Adarq.org
Performance Area => Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion => Topic started by: bball2020 on March 10, 2011, 08:42:31 pm
-
Obviously, the dunking world is full of genetic freaks who can dunk without touching a squat rack in their lives. Who are some of the best examples of the opposite- guys who have become extremely strong, and as a result, or at the same time, developed great VJ or RVJ? Talking about the guys that you can definitely say "they are damn strong" and they can jump freaking high(and there is a strong correlation).
My few:
KINGFISH : Dude can fly and squats a ton
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yK6cuwMWoBI
RIP
the short guy can also fly and squats a lot
Not trying to start a pro squat only freaking CoolCol J thread, but for the average "white boy" developing a big time squat can be essential to developing some serious ups, not to mention it really is the most trainable essential part of Vertical jumps.
-
http://www.adarq.org/forum/strength-power-reactivity-speed-discussion/lead-by-example/msg37833/#msg37833
I don't squat "a ton", but as my squat progressed so did my jumps. In the first video where i was jumping under or around 30 inches off 1 leg and 20 inches off two legs, my squat was 0.7x or something like that and now i squat 1.77x and am around 40 inches both off 1 leg and off 2. Also i went from deadlifting 0.6x to 2x+
But yeah definitely squatting/strength is essential in jumping while not being a genetic freak :)
-
Not trying to start a pro squat only freaking CoolCol J thread, but for the average "white boy" developing a big time squat can be essential to developing some serious ups, not to mention it really is the most trainable essential part of Vertical jumps.
CCJ's argument was: just improve squat (and eventually jump)
^^ That's why his argument sucks.. He literally was telling people to just focus on squatting for months at a time without putting in considerable jump-work and obviously no reactive work.. His formula was "just squat and jump". That's why his argument is stupid.
I've said many times lately on this forum, I believe all of us should be shooting for 3-3.5xBW half squat goals, so i'm all for building an enormous squat.. but i'm also for staying very fit, eating right, not "dirty bulking" (gaining unnecessary weight), incorporating reactive work ("plyo"), strengthening the calfs directly, and getting in a good amount of max effort jumping.. so unlike CCJ, I cover more bases.. his argument leads people to get out of shape & gain excess weight which increases injury risk.
peace & ya add Nightfly to that list for sure.
-
Not trying to start a pro squat only freaking CoolCol J thread, but for the average "white boy" developing a big time squat can be essential to developing some serious ups, not to mention it really is the most trainable essential part of Vertical jumps.
CCJ's argument was: just improve squat (and eventually jump)
^^ That's why his argument sucks.. He literally was telling people to just focus on squatting for months at a time without putting in considerable jump-work and obviously no reactive work.. His formula was "just squat and jump". That's why his argument is stupid.
I've said many times lately on this forum, I believe all of us should be shooting for 3-3.5xBW half squat goals, so i'm all for building an enormous squat.. but i'm also for staying very fit, eating right, not "dirty bulking" (gaining unnecessary weight), incorporating reactive work ("plyo"), strengthening the calfs directly, and getting in a good amount of max effort jumping.. so unlike CCJ, I cover more bases.. his argument leads people to get out of shape & gain excess weight which increases injury risk.
peace & ya add Nightfly to that list for sure.
Yes but you can probably only improve so much without weight gain/muscle gain, so neurally. Then you kind of need to gain weight in the right places to get your squat up and to improve on your ratio. It would be great if you were able to squat more and more without muscle gain, but that's pretty much impossible.
It's interesting, but I haven't jumped in about 2 months and I go in the park and I jump very high off one leg, just with strength training. Sure, I have been doing some depth jumps lately but no one-leg jumping in months. However, that movement pattern is ingrained since years ago.
-
Yes but you can probably only improve so much without weight gain/muscle gain, so neurally. Then you kind of need to gain weight in the right places to get your squat up and to improve on your ratio. It would be great if you were able to squat more and more without muscle gain, but that's pretty much impossible.
Source? Or are we just going to give our opinion on things but make statements as if they were facts.
-
@Raptor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Uuw7Kyyi9M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlYA_Bx2Pao
he gained only 3kg bw in those 10 months.
Also look at Boevski and other light oly lifters that squat insanely high weights while being really light. Or look at Chris Hickson with his insane deadlifts...
-
Not trying to start a pro squat only freaking CoolCol J thread, but for the average "white boy" developing a big time squat can be essential to developing some serious ups, not to mention it really is the most trainable essential part of Vertical jumps.
