just a psychological thing it might make you feel like you're going faster taking quicker steps out of the hole but if you put the watch on it you'll probably find that's not the case. The sled can help you get the proper mechanics it's good to do contrast or complex 10 yard sprints one with sled and one without or substitute sled with uphill bodyweight sprint one uphill one flat.
Hip height make sure your lead leg is at about 45 degree angle also experiment with different stance widths a slightly wider stance can sometimes help your start just make sure it carries over into the rest of your 40.
All in all though the 3 pt. start is a specific skill that takes practice - it will often suck until one day it just clicks for you. How does your standing 2 pt. start compare to your 3 pt?
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Yeah I would definitely agree with Joe Defranco's stuff, it's really good.
Short choppy strides are usually slower for most people, b/c even though your stride frequency is greater, when you start it's more important to get that larger (but not a slow) stride to produce more force as you don't have much reactive strength to get out of the gate. Short choppy strides could also lead to a lack of full extension on that back leg, which means you're not getting the most of your stride.
Lance hit it on the mark w/the torso being out in front.
Here's a little stuff from Defranco.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jI01s1sgGJE&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ASntxHpP18&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKXcduhMdQU&feature=relmfu
IDK if this would help that much, b/c I don't know what your 40 looks like
Please correct me if I'm wrong about anything.
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another thing to add to the short choppy steps.. in the end, it just takes more time to turnover your legs in the first 10 yards.. if you are getting in 6-7 short choppy steps vs 5 hard steps, 6-7 steps is just going to be slower based on the time it takes for those additional strides.. i always look for people to take 5 strides in 10 yards.
edit: you can't do that by reaching though, so it comes through just trying to take harder strides in that initial accel and getting stronger.. most people won't be able to hit 5 strides right off the bat, most people will be ~6+.
pc
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i've been focusing on 10m sprints for the last month and this is what I've found that step 1 out of the blocks should be long without over reaching then just use a natural step progression from there...if the first step is long (from being able to achieve triple ext/full hip ext etc) then you shouldn't just move into choppy strides...if you start with them then you're probably more likely to use them more during the 10m though maybe
i'm at about 6 1/2 steps for my 10m, hey i'm a tiny 5'6", and naturally have a short stride unfortunately
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Thanks for the replies.
The Defranco videos were a big help. I think a big problem I had was my stance. I had learned to get as close to the line as possible, so I think my shin angle was messed up. My butt was also higher in the air then what DeFranco recommends. My stance was probably too scrunched.
There's so many difeent ways they are coaching the 40 out there that all the information has confused me and screwed me up.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH9I22h5BIw
30 m sprint from today, what do you think i should do to improve acceleration?
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your 1st goes up instead of forward which tells me your very quad dominant and you can't achieve proper triple extension and utilise the hips/glutes - this is turn means you're not low at any point like you should be, you shouldn't be totally upright until 20 - maybe 25m at the earliest
check out those defranco vids
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The thing is see, besides that, is that Nightfly is letting his legs trail a lot behind him. He should do the heel-to-butt movement/cycling and engage the hip flexors more for better femoral control and power application in the stride he's about to take. They work hand in hand, providing better posture.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH9I22h5BIw
30 m sprint from today, what do you think i should do to improve acceleration?
that was actually not bad at all for someone who hasnt sprinted competitively or worked extensively on it. If you have access to a sled that will help you a ton, even a tire, etc., but doing short sprints with it will help get your body in the correct positions for acceleration without much thought to it. Kelly put some good complex recomendations with it up above.
If you want to take the time to learn the 3 pt stance it can help, but its going to take some time and a lot of practice to get it down to the point youre actually benefiting from it.
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What about uphill sprints?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNSnrCTmOVM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvMxa43QZxA
Tried to adjust the start and acceleration. What do you think?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH9I22h5BIw
30 m sprint from today, what do you think i should do to improve acceleration?
Purchase some starting blocks, a start clapper & some decent sprint spikes. I recommend the Gill Fusion Blocks.
Strength is an extremely important component because you have to overcome the inertia of the body.
Hit the posterior chain, glutes & quads. The calves/shins can provide an additional 20% to 25% of the power needed for an explosive start. Along with max strength, increase elastic strength. Elasticity is under appreciated for a good start.
Acceleration begins with the arms. It is clear that explosive leg movements are predetermined by explosive arm movements.
Run bunches of 10 - 40m accelerations.
