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Performance Area => Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion => Topic started by: PointerRyan on April 09, 2012, 07:57:23 pm
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KHey guys just realised i actually take 3 and a half hours to complete my workout which borists of warm up, activation, plyos, weight lifting, stretching. About 30minutes for warm up, activation, and 4 sets of quick 20m sprintp. 30to 45 minutes of plyos. An hour and half of lower body work, normally lasts an hour 45minutes, 30minutes of stretching. I'm starting to think that i'm spending too much time somewhere. Is my routine too long? Whats the average workout duration with a template similiar to this, with plyos before weights in this forum? Thanks
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When I do plyos, my warm-up is about 10 minutes long, then the plyos themselves are for about half an hour and then I cool down and stretch for 15 minutes. That's it.
10+30+15 = 55 minutes.
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That is a fucking long workout lol.
I'm sure you can get adequate post workout stretching in less than 30 minutes... What do you do? Like 3 sets of 30 seconds for each muscle?
Lower body lifting for a hour and 45 minutes is very long.
This is all just my opinion.
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Workout duration is something that is very much so determined by training advancement, number of exercises and volume.
In your case I would assume that your exercise selection is not adequate. From what I read into your post you are trying to do too much in one session. For a beginner that is a very bad approach since you will end up doing lots of things worse.
Doing plyos before weights is fine, but you should at most do 1-2 plyometric exercises and 1-2 lower body exercises. I would even say that you should not necessarily do more than 3 lower body exercises per session and I would probably opt for 1 plyometric exercise, squats and then either deadlift/powerclean or some snatch variation.
It is also not necessary to do 30 minutes of warming up, activation and sprints. Depending on temperature 5-15 minutes general warm-up (which is supposed to have an activating effect in the first place) is fine. You would then warm-up each exercise/lift seperately anyways. If you only need stretching to maintain your flexibility, you do not need to invest more than 10 minutes into it. Doing exercises over full ROM is going to preserve the flexibility that you need for your sport (unless you are a dancer or something). So you can even consider skipping it entirely.
10 (warmup) + 30 (1 plyo exercise) + 60 (squats and 1 pulling exercise) + 10 (stretching, optional) = 1 h 50 min (or 1 h 40 min without stretching).
I had lots of really, really long gym sessions. They become necessary early enough, but right now 2 h is, IMO, the top limit you should need to finish your workout. If you still need longer, something is wrong with your training plan.
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I don't know about you guys, but I don't count the warm up and stretching afterwards as my workout. I think if the actual lifting portion takes about 1hr 15min... that's okay. It could just be that you like to take very long rest times like I used to (6-8min rests between sets of squats). In fact, I think Kingfish used to take (maybe still does?) about 12-15min rest between sets of squats
:ibsquatting:
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Lol raptor i guess my weights take up too much time. D4, i do the mobility kinda stretch , in the same stance , 3 different position, about close to a minute hold each position. From that cross fitness guy. Well steven i do slightly above parallel was thinking of changing to full or at least parallel and below since i'm still not flexible enough. Hmm i actually do squats, lunges, rdl, lying leg his raises , some twisting thing for oblique.last is calf raises. I dont take more than 3 minutes. Beyond 4 minutes is rare. So steven you suggest i can take lunges away, me continue targeting about 25 total reps for squats?you can check my journal for my plyos and lower body. Stretching i donot write it down but yeah 20to30minutes. Even so an hour 30minutes is minimum for lower. Plyos i did it in an hour including warm up. Btw i take 20to30minutes for squats including warm up set.20minutes for lunges including a warm up set.normal?
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Well steven i do slightly above parallel was thinking of changing to full or at least parallel and below since i'm still not flexible enough. Hmm i actually do squats, lunges, rdl, lying leg his raises , some twisting thing for oblique.last is calf raises. I dont take more than 3 minutes. Beyond 4 minutes is rare. So steven you suggest i can take lunges away, me continue targeting about 25 total reps for squats?you can check my journal for my plyos and lower body. Stretching i donot write it down but yeah 20to30minutes. Even so an hour 30minutes is minimum for lower. Plyos i did it in an hour including warm up. Btw i take 20to30minutes for squats including warm up set.20minutes for lunges including a warm up set.normal?
Then it is as bad as I thought it would be. My advice:
1. Learn proper exercise execution
- if you have not read about how to do EACH exercise and evaluated/improved your technique accordingly, you are probably doing it wrong.