CCJ's argument was: just improve squat (and eventually jump)
^^ That's why his argument sucks.. He literally was telling people to just focus on squatting for months at a time without putting in considerable jump-work and obviously no reactive work.. His formula was "just squat and jump". That's why his argument is stupid.
I've said many times lately on this forum, I believe all of us should be shooting for 3-3.5xBW half squat goals, so i'm all for building an enormous squat.. but i'm also for staying very fit, eating right, not "dirty bulking" (gaining unnecessary weight), incorporating reactive work ("plyo"), strengthening the calfs directly, and getting in a good amount of max effort jumping.. so unlike CCJ, I cover more bases.. his argument leads people to get out of shape & gain excess weight which increases injury risk.
peace & ya add Nightfly to that list for sure.
Yes but you can probably only improve so much without weight gain/muscle gain, so neurally. Then you kind of need to gain weight in the right places to get your squat up and to improve on your ratio. It would be great if you were able to squat more and more without muscle gain, but that's pretty much impossible.
i know one thing that is for certain, it is impossible to those who think it is impossible.
if you are able to squat more, at the same weight, after getting poked with an adrenaline shot, then surely you can keep improving squat without gaining weight. no one on this forum is anywhere near needing to put on weight to improve their squat strength, especially including yourself.
some of the stuff i see on here lately is ridiculous. it's like none of the stuff is resonating, people are still giving credence to PED's and "weight gain".. sure if you want to gain weight go ahead, but everyone on this forum is capable of making pretty big gains at their current weight.
-
i know one thing that is for certain, it is impossible to those who think it is impossible.
if you are able to squat more, at the same weight, after getting poked with an adrenaline shot, then surely you can keep improving squat without gaining weight. no one on this forum is anywhere near needing to put on weight to improve their squat strength, especially including yourself.
some of the stuff i see on here lately is ridiculous. it's like none of the stuff is resonating, people are still giving credence to PED's and "weight gain".. sure if you want to gain weight go ahead, but everyone on this forum is capable of making pretty big gains at their current weight.
I'll get all Jay Schroeder-esque on Adarq
RE Size and strength: "The smallest most powerful athlete wins"
RE PED's and Adarq's take on hard work: "The will to prepare must be greater than the will for results"
So maybe Jay and Adarq are sippin the same kool-aid
As far as PED's I am definitely as anti PED as Adarq, but I would not advocate their use. I understand their use at the highest levels. I do not see any real solution besides having parents raise their kids to have higher moral standards, and appreciate the journey that is the hard work towards your goals. Unfortunately live in America and everyone wants the quick fix and insta results so we would have to completely change our mass culture. I mean shit, 5 hour energy has a commercial where a guy doesn;t have time or energy to make a cup of coffee. How lazy are we? Utill we get a higher moral (not religious) standard and people learn the value of hard work and appreciation of the return on their efforts then people will always be willing to cheat.
So lets make an Adarq pledge: We will raise our kids (in the future) to have a high moral standard, understand and appreciate the importance of hard work.
I agree with Adarq's sentiment about strength, power, and weight gain. I prefer to keep working max strength and power stuff. Once a plateau is hit then move into hypertrophy work.
A 3-3.5xBW squat is a bit high. I would say that 2.5-3.0 is a better range when considering the goal of training for performance. The move from 3-3.5 requires, IMO, too much specificity in training. For a 200lb athlete you are talking a 700 squat. Getting to 700 would require taking too much time away from sport preparation and it would require too high of inroads into recovery ability. Essentially you would need to begin training like a PLer and not an athlete.
-
Well Andrew refers to 3-3.5 half squat or higher than parallel, jump specific squat, not a full squat.
But yeah, I agree that you need/can train neurally a lot. The question is - are you going to improve as much and as quick, in terms of relative strength, as a guy who also gains a little muscle?
You could also go and build a little muscle and increase your squat quickly and then cut down on the calories and start losing weight, maybe fat maybe muscle, but now you're going to have a weight that you can use in your squat (a newly established, higher squat 1RM and 5RM) that you can use while cutting down on weight.
So you can be:
180 lbs with a squat of 250
GO TO
190 lbs with a squat of 300
then cut down back to 180 while using the same work reps and trying to maintain that 300 squat and end up being
180 lbs again with a squat of 300
I think that can make your CNS adapt quicker to the load, muscles as well etc, but it's going to take a good planning in terms of training and nutrition to make that happen I suppose. Your body will probably be more inclined to accept that weight as "managable" and will happen quicker than if you were just to stay at 180 and try to improve to 300 on your squat just by neural adaptations alone.
-
Great quote.
"i know one thing that is for certain, it is impossible to those who think it is impossible."