Initial acceleration is determined by stride length (not stride rate). "Don't spin your wheels". (Having said that I'm torn on Ben Johnson's start in Seoul '88). Probably the greatest start in history.
Practice relaxation technique. The more muscle relaxed, the greater the muscle contraction.
As you went by the camera, you didn't seem to have very good knee lift (maybe shutting down/stopping?.), I downloaded it & put it in slo-mo. Increase strength particularly in the core/hip flexors to improve this.
Don't wear full tights.
A few good links:
Original Link: http://maximum-maximorum.com/2009/02/13/strength-qualities-of-the-100m-sprinter/
Original Link: http://maximum-maximorum.com/2008/12/01/speed-training-football-speed-acceleration/
Original Link: http://maximum-maximorum.com/2010/07/29/sprinting-and-the-muscle-tendon-complex-mtc/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE7-JOs3VFE
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^^
Good advice
except for the blocks and sprint spikes advice. Unless he is sprinting competitively there is absolutely no need to do that.
Just use a 3 pt stance to start.
Also the hill sprints/sled sprints to "learn" the correct body position for acceleration are also good
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Even bounding (both 1-leg and two legs on the hill could be helpful (for both jumping and sprinting)).
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I have spikes, in the second and third vid i have them on. Also blocks i think i can borough them.
Thanks for the recommendations and vids.
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I have spikes, in the second and third vid i have them on. Also blocks i think i can borough them.
Thanks for the recommendations and vids.
ok yea obviously if you have them, use them but I was just saying there is no need to go out and get them if you don't...
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Just use a 3 pt stance to start.
You have a good point.
Allan Wells running in the second semi-final heat (Lane 5) & final (Lane 3).
Starting blocks overrated?.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGN0KKxw_zo
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Just use a 3 pt stance to start.
You have a good point.
Allan Wells running in the second semi-final heat (Lane 5) & final (Lane 3).
Starting blocks overrated?.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGN0KKxw_zo
wow that was impressive
Ha, I guess I assume that blocks do help I was just saying that if he wasn't competing in t&f there is no need to get blocks
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How are these guys so fast with hardly any muscle mass to speak of. Is it soley based on their reactive abiltiy and leg and tendon lengths? I can see how they would have good top speed after 50meters or so....but what about the first 50?
They have to be running slower 40 times compared to NFL defensive backs who pack a good amount of muscle on them. Am I right?
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Training methods were a lot different back then in the 70's. Sprinters didn't lift to the same extent they do now. Not sure on their 30 m times but if you do some digging you could probably dig up some numbers by guys like Wells.
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How are these guys so fast with hardly any muscle mass to speak of. Is it soley based on their reactive abiltiy and leg and tendon lengths? I can see how they would have good top speed after 50meters or so....but what about the first 50?
They have to be running slower 40 times compared to NFL defensive backs who pack a good amount of muscle on them. Am I right?
The fastest NFL guys might get close over short distances, but comparing NFL times and sprint times is a bit difficult because the timing is so different. Track times the clock starts and the athlete has to react (adds 0.1-0.2s) whereas for NFL combine times the clock is started by someone who pushes a button when he sees the athlete set off (removes 0.2-0.3 seconds).
Wells was 6'0 190lbs which isn't really that skinny. I think he was pretty strong over short distances too so he was probably pretty strong.
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How are these guys so fast with hardly any muscle mass to speak of. Is it soley based on their reactive abiltiy and leg and tendon lengths? I can see how they would have good top speed after 50meters or so....but what about the first 50?
They have to be running slower 40 times compared to NFL defensive backs who pack a good amount of muscle on them. Am I right?
The fastest NFL guys might get close over short distances, but comparing NFL times and sprint times is a bit difficult impossible and/or a complete joke because the timing is so different. Track times the clock starts and the athlete has to react (adds 0.1-0.2s) whereas for NFL combine times the clock is started by someone who pushes a button when he sees the athlete set off (removes 0.2-0.3 seconds).
Wells was 6'0 190lbs which isn't really that skinny. I think he was pretty strong over short distances too so he was probably pretty strong.
Fixed.
Also: Wells was very fast. Therefore, he was very strong in the way he needed to be strong. The end.
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Fixed.
Also: Wells was very fast. Therefore, he was very strong in the way he needed to be strong. The end.
Haha yeah.
Wells was insanely fast. 10.11 legal 10.0 wind assisted.