- if you squat above parallel the problem is technique, not flexibility (it very, very rarely is) => adjust your stance, post video etc.
2. Adjust exercise selection as I pointed out
- squats => 3 sets with 5 reps works best. Period. More than that and it complicates recovery a lot. Not necessary.
- 1-2 plyo exercises (refer to Lance Q&A, he discussed some good stuff)
- RDL is fine for later, right now I would advise to do full deadlifts for 1 set of 5 reps
- do an explosive lift as well (for a couple of triples or doubles)
- rotate exercises: always squat, alternate deadlift with explosive lift, do only one plyo exercise before weights
3. Get PRs every time
- self-explanatory. If you do not PR nearly every time for months, you are doing something wrong.
4. Pause times
- if you do what I advised your work-out will get substantially shorter. Some of that time you will need to invest in longer breaks between sets. The rule of thumb is this: if you need more time to get the scheduled PR, you take that time. Quality over quantity.
Btw., if you are a one-legged jumper you might want to alternate squats with lunges. But I do not know if that actually works better, ask someone that does.
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Well sorry actually meant i dont have the flexibility to go full. The reason i go above parallel slightly is cause i probably progressed too fast in the past, hurting my range and thats why i'm doing above parallel. I guess i should cut down the weight?how much you recommend?so really just 15reps ? Hmm explosive lifts like what you recommend?also plyos from lance performance blog you mean? Man so basically just 1set of each variation of the boundings yeah? If thats not it there's lots of topic in andrew and lance q and a not sure which you talking about. Also how may sets and reps for lunges and explosive lifts?
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Well sorry actually meant i dont have the flexibility to go full. The reason i go above parallel slightly is cause i probably progressed too fast in the past, hurting my range and thats why i'm doing above parallel. I guess i should cut down the weight?how much you recommend?so really just 15reps ? Hmm explosive lifts like what you recommend?also plyos from lance performance blog you mean? Man so basically just 1set of each variation of the boundings yeah? If thats not it there's lots of topic in andrew and lance q and a not sure which you talking about. Also how may sets and reps for lunges and explosive lifts?
I don't quite understand everything you said there, but I am trying...
If you need to take weight off to make a proper squat, you obviously have to do it. How much? As much as necessary.
Yes, 3 sets of 5 reps (=15 work reps total) is optimal, more is wasted energy for you at this point in time.
I generally recommend either the powerclean or the powersnatch as explosive exercises for jump training. I believe the powerclean would right now be a proper choice for you. Remember what I wrote under 1) though, you need to do this, you can't just skip the learning part or cut it short. Buy Starting Strength 3rd Edition or any kind of book/resource that explains the lifts in some detail. You cannot train effectively without a basic understanding of the lifts. Reading recommended book and following the instructions is one of the easiest ways to gain an understanding of lifting weights.
Regarding plyos, you could do boundings and altitude drops (depth drops). Set and rep schemes are in Lance's Q&A. I am not going there to find it for you. I am sure you are capable of that yourself.
Do 5 triples with the powerclean. 3 sets of 5 with the lunges (per leg, obviously).
Again, do not expect anyone to get to you and present things on a silver tablet. Everyone here is quite willing to help, but some of it you need to take care of yourself. Go and learn.
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For the mother fucking third time. Fuck you phone.gosh. Anyways i'll cut it short . I meant i'm not flexible enough for atg squats. Also , i'm guessing 2to 4 minutes rest for squats, powercleans. And deadlifts? By the looks of it i'm suppose to drop my me jumping completely? Is it alright to rest 30seconds between legs, for lunges? I'm aiming two leg jump as my priority, but i'm slowly working my single leg jumping, thats why i do lunges. I'm lifting twice per week. Thats enough frequency?Do i stick to the routine you suggested, or maybe add lunges as a lift every workout and not alternate it with squats?also whats the reason for doing deadlifts instead of rdl, which i've been doing since it targets my pchain more specifically and would help with hip driving my squats, right?and only a set? And not expecting to be spoon fed but just to reconfirm you're talking about andrew and lance q and a section right? Cheers and thanks again
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For the mother fucking third time. Fuck you phone.gosh. Anyways i'll cut it short . I meant i'm not flexible enough for atg squats. Also , i'm guessing 2to 4 minutes rest for squats, powercleans. And deadlifts? By the looks of it i'm suppose to drop my me jumping completely? Is it alright to rest 30seconds between legs, for lunges? I'm aiming two leg jump as my priority, but i'm slowly working my single leg jumping, thats why i do lunges. I'm lifting twice per week. Thats enough frequency?Do i stick to the routine you suggested, or maybe add lunges as a lift every workout and not alternate it with squats?also whats the reason for doing deadlifts instead of rdl, which i've been doing since it targets my pchain more specifically and would help with hip driving my squats, right?and only a set? And not expecting to be spoon fed but just to reconfirm you're talking about andrew and lance q and a section right? Cheers and thanks again
Yes, I am talking about that Q&A. Deadlifts are nearly the same as RDL, except longer ROM and no stretch reflex. Due to longer ROM they are a more "complete" exercise, RDL's are auxiliary. One set is enough, more is wasting your time. Twice per week is fine, you should not drop the jumping, but not overdo it either. You are probably flexible enough to do squats below parallel, you just need to learn correct technique. I already wrote out exact recommendations for rest times. No way to be more precise than that. Find out about the lunges / ask someone that knows single leg jumping. Once per week squatting is not enough. If you have to do lunges, do them in addition to squats. Always squat.