-
It depends on body-fat levels. Someoe with some bodyfat to spare need not worry about gaining weight, it's the toothpicks who starve endlessly who shouldn't be deathly afraid of it. Keep the body-fat low and things work out. Raptors approach is better for people under 8% body-fat and he's exactly right, each cycle of weight results in greater relative strength than would be there had the person stayed weight stable. Even the O lifters in light weight classes cycle their weight. 3-5 kilos up, 3 kilos down etc.
-
It depends on body-fat levels. Someoe with some bodyfat to spare need not worry about gaining weight, it's the toothpicks who starve endlessly who shouldn't be deathly afraid of it. Keep the body-fat low and things work out. Raptors approach is better for people under 8% body-fat and he's exactly right, each cycle of weight results in greater relative strength than would be there had the person stayed weight stable. Even the O lifters in light weight classes cycle their weight. 3-5 kilos up, 3 kilos down etc.
Ah, 8%.....
Would I ever wear a shirt again? I think not! :strong:
-
It depends on body-fat levels. Someoe with some bodyfat to spare need not worry about gaining weight, it's the toothpicks who starve endlessly who shouldn't be deathly afraid of it. Keep the body-fat low and things work out. Raptors approach is better for people under 8% body-fat and he's exactly right, each cycle of weight results in greater relative strength than would be there had the person stayed weight stable. Even the O lifters in light weight classes cycle their weight. 3-5 kilos up, 3 kilos down etc.
^^^
This!
I would also add that this 'critical' bodyfat percentage depends on the person.
I also use raptor's approach ( actually it's your approach Kelly , http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/relativestrengthmyth.html ).
My bodyfat is nowhere near 8% , but it never was too. For me ( given my age and built ) 15% is my 'normal' bodyfat.
What i do is cycle between ~185 and ~200lbs. At my first try beginning bodyfat was ~15% and final ~20%. Even like that cycles still worked , you can see them all well documented in my journals.
Now, after 3 or 4 cycles the last 1,5 years i am at ~197/15% , so this is an extra improvement , the cycles are not identical , every time i reach the bulk peak ( which is the same weight ) i am always a bit stronger and with a bit less bodyfat. In the same way , at the leaning peak i am always relatively stronger than last time.
Here's my PRs log showing it happen:
LEAN:
June 2009 : DLRVJ PR : 33'' , getting consistently wrist(8'') to 10' rim on 2 different gyms , BW ~180.
BULK:
12 October 2009 : SVJ PR : 27'' , BW ~192
23 October 2009 : SVJ PR : 27,5'' , BW ~193
LEAN:
6 January 2010 : SVJ PR : 28,5'' , BW ~186
22 March 2010 : DLRVJ 32,5'' , no PR but i havent jumped above 32'' From June 2009 ( ! ) , BW ~187
BULK:
19 April 2010 : SQUAT PR : 3x264 , MSEM , ~1min rest between reps , BW ~192
27 April 2010 : DLRVJ 33'' , PR tie.
20 May 2010 : MSEM SQUAT PR : 2x1x275 , BW ~194.
6 June 2010 : DLRVJ 33'' , PR tie.
12 June 2010 : DLRVJ PR , 33,5''
15 June 2010 : SQUAT PR : 4x275 , BW ~198.
20 June 2010 : DLRVJ PR , 34''
LEAN:
25 June 2010 : SQUAT PR : 3x297 , BW ~196.
26 July 2010 : SVJ PR : 29'' , DLRVJ PR : 34,5'' , BW ~190
BULK:
Happening now , SVJ ~29, RVJ ~33,5 , BW ~197
-
Great stuff here all around. I love Adarq's attitude. I know there is a little controversy (at least in my mind) between Adarq's desire to remain very lean and still gain a lot of strength while Kellyb has written about the fact that size is often necessary for improvements in strength over time. Adarq, I too feel a lot better while being lean. Maybe I have some research on this site to do, so forgive me if I am asking a question that you have already addressed, but what are some of you eating strategies to remain very lean and still stay strong. Paleo sounds like a great option, and knowing you are a scientist and your talk about being like an animal, I will guess that is how you chow. ???
Also, you posted about an experiment involving plyos with a weight vest in bball players that worked. Do you ever use it?
Thanks.
I am 5'5, 140-145 (I have eating problems clearly) - my best back squat is 300 deep, I have short legs. I have about a 27 inch RVJ and my running vert off of one leg is about 31 at its peak. I have pronation knee valgus issues so perhaps I leak some power. I am OBSESSED with touching rim-then I will worry about dunking. I have always been blessed with endurance traits and never power. Quick feet and fast hands, but never explosive. Anytime my squat goes up my jump does as well like many others. My standing reach is 7'1. I have 6-7 inches to touch rim off one leg. Body weight should definitely be lowered.
Good to be hear.
-
Great stuff here all around. I love Adarq's attitude. I know there is a little controversy (at least in my mind) between Adarq's desire to remain very lean and still gain a lot of strength while Kellyb has written about the fact that size is often necessary for improvements in strength over time.
Adarq, I too feel a lot better while being lean. Maybe I have some research on this site to do, so forgive me if I am asking a question that you have already addressed, but what are some of you eating strategies to remain very lean and still stay strong. Paleo sounds like a great option, and knowing you are a scientist and your talk about being like an animal, I will guess that is how you chow. ???
well, i'm not extremely lean so i wouldn't be the best one to comment, but i personally just try to eat clean for the most part, though i should be eating more green veggies.. my current diet consists mostly of eggs & seeds/nuts, added whey, and then random extra stuff like turkey sandwich, pb sandwich, or something else.. prior to jump sessions i eat lots of bananas to really fill my glycogen stores, if i don't, i feel weaker in my legs.. if you check my journal, you'll see i have a diet listing, don't start from the beginning tho, start at the 'egg diet' or somewhere around there, i was eating a bit bad because i had been sick for so long.. ideally, im on more of a higher protein moderate fat/carb diet, but higher protein/carb the day before dunking.
Also, you posted about an experiment involving plyos with a weight vest in bball players that worked. Do you ever use it?
did i? can you link me? i've used weight vests during warmups (ladder drills with vests) and stuff like that, never used them much for anything else.. they are good for warmups.
Thanks.
I am 5'5, 140-145 (I have eating problems clearly) - my best back squat is 300 deep, I have short legs. I have about a 27 inch RVJ and my running vert off of one leg is about 31 at its peak. I have pronation knee valgus issues so perhaps I leak some power. I am OBSESSED with touching rim-then I will worry about dunking. I have always been blessed with endurance traits and never power. Quick feet and fast hands, but never explosive. Anytime my squat goes up my jump does as well like many others. My standing reach is 7'1. I have 6-7 inches to touch rim off one leg. Body weight should definitely be lowered.
Good to be hear.
thanks man and thanks for sharing, given your height and build, it sounds like you will really need some 'insane relative squat strength' to get that jump way up.. which isn't much of a problem because you're already naturally efficient at that movement given your leverages.. but you're going to really want to improve that squat even more, for a LONG time, while still staying fit/eating good/jumping etc.. if it is correlated like you say, you have plenty of room to continue improving vert directly as squat goes up.
why should bodyweight be lowered? only if you are carrying excess fat above 10-12%, optimally 8% would be good.. but i don't imagine you have much to lose? what do you think your ideal weight would be?
peace
-
Well Andrew refers to 3-3.5 half squat or higher than parallel, jump specific squat, not a full squat.
But yeah, I agree that you need/can train neurally a lot. The question is - are you going to improve as much and as quick, in terms of relative strength, as a guy who also gains a little muscle?
You could also go and build a little muscle and increase your squat quickly and then cut down on the calories and start losing weight, maybe fat maybe muscle, but now you're going to have a weight that you can use in your squat (a newly established, higher squat 1RM and 5RM) that you can use while cutting down on weight.
So you can be:
180 lbs with a squat of 250
GO TO
190 lbs with a squat of 300
then cut down back to 180 while using the same work reps and trying to maintain that 300 squat and end up being
180 lbs again with a squat of 300
I think that can make your CNS adapt quicker to the load, muscles as well etc, but it's going to take a good planning in terms of training and nutrition to make that happen I suppose. Your body will probably be more inclined to accept that weight as "managable" and will happen quicker than if you were just to stay at 180 and try to improve to 300 on your squat just by neural adaptations alone.
i don't recall seeing people successfully do that on forums etc.. most people gain weight then have major issues taking it off while maintaining strength.. as easy as that sounds, it's actually harder for people to gain weight + gain strength then cut that excess fat while maintaining, most everyone seems to have major issues doing so.
i could gain 6+ lb in one day if i carb'd up, so, gaining weight indicates much more than just 10 lb to me, most of us could put on 6 lb in one day just carbing up with glycogen/water retention, that's nothing special..
to me it's easier to stay around your goal weight and work from there.. if you have no goal weight then fine, but if you do, like myself, no point ballooning up as it just becomes too hard to cut back down while maintaining strength due to the intensity/stress of my training.
i'd rather stay at 150 and improve from here, eating too much actually hinders my strength gains as i become even more lethargic, fat, and ogre-like.