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Right k man. Right will do that. So well . I remember someone on another topic advising 50to75 ground contacts for plyos. What you think about that? Hmm i dont know man even my own bodyweight my lower back still will round a little if i do a full squat. Well doctor said i was stiff, particularly my back a year ago when i went to check up my tailbone issue. But well i'll check with my form again. And k man . Oh btw, about the 15reps thing, what should my rep ranges be? If i keep adding weight i might be down to 4 reps.that fine? Or maybe i can go with a 5to6or7 concept, one workout doing heavy with 5, the other more volume with 6or 7 of 3 reps?thanks again
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Right k man. Right will do that. So well . I remember someone on another topic advising 50to75 ground contacts for plyos. What you think about that? Hmm i dont know man even my own bodyweight my lower back still will round a little if i do a full squat. Well doctor said i was stiff, particularly my back a year ago when i went to check up my tailbone issue. But well i'll check with my form again. And k man . Oh btw, about the 15reps thing, what should my rep ranges be? If i keep adding weight i might be down to 4 reps.that fine? Or maybe i can go with a 5to6or7 concept, one workout doing heavy with 5, the other more volume with 6or 7 of 3 reps?thanks again
Ground contacts does not matter as much as intensity and context. I am sure you will find good guidelines in the Q&A, which you will now go and read before you write another post, right? Read the damn book I cited regarding your form as well. Also, I said 5 reps of 3 sets is optimal in my experience. Nowhere is there mentioned something about going down to 4 or up to 7 reps, right?
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Yeah i will. But regarding the 5reps 3sets, meant to say that i could increase the weight every workout, but there ought to be a point that i can't hit 5 reps, and would probably hit 4 reps. So my question was actually which way should i approach it to progress when i come to that stage? The reason i asked for a rep range. Since i could either just stick to the 4 reps with the increase in weight, or use the same weight i used in the previous workout, and try hit 6reps. If you get where i'm coming from?
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General rule of thumb:
If your workout prescribes 5 reps, and you can only hit 4, do the same weight for the next workouts until you can manage 5 reps. Then increase the weight for the subsequent workout and repeat the process.
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Ah so basically a strict 5 reps yeah? Well thanks btw
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Yep. Even simpler:
Did you hit all five reps?
IF YES: Increase weight by 5lbs next workout. Attempt 5 reps.
IF NO: Do not increase weight by 5lbs next workout. Attempt 5 reps.
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Haha yeah got that. So i'm guessing there's no point doing an extra set to accommodate for not being able to hit 5 for 3?
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I am going to emphasize this again, because it might have been lost somewhere... Yes, you will eventually not be able to get to 5 reps. Dreyth told you what can be done then. But if that happens to you as early as the next 2-3 months, you are doing things wrong. There is NO reason why you should get stuck so early, so get this out of your head right away. Getting only 4 reps is not even acceptable right now. Make sure (through, diet, sleep, recovery, focus, etc.) that you always get all the reps.
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I am going to emphasize this again, because it might have been lost somewhere... Yes, you will eventually not be able to get to 5 reps. Dreyth told you what can be done then. But if that happens to you as early as the next 2-3 months, you are doing things wrong. There is NO reason why you should get stuck so early, so get this out of your head right away. Getting only 4 reps is not even acceptable right now. Make sure (through, diet, sleep, recovery, focus, etc.) that you always get all the reps.
right kay man a strict 5 reps, of 3sets got it. so do this routine for 2-3months and continue if it still works yeah?
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If it still works, continue.
When you get stuck post back and we'll help you break through any plateaus.
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I can't remember the last time a user had soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo (you get the point) many questions. Seriously. Not even I years ago.
PointerRyan: So you need protein to grow, right?
Random user: Yeah
PointerRyan: Yeah but is the spoon material important?
Random user: Nope
PointerRyan: OK, got it, but if the spoon is made of metal, could it disturbe the balance of metals in the bloodstream?
Random user: Nah, don't worry about it
PointerRyan: OK but the timing could be wrong, so ... should I take protein before or after the workout?
Random user: Take it around the time of the workout
PointerRyan: Right, but ...
duh...
I'm tired of writing this...
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I can't remember the last time a user had soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo (you get the point) many questions. Seriously. Not even I years ago.
PointerRyan: So you need protein to grow, right?
Random user: Yeah
PointerRyan: Yeah but is the spoon material important?
Random user: Nope
PointerRyan: OK, got it, but if the spoon is made of metal, could it disturbe the balance of metals in the bloodstream?
Random user: Nah, don't worry about it
PointerRyan: OK but the timing could be wrong, so ... should I take protein before or after the workout?
Random user: Take it around the time of the workout
PointerRyan: Right, but ...
duh...
I'm tired of writing this...
Better that he asks good questions rather than winging it on his own. Imo, anyway. : P
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yea it's not like he's overanalyzing like I used to do back in the day... i think raptor is more known for that, simply because i didn't post my over analyses as much :P
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Yeah I'm not "bothered" or anything like that... if I have a problem with what he writes, I can just ignore it and move on. It's great that he's passionate about it and wants to know everything, but at his current level he would be better served working his ass out and really focusing on the basics.
Sometimes the more you know the more that additional information can deter you off the right path, because you're anxious to "try something new, maybe this works better".
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Yeah I'm not "bothered" or anything like that... if I have a problem with what he writes, I can just ignore it and move on. It's great that he's passionate about it and wants to know everything, but at his current level he would be better served working his ass out and really focusing on the basics.
Sometimes the more you know the more that additional information can deter you off the right path, because you're anxious to "try something new, maybe this works better".
right sorry man bout the tonnes of questions. tried my best to limit it, but well, not like i'm already not working my ass from, just that i go by " train wise, train hard" , if you get what i mean.
but yeah noted man, thanks for telling:)
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Cool.
And remember - keep it simple and progress on that simple workout. Get the most bang for the buck exercises and keep on improving them. End of story.
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Raptor has a good point. It's good that people are so willing to help thogh. I notice that whenever someone asks a question about their routine, people jump on it right away. THis is good.
To reduce the number of questions, I would say just follow instincts. Some of us look at it too analytically. I think the idea of counting reps is unecessary. Grount contacts? Doesn't matter. Workout ountil your performance deproves (no it's not a real word but it should be i think).
I've done 1 set of bounding in a workout (well two total because I switched legs), and saw an improvement the next workout. Plyos are not only about physiological changes in tissue, but also neurological changes. So it doesn't take much.
Trying to achieve a 5th rep, or a 70th ground contact could be detrimental to performance. For example, if you are at rep 50, and notice that you are jumping slower, you're not going to see any additional benefit in your explosiveness from doing those reps unless they come from collagen restructiring and increasing thickness of tendons, i.e. physiological changes. They also will train your nervous system differently since they will be slower. Just imagine crossfit box jumps.
Striving for a 5th rep, will result in a very slow grinding rep, and it may make you stronger, but it may have no greater effect than a faster set of 4 reps without the extra 5th, nd may reinforce a slow motor pattern. Sometimes there is a threshold in a workout for the gains, it isn't all dose dependent. But if you just want strength, it probably will help. FOr hypertrophy, it will most probably help too.
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I've done 1 set of bounding in a workout (well two total because I switched legs), and saw an improvement the next workout. Plyos are not only about physiological changes in tissue, but also neurological changes. So it doesn't take much.
Trying to achieve a 5th rep, or a 70th ground contact could be detrimental to performance. For example, if you are at rep 50, and notice that you are jumping slower, you're not going to see any additional benefit in your explosiveness from doing those reps unless they come from collagen restructiring and increasing thickness of tendons, i.e. physiological changes. They also will train your nervous system differently since they will be slower. Just imagine crossfit box jumps.