-
I wonder why does vag think 15% is "natural" for him at his age, build etc? Who said you need to be at 15%? You could probably improve on that.
-
My squat depends on the amount i eat. If i eat a lot (like when i did Smolov and the time after that) i am much stronger on squats than if i eat "maintenance" (like atm where only my squat sucks).
I don't think it's bad to gain weight if you get much stronger doing so.
-
I wonder why does vag think 15% is "natural" for him at his age, build etc? Who said you need to be at 15%? You could probably improve on that.
Yes , by natural bodyfat i meant how i am built, like giving an estimation of where my body wants to be under 'normal circumstances'.
Some people are naturally lean&ripped , some others are not. I belong in the latter.
I don't need to be at 15% , i need to be as low as i can maintaining strength.
But imo it is important to have a realistic view on your body/abilities. A guy like me freaking out and orienting his training to get to 8% would make a big mistake.
Anyway , were getting way off topic...
-
My body fat is around 10% at the moment. Adarq, if you are 6'1 and want to weight 145, then why do you think at 5'5 I can weight 145 or so and still fly? Is it because I am shorter?
Thanks.
-
i don't recall seeing people successfully do that on forums etc.. most people gain weight then have major issues taking it off while maintaining strength.. as easy as that sounds, it's actually harder for people to gain weight + gain strength then cut that excess fat while maintaining, most everyone seems to have major issues doing so.
Plus if they aren't using any anabolic assistance it's basically pointless to try.
-
I wonder why does vag think 15% is "natural" for him at his age, build etc? Who said you need to be at 15%? You could probably improve on that.
Yes , by natural bodyfat i meant how i am built, like giving an estimation of where my body wants to be under 'normal circumstances'.
Some people are naturally lean&ripped , some others are not. I belong in the latter.
I don't need to be at 15% , i need to be as low as i can maintaining strength.
But imo it is important to have a realistic view on your body/abilities. A guy like me freaking out and orienting his training to get to 8% would make a big mistake.
Anyway , were getting way off topic...
Yeah but - are you doing everything exercise and nutritional-wise to keep it low, and you end up with 15% as being the lowest while maintaining/gaining strength? That's my point - if you could manipulate training/nutrition in such a way that you could get the BF a bit lower while at the same time gaining muscle (muscle that will need more calories and that, in return, will help prevent fat build-up).
-
My body fat is around 10% at the moment. Adarq, if you are 6'1 and want to weight 145, then why do you think at 5'5 I can weight 145 or so and still fly? Is it because I am shorter?
Thanks.
well you could have more lean muscle mass on your frame, and that usually isn't a bad thing.. look at maurice jones drew, he's 5'6 200-210, and he is enormous.. no reason he'd lose any muscle mass, but also no reason he'd try and 'bulk up', he's at his optimal weight.. so you could just have alot more muscle mass naturally relatively, than me... i'm extremely skinny naturally.
pc
-
i don't recall seeing people successfully do that on forums etc.. most people gain weight then have major issues taking it off while maintaining strength.. as easy as that sounds, it's actually harder for people to gain weight + gain strength then cut that excess fat while maintaining, most everyone seems to have major issues doing so.
Plus if they aren't using any anabolic assistance it's basically pointless to try.
well it'd be alot easier with anabolic assistance that's for sure lol.
I wonder why does vag think 15% is "natural" for him at his age, build etc? Who said you need to be at 15%? You could probably improve on that.
Yes , by natural bodyfat i meant how i am built, like giving an estimation of where my body wants to be under 'normal circumstances'.
Some people are naturally lean&ripped , some others are not. I belong in the latter.
I don't need to be at 15% , i need to be as low as i can maintaining strength.
But imo it is important to have a realistic view on your body/abilities. A guy like me freaking out and orienting his training to get to 8% would make a big mistake.
Anyway , were getting way off topic...
same, i'm more of a natural 12+% or so, at 145 lb.. that would be with just eating ok and not lifting.. i definitely don't have "lean genetics" that's for sure.
pc
-
yeah I'm the atypical endomorph. I can get to about 11% (estimate) with low carb eating and cardio. Naturally about 13ish.
I got them big meaty joints and stuff too and I'm very much a strength jumper... not fast. Never be a body builder.
Losing fat and maintaining strength is best done on a low carb approach. Lower the better. Sets you up to use fat for energy preferentially. Read Anabolic Diet by Dr Pisquale for a bit or reasoning. I wager most people struggle with it because they eat pretty conventionally. All based on personal experience......... did Anabolic diet for 18 months and still kinda adhere to the principles.