Striving for a 5th rep, will result in a very slow grinding rep, and it may make you stronger, but it may have no greater effect than a faster set of 4 reps without the extra 5th, nd may reinforce a slow motor pattern. Sometimes there is a threshold in a workout for the gains, it isn't all dose dependent. But if you just want strength, it probably will help. FOr hypertrophy, it will most probably help too.
I agree, however the total ground contacts was my advice to him. I told him 50-75 I believe. He was doing ME jumps and MR half tucks and stiff leg ankle hops, so besides the ME jumps, the intensity wasn't all that high. That's not to say I recommend getting to whatever many reps with shitty form.
My idea was that he needs to get some volume in now, to get more efficient in fundamental running and jumping drills/exercises. Sometimes you just need to get volume in, even if it's submaximal(so not grinding out crappy ME reps under fatigue).
But yeah, I agree, drop offs aren't good, and things should be cut off after marginal losses in speed/power.
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Raptor has a good point. It's good that people are so willing to help thogh. I notice that whenever someone asks a question about their routine, people jump on it right away. THis is good.
To reduce the number of questions, I would say just follow instincts. Some of us look at it too analytically. I think the idea of counting reps is unecessary. Grount contacts? Doesn't matter. Workout ountil your performance deproves (no it's not a real word but it should be i think).
I've done 1 set of bounding in a workout (well two total because I switched legs), and saw an improvement the next workout. Plyos are not only about physiological changes in tissue, but also neurological changes. So it doesn't take much.
Trying to achieve a 5th rep, or a 70th ground contact could be detrimental to performance. For example, if you are at rep 50, and notice that you are jumping slower, you're not going to see any additional benefit in your explosiveness from doing those reps unless they come from collagen restructiring and increasing thickness of tendons, i.e. physiological changes. They also will train your nervous system differently since they will be slower. Just imagine crossfit box jumps.
Striving for a 5th rep, will result in a very slow grinding rep, and it may make you stronger, but it may have no greater effect than a faster set of 4 reps without the extra 5th, nd may reinforce a slow motor pattern. Sometimes there is a threshold in a workout for the gains, it isn't all dose dependent. But if you just want strength, it probably will help. FOr hypertrophy, it will most probably help too.
ah man yeah makes sense. but man, abotu what you say about a faster set of 4 than a set striving for 5reps, so if thats the case, if i could get 4reps fast, but wanna aim for 5reps, would taking a few deep breathes, like 5-10seconds while the bar is still on my back, and do another rep be all good? wouldnt be taking away the effectiveness of the set up yeah?
Cool.
And remember - keep it simple and progress on that simple workout. Get the most bang for the buck exercises and keep on improving them. End of story.
haha bang for the buck, yeah wil ldo that man thanks again.
I've done 1 set of bounding in a workout (well two total because I switched legs), and saw an improvement the next workout. Plyos are not only about physiological changes in tissue, but also neurological changes. So it doesn't take much.
Trying to achieve a 5th rep, or a 70th ground contact could be detrimental to performance. For example, if you are at rep 50, and notice that you are jumping slower, you're not going to see any additional benefit in your explosiveness from doing those reps unless they come from collagen restructiring and increasing thickness of tendons, i.e. physiological changes. They also will train your nervous system differently since they will be slower. Just imagine crossfit box jumps.
Striving for a 5th rep, will result in a very slow grinding rep, and it may make you stronger, but it may have no greater effect than a faster set of 4 reps without the extra 5th, nd may reinforce a slow motor pattern. Sometimes there is a threshold in a workout for the gains, it isn't all dose dependent. But if you just want strength, it probably will help. FOr hypertrophy, it will most probably help too.
I agree, however the total ground contacts was my advice to him. I told him 50-75 I believe. He was doing ME jumps and MR half tucks and stiff leg ankle hops, so besides the ME jumps, the intensity wasn't all that high. That's not to say I recommend getting to whatever many reps with shitty form.
My idea was that he needs to get some volume in now, to get more efficient in fundamental running and jumping drills/exercises. Sometimes you just need to get volume in, even if it's submaximal(so not grinding out crappy ME reps under fatigue).
But yeah, I agree, drop offs aren't good, and things should be cut off after marginal losses in speed/power.
ah you were the one lol. haha man really gotta learn ot focus and work on quality. jeez